You Can't Change Your Advanced Class!?!?!

[Tasburath]

No one has convinced me that there is a good reason to allow class switching.

 

Just because you don't like the class that you choose isn't good enough.

 

I'm sorry that you have to redo quests and story lines to level another character. Most MMOs are the same way, without the voice-overs.

 

They don't need to allow class switching to solve your problem. They just need to add alternate content for you to level your alt with.

[Kallti]

Point of order here, I never once called you names. I just told you that your attempts at psychology were a stupid waste of time that made you look foolish every time you uttered them.

 

You just called me more names based off your opinion that I wasted your time, when in fact it is my opinion that if you invested some time into accepting others opinions you would waste less time arguing and more time revelling in the truth.

 

You also made the mistake here of speaking for other people, which you didn't like me or anyone else doing, so I'd suggest you not do it yourself. I have no problem if you think my opinion is foolish or a stupid waste of time, but who are you to say I look a certain way in the eyes of everyone else.

 

Now, back on topic, you are quite obviously a fairly clever person, so let me ask you, why do you think Bioware don't allow class switching currently and have stated they will not in the future?

[mecher]

Lol at OP.

[MeanMartian]

You just called me more names based off your opinion that I wasted your time, when in fact it is my opinion that if you invested some time into accepting others opinions you would waste less time arguing and more time revelling in the truth.

 

Actually no, saying that you're wasting my time is not calling you a name. Calling you a name would be, hypothetically, saying that you were a shaggy nerfherder. Telling you that you're wasting my time is simply telling you that you are wasting my time.

 

Having cleared that up, your opinion is that there needs to be some sort of continuing work for reward investment to maintain subscriber interest. Whether that be in the form of heroic grinding for the best gear, level grinding to get the awesome new power, profession grinding to get the nicest craftables, or even grinding low level dungeons to get that cosmetic orange set you want. You believe, for reasons you have not shared, that allowing advance class switching would 'cheapen' the leveling experience.

 

Now, I know what your opinion is, and to the extent that it is your opinion, I accept it. What I can't do is share it, for one simple reason. I don't agree with it and you've not done a good job of convincing me that your opinion is the 'truth.'

 

You also made the mistake here of speaking for other people, which you didn't like me or anyone else doing, so I'd suggest you not do it yourself. I have no problem if you think my opinion is foolish or a stupid waste of time, but who are you to say I look a certain way in the eyes of everyone else.

 

I don't believe I did that. In fact, at no point did I say you looked foolish to everybody so the implication is clearly that you were making yourself look foolish to me. However, of the people to comment on our little exchange, you've had mixed reactions, one person claiming that you came off civilly, and the other saying that you did a poor job of explaining your position.

 

Now, back on topic, you are quite obviously a fairly clever person, so let me ask you, why do you think Bioware don't allow class switching currently and have stated they will not in the future?

 

Well for one, they have not stated that they will not in the future. They have stated that they have no plans to allow advanced class switching. Don't over sell your case.

 

As for why they don't allow it now, I would hazard a couple of different explanations. First and foremost, SWTOR has lifted the talent structure from BC WoW. No reason not to, it's a winning formula that's been time tested and, in WoW, finds a nice middle ground between allowing players flexibility with their characters and encouraging them to roll alternates. Lifting a format they already know works saves quite a bit of development time. Secondly, allowing advanced class swapping in the early months of the game could make it difficult to track down early balance problems. Under powered advanced classes will be even more under represented than they are now and that could make it difficult to gather raw data over a wide range of player skills and specs. Thirdly, they probably believe this will encourage a player to roll on the opposite faction when he wants to test out the 'other advanced class.' I know I'm seriously thinking about rolling a powertech BH just to see how Vanguards play without subjecting myself to a repeat of that same storyline.

 

But I'm just guessing and if I thought any of these reasons were particularly compelling, I'd probably have a different opinion than I do now.

Edited February 16, 2012 by MeanMartian

[MeanMartian]

No one has convinced me that there is a good reason to allow class switching.

 

Just because you don't like the class that you choose isn't good enough.

 

I'm sorry that you have to redo quests and story lines to level another character. Most MMOs are the same way, without the voice-overs.

 

They don't need to allow class switching to solve your problem. They just need to add alternate content for you to level your alt with.

