So... apparently this game isn't the only one who had post-launch issues...

[Forsbacka]

I think most people agree with you, I know I do. However, most if not all MMOs and other games are released this way. Look at Madden. There are bugs in 2012 that have been in the game since Madden 2001 on Playstation when I first started playing the game. At least over time Bioware will improve the game.

 

 

 

That remains to be seen.

[Larlar]

You were chased out of the other incredibly important thread because your contribution was useless, and it was actively derailing the serious discussion that was going on there.

 

Just because you aren't having or aren't noticing the problem doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

The issue in the other thread is serious and if it isn't fixed it will cause great damage to this game, as people will cancel en masse. None of us want that to happen. I think you're pretty pathetic for seeking backup through a thread like this which isn't relevant to the issues being discussed on the other thread. You basically just need to grow up.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Larlar

[Moxxi]

I can see from your post that you are very mature and not kid at all.

Im 37 and prolly played games lot more than most people here. Me and you just dont share same oppinion. What i would have expected was to see product from 2011 and that makers of this game would have learned from good and bad things of WoW cause it set the bar. This game has nothing differentnew things from WoW apart from voice acting and havent seen so bad action delay even in NES games or any game ive ever played. I wonder if Bioware or EA is responsible of launcing this game way too early without basic MMO components. You can be Bioware fanboi as much as you want and take all ****they throw at you but im sure that quite lot people will stop after 30 days and never watch back.

 

If you were playing WOW at launch, how does your opinion change the fact that the servers were down and crashing constantly?

 

Blizzard gave everyone 30 days of game time to compensate for the constant crashes, sever queues and bugs they had at launch. The game was almost completely unplayable in the first month. You remember, right? Right?

 

Because someone called you on your ******** doesn't mean they are a fanboy.

 

PS because WOW launch sucked doesn't mean SWTOR is great, and vice versa. However you cannot dispute that this launch was way smoother than WOW's, easily the smoothest launch I have ever been a part of.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Moxxi

[dreadpirateandy]

Who gives a **** about wow 7 years ago, wouldn't you think after 7 years these mistakes wouldn't be repeated? $130 million dollar game and it's plagued with bugs and glitches that have not been addressed.

 

People shouldn't be paying $60 to beta test a live game

 

What makes you think that the launch problems that TOR is experiencing are the same that WoW experienced?

 

Oh, that's right, you just assumed and pulled that out of....nowhere.

 

1. A problem that you see in-game can have hundreds or thousands of different causes underneath the surface. The cause and solution are anything but the same as those seen 7 years ago. So yea, maybe they can prevent some problems that would have arisen 7 years ago. But these are not those problems.

 

2. Welcome to the internet. It has bugs. If you want a bug-free game, go play checkers. If you want to join the real world and be realistic, then sit your noisy butt down and be patient like everyone else.

 

3. Do you have any idea how much $130 million is with regards to a modern video game, an MMO, an RPG, a game with tons and tons of employees and big name actors working on it, a game that needs a full-time support staff just to make it run? No, you don't. Go play internet accountant somewhere else.

[Niil]

I Never said there wasn't an issue - I just said that me and a large amount of other users weren't experiencing the issue that you individuals are inflating it to be.

 

 

WoW did have the issue I talked about, believe it or not - it had the login queue issue, which destroyed the ability of others to log on and enjoy the game. This was a month after release, and a fellow WoW player had the same issue.

 

If you can pull up a response which blatantly says, "I am not experiencing this issues, therefore, it does not exist" then feel free to do so.

 

My point of the matter is, every MMORPG is going to have issues. Nobody can be 100% prepared.

 

The reasoning behind copying my post from another thread is to further reinforce my statement that a LOT of MMORPGs had issues, and you are all inflating TOR's to a degree at which it appears to be HORRIBLE, UNEXPECTED and NEW.

 

These types of issues will continue forever, until they are corrected by the game developer.

 

Comprehension is sort of a requirement when you want to debate. It's essential that you take the statement at face value and not argue with what you think someone was trying to say. I did not claim you said the problem didn't exist. I stated that you were dismissing people's issues based on your own personal experience. You did that. I'm not in the position of having to prove anything to you. The writing is in the other thread. Go read your own posts.

 

As far as the issues WoW had, again, the point made by the other poster was that WoW did not have "this" issue (this being the responsiveness issue). What other issues WoW had are moot. You can't strip a sentence out of a post and then argue with it out of context as well as arguing with something it didn't say. Strawman much? The person who you responded to was making the point that a gameplay issue "like this" will make or break games in the long term. I'm not saying I agree or disagree. I'm just saying your fallacious response doesn't address that statement. You can post a wall of text detailing issues WoW had all you want. To someone who read it who is being intellectually honest about the argument and points made, that repeated attempt to argue a point that wasn't even made just highlights your inability to logically debate.

