You Can't Change Your Advanced Class!?!?!

[Mapex]

It's not even that hard to level a class to 50 and gear up for that matter. This isn't FFXI. In my guild alone, almost everyone has a 50 and an alt level 50, both geared enough to do 16 man ops with.

 

People shouldn't be picking a class based on lightsabers or blasters or things like that. They should be looking at the info presented at AC selection. Ranged or Close Combat? Healer, DPS, or Tank? Light, Medium, Heavy Armor?

 

Everything else is aesthetics. If someone chooses a class based on aesthetics, than they will either love the class because they are playing what they really want despite whatever mechanical flaws it has, or they will really hate it because they will be let down that it wasn't exactly what they thought it was going to be.

 

 

Allowing Respecs is just gonna open the door to everyone playing the same AC within the archetype. We will have nothing but Sorcerors, Mercenaries, and Juggernauts (which are already the most played classes for Empire).

 

You realize you just argued against yourself, right? It isn't hard to level to 50...so then why isn't everyone a Merc or Sorc? Because not everyone wants to play one.

 

All a single or limited respec will do is let people who found out at level 30-40 that they hate their AC a chance to rectify their decision from level 10. You don't truly get a feel for your class before that mid-level range and it would suck to put in 2 days played only to find out it was all a waste.

 

Again, this wouldn't be free respecs at your whim. It would be a one time opportunity to switch your AC before level 50 in case you hate the play style you chose.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Mapex

[Playdohqt]

I don't understand you people that want to be able to respec AC"s. Makes absolutely no sense. You know what would happen then? Everyone would be a Tank/Healer/DPS. This is an MMO, you pick a role (ranged dps, melee dps, Healer, Tank whatever it maybe) and thats that. People being too greedy and/or stupid = this thread.

[SandsOfArrakis]

I don't understand you people that want to be able to respec AC"s. Makes absolutely no sense. You know what would happen then? Everyone would be a Tank/Healer/DPS. This is an MMO, you pick a role (ranged dps, melee dps, Healer, Tank whatever it maybe) and thats that. People being too greedy and/or stupid = this thread.

 

I think the main problem are games where multiple specs are allowed. I've played Rift in the past. And there you could have 5 different specs on 1 character. So yeah. You could be tank, DPS or healer all on one character. That's just wrong imo.

 

The game warns you when you choose an advanced class, that the choice is permanent. It even let's you preview your talents and through the Codex informs you about the 2 available advanced classes.

Edited February 9, 2012 by SandsOfArrakis

[Nythain]

Not really against the idea of a one time AC change. No argument for it, but it's not like a one shot chance would kill much. I do understand the argument of not really being able to preview what actual abilities an advance class gets, all you really get is a general idea of the type of attacks, and a preview of the trees which usually mean nothing because you have no idea what any of the abilities they are affecting actually are.

 

As far as time goes, not everyone has the capability to put 10 hours or more into the game every day. A fairly large portion of the SWTOR community i've encountered *in game* (forums excluded) are adults, with lots of adult repsonsibilities. Also, redoing 2 acts of the same story is really effing boring. I hate my character atm, but i'll be damned if i'm gonna play through the exact same thing again so soon after doing it.

[supafreak]

My honest opinion is that they should simply remove the base classes. Pick your advanced class on creation and simply let things roll as they already do - but then there won't be any confusion. You rolled a Guardian, of course you can't respec Sentinel, you big silly.

 

The whole base class -> advanced class seems like designer fluff to me. It really serves no purpose in the game itself.

 

the base class is there because they couldnt make 16 different class stories. It isnt fluff you big silly

[Mazikeen]

I think the main problem are games where multiple specs are allowed. I've played Rift in the past. And there you could have 5 different specs on 1 character. So yeah. You could be tank, DPS or healer all on one character. That's just wrong imo

 

Since this thread is still around, do tell me why it's 'wrong' to have multiple specs. No, really, I'm curious

 

FYI, I played WoW and I played Rift. I was a Druid in WoW and could perform three of the four roles very well (melee DPS on that class always hated me) and was all four classes in Rift and performed every role they had well enough to get invited to raids outside my guild

 

As a note, I do support dual specs but not dual ACs or swapping ACs. But the quoted post does beg an explanation of why it's 'wrong'

[Kantor_omicron]

Remember old good Lineage II? There is some interesting mechanic - a sub-classes. Maybe it's not harm to think about something alike? Say I have a 50 lvl char, and I run through a some quest-chain, and get access to second AC that will be lvl 25 or such... With abiility to switch back maybe... how about that?

[MeanMartian]

Your point is well made, however it is counter-intuitive for a business to allow it's customers to circumnavigate 50 hours of gameplay.

