Bolster Plans for 5.10 and Beyond

[taxidermis]

Personally I love the fact that they listened to the community and are increasing bolster to 252. imo no need to increase to 248. gives us something to work for.

[Neulwen]

Well I just saw this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=956069

offering another solution to the upcoming gear system.

[Monterone]

That is very good to hear, Eric. I did not know when 5.10 was hitting but I was on the verge of hitting unsubscribe the moment the patch went in. I just really wasn't looking forward to starting bolster low and going for another long grind -- it was unpalatable for me. This will help me for a tad longer.

 

I appreciate that you guys are listening and making changes based on feedback. My number one wish, and something that would make me come back and play more and for longer, would be easier gearing for all PvP toons. I only PvP and I like to play all classes. This is prohibitively difficult currently.

 

Let us min/max more easily so any toon can be played and enjoyed in PvP. Me love you long time if you get this done.

[Raansu]

That is very good to hear, Eric. I did not know when 5.10 was hitting but I was on the verge of hitting unsubscribe the moment the patch went in. I just really wasn't looking forward to starting bolster low and going for another long grind -- it was unpalatable for me. This will help me for a tad longer.

 

I appreciate that you guys are listening and making changes based on feedback. My number one wish, and something that would make me come back and play more and for longer, would be easier gearing for all PvP toons. I only PvP and I like to play all classes. This is prohibitively difficult currently.

 

Let us min/max more easily so any toon can be played and enjoyed in PvP. Me love you long time if you get this done.

 

They just need to bring back 4.x grind with pvp gear.

[BlackSilverRoar]

I agree: good job Devs, listening to the community. Edited November 11, 2018 by Willjb

[Monterone]

They just need to bring back 4.x grind with pvp gear.

 

Agreed. Going back on that design was one of the worst decisions ever made in this game.

 

Forcing people to focus on one or two characters and disregard the rest of this great game just seems to be the opposite of what a game designer would want. My mind is still boggled, a long time afterward, that anyone would approve this decision.

 

Oh and making PvP meaningful in some way even before max level would not be bad either.

Edited November 11, 2018 by Monterone

[Sheike]

Hey folks,

 

Whenever we introduce new gear to the game, there is an inevitable conversation about what changes will be made to Bolster. As I mentioned in this thread, our original intention in 5.10 was to take Bolster and move it to 248. That thread along with the rest of the forums led to a lot of great feedback from all of you on how you feel about the state of Bolster, should it be higher, or lower, etc. That brought us to sit down and really look at what we want from Bolster now and going forward and so we are going to make an additional change. Let’s talk about why we originally landed on 248, where we are going next, and why.

 

Addressing Master Work Gear and 248 Bolster

Simply put, in order to make Master Mode Gods From the Machine as terrifying as it should be we needed to have a larger item rating jump than usual for our new gear. As many of you likely know, typically a new tier of gear means a 6 item rating differential. In this case, since we wanted to balance against a higher target we opted to introduce two item ratings of growth at 252 and 258 as a part of a single tier. Historically, we have moved Bolster to be equal to the previous tier’s best in slot item rating. In this case, that makes it 248 (which is what we chose). However, since this tier jump was different it also meant that we couldn’t be 100% consistent. By choosing 248 it means there is a 10 item rating differential, where normally this is only a 6 rating difference. Even though it is a “one tier” jump, it actually creates a larger item rating differential than there usually is. To address this, we are going to be increasing Bolster in Game Update 5.10 to item rating 252 (previously planned to be 248).

 

Also, as a reminder we are not only adjusting Bolster on gear, but also on Augments. We are increasing Augment Bolster from 208 to 236. This will additionally help in closing the gap between BiS players and those being Bolstered.

 

Bolster Beyond 5.10

A number of players have brought up the idea of having Bolster be at the highest item rating available. Effectively making gear in PvP irrelevant, where skill is the only deciding factor. Although we understand the desire from players on that side of the debate, it does introduce some issues. If there is no gear chase from PvP that removes all progression from PvP gameplay and it also removes a part of the reward structure.

 

However, we do know that there has been unhappiness with PvP gearing in general in the 5.0 era, especially with the removal of Expertise. To make large itemization changes to PvP like that will require an equally large update, so this is the type of issue we will have to wait until an expansion sized update to tackle. We will consider a variety of options including reintroducing PvP specific stats/gear, Boslter changes, etc. and we will make sure to talk through planned changes with all of you when we get to that point.

 

Let us know your thoughts.

 

-eric

 

I admit you're correct about the necessity of progression through PvP, but I'm not sure that an entire expansion's worth of resources would really need to be expended in order to fill the gap in the reward structure for gearless PvP @ max level. I respect that the schedule is what it is, let me just give an example of something simple that might suffice: Reintroduce WZ commendations with a reward table tied into the Cartel Market with items available for purchase via comms, then other items available via comms + cartel coins.

