Spoils of War Changes – PTS Phase 2

[Lt-Snake]

The RNG is a deliberate form of conditioning to subconsciously get us so used to gambling that we'll no longer object when we spend money in the cartel market.

 

i agree with this.

 

ok on to issue at hand. lets face it people Bioware is doing this nonsensical gearing system so they can spend the next 6 months post launch fixing it (history has proven this with Bioware ahem 5.0), just so they can have a built in excuse, to not make real content post launch of 6.0. no one can be this Dense, so dug in, so willingly ignorant, so stubborn, so presumptuous, so full of arrogance that they keep making the same mistakes over and over and over again without making a real change to the way they think and do things in service to their fans, except Bioware. these folks have clogged ears full to the brim with wax. they don't hear jack diddly nor do they choose to hear jack diddly. it's their way or no way. in their lengthy post they even adding more insults to our misery....they added more RNG. the biggest complaint people have with the PTS gearing system is RNG. and the unanimous consensus BY EVERYONE is to GET RID of RNG...but leave it to Biodeaf to add more RNG. simply incredible.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Lt-Snake

[Rolodome]

The RNG is a deliberate form of conditioning to subconsciously get us so used to gambling that we'll no longer object when we spend money in the cartel market.

This seems like the most likely explanation. They already pushed the bar on what's normal with GC. Now they want to "learn from their mistakes," while really just making it slightly less obvious, but with the same intentions. I was wary when they said GC would remain as a supplemental system and it seems there was reason to be. The people who push this stuff need to be regulated out of the industry. A little RNG here and there can be an innocent simulation of randomness, but SWTOR takes it to another level and turns the word into a slur.

[Raansu]

Honestly, what is the obsession with RNG? LET US GEAR IN A LINEAR, CONTROLLABLE FASHION.

 

Ya I don't get it. Over the years there's been extreme backlash for it every time it pops up whether it was the battlemaster bags back in the day, the command crates, or this new rng drops/vendor garbage (the vendor of all things is rng....***.) Every single time people have lashed out at them, but they keep trying to bring it back like they have short term memory or something. No matter how many times they try no ones going to like it. They need to just go back to the linear progression we had for years with the tokens and commendations and they can keep the RNG BS for the casuals that don't want to do end game.

[Hawkebatt]

RNG RNG RNG

 

Wowthat is a lot about RNG well the thing is I saw a little bit on the PTS and just from that I have found that I may not be the subscriber you need me to be. You see I am not a whale or a dolphin, but I am that steady minnow with my sub fee. I have 24+ alts and that is to have varies classes and advanced classes to my liking. With the current system I have geared out BIS gear two of those toons and one is still missing a piece of 258. Just two.

 

With the RNG now on PTS with how I understand how it is going means that I have a 1 in 144 chance to get the item I need after the extremely low chance to get a gear piece that is even over my current gear score. RNG on top of RNG, on top of RNG. on top of a low percentage.

A 1 in 144 change to get the gear piece I want using the vendor on top of a low percentage..

A 1 in 144 chance to get the gear piece I want with renown. on top of a low percentage.

And this is just from the different set bonuses that from what I have read so far are nearly useless???

 

I want the following.

Direct gearing drops from bosses you kill this boss get this piece.

RNG for world drops

Token or scrap fixed prices for doing other content pvp, arena, world bosses, FP, Uprisings, starfighter.

 

But then again god forbid you put in a skill for gear system.

 

Do I want to take eight months to get a top level gear set ya I have done it before, but if it takes any longer I barely have any interest in playing now as I have less and less of a concrete goal. With no goal I have no motivation to do anything.

 

Then there is crafting and easy way to... wait what? I need Isotopes and Resource Matrix 20 of each plus I need white, green, and blue fuel to make the component, graft, or attachment for a MK0 the lowest piece of gear possible.

So I can't play the way I want because I have to do conquest 50k points and I have to do FP and Ops to get the material to make something that I only needed to go out gathering in the past?

 

Gathering when Darvanis was still 9 and 10 it was bliss. When Yavin was the top tier of matts it was bliss easy matts fro your effort an nice change from the rare node scape going form 1 to tier 7 matts. Now you get tier 10 from Iokath rare, ossus in and hour I would be lucky to find four nodes. I assume that there will be few nodes on Onderon if they are not below the terrain to start with making them usless. Even quest objectives are below the terrain inaccessible.