 

Unless doing so encourages players to continues beyond when they would normally cancel their subscription. And when doing so encourages other people to continue beyond their normal point of play saturation, but that's another argument all together.

 

I also disagree with you theory that it would increase retention and satisfaction.

 

Because? I can't address your reasoning unless you provide it. My reasoning is pretty easy to understand, a player with twice as many options will take longer to grow bored and quit. A player who's already ground through end game will be less interested in that 50 hours of gameplay you think it's in Biowares interest to charge him for.

 

Let me ask you, where does your enhanced player experience end? Your reasoning implies that switching from a Sith Warrior Juggernaut to a Smuggler Gunslinger would enhance the player experience also because it saved you 50 hours of spacebar spam. Do you think that is a good idea? On the flip side, do you think it would be a good idea to remove levelling altogether?

 

Well, that becomes a bit of a judgment call doesn't it? Yes, allowing players to switch from Juggernaut to Gunslinger would enhance the player experience if they were not interested in pursuing the Gunslinger story line. And on the same note, removing leveling all together would also enhance the player experience if the player were not interested in any of the story lines. On the other side of the scale, leveling does provide its own impetus to retain subscriptions by giving players a goal to work towards and a story to enjoy.

 

In this case, my enhanced player experience ends with advanced class switching. There is no alternate story to justify the 50+ hours of keyboard spam and, once again, allowing players uninterested in repeating the story to double the number of play options is a net gain and a reason to stick around between content patches.

 

I don't believe any game of this genre (EQ/WoW clones) will ever allow people to change class as you are null and voiding a lot of developer hours, amongst other things.

 

That didn't take long.

 

These games are all designed around having a huge time sink to levelling which allow you to have a greater sense of achievement once you get to the top, after all, that is why we play these games, they put a lot of funds into researching human psychology and manipulating our sense of achievement. Plus, you're not really "Role Playing" if you can just change your entire class. Remember, this is a Role Playing Game.

 

The problem with anonymous strangers quoting psychology to other anonymous strangers on the internet is that it's largely meaningless. In this individual case you are wrong, as I have no greater sense of achievement in repeating the exact same story line.

 

They don't want players to have one of each class... easily. They want you to master your chosen class and then play with others who have done the same to overcome challenges and get teh purplez. They do this because human psychology tells them that their playerbase will be more attached to their character if they have to sink 50-150 hours into creating it.

 

The only thing we know that they want is for players to buy the game and continue their subscription. Anything else is pointless speculation. Now, if you believe forcing alt leveling through the exact same story line will increase subscription retention, you've already had one opportunity to make that case. Feel free to take this as another opportunity.

 

Now, whether they should introduce a new class to SWTOR which has the ability to perform all three roles via their talent trees like a Druid/Paladin in WoW... well, I guess that's another discussion.

 

Yes, adding a new class with three roles would be a new discussion. But we're still discussing the benefits of allowing the existing classes three or more roles.

Edited February 9, 2012 by MeanMartian

[MeanMartian]

the base class is there because they couldnt make 16 different class stories. It isnt fluff you big silly

 

Is there some reason that you think the base class is necessary for them to share class stories? The system could be done just as simply by automatically sharing sage and shadow story lines. Or, they keep the same class structure but remove the 10 levels of leveling as someone class agnostic. During character selection you'd first pick "consular" and then immediately, you'd choose between "shadow" and "sage." Easy as pie, at level 1, you're a sage.

[SandsOfArrakis]

Since this thread is still around, do tell me why it's 'wrong' to have multiple specs. No, really, I'm curious

 

FYI, I played WoW and I played Rift. I was a Druid in WoW and could perform three of the four roles very well (melee DPS on that class always hated me) and was all four classes in Rift and performed every role they had well enough to get invited to raids outside my guild

 

As a note, I do support dual specs but not dual ACs or swapping ACs. But the quoted post does beg an explanation of why it's 'wrong'

 

Dual spec like in WoW ok. For groups, for solo it's not necessary. Each spec can solo fine. It's not like in WoW where soloing as a Holy Paladin always was slow and boring. But very wanted in groups.

 

And no I don't condone AC class changes either. If you pick Jedi Shadow you'll stay Shadow. Imo. Not get the option for oh wait I want to be a Sage today.

Edited February 9, 2012 by SandsOfArrakis

[formulaic]

I agree that switching between ACs is 'too much', but the current system is silly.

 

Currently you have to do 1-2 hours of play before "blindly" picking a class. If you don't like the gameplay, you just wasted all that time, and you'd have to repeat it all over again.

 

If you just picked your AC at level 1, you could work out your preference during those 10 levels and hopefully not waste the time on a character you don't like?