 

As far as games having issues, you're right. Games like these are going to have issues. And just as you're within your right to post that, in itself it's redundant. Most people who have played MMO's understand that. However, your post condescends to people who are detailing their frustration with those issues. Something that isn't redundant. Unless you're assuming that everyone posting is new to MMO's in general, which I think is extremely naive. So either you're naive as hell (doubtful) or you're just ignorant of the reason why people post such things in the first place and feel the need to condescend to and berate those. The former makes you seem simple, not malicious, but not very wise about the way forums work. The latter makes you a troll.

 

So which is it? Are you simple and naive, or are you a troll? The latter is my bet. Moreso because of your refusal to actually argue points being made and the many fallacies you toss around like they're actual points in a debate.

[Sinister-Sith]

You were chased out of the other incredibly important thread because your contribution was useless, and it was actively derailing the serious discussion that was going on there.

 

Just because you aren't having or aren't noticing the problem doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

The issue in the other thread is serious and if it isn't fixed it will cause great damage to this game, as people will cancel en masse. None of us want that to happen. I think you're pretty pathetic for seeking backup through a thread like this which isn't relevant to the issues being discussed on the other thread. You basically just need to grow up.

Incredibly important thread, which is technically in the wrong forum...

 

I never once said that the issue didn't exist - I just said that I didn't notice it to the degree at which you people are inflating it.

 

And, "pathetic" because I wanted to demonstrate that I'm not the only ones on this forum who find the issues as "game-breaking" as you folks do? How is that pathetic?

 

I think that's called "flaming". My contribution was hardly useless - I just wanted to address the notion that EVERY game has their issues... Just because I'm more patient than the rest of you complainants doesn't mean that my contribution was useless. From what I have gathered, everybody seems to be spoiled. "I WANT THIS... NOW! I DESERVE TO HAVE IT!".

 

I pay the same fees as you all, I paid $150 for the CE... Am I complaining? No. because I know that EVERY single MMORPG has had stability issues, lag issues, etc. For all you know, it could be an issue on the server(s).

Edited December 29, 2011 by Sinister-Sith

[Xzulld]

Actually you were being bashed because your points were fallacies. You were dismissing people's claim of having a problem based on your personal experience when it's proven that there is an issue. There are numerous videos demonstrating it. And that was the second thread on the subject because the first one was capped out. It was restarted by a CM of all people. You were strawmanning arguments (example below). Fallacies != logic. You started this thread by copying a post you wrote in the other thread, or maybe you're copying it all over the place. It was wrong in that context, in this it's accurate but still ignorant. The person you responded to said WoW didn't have "this issue" not WoW had "no issues." There's a big difference between those two statements. WoW didn't have the issue listed in the other thread. It had many other issues though. But it's still ignorant to think that people aren't going to complain about something they have a problem with. Carry on with your trolling, as that's about all it is.

 

Id love, no like really, to have a detail of those fallacious comments, we could then dissemble the argument into premises and conclusion to try to determine/highlight each piece and show the error, or correct usage of logic.

 

Really claiming it was illogical without supporting quotes is as bad as claiming one was called delusional without the context.

 

 

---What is interesting to me is that I work for a software development company, I do testing and QA of our product as one of my job roles. I was a part of the retail launch of wow, I remember issues with GCD getting stuck, delays in button clicks, characters lagging through walls, I remember ALL kinds of issues that seem so reminiscent to what is being described here. HOWEVER, I have not during the retail release of SWTOR experienced any of these issues. (Personal Anecdote)

 

I remember a patch that was put out probably 3-4 months after retail release that changed the net code for client to server communication for wow, and it really cleaned up the kinds of issues you are describing.

 

Well each to there own, I would encourage everyone to take a class on logic, and the philosophy of science. These are big steps in the education of a person that will increase critical thinking 10 fold easily.

 

I see a lot of rhetoric, hyperbole, and outright fallacious logic ALL over these and other game forums. It is almost a pet hobby of mine to dissemble bad arguments.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Xzulld

[dekey]

I'm confused.

 

Is this a thread made to prove that wow also had a rough launch, using forums posts made 2 years after the launch?

 

Isn't that kind of just backing up anecdotal evidence with older anecdotal evidence?