 

Well, all we can do is post reasons, but you'll never be convinced if you don't read the reasons posted.

 

As was explained before, MOST MMOs offer alternative methods of leveling your character. I know in a game like WoW or Rifts the "gather some chestnuts" early level quest seems a lot like the "gather some pumpkins" early level alternative quest available in another zone but it is still a different quest in a different zone. In WoW particularly you can level entirely on dungeon content or level competitive PvP content. In SWTOR, if you want to level the other advanced class, you need to do the exact same quests.

 

In this way, SWTOR is a weaker play experience and has less replay value than WoW or Rifts. And while adding alternate content to use when leveling an alt is part of a solution to that, Bioware has set a very high bar for the content they produce. For them to double the number of class specific quests in game, without compromising the technical standards they've set, will require a lot of work. Then you have to take into account that all of the side missions are still going to be the same, so it's still going to be largely the same experience that you've had with only a few missions different. So, if they invest in voice actors, animations, and writing for 8 entirely new mission scripts, they can make a modest improvement to this games replayability. I'm not convinced that it's worth the time and effort because, if it hasn't happened already, the majority of players will soon be at level cap and they will be asking for more play options at end game. Particularly because this game has such limited replay value. At this point the bulk of developer time and effort will be split between stamping out the last of those new game bugs, developing end game content, and delicately balancing the advanced classes.

Edited February 16, 2012 by MeanMartian

[Toogeloo]

In WoW particularly you can level entirely on dungeon content or level competitive PvP content. In SWTOR, if you want to level the other advanced class, you need to do the exact same quests.

 

I've leveled my Mercenary so far to 24 just doing Flashpoints. I haven't even been to Dromund Kass yet.

 

A friend of mine has gotten his Powertech to level 33 doing nothing but PvP.

[MeanMartian]

I've leveled my Mercenary so far to 24 just doing Flashpoints. I haven't even been to Dromund Kass yet.

 

A friend of mine has gotten his Powertech to level 33 doing nothing but PvP.

 

Nothing but flasshpoints without any sort of group finder... *shudder* You're a better man than I. Still, you're going to miss your companions when it comes time to level your professions.

[Toogeloo]

Who cares about Professions? They are mostly useless anyways. Since my Merc is an alt anyways, I just feed her cash from my main, and if I really wanted to level a profession, I would just buy the mats and craft using Mako non-stop.

 

Dungeon Finder isn't that bad, I use general chat on Fleet, and the "WHO" tab and cherry pick my teammates.

[TKMaster]

Ac is your class.

You NEVER EVER IN ANY MMO can change from Mage to Rogue.

Deal with it.

Bioware told you 10 times over (I just put a char above ten yesterday) that AC is permanent and CAN'T BE CHANGED.

Roll a new char, it takes about 5 or 6 hours. Less if you skip the conversations you already know now.

 

SWG let you respec to any class you wanted and you didnt lose any lvls at all.

 

On another note thank the maker its dead now.

[Gagelish]

Nothing but flasshpoints without any sort of group finder... *shudder* You're a better man than I. Still, you're going to miss your companions when it comes time to level your professions.

 

If you're going to discount my whole post because I was piggybacking on someone else then I have nothing to say to you. The esimple fact is that extensive research disagrees with you and you insist on thinking you're smarter than everyone else. You might find a game that agrees with you, and when you do, have fun. As it stands now, this isn't the game you're looking for and neither the players nor the developers want it to be that game. QQ more?

[sillabaa]

Stupid op ignores multiple warnings and rages that he can't change a selection that he was warned he couldn't change. Adv class cannot be changed and should never be able to be changed.

 

Dumb whine thread #447744377821133568

 

1* this pos. op pls go

[Wickerby]

I don't think it would be a good idea to allow people to change your advanced class.

 

Bioware made the game around the idea that the player would have to make choices that matter. AC selection is one of these choices. How can you have a game built around choices that matter, when you can pay a few thousand credits to change your mind! This game is not wow. The class you choose at the beginning is not a class like you would find in world of warcraft, you make that final choice at level 10. They are not glorified specialisations, they are the second half of the class you chose when making your character!

There is a reason they are called "advanced classes" instead of "specialisations".

[SandsOfArrakis]

What do you want OP? A game like Rift where you can basically play everything you want with 1 character? Hurrah, so much for sticking to a choice. Hell you don't even have to play a new character when a certain spec becomes FOTM.

