It’s time to make HK-55 and Chapter 10 available for subs??

[Christie_Swift]

This conversation is certainly timely as it is a topic we have been revisiting internally as well. We have been actively talking about how, when, and if it would be possible to get make the HK chapter available again in some form. Whether that is a sub reward, sold on the market, etc.

 

Here is the thing we are trying to be sensitive to. Individuals who have it right now subbed for a number of months to get it and so if/when we bring it back, we need to make sure that we do it in a way that is fair to what they went through to get it. Ex: if it was a sub reward it would likely require multiple months of sub, or, if it was in the market it would be sold for a premium.

 

There is a lot of sensitivity on both sides. We agree that we would love to have a way for players who don't have it to get it (since it is story content, afterall). But it has to be done in a way that is fair to those who already have it. Let us know your thoughts (for, or against) and I can make sure all of your feedback is captured in our on-going discussion.

 

As a note I won't likely have an update on this in the short-tem, but as soon as I have any details I will pass them on.

 

-eric

 

Personally IMO, if this is done why not bring ALL past rewards like Dr. Oggurobb Hutt trainer or others like that. Perhaps create a new vendor in similar fashion what it's being done with security keys and sell those to anyone depending on sub level? IMO either do it for ALL or none to be fair to the playerbase.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Christie_Swift

[Drenovade]

That is just your erroneous interpretation of the original promotion. Dasty has pointed out in both threads exactly why you are wrong. They never promised that it would remain exclusive forever. If they re-release it, they are not violating the terms of the original promotion. All of that is in your own head based on your particular interpretation, which happens to be wrong. The plain language of the promotion does not support your argument, nor do their statements on the stream. All both did was establish that "this is the only current way of earning this content." Period. You read perpetual exclusivity into the promotion when it was never there.

 

Correct. The "I've been lied to" narrative just seems like fake outrage in order to obstruct bringing the content back. There have been so many exclusive rewards brought back over the years, both from in-game events and previous sub rewards.

 

The ambiguous wording of the promotions is deliberate. The social media posts below confirm this:

 

 

Last chance to ever obtain? Or last chance to obtain them from this specific promotion? In these particular examples, it's obviously the latter. In other cases, it may be the former.

 

Plenty of other exclusive rewards haven't come back yet and probably never will. There's always a chance they won't, so anyone claiming this will affect their decision to indulge in future promotions is just lying to themselves.

 

If they offer Malgus as a 7-month sub reward next week, you think anyone is going to want to take the risk that they can just get him at some unknown date in the future instead, much less want to wait 3 years for him and potentially pay more than if they got him in the original promotion? Of course not.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Drenovade

[JediMasterAlex]

 

And no matter how many times you add words that aren't in the video, such as "current way", it doesn't change what they actually said. Ben literally said no one could play the chapter who didn't qualify for the promotion. No one means no one unless you also state an exception. That isn't an ambiguous statement and if someone who didn't qualify for the promotion can play the chapter then it is in direct opposition to that statement. They certainly could have phrased it in a number of other ways to let players know that this was not going to be a limited, one-time release, but they opted not to.

 

I agree that the statement isn't ambiguous. It is devoid of a time frame. No one could play it outside of the promotion. That was true. However, that statement does not preclude them from running the promotion again, or even a different promotion. That is just basic English. You simply misinterpreted the nature of the promotion.

 

Let's say this time they say "We are running another promotion for this content! Stay subbed for 7 months and get the chapter, etc. Other than the original promotion, that is the only way to play this content!" That still won't preclude them from running the promotion again 3 years from now. That is why I added the word "currently," because that is all it actually means. You are the one adding extra meaning to it by assuming they meant it would be the only way to ever play the content.

Edited May 14, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[robertthebard]

I agree that the statement isn't ambiguous. It is devoid of a time frame. No one could play it outside of the promotion. That was true. However, that statement does not preclude them from running the promotion again, or even a different promotion. That is just basic English. You simply misinterpreted the nature of the promotion.

 

Let's say this time they say "We are running another promotion for this content! Stay subbed for 7 months and get the chapter, etc. Other than the original promotion, that is the only way to play this content!" That still won't preclude them from running the promotion again 3 years from now. That is why I added the word "currently," because that is all it actually means. You are the one adding extra meaning to it by assuming they meant it would be the only way to ever play the content.

