Operative suvivability?

[Ttoilleekul]

I was the player in the video, so I can mention I also used a flashbang, the shield/absorb and the root purge/heal utility. So, in that brief moment, I burned almost every cooldown I had. If I don't have everything up as I did, it's likely I do not survive.

 

This was a clear case of the other team not closing out an easy kill. I should have died in that stunlock but they just never got in that extra attack they needed. Their mistake afterwards was to not chase me down because I had almost nothing left to use.

 

So, with respect to the discussion on whether specific cases like this deserve a whole class nerf? You can clearly see how the other team handled it. I'd say in my case it had more to do with being lucky than too good.

 

Surviving a 1vs6 is seriously not normal. We don't need to balance the game around that. I would say in these situations people need to look closer at player skill before class balance.

 

If this class was actually immortal, then I'm amazed because I see so few people playing them in PVP. This class has a pretty high skill ceiling for PVP and I don't think engaging groups is as easy to pull off as people make it sound.

 

I certainly don't suggest that its easy to go 1v6 or even 1v3 at a turret, and for the most part I agree with what you've said. Where I disagree, is that high - skill level or not, you only see Operatives and Scoundrels doing it. Those 6 players that failed to defeat you may well be sub - par in skill, but had you used other class there instead of Scoundrel, you would have died. On Darth Malgus I see an Operative going solo at a turret and outnumbered in every other match. There's a few guys that are known for it, and if you land on their team everyone knows they don't want anyone else with them, they prefer to go solo. It doesn't matter that they are highly skilled, the fact is you can't do this with any other class. And for that reason I do think the class needs to be nerfed.

 

It's still possible to retain its top tier 1v1 status while nerfing it enough so that the class can' no longer make a mockery of half the enemy team. Was it not you yourself in your opening comment that said you don't fear for your survival no matter how many you are up against? What else is the definition of OP if not that?

 

There was a time when Skanks could go 1v3 or 4 at a time, and they were nerfed, so why not Operatives?

Edited May 30, 2019 by Ttoilleekul

[Fellow-Canadian]

I certainly don't suggest that its easy to go 1v6 or even 1v3 at a turret, and for the most part I agree with what you've said. Where I disagree, is that high - skill level or not, you only see Operatives and Scoundrels doing it. Those 6 players that failed to defeat you may well be sub - par in skill, but had you used other class there instead of Scoundrel, you would have died. On Darth Malgus I see an Operative going solo at a turret and outnumbered in every other match. There's a few guys that are known for it, and if you land on their team everyone knows they don't want anyone else with them, they prefer to go solo. It doesn't matter that they are highly skilled, the fact is you can't do this with any other class. And for that reason I do think the class needs to be nerfed.

 

It's still possible to retain its top tier 1v1 status while nerfing it enough so that the class can' no longer make a mockery of half the enemy team. Was it not you yourself in your opening comment that said you don't fear for your survival no matter how many you are up against? What else is the definition of OP if not that?

 

There was a time when Skanks could go 1v3 or 4 at a time, and they were nerfed, so why not Operatives?

 

My comment about fearing no group is because I know I'm a really good PVP'er. I know exactly how to engage the group and when I need to back off.

 

Generally speaking though, in 1vs6 the scoundrel always dies. So, how do you solve for the 0.1% chance a group of players misfired and let a scoundrel get away? I think the devil is in the details here, so what changes would you make? Have you left room to consider that other classes can also get out of the same situation? If I were playing a mara, I would've popped god bubble, warzone medpack, AOE mez, then put on my quick running shoes and vanished TFO. Nerf maras? Sure I reappear, but I've run so far away they really have to go out of their way to kill me.

 

1vs6 is a pretty extreme thing to balance for, but 1vs2 and 1vs3 engagements to some extent are completely doable engagements for scoundrels. The only reason a scoundrel can engage groups so well is that they have heals and can reliably vanish when things get too hot to reset the fight. I think something that really hasn't been mentioned yet is the mobility provided by roll. You see a scoundrel engaging a group and I'll show you an amazing player rolling around perfectly. If you can constantly break line of sight then nobody can hurt you. I think a large sense of frustration lies in the fact people find themselves unable to stay on top of the scoundrel long enough to eat through the hots. If you can control the scoundrel and stop them from rolling they go down quickly. Roll is life.

 

There are other classes that can self-sustain themselves with their own healing and can also be successful in 1v2 or 1v3+ encounters. Sure, you might argue there is a skill or class composition imbalance between players there, but you'd have to explain why not for scoundrels too?