 

You're comparing SW TOR a lot to WoW. Understandable I guess. But...

Take for example the Consular/Inquisitor. Their advanced classes are as night and day. Completely different. In WoW terms you could say, up to a certain point, Priest and Rogue.

You think you can spec a Priest in WoW to play as a Rogue, or the other way around? No you can't. And nor shouldn't you.

 

The game gives you several warnings that an Advanced Class choice is final. And in my opinion it should stay that way. I don't mind that we, eventually, get a dual spec system. For those who love to tank for example but prefer a different spec for solo. That's fine with me. As long as it's in the Advanced Class itself. Not that you love to play a Shadow but for grouping you rather be a Sage. This ... never...

 

Just my 0,02€

[MeanMartian]

If you're going to discount my whole post because I was piggybacking on someone else then I have nothing to say to you. The esimple fact is that extensive research disagrees with you and you insist on thinking you're smarter than everyone else. You might find a game that agrees with you, and when you do, have fun. As it stands now, this isn't the game you're looking for and neither the players nor the developers want it to be that game. QQ more?

 

For one, I was more than a little confused about you posting my response to another poster all together and then ignoring that entire discussion in your response to me.

 

As for the discussion I was having with you, I addressed each and every one of the points that you raised and dismissed them on their own merits. Some of them were wrong, none of them were very well explained, and almost all of them require that you have some special insight into the psychologies of the majority of players. You performed badly. You can see my full response back on response page 39.

 

Now, as for your 'shoot from the hip' psychological analysis of me. I don't think I'm smarter than everyone else, I do think I'm smarter than you but only because you've given me ample reason to think so.

Edited February 16, 2012 by MeanMartian

[MeanMartian]

What do you want OP? A game like Rift where you can basically play everything you want with 1 character? Hurrah, so much for sticking to a choice. Hell you don't even have to play a new character when a certain spec becomes FOTM.

 

Yes, the OP doesn't want to stick to a choice he made at level 10 before his character unlocked all of its abilities and its play style became full realized. You have now spent your first paragraph recapping his position. Do you have any analysis of that position that you'd like to share?

 

You're comparing SW TOR a lot to WoW. Understandable I guess. But...

Take for example the Consular/Inquisitor. Their advanced classes are as night and day. Completely different. In WoW terms you could say, up to a certain point, Priest and Rogue.

You think you can spec a Priest in WoW to play as a Rogue, or the other way around? No you can't. And nor shouldn't you.

 

*sigh* Everyone sing it with me now. Shadows and Sages share 65% of their powers. Shadows and Sages share 100% of their story line. Shadows and Sages share 100% of their companions. Shadows and Sages share 93% of their gear.

 

Priests and Rogues share NONE of that.

 

The game gives you several warnings that an Advanced Class choice is final. And in my opinion it should stay that way. I don't mind that we, eventually, get a dual spec system. For those who love to tank for example but prefer a different spec for solo. That's fine with me. As long as it's in the Advanced Class itself. Not that you love to play a Shadow but for grouping you rather be a Sage. This ... never...

 

Just my 0,02€

 

Oh good, so WHY do you prefer it this way? What is your reasoning? Have you seriously thought about this? Until you provide some substantive reasoning for your position, than I'm afraid 0,02€ is too high a price to pay for your musings.

[MeanMartian]

I don't think it would be a good idea to allow people to change your advanced class.

 

Bioware made the game around the idea that the player would have to make choices that matter. AC selection is one of these choices.

 

Do you think this game is stronger for locking players into that choice? If so why? Does your opinion change if Bioware makes decisions to invalidate the players choice, such as overhauling the talent trees to make someones spec inviable?

[MeanMartian]

Adv class cannot be changed and should never be able to be changed.

 

Fascinating, do you have a particular reason to feel that way? Or are you just stupidly wasting our time and yours?

Edited February 16, 2012 by MeanMartian

[Mystcard]

Fascinating, do you have a particular reason to feel that way? Or are you just stupidly wasting our time and yours?

 

Why in the world would you be able to change an adv class? It is a class just like any other class in any other MMO. If you can't settle with one class you need to roll alts.

 

Take for example sorc and assassin. How are they even remotely similar in playstyle?