 

It may require some rebalancing, but it would be infinitely better for everyone to just pick our AC up front.

Edited February 9, 2012 by formulaic

[Mapex]

Is there some reason that you think the base class is necessary for them to share class stories? The system could be done just as simply by automatically sharing sage and shadow story lines. Or, they keep the same class structure but remove the 10 levels of leveling as someone class agnostic. During character selection you'd first pick "consular" and then immediately, you'd choose between "shadow" and "sage." Easy as pie, at level 1, you're a sage.

 

That won't change anything. You will still not understand how different a Sage is from a Shadow until level 25-40 anyway. This change would end up achieving nothing.

 

The best respec system I can think of is:

1) Limit two AC respecs per character (one to respec to the other AC, one to respec back to the first AC)

2) Available starting at level 25 and made permanently unavailable at level 50

3) Costs nothing (having to change out gear/weapons is bad enough, especially for JK/SW respecs)

4) One week cooldown (long enough so you are forced to get a better feel for the new class before respeccing back, but short enough for powerlevelers who will level to 50 too quickly for the cooldown to refresh).

Edited February 9, 2012 by Mapex

[BelphagorAD]

Idiotic logic.

 

I don't know of any MMOs where two "different" classes have 75% of the EXACT same abilities/spells.

 

DAoC? i.e. Animist/Valewalker = Sage/Shadow

 

I'm just another voice against anytime AC switch, perhaps a limited version only...but ok with open dual spec (within AC only).

Edited February 9, 2012 by BelphagorAD

[JohnAntilles]

A limited, time sensitive ac switch would not be a bad thing in my opinion.

 

Have it on a long, long cool down, like once per month. That way, people who delve into an AC and find out they don't like it 30 levels down the road when the class actually begins to open up, dont just have to go through those 30 levels again just to get back to where they were as another AC.

 

Simple, elegant, still has all the restrictions ingrained in the sense that if your switching between something like marauder and jugg, you would have to get new armor, and that would just be a fact of it.

 

I dont see this as being a problem in any way for the game, except for the whole "no, reroll, l2p, storyreasons" elitist crowd, and considering no one should pay them any mind anyways, I don't see a problem with it at all.

[Ajzorz]

Lol. "Wow did it better" what a childish thing to say after making it to a wopping lvl 18... the fact that you think you invested a "lot" of time to get to lvl 18 tells me you

probably never made it to wow endgame either so you don't really have enough experience with either game to give any real evaluation on which is better.

 

 

 

 

And fyi. Lvl 50 operatives own... so jokes on you. Maybe one day you will actually make it to the end game of an mmo and enjoy a class where its played how its mentioned with all of its abilities and more than 8that talent points.

[Kallti]

Because? I can't address your reasoning unless you provide it. My reasoning is pretty easy to understand, a player with twice as many options will take longer to grow bored and quit. A player who's already ground through end game will be less interested in that 50 hours of gameplay you think it's in Biowares interest to charge him for.

 

I provided my reasoning later in my post. It's because they invest money into psychology which means people will want to play their character if they have spent more time at the keyboard creating it, whether you believe that to be true or not is irrelevant.

 

Well, that becomes a bit of a judgment call doesn't it? Yes, allowing players to switch from Juggernaut to Gunslinger would enhance the player experience if they were not interested in pursuing the Gunslinger story line. And on the same note, removing leveling all together would also enhance the player experience if the player were not interested in any of the story lines. On the other side of the scale, leveling does provide its own impetus to retain subscriptions by giving players a goal to work towards and a story to enjoy.

 

In this case, my enhanced player experience ends with advanced class switching. There is no alternate story to justify the 50+ hours of keyboard spam and, once again, allowing players uninterested in repeating the story to double the number of play options is a net gain and a reason to stick around between content patches.

 

You just outlined many different opinions of player experience, Bioware has the job of choosing one and sticking to it. Currently they are following the same line as every other game in this genre in that they will not let you change class because it cheapens the experience of the playerbase they are targeting.

 

The reason I asked you if you think removing levelling was a good idea is because that is the mindset of the player they would be targeting if they were to allow class switching. So, ask yourself if you would like a game without levelling as a requirement and then ask yourself why or why not.

 

If you could change your class then everyone would only level once. Not many people like levelling, but it serves it's purpose for the game and will not be circumnavigated easily.

 

That didn't take long.

 

Are you saying this game is not a direct high-level replica of the genre?

 

Yes it's Star Wars, but the format of the game is exactly the same as the genre. Tanks, Healers, DPS, Raids, Dungeons, Hard Modes, Groups, Quests, Buffs, Debuffs, Health Points, Armour, Dodge, Parry, Accuracy, Haste, Critical Hits, "move from fire" etc, etc.