 

- New rewards could be easily added/cycled to refresh incentive to get boots in the dirt.

- More CM cash flow.

- The virtual curbing of smear matches.

Everybody would win.

*whispers* It wouldn't hurt to throw in an 8 v 8 Tatooine map or a cool menu for the Cartel PvP rewards

[Totemdancer]

 

Oh and making PvP meaningful in some way even before max level would not be bad either.

 

Yes, yes & yes.... we need lowbies and mid pvp to be viable again. The best way to do that is to add proper incentives to get people playing there.

[Wimbleton]

Wonder what you guys will complain about when new gear and new bolster doesn’t help you win just like matchmaking, previous gear, previous bolster, augs and cross faction and all the other things you’ve whined about in the past.

[Totemdancer]

Wonder what you guys will complain about when new gear and new bolster doesn’t help you win just like matchmaking, previous gear, previous bolster, augs and cross faction and all the other things you’ve whined about in the past.

 

We’ll come here and complain of course and then you’ll point out that we’re whining and we’ll go round the same merry-go-round we do everytime of you whining about us whining

It’s a forum to discuss stuff. If you think we whine, then so be it. No one twists your arm to read it or drink wine.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Totemdancer

[Rafiknoll]

Wonder what you guys will complain about when new gear and new bolster doesn’t help you win just like matchmaking, previous gear, previous bolster, augs and cross faction and all the other things you’ve whined about in the past.

 

Dude, you don't know anyone's win rate and nobody knows yours (and your sig suggest you run with a premade of guildies so yours better be above 90% or it would be considered you suck ). No one here is complaining because their win rate is low and they think whatever they are talking about would make them win more. If you take one minute to think about it you would see the complaints and wins are not related:

"Gearing via PVP only is very slow compared to gearing via OPS giving raiders who PVP and advantage" - This doesn't mean the complainer will lose more because he could be matched with these NiM raiders as much as the enemy team could, so it is unrelated to the chances to win at all. It is purely about the individual who doesn't want to have a handicap whenever he enters a match, a handicap compared to his allies and enemies alike (those of them who are raiders) because he would rather skill played a better role in performance. That is all.

"Dsync" - everyone dsyncs now, everyone will not dsync if it is fixed. However, you look at it, fixing or not fixing dsync won't make anyone win more or less (except for the morons who know how to exploit dsync and do it on purpose), so this complaint is also not about wanting to win.

Even about matchmaking, half the people who advocated it used to win too much and stomp too much and they wanted matchmaking to balance things to make matches more challenging and less stompy for BOTH sides. Even that was never about winning.

 

BTW, matchmaking, gear, bolster and <insert anything besides skill>, will not help you win more.

Surprise, matchmaking won’t help you win.

Just like matchmaking, this will not help you win. #realtalk

Gaiz, just stawp. There’s no way they can structure this game so that u win.

 

Consecutive poorly-veiled pure condescendence will not help you sound more like a winner, or smarter. If you are a winner, the winning itself should be enough for you.

[Wimbleton]

In what realm does a raider have an advantage over a PvPer in PvP due to gear? Oh, yeah, that realm where the PvPer is 100% mediocre.

[Mantlers]

Thanks for listening Eric and team...I didn't expect much when I created a post on this topic, however it heartens me that you are taking steps towards considering the perspective of the PvP community.

 

For the record, gear progression is not an incentive for many players to do PvP. There are some more creative suggestions in this thread. Additionally, steps need to be taken to revitalise lowbies/midbies, perhaps that can be integrated into a better rewards scheme.

 

Lastly, there are some good suggestions on what future PvP gearing might look like here:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=956069

 

Hope you take the time to review.

[Rafiknoll]

In what realm does a raider have an advantage over a PvPer in PvP due to gear? Oh, yeah, that realm where the PvPer is 100% mediocre.

 

In the realm in which the raider is also a good PVPer? Really, you should have expected this answer, unless you assume it is impossible. Well, the fact that YOU can't excel in two different aspects of the same game simultaneously does not mean everyone else is as limited.

Ironic, isn't it? You use people's words only to assume bad things about their skills, but the axioms in your method of assumption only prove bad things about yours

And note that not only did you not deny your habit of repeated condescendence, but you also gave into it again...

[Wimbleton]

Ironic, isn't it? You use people's words only to assume bad things about their skills,

 

Did you not just do the exact same thing? HAHAHAHAHA, what a joke.

 

If you're being honest then you'll note that the vast majority of PVE oriented folks are not on the same skill level in PvP as the PvP-oriented folks. The only way that playing field is even is if A) the PVE players are skilled (vast minority) or B) the PVP players are unskilled (Vast majority). So it's not even an assumption, it's simply what I've experienced in >10000 games.