 

I really cant say anything more. I guess I will be like most people with the wrong tactical in place and still have my level 70 set bonus for years to come until I get really lucky and get the set that I can use, OH WAIT IT IS ON THE SKIN AND IT DOES NOT WORK IF YOU ARE 75:mad::mad::mad:.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Hawkebatt

[DWho]

Only problem is you won't have your level 70 set bonus unless you never hit level 75. At level 75 the set bonuses in the current armors go away. Fixing that would go a long way to making people happy I think. At least you wouldn't go backwards in gear just from gaining a level.

[AireStyx]

First, thank you for putting out a reply to PTS feedback.

 

That being said you guys have stated in the live stream that your goal is to get this right so I may as well add my voice to it too:

 

Please provide a direct route for specific tokens and pieces.

 

RNG only gearing is not fun. Please do not return us to "The Thrill of the Hunt"TM. 5.0 caused us to lose a large amount of players because to the point that it was visibly noticable. Going back to RNG gear will cause the same effect.

 

If you have actually learned from 5.0 gearing you should be at worst keeping a system in place similar to what we have at the moment. Changing it back to RNG, which is what we had for Battlemaster in pvp, what we had in the old HM flashpoints to a lesser degree, and 5.0.

 

I want to make sure that I state it clearly, the point is to have a clear path to getting the gear desired with a clear length of time expected. By using RNG for gear there is no way of knowing how long it takes to get gear for my main. I don't care about gearing alts when I NEED to get gear for doing NiM level raiding on the toon I am playing.

[Pandoras_Jar]

It is clear from your post that you guys still do not understand the core issues that players have with this system. I do not believe any of these 'fixes' do much to address the main issues we have with this system.

 

At this point, you should just can it all and go back to Galactic Command cause it was far better than Spoils of War.

 

At least Galactic Command dropped gear that was relevant to my class/spec.

At least Galactic Command dropped MODDABLE gear.

At least Unassembled Components gave PvPers a non-RNG reliant gearing path (even though it was slow as ****).

At least Operations dropped tokens so players could get the gear they needed.

 

We ain't got any of this in Spoils of War.

 

We hated 5.0 gearing because of all the RNG and you've come up with a system that is even worse and has far worse RNG then 5.0 ever did. I cannot fathom the thought process that could've possibly justified all this RNG especially when you all knew we hated it in 5.0. I cannot believe that Keith of all people approved of this gearing nightmare.

 

You can not take moddable gear away from players, that has been a staple of endgame content for all expansions, and expect us to be happy about it. You cannot just increase the chance of moddable gear dropping from endgame content, it has to be guaranteed to drop. All PvP and Operations content, at the bare minimum, should drop moddable gear. Ideally, all the gear that drops from Unidentified token boxes, renown boxes and conquest boxes should also be moddable.

 

The loot boxes you buy from Takanna should always drop moddable gear RELEVANT TO OUR BASE CLASS OR SPEC as well. And yes as long as the cap on Tech Fragments is 3,000 then the costs of items on both Takanna and on Kai Zyikken vendors need to be reduced. Why is there even a cap on Tech Fragments (a legacy currency) anyway?

 

We do not want more gear. We want gear that is relevant that we can use on the characters we are on and that we can customise regardless of its tier. Having gearing tied to item rating will still mean we are forced to wear whatever we can get our hands on regardless if it's for our class/spec or not. This is not ideal. Having any gear drop will not necessarily mean easier gearing for alts either. Sure once you gear out one character you can move the gear to the alt so they can more easily get gear. But getting to the point where you have one character geared is going to be extremely tedious and painful with the way the system is currently laid out.

 

Why do we even need all this RNG anyway? Having multiple set bonuses and tacticals for each class is enough of an artificial time gate for gearing progression that we do not need all these other extra layers of RNG added at all. Most of us will be using multiple set bonuses for different content anyway.

 

We need a non-RNG reliant way to get set bonus gear and we need it yesterday. Ideally, one that works for both PvEers and PvPers (Cause contrary to what some players seem to think Set Bonuses and Tacticals will most certainly have an impact on PvP). Why do you think many of us keep saying how much we liked 4.0 gearing? Because we had clear gearing progression systems that were fair for PvPers and PvEers.

 

At the very least add loot tables to Operations, Flashpoints and PvP so that certain set bonuses and tacticals will only drop from certain content. For example, have general set bonuses and tacticals drop from flashpoints but make a certain tactical or group of Tacticals only drop from one Flashpoint, for example. Then replicate that for PvP and Operations with Set Bonus drops and make it so the more difficult the content, the higher tier the set bonus is?

 

Things would've been so much simpler and better if you guys had just replicated 4.0 gearing. But heaven forbid you upset some casuals who will never PvP anyway.

 

But it's too late for that. The best thing to do now is to take steps to reduce RNG, give us a non-RNG reliant gearing path, make all gear drops for endgame content moddable, increase the number of tech fragment drops + remove cap and make it so the tech fragment vendor guarantees gear relevant to our spec...