 

I'd say that you're misinterpreting the intent of the promotion: To offer a one off reward for maintaining a sub in a time when subs were literally bleeding away. It's even more ironic, reading through the last couple of pages, when you have at least one poster insisting that it must be free. Not really a good way to sway the people that are against it, wouldn't you agree? So, if they announce a new promotion, are you willing to maintain a 7 month sub for the content, or will you rail against it because you think it should be cheaper, or easier to attain?

[JediMasterAlex]

I'd say that you're misinterpreting the intent of the promotion: To offer a one off reward for maintaining a sub in a time when subs were literally bleeding away. It's even more ironic, reading through the last couple of pages, when you have at least one poster insisting that it must be free. Not really a good way to sway the people that are against it, wouldn't you agree? So, if they announce a new promotion, are you willing to maintain a 7 month sub for the content, or will you rail against it because you think it should be cheaper, or easier to attain?

 

First, I've never asked for it to be free. Second, the point of this thread is not to convince the people that are against it, the point is to give Bioware feedback, which I think we've done by putting forth various arguments on both sides. Third, I would have no issue with them running the promotion the same way it was done before. Fourth, I will likely maintain a subscription for the next 7 months regardless of any promotion. If they add it to the cartel market for a high enough price, I may hesitate to buy it, but I almost certainly won't rail against whatever they decide to do on this matter.

Edited May 14, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[IoNonSoEVero]

Terms of sale/access can change. The bottom line is that BW owns the content and the EULA allows them to change the terms of access or acquisition of their products at any time. Offering something in a one-time promotion isn't the same as saying they're going to burn the masters and never allow anyone else to access it. It means that at the time of the promotion, you have to fulfill those terms to access it.

 

This happens all the time. For instance, the original offer to get Darth Hexid was a lot more lenient than the one that exists now. Same promotional product, different means of acquiring it. You might have purchased a subscription to access KOTET and the player next to you might have gotten it for free with a Twitch code. You might have paid for a pre-order of SoR and now everyone gets it instantly with subscription. They offered that expac for free last year too with a promo code.

 

The terms of access and sale can and do often change and there's never a guarantee that the way a product is offered once will be the same way it's always offered. The bottom line is if an offer comes up, it's up to each of us to decide if it's worth it to us at that time. Hopefully if you subscribed for that time to get the HK-55 rewards, you felt it was worth it.

Edited May 14, 2019 by IoNonSoEVero

[OlBuzzard]

First, I've never asked for it to be free. Second, the point of this thread is not to convince the people that are against it, the point is to give Bioware feedback, which I think we've done by putting forth various arguments on both sides. Third, I would have no issue with them running the promotion the same way it was done before. Fourth, I will likely maintain a subscription for the next 7 months regardless of any promotion. If they add it to the cartel market for a high enough price, I may hesitate to buy it, but I almost certainly won't rail against whatever they decide to do on this matter.

 

Well said my friend !

1. What was originally asked for was feed back.

2. The " reinstated offer" should be similar to the original... (BW should be resonsible for the details on that)

3. The only difference I think that most are still debating over is the CC market thing ... That was never in the original deal ... therefore should not be in the next installment IF there is another one.

4. Additional compensation for those of us who have been here longer. This is a point of contention that is unlikely to be resloved simply because there are so many varried opinions on the matter. Should BW pass a little something on to the rest of us... that's great ! If not... hey I'm OK with that too.

 

I'm certain that BW can come up with something that will work.

[ceryxp]

Personally IMO, if this is done why not bring ALL past rewards like Dr. Oggurobb Hutt trainer or others like that. Perhaps create a new vendor in similar fashion what it's being done with security keys and sell those to anyone depending on sub level? IMO either do it for ALL or none to be fair to the playerbase.

 

Minor point of order, Dr. Oggurobb was not a sub reward. The holo statue trainer was included with the pre-purchase of Rise of the Hutt Cartel. That said, and yes I do have Dr. Oggi, I would not care if they sold the statue, pet, and title on the CM. I think everyone should have the joy of experiencing Dr. Oggi's laugh when summoned.

