Self-defeating playerbase

[ApollosNight]

Well, i see the little apologists are at full force telling players to get lost, screaming and what not. Forums are for expressing opinions, whether you like them or not, if that does not go well with someone, there is always the so popular nowadays "safe space" roflmao...meaning get off the forums and live in your bubble.

 

If you call this screaming and whining, I suggest you never work with children at a daycare.

[tahol]

I agree with you almost 100%. I do want to point out that developers work in this game as much as anyone doing their work for their wage does. Adult people have no priviledge to pout and sulk and stop working if their feelings are hurt, so believe me, that doesn't happen in game developement.

 

I've been in this game for four years, and let me tell you, so many things are better now than before yet no one ever brings that up. I didn't agree with the direction of the game that Ben Irwing had, and left at one point. Thank the Maker we got rid of him, and good riddance. Since then lots of damage control has been done, and in addition to that, lots of quality of life changes that were asked for years are now reality.

 

Has everything been flawless, of course not. But SWTOR must have the most entitled and negative player base I've even encountered in any game, not to mention rude and aggressive. I rarely come to these forums because no one needs this much negativity in their life, Reddit is not much better. I also very rarely have a need to tell people to get a life, yet here the need is constant. I almost want to tell BioWare to never listen to their player base, and especially not the one on the official forum as this one has lost all sense of proportion long time ago. And there is not even the comfort that most are teengares, as I know that is not the case, these are adult people we are talking about.

Edited December 28, 2018 by tahol

[kirorx]

I agree that some people complain just to complain, but some of us really enjoyed this game and cant help but feel like we are being taken advantage of.

 

I enjoyed the new update, but we waited for 5.10 since like last March and we got a quick bit of content and some insane gear grind just to pass the time until some new update, which we do not even have a date for.

 

I am not going to cancel my sub, but after running the new story stuff on my 2 main characters, I cant find a reason to log in anymore.

 

I will be here to play the new content when it comes out but I just dont find running around on Ossus for the next 6 months a fun way to spend time.

 

KOTFE was Oct of 2015, it is almost 2019 and we still don't have all out companions back. That is too long to drag out this content and keep stringing us along

Edited December 28, 2018 by kirorx

[uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu]

Then why are you still here, still posting?

You have been complaining about the game for years...

 

So have you buddy. In fact I remember very vividly seeing you post a big goodbye thread way back ages ago, you complained for multiple paragraphs about your gripes with the game and promised you were unsubbing never to return. Yet.... Here you are. Clearly subbing to be able to post on these forums. So it's a little hypocritical for you to be trying to take the micky out of someone else for doing literally the exact same thing. We all get frustrated

Edited December 28, 2018 by uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

[TUXs]

What hurts me even more, though, is the attitude of players. Specifially, the level of pure hatred for EA and BioWare, especially the devs of his game. I get that sometimes they do things we don’t like, but let’s get real: we are not mind readers. Isn’t it possible that they have their reasons for doing what they do? What happens now is the devs get hated on so much by the players that they get discouraged and work less on the game. Players complain and hate, and the circle repeats. Instead of calling the devs to change, maybe we as a gaming community should change first.

It's called FEEDBACK. The new tier of gear is stupidly RNG based AGAIN. RNG has failed in this game since launch. No matter what their reasons were, it's been rejected by the players time and time and time again - it's a proven failure of design and it's been forced on us AGAIN. Yeah, I'll admit, I'm a bit upset by that and who the hell do you think I should blame? You? Porsa? Neither of you have ANY control over stupid design decisions.

 

If they get their feelings hurt, maybe this isn't the field for them. None of the criticism is personal - it's design differences. We're the ones paying for the damn game, not them. If they release crap I strongly disagree with, I will tell them. Not because I hate them or want them to be fired, but because I want to enjoy the entertainment I purchase from them...which I do FAR more than I dislike it...but gearing has been something Ben, and now Keith, have been hellbent on changing for the worse, and it hurts the game.

 

Ossus is freaking BEAUTIFUL and I absolutely LOVE this expansion (patch), and I've given that praise here on the forums. It's one of the best additions ever imo...except for the damn RNG gearing crap again.

[DawnAskham]

EA is a for-profit corporation generating billions of dollars per year, with paid employees, and paying customers such as players of SWTOR.

 

EA is NOT a charity and it's employees are NOT charity workers and I as a customer am NOT a charity case.

 

As such, I do NOT have to give thanks or bow down and kiss the feet of paid employees who as their paid job work on SWTOR, nor cut EA any slack for decisions made that negatively impact SWTOR and my enjoyment thereof.