 

Please please please change this gearing system. Make me actually want to play the game again. I was really looking forward to this expansion but now I can't even bring myself to log into the game outside of PTS testing. I'm honestly devastated at this point.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Pandoras_Jar

[DzastinBiberi]

This may sound rude, but that's not my intention at all, I'm just being honest.

 

Before 5.0 came out, PTS testers said that the game will lose players if Galactic RNG Command takes place, because players do not want RNG gearing at all. What happened next, BioWare didn't listen and boom, 5.0 dropped and alot of players left.

 

Why?

 

Well, it's really simple to understand.

Before RNG gearing, we had crystals as currency. You do the content you wanna, you get crystals, spend crystals for the gear that you want (zero RNG factor), you buy the gear and with the same gear you go and play harder content to get another tier of crystals to be able to buy another tier of gear for even harder content.

 

System was great, nobody wanted a different system of gearing, I myself loved it, simply because I knew that if I put a certain amount of time doing OPS or any other content, I would be able to buy with enough crystals, the gear that I wanted in the 1st place. No lootboxes, no RNG, no "God help me and drop the gear piece that I need". None of that.

 

You "waste" your time for crystals, get them, but the gear that you want. Simple, effective and it worked for everyone.

 

Back to 5.0 story.

 

We've gotten an RNG fest, grind CXP, grind crates and when you click that "Open" option, hold hands and pray to God to get something useful. You've spent your time grinding, only to get nothing useful or close to nothing.

 

Where was the fairness in that system? It didn't exist. You basicly gave us the gearing system that nobody wanted or asked for. This resulted in loss of players aka swtor population, loss of subscribers - income - profit/money.

 

All of this because someone had the idea that totally random gearing system is, what again? Exciting? Yeah, right...

 

Put it in this perspective.

 

Lets say that you work 180 hours per month, you put the same amount of work, same amount of hours working, right? How would you react if your boss made your salary RNG?

 

Every month you do your 180 working hours, but hey, your RNG boss decided that you should get 1 dollar for your work this month, but maybe the next month when you put the same amount of working hours, maybe you'll be lucky enough to get 5000 $ or 10.000 $. You could also end up getting 10 $.

 

Can you see the problem here? Why people don't want anything RNG in this game?

I hope you do, if you even read this post.

 

Ok now, lets go forward to this test phase.

 

Again, Charles said in one livestream "we've learned from our mistakes from Ossus gearing, it won't happen again etc". Then you go from there and make even worse 5.0 gearing version, "Exciting on roids", lets call it that.

 

Just HOW? How do you ppl go from bad to freaking insane and deluded out of reallity system?

Are you aware that subscribers are paying and playing this game?

Are you aware that we are the people who are paying your bills?

If it wasn't for us, this game would be long dead, no subs, no income, bye bye SW:TOR.

 

And yet still you don't listen to your player base, you take "the feedback" and just proceed with your own idea's "we know what's best for our players" moto, but you don't know what's best for players, players do know what's best for them, players who are paying and playing this for years, some of them are still here since beta phase of the game.

 

How could you be so out of touch with your playerbase? Are you aware that if 6.0 flops, it could be the last exp this game will see? How long we didn't had any expansion since KOTFE disaster? How many years?

 

Now you have the chance to make it right, get in touch with your players, leave your little world known as "I know what's best" , because you clearly don't and you've shown this throughout the years.

Get it in your heads, WE DO NOT WANT RNG.

 

I'm a passionate SWTOR player, I've endured all kinds of wrong decisions, watched this great game sink and sink and sink, watched classes destroyed (Hatred sin anyone?) all of this because you do not know what's best for your playerbase, you do not know what's good or bad for certain classes, I'm really wondering who's giving you some false info about what players want or don't want, 'cause time and time again, you've proven to us that it's not our feedback that you're listening to.

 

Wake up BioWare before it's too late, save what's left of your dignity get down from your high horse!

 

All the best.

 

- Fallen

[NeoBlakkrstal]

From reading Musco's post, coupled with reading the responses to it, it is clear that the new system is completely RNG based. RNGesus hates me, I am already completely frustrated with the current Galactic Command's reliance on RNGesus for gear drops, or lack thereof, this new system is going to be completely ridiculous. I also read that at lvl 75 the current set bonus's from the current gear disappear. If that is the case, coupled with the expected changes to Conquest, which BTW are completely ridiculous, and will end the ability of small guilds to even bother doing Conquest, it will be the end for me. Too much is too much, and this new system is going to be completely over the line.

 

GET RID OF RNG!!