 

 

 

I agree that the statement isn't ambiguous. It is devoid of a time frame. No one could play it outside of the promotion. That was true. However, that statement does not preclude them from running the promotion again, or even a different promotion. That is just basic English. You simply misinterpreted the nature of the promotion.

 

Let's say this time they say "We are running another promotion for this content! Stay subbed for 7 months and get the chapter, etc. Other than the original promotion, that is the only way to play this content!" That still won't preclude them from running the promotion again 3 years from now. That is why I added the word "currently," because that is all it actually means. You are the one adding extra meaning to it by assuming they meant it would be the only way to ever play the content.

 

What those who are using the steam to support their argument fail to realize is that the terms and conditions of the promotion are what matter. The terms explicitly state that to qualify for the promo rewards one must be subbed on specific dates. But that promo is over. It has ended. And the promo says nothing about exclusivity or perpetuity. But then, nowhere in the stream do they say that BW does not reserve the right to rerun the promo or run a different promo that offers the same or similar rewards.

[Keta]

That was in my other post.

I'd be totally fine with them just making it a normal "reward" for anyone who doesn't have it, in perpetuity, for either buying a 6 month sub up front, or subbing for 6 months in general.

 

I just hadn't addressed the "how much CC would be acceptable" question floating around.

 

Now I have.

 

 

I was around and got the chapter and 55 back. And ...

 

I no longer care what they do with the Chapter and HK-55 subscriber associated rewards from back in the day. Make it an ongoing reward, make it a new reward for those that don't have it -- it matters not to me. It's nothing more than a shiny precious.

 

I've never leveled HK-55 on any character and, frankly, I prefer HK-51 anyway.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Keta

[Jadescythe]

What those who are using the steam to support their argument fail to realize is that the terms and conditions of the promotion are what matter. The terms explicitly state that to qualify for the promo rewards one must be subbed on specific dates. But that promo is over. It has ended. And the promo says nothing about exclusivity or perpetuity. But then, nowhere in the stream do they say that BW does not reserve the right to rerun the promo or run a different promo that offers the same or similar rewards.

 

People arguing against us keep making legal arguments that no one is trying to argue against. No one has claimed that BW does not have the legal right to open the content up to the overall population.

 

No one would watch the live stream announcement and walk away expecting to get access to the chapter at a future time for some other cost. During the course of an hour long stream, they had any number of chances to qualify that subscribing for 7 continuous months was only guaranteed access to content that may be available in the future and chose not to while simultaneously clarifying that subscriber reward access to chapter content was only early access. I don't believe setting false expectations is the best way to reward your "most loyal" subscribers.

[Drenovade]

People arguing against us keep making legal arguments that no one is trying to argue against. No one has claimed that BW does not have the legal right to open the content up to the overall population.

 

No one would watch the live stream announcement and walk away expecting to get access to the chapter at a future time for some other cost. During the course of an hour long stream, they had any number of chances to qualify that subscribing for 7 continuous months was only guaranteed access to content that may be available in the future and chose not to while simultaneously clarifying that subscriber reward access to chapter content was only early access. I don't believe setting false expectations is the best way to reward your "most loyal" subscribers.

 

That just means they're good salespeople. They're trying to convince you to buy something, not discourage you from buying it. It's up to you to weigh the pros and cons and determine if it's worth buying or not. "Risk of no return" and "exclusive offer" marketing strategies are a common practice.

 

It's the same reason items come and go off the CM. They want to present the urgency to buy something while it's available. Does that imply it will never be available again at a later date? No, it does not.

 

There was a big unknown factor that went into your purchase. Maybe it would never be offered again, or maybe it would but not for a long time, or maybe the next time it would be harder or more expensive to obtain. You decided it was worth it at the time, so you got what you paid for, along with all the benefits of doing so.

 

It just happens that one of those benefits is probably not going to be "forever exclusive". Sorry if that's disappointing, but there's a ton of other people who would like another opportunity to pay for this content.

[robertthebard]

First, I've never asked for it to be free. Second, the point of this thread is not to convince the people that are against it, the point is to give Bioware feedback, which I think we've done by putting forth various arguments on both sides. Third, I would have no issue with them running the promotion the same way it was done before. Fourth, I will likely maintain a subscription for the next 7 months regardless of any promotion. If they add it to the cartel market for a high enough price, I may hesitate to buy it, but I almost certainly won't rail against whatever they decide to do on this matter.