 

However, I believe that those who work on the game should be treated with a basic level of respect (e.g. no nasty name calling and personal attacks), but when they do things that upset their customers, they should expect feedback that at times may come across as negative.

 

I also believe most of the people working on the game try to deliver a fun and engaging game for us, though they also make mistakes, as well as get boxed into 'bad' decisions by constraints imposed by management, financial concerns, technology, decisions of the past, etc.

 

But regardless of the intent or other considerations and constraints which impact decisions and changes, I will continue to provide feedback (positive and negative) if I so choose.

Edited December 28, 2018 by DawnAskham

[Lhancelot]

Exactly. I had prepaid for 6 months prior to 5.8. I cancelled but was able to post for another 2 months. I had a few that attacked me because I was still taking time to post. Don't worry about them Lhancelot.

 

Yeah I always prepaid 6 months in advance, so I got time to post and will do it till I can no longer do so. I refuse to give details on when I lose my privileges, people ought to just be able to accept the fact we will disagree and that doesn't mean anyone is right or wrong.

 

I have given so much constructive criticism over the years with optimism only to see that feedback 100% ignored, I am done being helpful when my help is not wanted. I am past that point, and at the point of no longer paying a sub with nothing better to do here than express my disappointment with the game and it's direction it has gone.

 

Seeing constructive criticism and optimistic feedback gets ignored or if lucky at most a catchphrase of the likes of "Hey guys thanks for all the feedback we are looking into it" nonsense which then amounts to nothing or changes so small nothing really changes, I am going to give them pure criticism unfiltered. Because they deserve that.

[Ardrossan]

I generally assume that the loudest, harshest critics [and Lhancelot isn't one] will nevertheless resub every time there's a content release, like 5.10. Which is fine. I don't view that as hypocrisy.

 

I do think though that if your premise is 'BW doesn't listen to our feedback!' then it's literally insane to keep giving feedback regardless, even if it stinks up the forums [a smelly place at the best of times] in the process. Like, the rationalization just doesn't make sense. Whereas if you say 'I'm here to vent because I hate the changes and I want you all to know it', well, it still stinks up the forums, but at least it's straightforward and utterly lacking in noble pretenses. Which would be refreshing, imo.

 

Not to say that the OP is remotely correct in his assertion that the toxicity of the forum matters a jot to whether the devs do anything to fix the game. That's just...wow. I mean, technically, judging from the cantina chats, they'd much rather respond to comments fellating them than comments criticizing them, but it doesn't improve their performance. They might, perhaps, make more appearances on the forums if there were less complaints, but they'd still be as useless as ever where it matters.

[Lhancelot]

I generally assume that the loudest, harshest critics [and Lhancelot isn't one] will nevertheless resub every time there's a content release, like 5.10. Which is fine. I don't view that as hypocrisy.

 

I do think though that if your premise is 'BW doesn't listen to our feedback!' then it's literally insane to keep giving feedback regardless, even if it stinks up the forums [a smelly place at the best of times] in the process. Like, the rationalization just doesn't make sense. Whereas if you say 'I'm here to vent because I hate the changes and I want you all to know it', well, it still stinks up the forums, but at least it's straightforward and utterly lacking in noble pretenses. Which would be refreshing, imo.

 

Not to say that the OP is remotely correct in his assertion that the toxicity of the forum matters a jot to whether the devs do anything to fix the game. That's just...wow. I mean, technically, judging from the cantina chats, they'd much rather respond to comments fellating them than comments criticizing them, but it doesn't improve their performance. They might, perhaps, make more appearances on the forums if there were less complaints, but they'd still be as useless as ever where it matters.

 

It's just an exercise in futility really, whether it's giving critical feedback to help the game or giving unbridled criticism with zero expectations of it helping anything at all. I did the prior, and now I do the latter. Sure, not noble, and not a good way to expend energy but occasionally there are other things to chat about here, too.

 

Sadly if you look upon the forums, negativity permeates throughout. Especially when topics like stats, gears, progression, and content are brought up. These actually are some of the most important core fundamental structures that make for a successful MMO btw. So it's no surprise that the game is in the state it is in.

 

Personally I always ran my sub even if i took breaks from the game, because I felt the issues I despised would and could be improved upon. I left my money running into the game, to support them to make those changes and they actually usually did enough that I found it good enough to come back and play.

 

It has reached the point where I no longer have faith in them, and I no longer believe they have in their mind a design goal for the game that works for how I like playing. Coming to this realization, I was forced to stop my sub. It was a hard decision, it really was.