 

And who cares is the NIM raiders can get gear a little faster... there's been plenty of times when PVP players geared faster. I was in full 242 well before raiders were, when that was max. I was in 248 same day as it was released so again, before raiders could have been.

 

The biggest problem with your argument is that you put way to much emphasis on the importance of gear. It's 5% of the battle, maybe as much as 10% for equally skilled players. It's just that people who are mediocre can't seem to grasp that it's their own skill that causes them to get crushed, rather than the fact that the other guy has 1% more crit and another 4000 hit points.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Wimbleton

[Totemdancer]

In what realm does a raider have an advantage over a PvPer in PvP due to gear? Oh, yeah, that realm where the PvPer is 100% mediocre.

 

Why are you here posting this sort of stuff, Are you so bored with in game pvp that you’ve come to play forum pvp?

If so, you should go back to forum regs bedore you affect everyone’s rating

Edited November 12, 2018 by Totemdancer

[Storm-Cutter]

I don't understand why they couldn't make the new operation that much more difficult and save a lot of time and heartache over gear, progression and differing needs of PvE vs PVP.

 

What was so hard about adjusting the mechanics of the fight, adding more adds, making them hit harder or lowering the enrage timer by a few seconds? - ( as 4 examples)

 

If you can consistently beat a chess game on level five, do you try to redesign how rooks move and how many pieces you can take with a knight? --- Or do you try it on level 6?

SMH

[Rafiknoll]

Did you not just do the exact same thing? HAHAHAHAHA, what a joke.

 

Do I have to explicitly write "/sarcasm" for people to understand sarcasm? [in case so, /sarcasm. This question does not actually expect an answer because it is sar-cas-tic] Of course, that is exactly what I did. That was the whole point! I even used an emoji as an indicator. Just wanted to give you a first experience test of what a joke such an approach is.

 

If you're being honest then you'll note that the vast majority of PVE oriented folks are not on the same skill level in PvP as the PvP-oriented folks. The only way that playing field is even is if A) the PVE players are skilled (vast minority) or B) the PVP players are unskilled (Vast majority). So it's not even an assumption, it's simply what I've experienced in >10000 games.

 

The vast majority of PVE oriented folks aren't the NiM raiders. Your statistics might be right when considering the full community, but not when focusing on the NiM players themselves.

 

And who cares is the NIM raiders can get gear a little faster... there's been plenty of times when PVP players geared faster. I was in full 242 well before raiders were, when that was max. I was in 248 same day as it was released so again, before raiders could have been.

 

1. If PVPers gear faster than PVEers they won't have an advantage versus PVEers in PVE because you aren't versus players in PVE, so it causes less competitive imparity.

2. Many NiM raiders also do PVP because you can only have your team assembled for so many hours in a row per some days per week, so since they do PVP they won't be left behind. However, a great majority of the PVPers do not raid (and many don't do any content), so when gearing via NiM is a hundredfold faster, they are left behind.

3. The grand majority of NiM raiders get their gear faster than most good PVPers. I, for instance am doing "hybrid" lvling when I wish to progress fast (queuing for most queueable content of both PVP and PVE) and can get from lvl 1 (not CR lvl 1, Actual lvl 1) to lvl 70 and CR 300 in less than 48 /played hours, but I don't say because of that that gearing is fast. IDK what you did to get full 248 on release except for being really lucky with crates and having stocked many many UCs. This is not an indication

 

The biggest problem with your argument is that you put way to much emphasis on the importance of gear. It's 5% of the battle, maybe as much as 10% for equally skilled players. It's just that people who are mediocre can't seem to grasp that it's their own skill that causes them to get crushed, rather than the fact that the other guy has 1% more crit and another 4000 hit points.

 

Again, it is not that people experienced or are afraid of experiencing losses and blame it on the gear difference (heck, it didn't even happen yet!), but a difference of 10% between equally skilled players is unfair even if it is only on the paper. That is all there is to it.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Rafiknoll

[Wimbleton]

 

The vast majority of PVE oriented folks aren't the NiM raiders. Your statistics might be right when considering the full community, but not when focusing on the NiM players themselves.

 

 

Well joke, if they arent NIM raiders then they've no access to the good gear and are not part of this discussion.

[Neulwen]

Wimbleton, you are either trolling or missing the whole point.

 

What nearly all the posters here are saying is that skill and not gear should be the deciding factor in pvp, and that what we want, is good even games.

 

A 5% difference in stats is not insignificant in pvp. Take 2 players of equal skill level playing the same spec, and put them against each other numeous times. Statistically, the one with 5% better stats will have an advantage.