[Ttoilleekul]

My comment about fearing no group is because I know I'm a really good PVP'er. I know exactly how to engage the group and when I need to back off.

 

Generally speaking though, in 1vs6 the scoundrel always dies. So, how do you solve for the 0.1% chance a group of players misfired and let a scoundrel get away? I think the devil is in the details here, so what changes would you make? Have you left room to consider that other classes can also get out of the same situation? If I were playing a mara, I would've popped god bubble, warzone medpack, AOE mez, then put on my quick running shoes and vanished TFO. Nerf maras? Sure I reappear, but I've run so far away they really have to go out of their way to kill me.

 

1vs6 is a pretty extreme thing to balance for, but 1vs2 and 1vs3 engagements to some extent are completely doable engagements for scoundrels. The only reason a scoundrel can engage groups so well is that they have heals and can reliably vanish when things get too hot to reset the fight. I think something that really hasn't been mentioned yet is the mobility provided by roll. You see a scoundrel engaging a group and I'll show you an amazing player rolling around perfectly. If you can constantly break line of sight then nobody can hurt you. I think a large sense of frustration lies in the fact people find themselves unable to stay on top of the scoundrel long enough to eat through the hots. If you can control the scoundrel and stop them from rolling they go down quickly. Roll is life.

 

There are other classes that can self-sustain themselves with their own healing and can also be successful in 1v2 or 1v3+ encounters. Sure, you might argue there is a skill or class composition imbalance between players there, but you'd have to explain why not for scoundrels too?

 

Your opening comment says it all, you can't go in like that with any other class against so many and "just know when to back off." Sure in a chain stun a Sent / Mara could survive in the way you described. Same way a Guardian can survive by popping FD while chain stunned, then Awe and blade blitz out of line of sight, and if you have it selected, Focused freedom for that extra bit of speed. I've done it many times. But its still not the same as what Scoundrels do a regular basis. Surviving a chain stun and then getting out of there is something a lot of classes can do, but going up against 2 or 3 and holding them off indefinitely, this is the domain of Scoundrels and only scoundrels. Like I said it doesn't matter if the other players suck, no other class can do it. Scoundrels will roll around the turret all day long and never feel the sweat of danger vs 3 players, until they finally get them all by the turret and bam they pop the flash grenade and cap. No other class can engage 3 bad players and be confident of not dying for as long as it takes to get the cap.

 

So how would I nerf them? Simple, I would increase the cooldown times of their defences. Or I would increase the cooldown time of the roll. As a trade off give them a higher armour rating. This way they would still be formidable 1v1 class but would not be able to make a mockery of multiple players.

[Rion_Starkiller]

A good sorc/sage can do the same thing at a node, but they just don't normally guard for some reason. And if they attack a node, you can see them coming a mile away. But they can absolutely hold a node indefinitely against 2 or 3 if played well. Edited June 2, 2019 by Rion_Starkiller

[abhaxus]

The only thing that leth op is good for in PVP is 1v4s against bads. Sounds like your teammates blew their stuns after they were already outside their burst windows. The only thing I "fear" on my op is getting chaim netted. Missing a roll heal is death in almost any figjt.

[foxmob]

lmao: Pill Cosby. brilliant!

[SlimeyDoom]

Although I dont main op, on, juggs even if they stun you while you have reflect on, you'll still gonna reflect that stun dmg and thats a fact.

 

That’s because saber reflect has nothing to do with dodge chance

[BobaStyx]

You could always roll one and see how easy it is...??? I guarantee you'll see the difference in the skill cap between a person who is new to the class versus somebody like myself or friend that's been playing the class since double hidden strike was a thing.

[Ttoilleekul]

You could always roll one and see how easy it is...??? I guarantee you'll see the difference in the skill cap between a person who is new to the class versus somebody like myself or friend that's been playing the class since double hidden strike was a thing.

 

I do have one. I've been playing it for the sole purpose of learning how to counter them. I will never main one because I just don't like them, not fun to me. But I have learnt a few things from playing one and sparring with my friends. For example, I now know that when rooted in place by a Scoundrel / Operative so that you can't even turn for 4s, your abilities still work! As Guardian, when frozen in place, turns out you can still stun, force push and even melee abilities on the Operative depending on distance, without even facing them! This is good to know as usually when rooted I just take damage and do nothing.

[Soisa]

Imagine if u could cleanse that root....

 

nerf ops

[Ttoilleekul]

just found out that being able to fight back during that root is a bug of the rishi SH arena.

[Ttoilleekul]

Imagine if u could cleanse that root....