 

Where did I say you have asked for it to be free? Let's argue against things I've actually said, instead of what you want me to have said?

 

Now, my feedback is "Don't do it. You laid out terms and conditions and those should be as binding for you(BW) as they were for me". Things like this are not going to persuade me, or convince me, that I need to change my point of view on the matter. Since that poster's view is "free or don't bother", I'm coming down firmly on the "don't bother" side. It doesn't matter on bit if you're saying "free or don't bother", people are, and no, they don't deserve content "for reasons".

 

Note that nowhere have I asked for, or supported compensation for any promotions that they may decide to run. I have stated that I believe that if they're going to rehash this, they stick to the original premise, and am vehemently against allowing it to be applied retroactively. If you want it, pay what was originally paid for it. If you're not willing to do that, then you don't get it. It's simple, and to the point. I'm against the idea because I believe it should remain what it is, a one off promotion to keep people that would have unsubbed subbed, but if they are going to renege on that statement, they need to make sure that they're not undercutting the people that they already fished in.

[robertthebard]

That just means they're good salespeople. They're trying to convince you to buy something, not discourage you from buying it. It's up to you to weigh the pros and cons and determine if it's worth buying or not. "Risk of no return" and "exclusive offer" marketing strategies are a common practice.

 

It's the same reason items come and go off the CM. They want to present the urgency to buy something while it's available. Does that imply it will never be available again at a later date? No, it does not.

 

There was a big unknown factor that went into your purchase. Maybe it would never be offered again, or maybe it would but not for a long time, or maybe the next time it would be harder or more expensive to obtain. You decided it was worth it at the time, so you got what you paid for, along with all the benefits of doing so.

 

It just happens that one of those benefits is probably not going to be "forever exclusive". Sorry if that's disappointing, but there's a ton of other people who would like another opportunity to pay for this content.

 

In what world is misleading your customers "being good sales people"? Where I'm from, it's a crime to misrepresent what you're selling, and if it's a car, for example, you can be prosecuted for violating our state's lemon law. I'm not sure why we have a Consumer Protection Agency, if misleading customers is not only accepted business practice, but is considered good?

[Drenovade]

In what world is misleading your customers "being good sales people"? Where I'm from, it's a crime to misrepresent what you're selling, and if it's a car, for example, you can be prosecuted for violating our state's lemon law. I'm not sure why we have a Consumer Protection Agency, if misleading customers is not only accepted business practice, but is considered good?

 

They haven't misled anyone outside of your personal, well read-into interpretation of what they advertised was being offered. You'll have to direct us to where they specifically said this offer or reward would never be made available again on any future occasion. Otherwise, just accept it was your responsibility to know the possibility of this outcome.

 

It's not like this is anything new here. There's already an established history of past rewards being made available again, though this doesn't imply all of them will be. This one just happens to be a highly demanded one, relevant to the story, and likely to interest a large number of people. In other words, the perfect candidate to be offered again.

[OlBuzzard]

That just means they're good salespeople. They're trying to convince you to buy something, not discourage you from buying it. It's up to you to weigh the pros and cons and determine if it's worth buying or not. "Risk of no return" and "exclusive offer" marketing strategies are a common practice.

 

It's the same reason items come and go off the CM. They want to present the urgency to buy something while it's available. Does that imply it will never be available again at a later date? No, it does not.

 

There was a big unknown factor that went into your purchase. Maybe it would never be offered again, or maybe it would but not for a long time, or maybe the next time it would be harder or more expensive to obtain. You decided it was worth it at the time, so you got what you paid for, along with all the benefits of doing so.

 

It just happens that one of those benefits is probably not going to be "forever exclusive". Sorry if that's disappointing, but there's a ton of other people who would like another opportunity to pay for this content.

 

Very good point.

 

IMO the fact that BW has agreed to review the matter at all is a good thing. The constant arguing about who has the best point to be considered is if anything hurting others that might benifit from that review..... WHICH is EXACTLY why some are continuing this sort of approach to the discussion. (As though no one at BW can't see that ploy).