 

I was very passionate and have always loved SWTOR, but the game I once enjoyed so much became something else as time went on. That's my SWTOR love story. As all love stories, it ends in tragedy.

[kodrac]

There is some serious white knighting going on in here. It's like a who's who. Luckily, they're all in one thread. Makes it easier to spot them later.

[QuinlanSaathis]

So have you buddy. In fact I remember very vividly seeing you post a big goodbye thread way back ages ago, you complained for multiple paragraphs about your gripes with the game and promised you were unsubbing never to return. Yet.... Here you are. Clearly subbing to be able to post on these forums. So it's a little hypocritical for you to be trying to take the micky out of someone else for doing literally the exact same thing. We all get frustrated

 

You are confusing me with someone else, that is a post I have never made.

I have been subbed since the beginning, 7 years and I have no intention of ever dropping the sub.

 

So prove it, produce this post, I am willing to bet you cannot.

[Jozandra]

Like the OP, I too enjoy KotFE & KotET as much as I've been enjoying the original class stories. Honestly, I would love it if they would combine the two, so that the same character can replay through class stories on the same character whenever I want as a refresher while keeping my original choices intact.

 

No no no... I am not going to bend myself around a product just to make the company feel good. If they fail to put out quality material that I personally enjoy, then they lose my support AKA money/sub.

 

If others enjoy the content, that's fine too. Continue supporting the company by all means, and continue having fun on the game.

I feel the same way. If a game stops bringing me joy, I simply stop paying them for it. I also stop playing the game entirely. What I am not going to do is make others miserable just because I'm not happy.

 

I won't hold my tongue though regarding what I view as critical feedback whether others agree or not.

 

The OP's point isn't about critical feedback. Critiquing what the developers have put out is fine. The problem is the vitriol that certain individuals post to these boards. Vitriol is not about encouraging the developers to make improvements. Instead, it seems, to me at least, their point is intended to discourage new players from joining this game and also make the game less enjoyable to those who remain.

[Jozandra]

I compliment when they do good, and criticize when they do bad. I still have paid time to post from prepaying a lump sum if you must know and really care so much. Besides, forumquesting is far more fun than the game now, anyway.

 

Complaining and criticizing are two different actions. I do not spend enough time around these boards to pay attention to who has been saying what, so have not thoughts on which method your previous comments might actually fall into.

 

Telling a waiter at a restaurant, "this is awful" is a complaint. The waiter cannot do anything to improve with that type of comment. Mentioning which spices in the food are making your dining experiences unpleasant can be taken back to the chef for improvements is a critique.

 

It is also important how you say what you say. Written words are sometimes challenging to get the point across nicely, but as it would be unlikely a waiter in a restaurant would bother bringing an improved plate of food back to a rude customer, it might be important to re-read what you write when "critiquing" the developers so that they actually want to hear from you.

 

The OP is simply venting frustration at the increasing number of people who fall in the first category. Sticking with my analogy, if the "food" is that bad, just stop dining at that restaurant until you start to hear enough favorable reviews.

[Khevar]

It is also important how you say what you say. Written words are sometimes challenging to get the point across nicely, but as it would be unlikely a waiter in a restaurant would bother bringing an improved plate of food back to a rude customer, it might be important to re-read what you write when "critiquing" the developers so that they actually want to hear from you.

I understand where you're coming form, but it would really help if Bioware actually responded to calmly-worded, well-written posts bringing up issues.

 

Case in point, on the PTS, a number of gearing issues (that all made it to live by the way) were noticed. Many reasonably-worded threads and calm questions asked for clarification and understanding. Are enhancements supposed to be slot bound? Are 252/258 armorings not suppose to be compatible with 248? Are the drop rates of MWC and 252 gear in command packs supposed to be that low?

 

In the PTS subforum, there were a number of posts from MattPucevich, EricMusco, even one or two from JackieCao giving information and responding to other questions.

 

But there was a dramatic absence of communication to the concerns on gearing. No matter how nicely (or not) they were worded.

 

Then, when 5.10 dropped, completely absent from the patch notes were any comments about slot-locked Enhancements (which Musco later conformed was actually intended). This is a significant change -- something that hasn't existed in the 7 years of gearing in this game! Surely that deserved an explanation? Or at the very least a MENTION in the patch notes?

 

How easy would it have been for Musco & co to respond to some of the well-written posts? Wouldn't that have engaged the community with a higher level of discourse?

 

When many people try bringing up issues calmly and are ignored, is it so surprising that the tone starts to go downhill?

Edited December 28, 2018 by Khevar

[ApollosNight]

There is some serious white knighting going on in here. It's like a who's who. Luckily, they're all in one thread. Makes it easier to spot them later.