 

They are following the genre perfectly so far, I don't see why they would stray on this decision.

 

The problem with anonymous strangers quoting psychology to other anonymous strangers on the internet is that it's largely meaningless. In this individual case you are wrong, as I have no greater sense of achievement in repeating the exact same story line.

 

Yes, you would. If you actually put the time into making another character, even if it was the same story line, you would feel more attached and more willing to play it. That's a fact. Again, whether you are willing to admit that or not is another matter.

 

The fact that you don't want, or will not do it is also another matter. Obviously that is the risk that this format of gameplay inherits. They are accepting the risk that some people refuse to do it because the mitigating factor is that more people will want to and continue to want to. You are an acceptable loss.

 

The only thing we know that they want is for players to buy the game and continue their subscription. Anything else is pointless speculation. Now, if you believe forcing alt leveling through the exact same story line will increase subscription retention, you've already had one opportunity to make that case. Feel free to take this as another opportunity.

 

I'm not speculating. I am telling you how they came to make their business decision based on psychology which has been around for many years and is the driving force behind all these games which are based of time spent vs reward given, also known as achievement.

 

You mention alt levelling here, I'm not sure why. We are discussing the merit of allowing one character to change class, not alts.

 

Honestly, this is the same thing as people who want to rename their legacy. All it shows us is that some people don't research their choices thoroughly where they should. You should know intimately what class you want to play before you choose it based on what role you want to fill and therefore there should be no reason for you to want to change class. If you want an alt, level one, that's the point of the game. If you want different class stories for ACs, then ask for that.

 

Now, for new players you could argue that they would not understand or would not know they should research before making the decision, but then again that's why there are many warning in game which tell you the decision is irreversible and even descriptions of what the class will perform before creating. There is only so much the designers can do for you, some things you have to do for yourself.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Kallti

[MeanMartian]

I provided my reasoning later in my post. It's because they invest money into psychology which means people will want to play their character if they have spent more time at the keyboard creating it, whether you believe that to be true or not is irrelevant.

 

Ah, no that doesn't explain it very well at all. The argument you made was advanced class switching would not help retention, your reasoning for that is that they will want to play their character if they spend more time on the keyboard creating it.

 

This rationally does not follow because a character levelled to max and then advance class switched would have more time invested into it than any single alt made to explore another experience.

 

You just outlined many different opinions of player experience, Bioware has the job of choosing one and sticking to it.

 

Actually, Bioware has a job of selling copies of SW:TOR, subscriptions to it, and retaining as many of those subscriptions as possible. I am arguing for ways this change would help them do this job. If you honestly believe this would hurt the game, you should try to think of ways this change would hurt the game and make arguments for them.

 

Currently they are following the same line as every other game in this genre in that they will not let you change class because it cheapens the experience of the playerbase they are targeting.

 

Cheapens the experience? Like you cheapen the noble field of Psychology with your rampant speculation? No, ofcourse I kid. Once more, this is a matter of personal values. Do I think my experience is cheapened if the reward at the end of leveling is a character with six viable specs and three viable roles? Not at all. In fact, I would think, having twice as many play style choices during leveling would enrich my experience.

 

In fact, this leaves me curious. Exactly how would the leveling experience be "cheapened?" What do you even mean by that? If you'd provided some sort of reasoning for this claim, here or later in the post, you might have had a chance to sway me to your point of view. As things are, any way I'm able to look at this, you just seem wrong.

 

The reason I asked you if you think removing levelling was a good idea is because that is the mindset of the player they would be targeting if they were to allow class switching.

 

Incorrect. And once more, until you're certified as a practitioner of telepathy, this is pure speculation on your part. Since it's speculation that fails to provide an argument for or against advanced class switching and does nothing but attempt to tie my position in with behavior I am not advocating, it's useless speculation.

 

So, ask yourself if you would like a game without levelling as a requirement and then ask yourself why or why not.

 

A game without levelling... like old school Doom or Super Mario Brothers? Sure. But that's a different discussion.

 

If you could change your class then everyone would only level once. Not many people like levelling, but it serves it's purpose for the game and will not be circumnavigated easily.

 

Once more, we are discussing Advanced Class switching, that is limited flexibility in changing classes. With Advanced Class switching, at most, you could argue that players would only level 8 times. Once for each core class on each side.

 

But your position is weaker than that because you've already outlined why you are wrong. Not many people like levelling and many people will only level once or twice, regardless of how limited their classes are.

 

Are you saying this game is not a direct high-level replica of the genre?