 

Besides noone is saying WoW had a better launch, just that this launch also wasn't great. (Not my opinion btw, I think it's been ok)

[dreadpirateandy]

I'm confused.

 

Is this a thread made to prove that wow also had a rough launch, using forums posts made 2 years after the launch?

 

Isn't that kind of just backing up anecdotal evidence with older anecdotal evidence?

 

Besides noone is saying WoW had a better launch, just that this launch also wasn't great. (Not my opinion btw, I think it's been ok)

 

Yes, yes, and because most of the BW anti-fanboys are Blizzard fanboys, even if they don't specifically mention WoW, they're referring to it nevertheless. Plus WoW is the industry leader and the standard by which other games are judged, that also matters.

[isorfidia]

I played Anarchy Online at launch.

[Xzulld]

I'm confused.

 

Is this a thread made to prove that wow also had a rough launch, using forums posts made 2 years after the launch?

 

Isn't that kind of just backing up anecdotal evidence with older anecdotal evidence?

 

Besides noone is saying WoW had a better launch, just that this launch also wasn't great. (Not my opinion btw, I think it's been ok)

 

Most assuredly correct, unless the argument is one such as follows.

 

Game X had issues that bothered players enough to post on the forums the same as game y.

 

In which case that is supporting evidence. Speaking to the tone of the player base this would be considered supporting evidence.

 

Patch notes would be an objective way to compare launch issues. I however feel extremely apathetic toward any kind of comparison in that regard . . . I just dont think it matters.

 

Personally I have not had a better launch experience in a game to date.

[Sinister-Sith]

Comprehension is sort of a requirement when you want to debate. It's essential that you take the statement at face value and not argue with what you think someone was trying to say. I did not claim you said the problem didn't exist. I stated that you were dismissing people's issues based on your own personal experience. You did that. I'm not in the position of having to prove anything to you. The writing is in the other thread. Go read your own posts.

You most certainly implied it with the statement as shown...

 

Actually you were being bashed because your points were fallacies. You were dismissing people's claim of having a problem based on your personal experience when it's proven that there is an issue.

 

What relevance is there in stating that it was proven that there was an issue, if you weren't trying to imply that I described the contrary?

 

As far as the issues WoW had, again, the point made by the other poster was that WoW did not have "this" issue (this being the responsiveness issue). What other issues WoW had are moot. You can't strip a sentence out of a post and then argue with it out of context as well as arguing with something it didn't say. Strawman much? The person who you responded to was making the point that a gameplay issue "like this" will make or break games in the long term. I'm not saying I agree or disagree. I'm just saying your fallacious response doesn't address that statement. You can post a wall of text detailing issues WoW had all you want. To someone who read it who is being intellectually honest about the argument and points made, that repeated attempt to argue a point that wasn't even made just highlights your inability to logically debate.

He was implying that WoW did not have the log-in issue, and I do believe he made reference to it by quoting my post..

 

Originally Posted by Sinister-Sith

If I do recall correctly, people had issues logging in to WoW for a number of weeks before the issues were resolved. The game came out like nine days ago, of course there will be bugs, errors, glitches, etc. You can't expect a PERFECT game when it was JUST released. No game has ever been perfect on launch; not one. That being said, this game is the closest to perfection I've ever seen in terms of an MMORPG launch.

 

and the following response...

 

Note: WoW and EQ didn't have this issue and it was one of their reasons for a long success

 

Take care.

He quoted my post and said, "this" issue. If he was making reference to the responsiveness issue, then he should have clearly stated, "the responsiveness" issue, otherwise it just looks like he was referring to my post.

 

As far as games having issues, you're right. Games like these are going to have issues. And just as you're within your right to post that, in itself it's redundant. Most people who have played MMO's understand that. However, your post condescends to people who are detailing their frustration with those issues. Something that isn't redundant. Unless you're assuming that everyone posting is new to MMO's in general, which I think is extremely naive. So either you're naive as hell (doubtful) or you're just ignorant of the reason why people post such things in the first place and feel the need to condescend to and berate those. The former makes you seem simple, not malicious, but not very wise about the way forums work. The latter makes you a troll.

I never once "condescended" anybody, but rather tried to bring light to the fact that patience is a virtue. The game has been out nine days. I could understand if it were two months, but... wow.

 

And, my question is, "How many people were in the beta?". The reason I ask is simply because an individual at one point made reference to this issue during the beta. Perhaps they (Bioware) believed that it would be corrected in the final version of the game, and they were unsure of its source? Perhaps they thought it may have been a minor server issue? Who knows? It's hard to say. I'd like to see the complaint threads during the BETA testing, please. I'd be interested to see them.