 

This makes it easy to see the ones who won’t listen to reasonable discussion and result to name calling. Thanks for making it clear who you are.

[Keta]

If I may be so bold as to ask, what is the exact date that your subscription runs out, and you will no longer be able to post on these forums?

 

It doesn't quite work that way. You still have a period of time after your subscription expires where you'll be allowed to post at least until your website login expires. The last time I un-subbed I could post for almost 2 weeks afterwards.

Edited December 30, 2018 by Keta

[Ardrossan]

This makes it easy to see the ones who won’t listen to reasonable discussion and result to name calling. Thanks for making it clear who you are.

 

If anything, he's being conservative by calling it white-knighting. Your OP is more like stockholm syndrome.

[cyrusramsey]

Hmm.

 

I think nuance is often difficult to find here (as it is on large portions of the internet and beyond), but while I've seen my share of toxic people on both sides of the fence, the vast majority of people voicing critical opinions do so because they're passionate about the game.

 

The only 'dev' I've seen that was the recipient of sustained hatred, rather than the incidental scornful remark, was Lootbox Ben, and while I always tried to focus on the product instead of the people, I am immensely relieved that that guy is gone now, and can understand where it came from.

 

For my part... I've grown too bitter with BW decision-making to work up the energy to debate my causes much anymore, instead sticking to the parts that they haven't ruined for me, resulting in significantly reduced playtime in favor of other games. For now I remain subbed (canceled it once; resubbed when they sufficiently addressed my concerns, over the course of half a year), but I'm currently unable to get excited about the game anymore, while I could name a few fairly straightforward changes that would instantly get me doing happychairdances about the game again.

 

I miss getting excited about this game.

[Suzsi]

There is a certain group of "players" in this game who came directly from Mass Effect 3, meaning they are haters, they will hate on Bioware no matter what they do, they are extremely hard to please and they claim themselves as "true bioware fans" which is a bad joke. They hated on ME3 ending so much that they sent even death threats to devs via twitter and on BioWare Social Network back in day, as a result, they closed their official BSN forums few years ago.

 

so they hate on SWTOR too and they wish to see BioWare shut down with EA, without even thinking there are NO any other star wars themed MMO games and without bioware they can get no new ME or DA games in future. They are short-sighted, blind, elitist people.

 

It is best to put them into ignore list in game, which is why we need bigger ignored list.

 

I disliked the ME3 ending immensely and I made it known, but never with death threats etc and its a little presumptuous to lump all unhappy ME3 players in the same boat. Many people where unhappy with it. So many infact that they gathered enough funds to send 100s of cupcakes to the studio in a peaceful protest. The ME3 ending was a rushed pile of grabage, but enough on ME3.

 

People remain in SWTOR but add their voices to the dissatisfaction because they care. They care enough about the game to stay and hope to see improvements and the continue to speak up for the same. There's no point i pretending swtor hasn't gone downhill since Anthem production has started, with very little new content and so many limits on what content we do get even compaired to the KOTFE and KOTET chapters, which they could kick out monthly. The amount and quality has dropped so far its crazy really. Everyrhing that comes now is short with long gaps between and feels rushed and negates a big chunk of former companions. Complaints are not out of line when just a couple of years ago they could kick out 4 times as much with the KOTFE chapters eveey month.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Suzsi

[revkashepard]

I love ME3 a lot more than I did for ME2 and MEA. But I won't drag my dissatisfaction on this game.

 

I love SWTOR. Adore the newer expansions. I also play almost everyday, mostly as preferred status player (my sub is ending today) and I couldn't even normally post on this forum without a sub. So... thank you everyone for subbing to keep this game alive.

 

Yes, the fanbase can be toxic. This is Star Wars after all.

[Batwer]

How long is the fun club on vacation? Mid-January or February? I would be interested to know if they will register the feedback at all or just lead their thing stubbornly.

That's also something that annoys me. I would have wanted a reaction from those before the holiday. A little text. "Hello Guys, we understand that you're angry and we're sorry for that. In the new year, we will deal with it and see how we can adapt the system". For example. But nothing came. Already sad. You do not even have a few words to reassure your customers.