 

A .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% drop rate is NOT FUN!!

Edited September 5, 2019 by NeoBlakkrstal

[Kraysk]

"Yo players we've heard you love exciting RNG so we will give you more RNG so you can RNG while RNG".

 

NO, by Allah, no. We don't need that. Current GC is far less random and yet it's still too random for many of us apparently.

So, we need a compromise.

The solution can be this:

1. Make world drop, heroic missions, trash mobs in group content give us RNG. This is where RNG belongs.

2. Make so the bosses in FPs and OPs drop the gear of our class and spec, the harder the boss - the better IR of gear peace.

3. Make the Vendor for lvl 75 mods that we can buy with new currency, with items available based on our item rating. For example if i play Immortal jugg dressed in 258 i can buy whatever mods of 262 i want, no russian roulette of RNG, no limits by class and spec, just whatever mods i want.

4. Make GSF reward us with decent amount of new currency so we can gearing up that way. In 5.10, i have geared a lot of characters up to 252 by doing only GSF. I want it to be that way in new expansion too.

[SankaCoffee]

The team is still reviewing and planning changes around the crafting feedback. There are changes coming, don't worry. I will post about those once I have specific information to share. In the meantime here are a few of the base takeaways the team is looking at:

• Ossus turned out not to be the best testing ground, we would want you to be able to harvest nodes faster than you did.
  
• We want to increase the crafting materials earned from Flashpoint and Ops bosses.
  • This change is actually in the next PTS build.
    

  [*]Times for schematics and missions need to be reduced.

  [*]Jawa Junk prices aren't likely to change, but we want to increase gains of Jawa Junk.

  [*]Want to make adjustments to the Conquest Materials requirement or inflow.

Again, I will share specific changes when I have them.

 

-eric

 

I actually liked longer companions mission. It is so annoying to send companions on missions every 3 minutes, that I don't send them at all. Personally I would prefer even longer mission time with increased outcome. Maybe you can increase mission outcome by influence level instead of lowering mission time.

 

If you increase gains of Jawa Junk you will most likely kill lower grade mats gathering. I don't see any reason why you just don't lower the price.

 

Please remove RNG at least from fleet vendors. Its like if you go to buy some food to the store and you will get broccoli or some vegan junk instead of nice juicy steak you wanted...

[nyrkverse]

So what's the plan here? Go ahead with RNG everything despite all the feedback loudly telling you NO, watch players unsubbing in droves for a couple of months and then scramble to fix it until the system is finally decent next April? Because we had that in 5.0 already.

 

Please provide a clear, direct route to gear that does not rely on RNG. And no unmoddable crap, thank you.

Edited September 5, 2019 by nyrkverse

[kelloggsone]

I won't be part of this RNG shenanigans. And i'm pretty sure that i'm not the only one who thinks that way. Feeling completely disappointed and deceived. Got nothing more to say.

[DeannaVoyager]

There's not much to add to what people have been saying, so I'll just repeat it: get rid of RNG gearing. I want a goal I can achieve, and I don't want to spent my time sorting out green unmoddable crap loot "in case I need it" for higher iRating. It will be painful and time consuming enough to swap gear around from what I use for playing to what I need to be wearing when opening crates.

 

Also, I want to buy what I need with my tech fragments, I don't want to buy a lottery ticket. If I want to buy a lottery ticket, I will do it in CM. If you force me to use my ingame salary (tech frags) to a lottery ticket instead, and not allow me to buy what I actually need to play the content I enjoy (progression raiding), I will have to start looking for another game. And tbh I am already doing it after spending a few days on PTS.

 

I have played since 2012, and didn't think I'd quit unless the servers will be closed, no matter how terrible some changes have been. After 5.0 I quit playing PVP because you ruined it, but found PVE still quite enjoyable. This is the first time I've thought about quitting the game completely, after 7 years of intensive playing.

[Batwer]

"Yo players we've heard you love exciting RNG so we will give you more RNG so you can RNG while RNG".

That's what they think. This is called distorted perception. Is a disease. BW people are often affected. It's up to the company itself. Everybody goes crazy there. :D

Edited September 5, 2019 by Batwer

[Ollmich]

These changes are welcomed but as others have pointed out the core issue still has to be addressed. Randomness infests every aspect of new gearing system, and lots of people aren’t happy about it.

 

If you insist on 19 tiers and Kai being a supplementary way of acquiring gear how about adding tokens to ops bosses and PvP weeklies that will allow players to buy moddable gear with set bonus from a vendor based on their current item rating? Token + tech frags = desired item.