 

So which is it? Are you simple and naive, or are you a troll? The latter is my bet. Moreso because of your refusal to actually argue points being made and the many fallacies you toss around like they're actual points in a debate.

Seem like they're points to me. I've been involved in a lot of logical debates in my time.

[Itose]

What is the point in this post OP?

 

Whether WoW launched smoothly or not it has no effect on TOR launch, they are totally unrelated.

[Niil]

Id love, no like really, to have a detail of those fallacious comments, we could then dissemble the argument into premises and conclusion to try to determine/highlight each piece and show the error, or correct usage of logic.

 

Really claiming it was illogical without supporting quotes is as bad as claiming one was called delusional without the context.

 

 

---What is interesting to me is that I work for a software development company, I do testing and QA of our product as one of my job roles. I was a part of the retail launch of wow, I remember issues with GCD getting stuck, delays in button clicks, characters lagging through walls, I remember ALL kinds of issues that seem so reminiscent to what is being described here. HOWEVER, I have not during the retail release of SWTOR experienced any of these issues. (Personal Anecdote)

 

You presume that it's my responsibility to bring you up to speed on a conversation that's happening in multiple threads? I'd love to debate the matter with you, but if you're not capable of reading the posts for yourself it's not my job to spoon feed you post content. Feel free. Go read through the other thread. Or just click on the post history of the OP and review it. Come back and respond when you actually have an argument to present. Otherwise I'll just ignore future posts of yours and continue my discussion with the OP like I was doing.

[Sinister-Sith]

What is the point in this post OP?

 

Whether WoW launched smoothly or not it has no effect on TOR launch, they are totally unrelated.

 

It has relevance as both are MMORPGs, and people expect MMORPGs to be flawless upon release, which just isn't going to happen.

 

To be honest, however... I do not see any major problems with this game. Perhaps the PVP may be a little bugged, but as I said before, it can and will be fixed in due time.

[Nicodareus]

I'm not sure about everyone else, but I have not minded ANY launch problems.

 

The problems that I DO mind are the ones that involve basic features missing from the game. This is not a 'new MMO' problem. It's a problem caused by the fact that Bioware spent so much time and money on voice acting every dialogue option that they ignored too much of the actual GAME DESIGN part of it.

 

To name a couple:

 

Ilum PvP zone. There is no UI feature for displaying who owns what. It actually TAKES UP QUEST LOG SPACE. 1/5 of your quest space is gone simply because they decided to make the zone status as quests as an easy way out. Sure you can abandon them day after day, but wow is that ever tedious. They only thing that explains this is they ran out of time and tossed it in there. Hopefully it gets fixed.

 

The unresponsive controls/hotkeys. Already tons of threads involving this.

 

Likewise for the whole UI thing.

 

-Companion bar overlapping another bar, which makes you unable to use left bar hotkeys. Sure you can open/close it all the time, but again, wow, terrible. Especially considering your companion breaks CC's, so you have to toggle their AoE abilities on and off all the time. It WOULD be easier if you could shuffle their abilities around, but no. You have to rebind the keys if you want, but then you are screwed on the next companion. Sorry Bioware, did you even think about this part?

 

-No scaling feature? Seriously? I'm no programmer, but that seems simple enough.

 

-Terrible chat functions! Again, with no scaling feature, if you want multiple windows, good luck. Each window takes up a stupid amount of space and you cannot make them unclickable.

 

 

I could rant on, but it's all been said before.

 

I have nothing against Bioware, they are a good company and make excellent single player games.

 

However, they are not breaking any new ground here. This is an MMO, people have much higher expectations.

 

And as people have said, you don't compare this game to where WoW was when it came out. You compare them AS THEY ARE NOW. And no, this is not from a content standpoint. This is a basic functionality standpoint. Frankly, I could not care less about them adding more content for a couple months. I just want them to add basic features that should have been in the game at launch.

 

I enjoy this game, don't get me wrong. But they seriously need to step it up and start responding with specifics about what they are doing to improve the game.

[Forsbacka]

If you were playing WOW at launch, how does your opinion change the fact that the servers were down and crashing constantly?

 

Blizzard gave everyone 30 days of game time to compensate for the constant crashes, sever queues and bugs they had at launch. The game was almost completely unplayable in the first month. You remember, right? Right?

 

Because someone called you on your ******** doesn't mean they are a fanboy.

 

PS because WOW launch sucked doesn't mean SWTOR is great, and vice versa. However you cannot dispute that this launch was way smoother than WOW's, easily the smoothest launch I have ever been a part of.