 

You have talent builds that you can play around with, it was never meant for adv classes to be changeable simply because it's a class. Just because they give you an arch type then call the final result an adv class does not make it something else.

 

It is about building your character and making those decisions along the way. That is what playing an MMO is all about, no?

Edited February 16, 2012 by Mystcard

[SandsOfArrakis]

@MeanMartian

Honestly. Why would you want an advanced class to be changeable. Just because they share a bunch of abilities don't make them the same.

 

I get the feeling you want everything handed to you on one character on a silver plate. It doesn't work that way.

[MeanMartian]

To start, I notice you quoted a question that I asked another poster, and then did not even bother trying to answer it. You're already off to a poor start.

 

Why in the world would you be able to change an adv class? It is a class just like any other class in any other MMO. If you can't settle with one class you need to roll alts.

 

Are they like "any other class in any other MMO?" I've already listed, earlier in this page, about four ways in which advanced classes are different than separate classes in "any other MMO."

 

Take for example sorc and assassin. How are they even remotely similar in playstyle?

 

Okay, they have the same gear. They have the same story line. They have the same companions. They share 65% of the same abilities. In this way these classes are VERY similar. And VERY beats "remotely."

 

You have talent builds that you can play around with, it was never meant for adv classes to be changeable simply because it's a class. Just because they give you an arch type then call the final result an adv class does not make it something else.

 

This was a question they were going back and forth on up until release. Just because YOU are under the mistaken impression that advance class changes were "never meant to happen" does not make it so. And no, it's not accurate to call a class an "archtype" because the class determines the majority of your characters abilities, his primary statistic, his armor class, his weapons choices. Too much of a character is tied up in his class choice for it to be dismissed as an 'archtype.'

 

It is about building your character and making those decisions along the way. That is what playing an MMO is all about, no?

 

Make a post in which you are demonstrably wrong less than half the time, and we can discuss the philosophy of MMO's.

 

@MeanMartian

Honestly. Why would you want an advanced class to be changeable. Just because they share a bunch of abilities don't make them the same.

 

I get the feeling you want everything handed to you on one character on a silver plate. It doesn't work that way.

 

I do believe I asked first. You tell me why you don't want an advanced class to be changeable, and I'll go back and dig up one of my earlier posts that explains the many benefits of allowing it. Then maybe we can have a discussion. Although, given your closing paragraph, I don't have much hope for your ability to have a discussion.

[sharkfinsix]

EQ2 used to have a advanced class system. Rather then let you change your advance class, they just stripped away the base class completely. So now you are locked into your decisions from lvl 1. Not that lvl 10 is hard to get to in this game, like what? 3 hours with voice overs? faster without?

[SandsOfArrakis]

I do believe I asked first. You tell me why you don't want an advanced class to be changeable, and I'll go back and dig up one of my earlier posts that explains the many benefits of allowing it. Then maybe we can have a discussion. Although, given your closing paragraph, I don't have much hope for your ability to have a discussion.

 

The reason I don't want an Advanced Class change ability is that it goes against the whole class idea. The way I see it you want a character which can do everything anytime you feel like it. A jack of all trades, and a master of all.

 

As I said before. Just because 2 Advanced Classes of the starter class share a bunch of abilities does not make them the same.

 

But that's just me with my apparent lack of discussion ability. You're just plain rude going at people like that.

[MeanMartian]

The reason I don't want an Advanced Class change ability is that it goes against the whole class idea.

 

The "whole class idea." I have no idea what you mean by that. I can only guess what you're going for here, and just guessing would be unfair to you.

 

The way I see it you want a character which can do everything anytime you feel like it. A jack of all trades, and a master of all.

 

Though apparently you're fine at just guessing what I want. And you call me rude. By the way, both times that you've guessed about what I want, you've been completely wrong.

 

In this case you're not even close to right as allowing advanced class switching does not turn my character into any more of a "master of all trades" than allowing dual speccing talents. In both situations I would be given the opportunity to, out of combat and out of battle grounds, trade my characters current strengths, weaknesses, and about a third of his abilities, for different strengths, weaknesses and a different third of his abilities.

 

If you'd actually consider the situation you'd realize that.

 

As I said before. Just because 2 Advanced Classes of the starter class share a bunch of abilities does not make them the same.