 

I'm saying that arguments from what other games do are a waste of time unless you can explain why what other games do works and how it applies here and when you declare that 'no other game does something' without expanding on it, you have just wasted your time and the time of anyone who has read your sentence.

 

Yes it's Star Wars, but the format of the game is exactly the same as the genre. Tanks, Healers, DPS, Raids, Dungeons, Hard Modes, Groups, Quests, Buffs, Debuffs, Health Points, Armour, Dodge, Parry, Accuracy, Haste, Critical Hits, "move from fire" etc, etc.

 

They are following the genre perfectly so far, I don't see why they would stray on this decision.

 

Hmm, yep, those are all staples. Now lets pick an MMO that we're both familiar with, WoW, and list the ways it's different.

 

Leveling in SWTOR is painfully linear.

Leveling in SWTOR has no dual spec changes.

Leveling in SWTOR has no competitive low level battle grounds.

Leveling in SWTOR has limited group content.

Leveling in SWTOR requires learning pet mechanics if you wish to level optimally.

Leveling in SWTOR is shorter by 35 levels.

 

Why did I list all of those things? Absolutely no reason, because without an argument to make from these facts I have just wasted your time, in the exact same way that you have just wasted mine.

 

But I'm not a time waster so I will make an argument from this, lets pick the top example, linear leveling.

 

In WoW I could roll a mage, I could level that mage to 85 doing questing content. If I then decided I wanted a priest I could roll a priest, then I could level that priest to 85 doing entirely different quests and seeing entirely different content on entirely different maps. Then I could roll a paladin and I could level that paladin doing absolutely nothing but running 5 man dungeons, and I could get all the way up to 85. Then I can roll a rogue and get him to level 85 doing nothing but battle ground pvp content. You get the idea.

 

Now, I have a high level commando. If I wanted to roll a vanguard I would have to level that vanguard doing the exact same content that my commando has already gone through. If I tried to level doing nothing but dungeon content, assuming I was masochistic enough to try that without a dungeon finder tool, I would never have more than one companion and I wouldn't have any map mobility. No, my vanguard would be required, if only to effectively craft, repeat what my commando has already done.

 

So you see, in that one simple way this game is different from the standard MMO fare and so it's not unreasonable to expect a different response to this issue from Bioware.

 

Yes, you would. If you actually put the time into making another character, even if it was the same story line, you would feel more attached and more willing to play it. That's a fact. Again, whether you are willing to admit that or not is another matter.

 

If you insist on trying to tell me what I would think and how I would respond to a situation, when you don't know me from adam, I'm going to have trouble taking you seriously. This is you doing nothing but speculating on my character, that you mislabel this rampant speculation as fact only makes it sadder.

 

The fact that you don't want, or will not do it is also another matter. Obviously that is the risk that this format of gameplay inherits. They are accepting the risk that some people refuse to do it because the mitigating factor is that more people will want to and continue to want to. You are an acceptable loss.

 

Perhaps, but if you have an intellectually honest bone in your body, and since you're attempting to sell me on your ability to make accurately psychological diagnosis of total strangers I'm starting to wonder, you'll admit that you don't know what the entirety of the player base feels on this subject. In three months from now when the bell curve puts the plurality of players at level cap, you're not going to know what the entirety of the player base feels on this subject then either.

 

Neither do I, but here's something to consider, Bioware has put a really high level of development into their content. Voice actors, animations, story line, it's all top shelf and thus it will take longer to develop and expand upon. Blizzard puts out an expansion once every 2 years to their flagship MMO, they do so with a larger budget and lower production values than what SWTOR has set as their standard. At best, in a perfect world, Bioware will be able to match Blizzards release speed, in all likelihood they will take longer.

 

Your answer to this may be that it's all the more important for them to keep advanced class changing as far away from the game as possible because alt leveling is such a significant draw to continue playing, but in my anecdotal experience alt-aholics are the exception, not the rule. In my anecdotal experience, players level a character or two, they become attached to those two characters, and they stop having much interest in leveling further alts. Individual mileage may very, ofcourse, but as a rule the second time you level a character in a game it is less fun than the first time and the third time is less fun still. Everyone reaches their saturation point for leveling and at that stage alts become an unsustainable way to retain subscriptions.

 

No, far better to give players new and exciting reasons to play the characters they've already leveled and become attached to, and advanced class changing is just one way to do that.

 

I'm not speculating. I am telling you how they came to make their business decision based on psychology which has been around for many years and is the driving force behind all these games which are based of time spent vs reward given, also known as achievement.