 

For whatever it is worth I sincerly hope that BW can and will follow through with what has been stated by Eric. I also understand that the statement he made is not a committment to make the availability of HK-55 happen... but rather to ... well ... here :

 

 

 

This conversation is certainly timely as it is a topic we have been revisiting internally as well. We have been actively talking about how, when, and if it would be possible to get make the HK chapter available again in some form. Whether that is a sub reward, sold on the market, etc.

 

Here is the thing we are trying to be sensitive to. Individuals who have it right now subbed for a number of months to get it and so if/when we bring it back, we need to make sure that we do it in a way that is fair to what they went through to get it. Ex: if it was a sub reward it would likely require multiple months of sub, or, if it was in the market it would be sold for a premium.

 

There is a lot of sensitivity on both sides. We agree that we would love to have a way for players who don't have it to get it (since it is story content, afterall). But it has to be done in a way that is fair to those who already have it. Let us know your thoughts (for, or against) and I can make sure all of your feedback is captured in our on-going discussion.

 

As a note I won't likely have an update on this in the short-tem, but as soon as I have any details I will pass them on.

 

-eric

And yes... I believe that he will keep his word !

[Sareeph]

They haven't misled anyone outside of your personal, well read-into interpretation of what they advertised was being offered. You'll have to direct us to where they specifically said this offer or reward would never be made available again on any future occasion. Otherwise, just accept it was your responsibility to know the possibility of this outcome.

 

It's not like this is anything new here. There's already an established history of past rewards being made available again, though this doesn't imply all of them will be. This one just happens to be a highly demanded one, relevant to the story, and likely to interest a large number of people. In other words, the perfect candidate to be offered again.

 

You really should do some research if you are going to take such a rock hard stance on something. This post here has the relevant answer to your demand. Page 33 if the link acts wonky. The times are there for easy access. This subject has been discussed many times with all the same arguments, just with different names for the most part.

[Sareeph]

Very good point.

 

IMO the fact that BW has agreed to review the matter at all is a good thing. The constant arguing about who has the best point to be considered is if anything hurting others that might benifit from that review..... WHICH is EXACTLY why some are continuing this sort of approach to the discussion. (As though no one at BW can't see that ploy).

 

For whatever it is worth I sincerly hope that BW can and will follow through with what has been stated by Eric. I also understand that the statement he made is not a committment to make the availability of HK-55 happen... but rather to ... well ... here :

 

 

 

 

And yes... I believe that he will keep his word !

 

To which word are you referring? The one where they say no one else will be able to play the bonus chapter or the one where he said he would make it fair to break an earlier promise by keeping it consistent with what was the original criteria?

[Drenovade]

You really should do some research if you are going to take such a rock hard stance on something. This post here has the relevant answer to your demand. Page 33 if the link acts wonky. The times are there for easy access. This subject has been discussed many times with all the same arguments, just with different names for the most part.

 

See, this is where you're getting a little confused. It is one thing to describe something as exclusive, but it is a separate matter to set a specific time period for which it will remain being so. This content, which no one else has been able to play, has been exclusive for 3 years now.

 

There is nothing in what they have said to suggest the content will remain exclusive for all of eternity. This was the same kind of wording used for promotions like Shae and Nico, who were made available again for a limited time, as well as Hexid and the rewards of several in-game events, all of which have now returned to the game and become available again.

 

I'm afraid you're going to have to come up with something a lot better than that if you hope to sound convincing.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Drenovade

[robertthebard]

They haven't misled anyone outside of your personal, well read-into interpretation of what they advertised was being offered. You'll have to direct us to where they specifically said this offer or reward would never be made available again on any future occasion. Otherwise, just accept it was your responsibility to know the possibility of this outcome.

 

It's not like this is anything new here. There's already an established history of past rewards being made available again, though this doesn't imply all of them will be. This one just happens to be a highly demanded one, relevant to the story, and likely to interest a large number of people. In other words, the perfect candidate to be offered again.

 

I've got a better idea, show me where it says it will be. You can end my whole input into this thread by simply providing a link to "We reserve the right to offer this in the future", or "If there's enough tears later, we'll redo something to give this out again". I'll wait.

[juliushorst]

I think a poll would work the best if they want to see some accurate data. Forum is for subs only so it's rather impossible for someone to create sockpuppet accounts to mess with it.