[steveerkcanjerk]

This is something I’ve noticed for a bit now, and I think it’s important enough to make a post about it. A bit of background first! I’m a casual gamer with a deep love for BioWare, Star Wars, and MMOs. I played WoW religiously for years until I got tired of the linear, no-choice story. When I got a computer strong enough to handle SWTOR, I jumped at the chance. I fell I love with my Inquisitor storyline, along with KOTFE/ET (yes, that makes me a horrible person with no taste, etc. etc.). I’m well aware that this game doesn’t receive the attention it used to. It hurts me to see that because I see so much potential in it. What hurts me even more, though, is the attitude of players. Specifially, the level of pure hatred for EA and BioWare, especially the devs of his game. I get that sometimes they do things we don’t like, but let’s get real: we are not mind readers. Isn’t it possible that they have their reasons for doing what they do? What happens now is the devs get hated on so much by the players that they get discouraged and work less on the game. Players complain and hate, and the circle repeats. Instead of calling the devs to change, maybe we as a gaming community should change first.

 

They are not self defeating. They get beat down by the devs. Lets take a look at just a few things that I feel many people can say are real complaints.

 

1. bugs really bad game/progression breaking bugs literally stop you in your tracks.

2. Very little attempts at class balance/meta changing. This is essential for a pvp experience to feel fresh. We have been running this meta for 2 years now it gets boring.

3. Charging 14.99 a premium cost, but not enough output. This adds to the above. You are paying a sub but yet are given a half baked product.

4. Lack of patching for the game. They don't even knockout simple stuff such as bugs, QL at a good enough rate.

5. Constant rehashing of the game, dark vs light event, rework gearing, rework gearing, rework gearing. It gets annoying after a while.

6. Pushing the Cartel Market down people throats, can't remember the last time i wanted to craft a cool piece of armor or earn it.

7. Wasting time on single player content. I love how people call fallen empire and knights of eternal empire expansions when they did not actually expand the game. It was all content I can't even play with my friends awesome. I pay 14.99 for a single player game.

 

These are all very legitimate gripes. It is frustrating to constantly see other mmos making near monthly updates. Eso adds new gear sets to earn and drops expansions. FF14 expansions, WOW (don't even need to say). I am not gonna quit on swtor but at times it does feel like the devs and EA have quit on us. I will ride out the game like i did swg enjoy what I can but I will still advocate for change even when i see something wrong because that is all I can do. Maybe one day the devs will start treating this like an mmo, think their updates through, and start looking like people proud of their product. Because the new gearing system is really unfair to the player and feels like a mobile game. Weakly locks on gearing, 5+ week grind mixed with rng and time walls. Didn't realize i was getting upgrades for my clash of clans base. It's a weird bundle for 14.99.

[Inspirals]

There is some serious white knighting going on in here. It's like a who's who. Luckily, they're all in one thread. Makes it easier to spot them later.

 

Why do you need to "spot them later"? Intriguing. Do you have something big planned? Maybe an all-out attack comprised of enraged keystrokes and feeble insults? Scary stuff.

[Sundown]

This makes it easy to see the ones who won’t listen to reasonable discussion and result to name calling. Thanks for making it clear who you are.

Still trying to figure out what "reasonable discussion" you are referring to. Developers being less motivated if they see negative forum posts? You having played one storyline and liking KotFE/KotET?

 

There are many players here who have been around for years. Those players have experienced first hand what BW SOP is: sell grind for content, release a buggy mess and off to prolonged vacation.

Yes, this IS bitter, because we are paying good money and don't deserve being lied to. Of course, even controversial topics should be discussed in a proper way, there is no justification for insults. Then again: sometimes it just gets too much. We have suffered through GC, now we get the same thing again, just worse!

 

Gear grind with RNG. How "exciting".

 

Regarding KotET: I liked the story. BUT: 8 classes are narrowed down into ONE story. A story made for force users.

[Lhancelot]

Still trying to figure out what "reasonable discussion" you are referring to. Developers being less motivated if they see negative forum posts? You having played one storyline and liking KotFE/KotET?

 

There are many players here who have been around for years. Those players have experienced first hand what BW SOP is: sell grind for content, release a buggy mess and off to prolonged vacation.

Yes, this IS bitter, because we are paying good money and don't deserve being lied to. Of course, even controversial topics should be discussed in a proper way, there is no justification for insults. Then again: sometimes it just gets too much. We have suffered through GC, now we get the same thing again, just worse!

 

Gear grind with RNG. How "exciting".

 

Regarding KotET: I liked the story. BUT: 8 classes are narrowed down into ONE story. A story made for force users.

 

Agreed. I also never revert to name-calling or insulting people personally no matter how irritated I get with the game. I simply point out the awful design changes and leave it at that.

 

Part of putting out a product is taking criticism whether it is constructive or not, by the way. It's just part of the deal. A good company wades through that, and identifies what is reasonable advice or feedback and what is not.

 

Also, a responsible company keeps up communication with it's customers. Lack of communication creates resentment.