 

You cannot assume that no NiM ops players are good at pvp, and making a system around that assumption would be flawed and impossible. However, even if many or some pure pvpers are better pvpers than mixed players, it is not the plan that only NiM ops players will have access to the new gear. New gear can also be obtained by doing daily and weekly pve missions, and bought for a fortune of unassembled components. And who has a fortune of UCs? Pvpers who play a lot. Furthermore, even if the new gear was only obtainable in NiM ops, you really think no skilled pvper at all would do NiM ops to get it? Either way assumptions again. New gear can also be crafted and sold for a fortune of credits.

 

To reiterate: the problem is

 

1: Slow gearing in pvp, which means those who play a lot, or have a lot saved up, or also do pve, and only aim to gear up 1 char, will get good gear relatively fast, while the rest will be in weaker gear for a long time, which means more unneven pvp games for everyone for a longer time. This has nothing to do with skill. And it might take many months and maybe up to a year just to gear 1 char, depending on how much one plays. Pvp and pve gearing just don't work the same way, at least in a system that doesn't matchmake around it.

 

2: Having to do pve content (like daily/weekly planet missions) to gear up for pvp faster (or even at all if the reputation requirements stay). Not all pvpers enjoy doing this content. Some only enjoy pvp specifically. This might cause pvp players to leave, which is bad for those who stay, because there will be fewer players and thus fewer games and less even games.

 

These things have been mentioned plentiful times here on the forum already.

 

On the other hand you are complaining about players who enjoy pvp but aren't so good at it (and assume everyone here except you fit that category). How does it, theoretically, help if less skilled players are also at a gear disadvantage? Everyone has to learn and train to improve some time. Really how is gear imbalance in pvp a good thing at all?

Edited November 12, 2018 by Neulwen

[Raansu]

And who cares is the NIM raiders can get gear a little faster....

 

I care because I don't like being forced to do a different game type to gear at a decent pace. I only pve on the rare occasion and do pvp 99% of the time. Forcing players to do other content is not good game design.

[Wimbleton]

I care because I don't like being forced to do a different game type to gear at a decent pace. I only pve on the rare occasion and do pvp 99% of the time. Forcing players to do other content is not good game design.

 

So how are you certain that the rate at which you will earn your gear is not acceptable? You've no idea how fast gear will come. And even if you can theorycraft some idea, what is one thing they've done EVERY SINGLE GEAR GRIND EVER? Well, son, they make it a crap ton easier in a month or two.

 

Quit being so dramatic about gear. You'll be fine, unless you suck, then it won't matter anyways, gear or no gear.

 

Pretty sure I'll be geared way before a NIM team can get 112 pieces of gear.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Wimbleton

[Raansu]

So how are you certain that the rate at which you will earn your gear is not acceptable? You've no idea how fast gear will come. And even if you can theorycraft some idea, what is one thing they've done EVERY SINGLE GEAR GRIND EVER? Well, son, they make it a crap ton easier in a month or two.

 

Quit being so dramatic about gear. You'll be fine, unless you suck, then it won't matter anyways, gear or no gear.

 

Pretty sure I'll be geared way before a NIM team can get 112 pieces of gear.

 

Pretty sure you wont be, but whatever. And we know exactly how long it will take to gear because we've seen the setup on the PTS and we ALL know that is not going to change last minute. Whats on the PTS is what will be live.

 

I do fine in pvp regardless, but the point still stands that the grind forces you to pve and its incredibly anti alt friendly. I'd be happy with what we had during 3.x. Anything is better than the mess we have right now for pvp gearing.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Raansu

[Wimbleton]

Pretty sure you wont be, but whatever. And we know exactly how long it will take to gear because we've seen the setup on the PTS and we ALL know that is not going to change last minute. Whats on the PTS is what will be live.

 

I do fine in pvp regardless, but the point still stands that the grind forces you to pve and its incredibly anti alt friendly. I'd be happy with what we had during 3.x. Anything is better than the mess we have right now for pvp gearing.

 

It doesn't force you to PVE... it just forces you to grind. And who cares if PVErs have the gear slightly faster. If "you'll do fine in pvp regardless" then a few more stats wont be helping them anyway.

 

Not including the datacrons, you're looking at a stat increase from 248 to 258 of 560 Mastery, 710 End (8600 HP), 420 power and about 230 crit/alacrity. Bolster will be set at 252 so stats will be somewhere in the middle of that if you have NO new gear. As soon as you start acquiring 258s, the gap lessens and lessens. It's quite negligible.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Wimbleton

[Raansu]

It doesn't force you to PVE... it just forces you to grind

 

It 100% forces you to do pve.

 

And who cares if PVErs have the gear slightly faster.

 

I care because I liked what we had in 4.x. I got to constantly play around with stats for super cheap. If I wanted a stupid long grind I'd pve.