 

It was 2004 and they had no idea whats coming. Atleast Bioware had clear view from sevr capcities and how many are gonna strat playing and they let people join on servers in waves. I got early access permit on friday and i got to play 1 hour over the weekend since didnt want to queue 4-7 hours to a server that my friends played. Game itself had better gameplay at 2004 than this game has at 2011 and felt more "alive" and that was the thing that made it so popular.

[dekey]

It has relevance as both are MMORPGs, and people expect MMORPGs to be flawless upon release, which just isn't going to happen

 

Yes but we also expect our expectations to be missed as we know this is normally the case. We can still voice our feelings on it though. It's ok, we don't want to watch the world burn.

[Jamus_Divinus]

Personally I have not had a better launch experience in a game to date.

 

I agree. I started in the first wave of players allowed into early access on the 13th. Have since played over 100hrs easily. Have crashed once. Have had zero missions bug out. Didn't have any FPS issues or lag. Had to queue a few times for 30mins. The end

 

I understand 'some vocal players' did have some problems at launch. I just didn't experience any myself so I have to say that TOR's launch was flawless for me.

 

You want to see a buggy game? Try Skyrim lol. Crashed over 20 times in the last week on that game. Not an MMO I know.

 

All of my friends are ingame playing. Few if any have had launch problems. I understand some were affected but let's not shout FAIL LAUNCH if the majority had a very smooth one.

 

My opinion based on my experience (and that of my friends ingame). Not speaking for others.

[Grammarye]

I guess I just find it strange that people think that server tech has really changed since 2004. Sorry, but it's the same CPU, hard drive, memory thing with a network card that it was back then too. Sure, bits are faster or more parallel, but the hardware conceptually is essentially unchanged, and it's not like anyone has re-written TCP, UDP, or IPv4 lately. Once you're into software, ah well now you're comparing apples & oranges, because for sure Blizzard (to pick at random) didn't give Bioware their server network code. It will have been done from scratch with a smattering from WAR and any other MMO IPs EA owns at best.

 

You can stress test all you like, but there's no stress test like the real thing.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Grammarye

[Folgrin]

Compared to beta TOR has made some Vast improvements. I'm pretty impressed with launch. IMO its the best mmo launches I've been a part of. Remember AoC, that was a fun one...

[Umbral]

Read what users had to say about the WoW launch here...

 

http://vnboards.ign.com/world_of_warcraft_general_board/b19789/107608654/p1

 

 

 

 

 

Just continue reading, and you will find that WoW had a great NUMBER of issues post-launch.

 

Also to further reinforce my statement regarding the log in issues...

 

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=93823

 

I am not worried, nor do I fear about TOR's fate. As you can see, the website in itself is irrelevant to both games, but the post is about WoW's launch... so, you can see that I'm not the only one who experienced that issue at launch. xD

 

The difference with WoW and pretyy much every game we've seen released since (which more and more includes SWTOR everyday) is that WoW very very quickly addressed the issues that gamers had (note I said gamers, not RPers, social butterflies, immersionists, etc etc) and didn't stick to some arbitrary "we believe xxxxxxx so we won't be adding that" statements made foolishly early on.

 

They saw what were major issues and desires of major groups of players, let those players know it was being worked on and would be fixed or in the game soon, and then delivered. That's why people stuck around and played through the lack of things and the performance issues, and that's why when they started to deliver these things the word started to spread.

[Sinister-Sith]

The difference with WoW and pretyy much every game we've seen released since (which more and more includes SWTOR everyday) is that WoW very very quickly addressed the issues that gamers had (note I said gamers, not RPers, social butterflies, immersionists, etc etc) and didn't stick to some arbitrary "we believe xxxxxxx so we won't be adding that" statements made foolishly early on.

 

They saw what were major issues and desires of major groups of players, let those players know it was being worked on and would be fixed or in the game soon, and then delivered. That's why people stuck around and played through the lack of things and the performance issues, and that's why when they started to deliver these things the word started to spread.

 

Keep in mind that WoW had very nasty issues even after their first month.

[Folgrin]

Compared to beta TOR has made some Vast improvements. I'm pretty impressed with launch. IMO its the best mmo launches I've been a part of. Remember AoC, that was a fun one...

[TheHauntingBard]

One difference is that a lot of MMO's in the past had more technical limitations than now.

 

There is simply no excuse for the lack of polish and bugs in the game, some of them are known long ago in the beta.

I might as well compare SWTOR to EQ if we go down that road but last time I checked it's almost 2012.