 

nerf ops

 

I have no issue with their abilities in so far as what they can do. The problem is their abilities have very low cooldown times. Being able to root someone for 4s every 13s, that's too much, it should be 30s. Having 3 self heals + 2 utility self heals, is too much. So increase the cooldown time of their utility self heals. Being able to roll every 10s, its too much. Should be 15s like force speed.

 

Make these changes and they would still be formidable in 1v1, but they wouldn't be able to make a mockery of teams at a turret.

[Soisa]

I have no issue with their abilities in so far as what they can do. The problem is their abilities have very low cooldown times. Being able to root someone for 4s every 13s, that's too much, it should be 30s. Having 3 self heals + 2 utility self heals, is too much. So increase the cooldown time of their utility self heals. Being able to roll every 10s, its too much. Should be 15s like force speed.

 

Make these changes and they would still be formidable in 1v1, but they wouldn't be able to make a mockery of teams at a turret.

 

if u can troll a whole team at turret.. man the whole team sucks. u only need 2 people to shut a ops down. 2 good hardstuns... gameover ( if u dont have breaker)

 

about heals

i count only 2 active heal spells.

and only 1 utility heal with stimboost... the othe passive heal with countermessure and shiledprobe... mhh u can spec it but i would skill them with lethality...

but every sorc will lough about that selfheal

 

14 sek on a root... how long is the cd of the root from sorcs or sins? how long is the cd of the root if skilled from juggs or maras? or mercs.....

but hey if u want u can specc a rootmosnter with perma root. its possible and fun to play :-)

 

roll is their def cd. no roll no life no fun welcome to spawnzone

if u played one u know what pain it is when u cant roll because u are rooted and u dont have cleanse or evasion rdy.

 

dont get me wrong. ops are very strong. but u have to know how to play...

 

so stay with #nerfops

[Fellow-Canadian]

Time to enter

into the discussion.

 

This is a warzone where I very deliberately set out to capture the other team's node and completely ignored anything else. It meant I had to try my luck fighting almost entirely outnumbered. You can see where I made mistakes and I would be caught in a stun and burst down quickly. Sometimes I just didn't have the cooldown I needed. When things get hot, I roll out of dodge and heal up. The critical mistake made by the other players is they don't really try to stop me and give me the space I need.

 

You can also see in some of the 1v3 situations the other 3 couldn't heal themselves. That meant the longer the fight went on the greater the odds of success were. They should have just sat on me the whole time, but they didn't.

 

This has been repeated a few times now, but player skill is the biggest factor in why these things happen.

 

This warzone shows when not played perfectly a scoundrel will die quickly. When the other team don't know how to fight a scoundrel, they look like fools.

 

I'd say in ruffian's case the healing does feel a little over the top, but the damage application is so slow that you need to be able to live long enough to see the damage take effect. I think any tinkering with the formula means you better be really sure that a nerf wouldn't make the entire class irrelevant for PVP.

[Ttoilleekul]

@Soisa, definitely 3 heals...Slow release med pack, Diagnostic scan and Kolto pack.

 

I'm absolute newb to this class, I levelled one ages ago and then left it alone. Recently I have started playing it to learn how to beat them. I am far from "skilled" yet, but I am already beating my friends in duels, with lesser gear too. This class is too OP and too easy to win. I haven't gone into WZ and tested myself on a turret vs 3 players yes, but I will keep saying it…..it doesn't matter if its only possible to troll a turret because the other team is bad, no other class can do it! One person has said a Sage can do it, but I've never seen it, I'll concede it they can if shown video evidence. And also Sage has no AOE stun to make the cap when enemy players are in the right positions. The key to nerfing them is in the cooldown times. The very fact that people are saying they can't be beaten in a duel unless the Operative is unskilled is proof enough. They need to be brought down a peg, so that they are still top tier in 1v1, but not able to troll turrets.

Edited June 9, 2019 by Ttoilleekul

[UltraFlashStar]

Snip

 

Nah, nobody uses diagnostic scan. Spamming Kolto Probe is more effective and heals more + has more mobility. Scoundrels are good because they are easy to learn and provide superb mobility. You just need to survive one stun break from Scoundrel and then just stun them and burst, use your slows (makes their roll go about half it’s normal distance based on what % of slow you have on them). Classes like Mr. Predictable n’ Counterable Guardian, Poor Defense Vanguard and Sad Heals Slinger.

 

At best, when you know an Scoundrel is nearby just call that you need help.