 

Well, since you've provided no proof of special insight into the psychology of the designers or players, you've provided no line of reasoning by which you reach this conclusion, and you've provided no proof of your own expertise in the field of psychology. Quite the opposite, as your misuse of the word fact, speculation, and your brazen attempt to reach blanket conclusions and file it under 'psychology' has me pretty much convinced that your knowledge of psychology doesn't reach any further than watching a few episodes of Frasier, I'm just going to respond that I disagree.

 

You mention alt levelling here, I'm not sure why. We are discussing the merit of allowing one character to change class, not alts.

 

Well then I'll explain. As you can see from the sentence preceding my mention of leveling alts, and the second half of that sentence, that paragraph concerned subscription retention. That's a recurring theme with me because, for better or worse, subscription retention is what will drive the decisions they make about this game. Now, when it's all said and done the only way to retain subscriptions is to provide players something to do. Leveling alts is one thing to do, allowing new and interesting play experiences for the main character that players are most invested in is another thing to do.

 

Now, you've failed to make any cogent argument against the switching of advanced classes, and I'm not so arrogant as to think that there isn't a cogent argument. Perhaps you just don't know what I'm looking for, or what would sway a rational person with no predisposition towards believing unsupported claims into supporting your point of view.

 

My suggestion to you would be this, take ONE aspect of this that you dislike. Whether it be your confusing belief that it would "cheapen the experience" your unexplored belief that it would fail to help retention, or your belief that this game should model its decisions off of the industry standard and just really explore that idea. List the pros and cons, provide reasons for everything you say, and just dig deep into that one topic.

 

Honestly, this is the same thing as people who want to rename their legacy. All it shows us is that some people don't research their choices thoroughly where they should. You should know intimately what class you want to play before you choose it based on what role you want to fill and therefore there should be no reason for you to want to change class. If you want an alt, level one, that's the point of the game. If you want different class stories for ACs, then ask for that.

 

Do I even need to go into detail about how pointless this is? Well, I'll just say it briefly. Nobody has any reason to care about your opinion regarding what other people think. The conclusions that you reach are, and will always be, less useful and informative than simply asking them why they want something.

 

Now, we have at least two topics on the board that cover this issue, going through I can see that you're wrong. There are at least three good reasons to want to advanced class switch that can't be alleviated by doing extensive research. First off, there are scoundrels and operatives out there who's class suddenly no longer plays in the way they expected. All the research in the world didn't help them when what they knew became wrong. Secondly, there are vanguards out there who've noticed a lack of healers in pvp and want to fill the gap. Unless you meant to include knowing the end game population make-up before it happens as part of your research. Thirdly, there are people who really liked their class at first back when it was what they wanted, but now they've had a change of heart. They knew the choice they were making, now they want to make a different choice.

 

And ofcourse I disagree with your entire premise. Knowing everything about your class by the time you reach level 10, that's a tad unrealistic.

 

Now, for new players you could argue that they would not understand or would not know they should research before making the decision, but then again that's why there are many warning in game which tell you the decision is irreversible and even descriptions of what the class will perform before creating. There is only so much the designers can do for you, some things you have to do for yourself.

 

Kudos, you have made a factual statement about the state of the game as it currently stands. But as this paragraph has forwarded no argument for, or against, the proposed change, it is honestly a waste of time. And you lose points for attempting to imply that those who disagree with you are lazy, I believe that's called 'projection' in psychological circles.

Edited February 10, 2012 by MeanMartian

[Kallti]

I get it, you disagree... I'm going to make this my last post on the topic because I don't have the time to respond to all your points/insults individually, however I will make one last ditched effort to get my point across for the sake of the thread. I hope, for your sake, you can find something else to insult me with contained within, as you seem to enjoy it ever so =)

 

I was simply trying to say that the reason you can't switch classes is because they obviously don't want you to, the reasons for this are based in psychology, obviously I am not a psychologist, I do know that game designers put stock in the link between time spent vs reward given to try and draw people in and keep them there by manipulating that sense of achievement.

 

This is a derived conclusion drawn from many sources. I have listened to psychologists speak on the topic within documentaries, I have read printed journals and web references on game addiction as I'm sure many people have. I don't feel the need to sight specifics because I believe it is common knowledge, but the evidence is through the entire game, it's literally everywhere in SW:TOR. You put time into hard modes and get a nice purple piece of gear, or perhaps a title for your efforts, you put time into levelling crafting skills to be able to make a nice bit of gear or make some credits, you do all your dailies every day for months and then are able to buy your gear with the proceeds, you put 3-4days time played into a character and you can now play with your friends. The entire game is built around the model of time spent vs reward given, I thought this was obvious.