Over 40 pages of the same arguments for and against won't work, I believe.

Edited May 14, 2019 by juliushorst

[Drenovade]

I've got a better idea, show me where it says it will be. You can end my whole input into this thread by simply providing a link to "We reserve the right to offer this in the future", or "If there's enough tears later, we'll redo something to give this out again". I'll wait.

 

They didn't do that either, which means they have maximum flexibility in deciding whether or not to bring back the rewards. They have just as much right to never bring them back as they do to bring them back.

 

That is why, as far as I can tell, none of us who don't have the content are saying we are entitled to it, whereas you and several others who do have the content are saying you are entitled to it being forever exclusive to those who originally earned it.

 

It is our suggestion, request, and desire for it to be made available again, but it is not our right. We understand that.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Drenovade

[Jdast]

I've got a better idea, show me where it says it will be. You can end my whole input into this thread by simply providing a link to "We reserve the right to offer this in the future", or "If there's enough tears later, we'll redo something to give this out again". I'll wait.

 

Dasty begins singing:

 

Young man, there's no need to feel down. I say, young man, no need to stomp on the ground.

 

Because...

 

It's fun to reread the E...U....L....A!

 

Yes, it's fun to read that E...U....L...A!

 

You will have a good time!

 

And then you will see!

 

They can do whatever they feel!

 

<<sips martini>>

 

Dasty

Edited May 14, 2019 by Jdast

[casirabit]

Nah, no need to be fair. Those who subbed at the time wuda subbed anyway. Subbing for a certain time only to get one lousy comp or 2 is pretty expensive....

 

Such exclusivity is rather unnecessary. And a big big middle finger to anyone who was not even around for that time and had no chance to sub even if they wanted to get the reward.

 

I am going to correct you here. During this time when they were releasing the chapter per monthly there was a lot of talk from players that they might as well unsub until all the chapters were released since there really wasn't any content for them to. A little while after that conversation bw came out with this. While some may not have unsub there was some that were ready to unsub until this promotion came out and they stayed sub for that. I wouldn't have but there are those I talked to back then that was which I though a bit crazy but it was their money to do as they wanted.

Edited May 14, 2019 by casirabit

[JediMasterAlex]

Now, my feedback is "Don't do it. You laid out terms and conditions and those should be as binding for you(BW) as they were for me". Things like this are not going to persuade me, or convince me, that I need to change my point of view on the matter. Since that poster's view is "free or don't bother", I'm coming down firmly on the "don't bother" side. It doesn't matter on bit if you're saying "free or don't bother", people are, and no, they don't deserve content "for reasons".

 

No one actually cares about convincing you. This thread is for Bioware's consumption.

 

I'm against the idea because I believe it should remain what it is, a one off promotion to keep people that would have unsubbed subbed, but if they are going to renege on that statement, they need to make sure that they're not undercutting the people that they already fished in.

 

More entitled demands.

[robertthebard]

Very good point.

 

IMO the fact that BW has agreed to review the matter at all is a good thing. The constant arguing about who has the best point to be considered is if anything hurting others that might benifit from that review..... WHICH is EXACTLY why some are continuing this sort of approach to the discussion. (As though no one at BW can't see that ploy).

 

For whatever it is worth I sincerly hope that BW can and will follow through with what has been stated by Eric. I also understand that the statement he made is not a committment to make the availability of HK-55 happen... but rather to ... well ... here :

 

 

 

 

And yes... I believe that he will keep his word !

 

Hmm, "hurting others", eh? Yeah, I can see how empty the game is because all those "hurt" players don't have HK 55 sitting as a portrait in their rosters. I literally felt the disturbance in the Force when they rage quit "because it's not fair that someone has something I don't". It shook my house to it's very foundations, their pain was so succinct.

 

Actually, it didn't. The only people "hurt" by this being like it is right now are the people that believe they should have anything someone else has. My own objections are literally "this is what we were told, and this is what it should be". All of these concessions, 6 months instead of 7, applying it retroactively, aren't designed to do anything about the main issue: We were told this is how we're going to be able to earn this content, and now people are trying to undermine us by insisting that they deserve it. Before you try to go on with "but nobody's insisting", who's going to be hurt by not having something they don't have now? You make the claim in this very post, support it.