Edited June 9, 2019 by UltraFlashStar

[Ttoilleekul]

Nah, nobody uses diagnostic scan. Spamming Kolto Probe is more effective and heals more + has more mobility. Scoundrels are good because they are easy to learn and provide superb mobility. You just need to survive one stun break from Scoundrel and then just stun them and burst, use your slows (makes their roll go about half it’s normal distance based on what % of slow you have on them). Classes like Mr. Predictable n’ Counterable Guardian, Poor Defense Vanguard and Sad Heals Slinger.

 

At best, when you know an Scoundrel is nearby just call that you need help.

 

I won't contest that nobody uses Diagnostic scan and that its better to spam Kolto probe and Slow release medpack, I've already worked that out for myself. But whatshername back there said the class only has 2 self heals, it doesn't.

 

So what classes have you beaten Scoundrels / Operatives with then?

 

Btw, I tested this reduced roll distance with my Scoundrel. A friend slowed me down by 50% and 75% using Sorc and slinger respectively. No change in roll distance.

Edited June 9, 2019 by Ttoilleekul

[Soisa]

Ah whatshername...

 

2 selfheals because the third is useless. Like Spam lightsaberhit with sorcs.....

 

Have fun

[Rion_Starkiller]

Ah whatshername...

 

2 selfheals because the third is useless. Like Spam lightsaberhit with sorcs.....

 

Have fun

 

I like trolling people by getting that killing blow with saber strike

 

Also, the utility that makes your saber strike root opponent is pretty fun... it's a shame it wastes a utility however.

[Soisa]

I like trolling people by getting that killing blow with saber strike

 

THAT´s the only viable use of it :-)

[Ttoilleekul]

So a little update. As mentioned earlier I have been playing Scoundrel to learn them, originally with the idea that it would teach me where their weakness are to be better equipped to face them, even maybe beat them. Though it has taught me a lot, I see now that you can't beat them.

 

There is no end to their ability to survive. My friend caught me in a stun and burst when I had no defences active (I know, but I'm still very new to the class) and she took me down to 30%, but it just doesn't matter does it. Pop Dodge, roll, healing probe, one of your utility heals, and you're back up to 80%+ in no time. My friends are all very experienced players and can all hold their own in PVP with a variety of classes, and I'm already beating all of them with a lower geared scoundrel and only a few days practice. I went in WZ, and already I can hold off 2 players at a turret and stop them from capping. I can't solo two players yet, but they won't kill me, the average ones at least.

 

Is it a fun class, yes. I see why they can do what they do. But it all just confirms in my mind that they need to be nerfed.

[Rion_Starkiller]

I think you're just being stubborn at this point.

 

The key to beating an op/scoundrel (or at least surviving a long while) is to use your CC break at the right time. As well as knowing when to kite/root/reflect/slow/cleanse.

Edited June 13, 2019 by Rion_Starkiller

[Ttoilleekul]

I think you're just being stubborn at this point.

 

The key to beating an op/scoundrel (or at least surviving a long while) is to use your CC break at the right time. As well as knowing when to kite/root/reflect/slow/cleanse.

 

There's been more than a few people here who have made it abundantly clear that Operatives / Scoundrels cannot be beaten if the player knows what to do. One guy said that if you get an Operative within 1DCD of dying then he's really bad. Another said that a rusty player could come back after 6 months off and still win every duel he plays. Another said that they are the Kings of 1v1. Not all on this thread mind, on other threads too. So are these people being stubborn too? You can't have it both ways. Either they are the unbeatable Kings of 1v1 or they are not. By far the vast majority of people here are saying you can't beat them if skill is equal. So which is it?

 

And please tell me, what classes have you beaten Operative's / Scoundrels with? And not the mediocre ones that we have all beaten, I mean the skilled ones. Please, do tell me.

[Ttoilleekul]

One thing I keep seeing. is Operatives with healing probes circulating around them for a good long while. I've only played Scoundrel, but my probes from my Slow release med pack only appear briefly. For example one Operative on my team just now in Ancient Hypergate had healing probes circulating around him as he went from mid to plyon and back again, while in stealth. He couldn't have been refreshing the probes as he was in stealth the whole time.

 

So is there a difference between the way the abilities work from Operative to Scoundrel?

[TrixxieTriss]

One thing I keep seeing. is Operatives with healing probes circulating around them for a good long while. I've only played Scoundrel, but my probes from my Slow release med pack only appear briefly. For example one Operative on my team just now in Ancient Hypergate had healing probes circulating around him as he went from mid to plyon and back again, while in stealth. He couldn't have been refreshing the probes as he was in stealth the whole time.

 

So is there a difference between the way the abilities work from Operative to Scoundrel?

 

You can spam them as much as you want.