 

Based from this ideal, which is the same in any game within this genre so it is nothing new, I believe Bioware will never allow you to change AC as it negates the high-level theory of time spent vs reward given. Just because they are called Advanced Classes does not mean they are any less your class, if you advocate for changing advanced classes, you are also an advocate for changing base class because it is the same thing as far as semantics go. WoW will never allow you to change from a Warlock to a Hunter for the same reason.

 

As I said though, I personally think you should be asking for more variety in class stories i.e. build a different story for each AC not BC. I believe that would have a greater chance of happening and appears to alleviate at least some of your concerns.

[QiBao]

Sweet Internet psychology.

[xMasterful]

From what I have read the best option to dealing with this is to give an option to pick your advanced class at the character creation screen. Like this it would be more resolute and defined. People think that advanced classes are like specs in WoW where you change your spec but this is a little different.

[MeanMartian]

I get it, you disagree... I'm going to make this my last post on the topic because I don't have the time to respond to all your points/insults individually, however I will make one last ditched effort to get my point across for the sake of the thread. I hope, for your sake, you can find something else to insult me with contained within, as you seem to enjoy it ever so =)

 

Four paragraphs, one argument made for or against allowing advanced class switches. Well, you're doing better so I'll likely have fewer reasons to insult you this time around.

 

I was simply trying to say that the reason you can't switch classes is because they obviously don't want you to,

 

I can think of at least three things that aren't in game now that they've already said they want to be... so "obviously" isn't a word that can honestly be applied in this case. Further, I can think of at least one source stating that, at some time late in game development, they wanted advance class switching to be in game, so what's an "obvious" choice for you, clearly wasn't so obvious for them.

 

And even if it was, and I am getting so tired of saying this, that is not an argument for or against advanced class switching. You are wasting my time and your own.

 

the reasons for this are based in psychology, obviously I am not a psychologist, I do know that game designers put stock in the link between time spent vs reward given to try and draw people in and keep them there by manipulating that sense of achievement.

 

This is a derived conclusion drawn from many sources. I have listened to psychologists speak on the topic within documentaries, I have read printed journals and web references on game addiction as I'm sure many people have. I don't feel the need to sight specifics because I believe it is common knowledge, but the evidence is through the entire game, it's literally everywhere in SW:TOR. You put time into hard modes and get a nice purple piece of gear, or perhaps a title for your efforts, you put time into levelling crafting skills to be able to make a nice bit of gear or make some credits, you do all your dailies every day for months and then are able to buy your gear with the proceeds, you put 3-4days time played into a character and you can now play with your friends. The entire game is built around the model of time spent vs reward given, I thought this was obvious.

 

Okay, fine, I've explained every way I can why your psychological analysis is not a point worth arguing and why your attempts to project your own interpretation onto the thoughts and motives of others is laughable and yet you continue to bring it up instead of searching for an actual argument to make. You're making yourself look foolish every time you go down this line of reasoning, but you won't drop it and so here you stand. Fine, lets discuss it...

 

Based from this ideal, which is the same in any game within this genre so it is nothing new, I believe Bioware will never allow you to change AC as it negates the high-level theory of time spent vs reward given. Just because they are called Advanced Classes does not mean they are any less your class, if you advocate for changing advanced classes, you are also an advocate for changing base class because it is the same thing as far as semantics go. WoW will never allow you to change from a Warlock to a Hunter for the same reason.

 

Taking your "ideal" to its extreme, and using a logical fallacy that you've already tried against me, why not further subdivide the advanced classes into three distinct classes based on their talent specs? That would be most in line with the "high-level theory of time spent vs reward given." A phrase you don't explain, which is good, because you've used it incorrectly. Think of all the opportunity you'd have to 'invest time for reward if', to switch from a Watchmen Sentinel to a Combat Sentinel, you had to roll a new character!

 

But no, that would be stupid for two reasons. The first being your entire theory does not support your point. Allowing advanced class switching increases the reward that you've received for leveling and encourages a player to invest more time in exploring and learning the new specs that are open to them. And secondly, because "work for reward" is just one aspect game designers need to balance and weave into the game experience, variety is another, fun is a third, accessibility is a fourth, there's tons more of course by you get the idea. The game developers have already sacrificed some of your precious 'work' to the altar of variety by allowing players three different specs and they've given up some of the 'work' in favor of accessibility by allowing players to pay for total talent respecs.

 

Now, as an inherently honest person I will admit, I don't know the 'psychology' of the game developers well enough to say how each of them prioritizes the dozens of often contradictory components that make up an MMO.

 

As I said though, I personally think you should be asking for more variety in class stories i.e. build a different story for each AC not BC. I believe that would have a greater chance of happening and appears to alleviate at least some of your concerns.

 

I was tempted to just point out that this was wildly off topic, but no, lets discuss it.