 

Having a bunch of things that are the same make them, by definition, less different or, more the same. Now, I think the degree to which it makes them similar is so severe that it's inaccurate to call them "different classes" and that Bioware did the right thing by calling them "advanced classes." You apparently think the extent to which they are the same is not significant enough for you to justify calling them separate classes. The reason you think this... I don't have a clue.

 

If I had to guess, and I hate doing it because you should have the opportunity to express your own thoughts and beliefs, based on your "shadow/sage" example, it's because shadows fill a tanking/melee dps role exclusively and sages fill a healing/ranged dps role exclusively. And so no Shadow ever fills the same party role as a Sage. But that reasoning falls apart before it even starts because we don't restrict advanced classes to a single role. We've already compromised on that principle by letting shadows tank and dps. Letting them heal or do ranged dps is a logical extension.

 

But that's just me with my apparent lack of discussion ability. You're just plain rude going at people like that.

 

Well, looking at this objectively. You've made three points in favor of your argument, you've not explained or expanded on either point at all. One point you explained so poorly that I have no idea what you mean, the other point is demonstrably wrong, and the third point is a matter of interpretation. You've made one wild guess about my motives based on no information. So, objectively speaking, you are living down to the expectations you set the first time you accused me of 'wanting everything handed to me on a silver plate.'

 

But you did make an attempt to answer my question and tell me why you don't want me to have advanced class switching. In the World of Warcraft I used to play a hunter and I got bored with it because a hunter can do damage. They have three different ways of doing damage, but one spec is always superior to the other two and none of the specs are really that different from each other. Now I play a Shaman, and shaman are awesome because they can play in three entirely different play styles. I started him as a melee dps shaman, enhancement, got bored and switched him to ranged dps, that's elemental, I got into a raid guild and, just owning a healing offset got me into end game raids. I spend half my raid night healing, and I don't enjoy healing that much, but I enjoy doing end game raids and like my guild enough that it's a fair trade. It's challenging for me because I get to keep up with three entirely different play methods, rewarding because I get to choose what I want to do, and not frustrating at all because I don't need to try to drum up affection or enthusiasm for some long forgotten alt. I'm addicted to my Shaman, and through that WoW, and you know the craziest thing, I WANT to be addicted to SW:TOR in the same way.

 

But SW:TOR does not have a shaman. SW:TOR does not have an advanced class as versatile as the shaman. SW:TOR does not have a class that will hold my attention as long as my shaman did. Sure, I can level an alt, but as I've been pointing out, SW:TOR has less replay value than WoW, a lot less if you're talking about leveling two of the same class, so if it comes down to that, I'm just as likely to go play an alternate game. If they allow advanced class switching, then every class becomes as versatile as the Shaman. Every class doubles the opportunity to line up, just right, and capture a players attention and hold it through content droughts, glitch filled patches, battle ground exploits, and all of the other minor frustrations that can add up and turn a player off of an MMO.

Edited February 16, 2012 by MeanMartian

[Microwavegerbil]

Every class has its own storyline, this game has far MORE replayability value than WoW does. At least, for leveling it does.

 

That's part of WHY there is no shaman-like class in this game. I loved my shaman too, but this game =/= WoW. The inability to have one character be able to switch between so many roles is a purposeful design decision that is linked to the fact that leveling is so enjoyable due to the unique storylines.

 

It comes down to: I and many others like this decision, you don't. That's fine, but you come across as being extremely arrogant in your posts, which is probably why you're catching so much flak.

[MeanMartian]

Every class has its own storyline, this game has far MORE replayability value than WoW does. At least, for leveling it does.

 

Your conclusion is different from mine, you provide no rationale for your conclusion, no explanation, no new thoughts to consider. Thus your conclusion is rejected as incorrect. Too arrogant? Ohwell, let me try again.

 

In WoW I could level an alternative character without repeating a single quest that my main did. In WoW I could level an alternative character easily through the dungeon finder. In WoW I could level an alternative character in level bracketted pvp without being a burden on my team. In SW:TOR I can level a new advanced class by repeating the exact same quests I already did. Or I can level an entirely new class by doing almost all of the exact same quests I already did.

 

How did you reach your conclusion that this game has, not just more, but far MORE replayability than WoW does?

 

If I come off as arrogant it's only because people make asinine posts, don't provide any supporting reason for their assertions and I call them on it.