 

As for me -- I want to play content I enjoy, not spend all my time grinding content I don't like in order to acquire the wrong gear piece or currencies that only give me a slim chance of getting the gear piece I want. I want to say "I need my Serendipitous Assault relic", and then I go grind content that will give exactly that to me, or give me the currencies where I can go to a vendor and just buy it directly.

This.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Ollmich

[Pinkasaurus]

While I am not fond of rng I am less fond of gating everything behind operations. If everything is bound to legacy then I can find a use for items regardless of how much I am blessed by the RNG. My major complaint about the current system is the lack of left legacy bound items.

[TonyTricicolo]

RNG would never be tolerated. It screams scam. It literally is a lottery. You pay for a chance to get something. What? Who the hell in their right mind would do that? I'm going to the store to just randomly buy something said no one ever! Gangsters go to jail for this. Yet video game companies get away with it. It's not even regulated. These companies found a loop hole in the system and are exploiting the sh7t out of it. No conscience and no soul. Just make that money. Rant off....

[Banderal]

We do not want RNG AT ALL for our gearing.

 

+1. Can I plus more than 1?

[Scribbed]

I haven't played for the better part of 3 years. I've only just come back, because I couldn't stand the RNG that is the endgame of The Division 2. And now you've doubled down on even their ridiculous rng.

 

As a suplimentary system, RNG is fine, but for your core gearing progression, there needs to be a clear path to get the gear that you want. Even if it takes a long time, we need to know that all our work will pay off.

 

In the Division 2 you can play forever and it is statistically possible for you to never get any gear that benefits you. Don't begin to think about bringing a system like that into the game.

[KendraP]

After reading your feedback, I must surmise that you think the RNG is slightly skewed towards unrewarding and would like to get *checks notes* more random drops than you are currently getting. I was worried you were going to suggest bringing back targeted grinds for gear you actually had an interest in using. Phew. Dodged that bullet.

 

I'm saying the same thing practically everyone else is, which is that rng gearing sucks. How could you possibly twist that into I want more rng? Further, why pick me out in particular when there are 8 pages saying the same thing?

[Syroe]

I'm saying the same thing practically everyone else is, which is that rng gearing sucks. How could you possibly twist that into I want more rng? Further, why pick me out in particular when there are 8 pages saying the same thing?

 

I'm sorry, I made an attempt at sarcasm and forgot that tone just doesn't get conveyed properly in writing.

 

Also, can we all just take a moment to appreciate the sheer insanity of 6.0? After 3 years(give or take) of being told and shown by the community that making RNG the main drive behind the gearing process is unacceptable, the team(whose public-facing devs have made a point of clearly stating that lessons have been learned and feedback heard) comes up with an even more RNG-driven method of gear progression.

 

This feels like an episode of Tom and Jerry. But with a script written by Kafka and story-boards drawn by Dali.

[rubint]

- - INCOMING MESSAGE - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

- - FROM: UNAR - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

- - SUBJECT: RNG - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

NO.

NON.

NEIN.

NAO.

NU.

NA.

NAH.

NI.

NE.

NEE.

NEJ.

NEI.

NIE.

NET.

NEM.

 

TLDR: NO. NO! NOOOOO! JUST NO.

 

NOT yours faithfully,

UNITED NOES AGAINST RNG

 

- - END OF MESSAGE - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[CooperReagly]

One more voice in favor of eliminating RNG from the core progression path. I want to play knowing I'm working toward OPs ready gear (set bonus, moddable, purple/gold, augment worthy), not the possibility of such.

 

RNG is bad. Don't make this mistake again, please.

Edited September 5, 2019 by CooperReagly

[darkapprentice]

They don't want Kai to be the main source of gear, but as stated by other players, we need a clear path to gear because there isn't one at this point. Seems like every option to supplementary to each other. It makes no sense at all. What needs to be done first is properly design a clear-cut, obvious path to gearing, then you can work on the supplementary systems. Not just design a bunch of random inconsistent paths and push them all out at once.

 

The last 2-3 years I felt like I wasn't even playing the game (having far less desire to play than any previous expansion aside), but instead playing the garbage Galactic Command system. Why exactly would something worse make me want to play more? I already have little to no luck in real lottery, why would I get excited over an even more convoluted pure lottery-based system in a video game where I, as well as most of us, come to HAVE FUN. Many of us already have jobs, we don't need this to feel like a second job where we don't even get paid.

 

 

For the last year or so, I've had a feeling this "expansion" will either help the game or destroy it. If what I've read in this thread is shared by much more than the minority that replied here, I'm not sure I'll have high hopes for the future of the game. 5.0 was a disaster right off the bat and this could possibly compound the issues.

Edited September 5, 2019 by darkapprentice