 

Building a story for each AC doubles the amount of work it takes to develop class specific story lines and leveling content. We're talking about an overhaul of a major part of the game, and while it might have been awesome to see, it's not likely to happen at this stage. And that's even before you add other complications like, which AC gets the new quests and the population bump that comes with curious people checking them out? What about companions, do the AC's keep the same companion roster, it would probably be easier if they did, then you'd only have to bring those voice actors back to redo their dialogue up to recruitment, oh, and maybe some dialogue choices for those private conversations if they're plot line specific. Gonna be tricky doubling the number of class specific instance portals on a given planet, some of them are going to have to start pulling double duty. Hangars can probably start doing double duty as well. Oh, yes, and while Bioware is revamping all of this, they're spending time and effort that could be spent on introducing new classes.

 

No, the path you have suggested is far harder than the path I have suggested. In fact, I'd bet money on you getting a degree in psychology before we see separate quest arks for the advanced classes.

 

Edit, this didn't hit me until I was sitting over a bowl of cornflakes this morning, but I'm really bummed that I won't get to understand how advance class switching 'cheapens the experience.'

Edited February 10, 2012 by MeanMartian

[Solmundr]

Can I just start by saying thank you to Kallti and Meanmartian for having that discussion, because if they hadn't I would almost certainly have spent hours having it myself XD

 

I come down on the "for AC switching side" for a variety of reasons, but my main one (and one that I've seen mentioned only a little) is this:

 

I don't see an AC that does what I want from a character.

 

Now I'm not talking EVERYTHING I want, because I'd love to be able to do ranged dps, melee dps, tanking and healing, but I recognize that would be ridiculous.

 

But REASONABLY I want this: an AC that lets me spec between tanking and healing; an AC that specs between healing and melee dps, or an AC that specs between ranged and melee dps. I know some hybrids come close, but with all the class choices in this game I think it's sad that these sets aren't represented, ESPECIALLY the first one.

 

This permanent AC system could work, but only if they made enough AC's so that everyone could pick their pair. I'm sure some people are thrilled with the options already available, but so far they ALL make me feel regret before even making a decision! And you might say I'm being greedy, but I think it's unfair for some people to have the spec pair they want and others to simply not.

 

AC switching would remove this need for additional variety. But one or the other has to come, because replaying a class from start to finish just for a different spec is brutal, and will never stop drawing complaints. A separate story for EACH AC would also make re-rolling enticing, but the other options are not only easier to implement, but cheaper and more freeing (speaking as someone who actually has video game development experience)

 

That's my 2 cents. I'm glad the conversation took a more civil tone near the end.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Solmundr

[DarthRake]

Since we can not switch adv classes, once you hit 50 you should be able to level the same class twice as fast since you have to go through the same exact story again. Otherwise make the stories different so its not the same thing. I have a sage but I would like a shadow more. I just don't want to go through the same thing over. Edited February 11, 2012 by DarthRake

[Darthshnooky]

But REASONABLY I want this: an AC that lets me spec between tanking and healing; an AC that specs between healing and melee dps, or an AC that specs between ranged and melee dps. I know some hybrids come close, but with all the class choices in this game I think it's sad that these sets aren't represented, ESPECIALLY the first one.

 

But it's a clear, conscious decision on their part NOT to allow it, especially the first one. It seems that BioWare purposefully made it so that no AC could do both healing and tanking. The game is designed with that dynamic in mind. Much like how every AC can put out competitive DPS, or how 3/4 of the base classes in the game can eventually choose to either Tank or Heal.

 

It simply comes down to the "you can't always get what you want" approach. In this case, you just have to face the fact that no class allows for both tanking and healing. It's how the game was designed and it's not likely to change anytime soon (as in 2012). The Q&A from today just further cemented the fact that BioWare continues to support permanent ACs and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

[tychosilvermane]

I've been playing the Imperial Agent for a few days now. At level 10, after much consideration, I decided to go operative over sniper because it seemed like a cool class that snuck around and then stabbed people. However, after awhile I decided that operative was much too slow and had pitiful damage output, so I just thought to myself "well I tried out operative and didn't like it, I should probably go sniper". That's when I found out that YOU CAN NEVER CHANGE YOUR ADVANCED CLASS. Why wouldn't Bioware let players change their advanced class. At this point I was level 18 and if I wanted to go sniper I would have to repeat about 3 days of work. I have loved this game so far, but this is the first major issue that I have run into. I hate myself for saying this, but WoW did it better.

 

0/10

 

WoW didn't let you change from a priest to a warlock by visiting an NPC. That is what you're asking for. It's Advanced Class. CLASS.