252/258 gear for "pure" PVPers

[DavidAtkinson]

Using UC gets more expensive every time you convert till it gets to the point of being unaffordable. They straight up said the UC method at best will gear 2 characters. How is that ok in an alt heavy game? It blows my mind that any pure pvper would be ok with this new tier grind.

 

Just give us pvp gear back so that we can gear quickly and be competitive without being forced to pve.

 

 

 

Did you watch the stream? This stuff isn't speculation, it was all stated directly by them in the stream.

 

 

Don't think you should be playing MMO's if you think like that bro.... Gives us PVP gear so we can gear 20 alts in one week. Nope. That's not how MMO's work.

 

You are too obsessed with gear wars. Yes, you will probably be face stomped a lot of times by Jeff who is probably 10 times richer than you in game and has bought all the gear from GTN.

 

Yes, welcome to MMO's.

[DavidAtkinson]

The 2 people antagonising people are only doing it to bait us into arguing with them.

Neither of them are “real” pvpers and so they don’t understand,

I’m pretty sure one of them didn’t even watch the stream and the other didn’t listen properly.

There are always a couple of trolls in white knight disguises to bait us or derail a thread.

Sometimes I wonder if Bioware pay people to derail threads that disagree with their decisions.

 

I only PVP in this game, mate.. and sure as hell don't obsess over gearing like you do. I will wait and see how it turns out. You gonna throw rocks at me because I don't think the way you do ?

 

Also... if it's hard to get gear so what ? You have one choice: stay or leave. Complaining all the time isn't a nice thing to do because it usually gets you nothing.

 

Again, you know nothing about how the system will work live. You will have multiple ways to get gear, UC's PVE,, Crafting....

 

... but your main problem is that you can't gear all the alts at the pace that you want.

 

They might make changes to the final version of this system before launch.

[Totemdancer]

I only PVP in this game, mate.. and sure as hell don't obsess over gearing like you do. I will wait and see how it turns out. You gonna throw rocks at me because I don't think the way you do ?

 

Also... if it's hard to get gear so what ? You have one choice: stay or leave. Complaining all the time isn't a nice thing to do because it usually gets you nothing.

 

Again, you know nothing about how the system will work live. You will have multiple ways to get gear, UC's PVE,, Crafting....

 

... but your main problem is that you can't gear all the alts at the pace that you want.

 

They might make changes to the final version of this system before launch.

 

But you do obsess with telling people they can’t discuss an issue they see as a problem. You also have the same choices if you don’t like it, stay or leave.

Complaining all the time about people complaining isnt a nice thing to do because all that does is upset people, unless that is your goal.

Again, you also don’t know how the system works and we may all be right and you wrong. You may find yourself in the same boat as us when it releases and finally understand why we were giving feed back to start with.

You only have one toon, so what... some of us have many and want to play them all instead of being stuck grinding only one toon for months.

Just because you don’t have any Alts, “You gonna throw rocks at me because I don't think the way you do ?“ or play the way you do.

Our opinions and feed back to the Devs are valid. If you dont like the commentary, you don’t have to participate in the feed back to the “Devs” on what “we”, not you, think about this gearing system.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Totemdancer

[nepochop]

The 2 people antagonising people are only doing it to bait us into arguing with them.

Neither of them are “real” pvpers and so they don’t understand,

 

What is that supposed to mean? I made this thread to show that the way PVPers will be gearing in 5.10 will be unfair in comparison to the PVEers. NiM raiders will get 258 gear much faster than PVPers and can come into ranked and have an advantage over the PVPers who will be slowly converting their UCs per week per toon.

 

This is an important fact since there is no PVP gear anymore. I came to forums to address this and was hoping for people to also stress their unsatisfaction about it. I am glad people did that and now I hope Bioware will change this system so that it will be fair.

[taxidermis]

What if they cap bolster at 258 or downbolster 258 to 248 for wz... woudnt that solve the issue??

[Mycroft-Tarkin]

What if they cap bolster at 258 or downbolster 258 to 248 for wz... woudnt that solve the issue??

 

Yes! It would.

[Rion_Starkiller]

Why are you antagonising everyone and being unpleasant?

Pure pvpers matter as much as you do.

Don’t think you are a hardcore gamer and we are casuals just because we dont play what you do.

I usually play 30-40 hours a week, how does that make me a casual gamer.?

Our enjoyment of the game matters as much as yours.

Coming here and arguing for or whiting knighting a bad system that most people hate doesn’t earn you any friends.

Telling people it’s a cry thread is close to troll baiting.

 

I'm here for spicy forum drama, not yet-another complain thread. TBH, this is the closest to fair gearing that I've seen in a long time.

 

Don't pure pvp'ers get tired of the same maps/matches over and over? A lot things are going to seem unfair to someone who only does 1 type of content. This game has never catered to pvp'ers.

 

On a more upbeat note, I do like your suggestion of bringing back 4.0 gearing in the other thread. We can hope for 6.0. But I'm sure there will be a bunch of complain threads for that gearing as well.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

[KendraP]

What is that supposed to mean? I made this thread to show that the way PVPers will be gearing in 5.10 will be unfair in comparison to the PVEers. NiM raiders will get 258 gear much faster than PVPers and can come into ranked and have an advantage over the PVPers who will be slowly converting their UCs per week per toon.

 

This is an important fact since there is no PVP gear anymore. I came to forums to address this and was hoping for people to also stress their unsatisfaction about it. I am glad people did that and now I hope Bioware will change this system so that it will be fair.

 

You're not the one the person who wrote that is talking about, friend.

 

They are referencing the "pvp should be a pve level gear grind involving pve" crowd.

 

What if they cap bolster at 258 or downbolster 258 to 248 for wz... woudnt that solve the issue??

 

Probably depending on how good bolster is... i know currently having actual 242 gear is obscenely better than having say 230 gear and being bolstered to 242.

 

I made this comment in the general area thread on this subject:

I also would have no issue with gear being exclusive to MM if it gave no advantage in pvp. But since it does give MM raiders an advantage over actual pvpers, there should be an equally fast route for both player types to gear. (I.e. if it takes 3 weeks to totally gear via MM it should be 3 weeks to totally gear via PvP.)

 

Coupled with the direction I see them going toward for group pvp, my time will be spent somewhere i can still have fun. Which, for the first time in 6 years is not swtor.

 

As a long time and dedicated subscriber and player, to include being a guild leader, I feel totally abandoned and unappreciated by the direction the game is heading.

 

I mean it - if better gear had no impact on pvp, then whatever. Add all the gear grind elsewhere you want for NiMers.

[Raansu]

Don't think you should be playing MMO's if you think like that bro.... Gives us PVP gear so we can gear 20 alts in one week. Nope. That's not how MMO's work.

 

You are too obsessed with gear wars. Yes, you will probably be face stomped a lot of times by Jeff who is probably 10 times richer than you in game and has bought all the gear from GTN.

 

Yes, welcome to MMO's.

 

This is a stupid and antiquated argument. Being an MMO doesn't mean pvp should have a massive gear gap. 4.x was the perfect gearing pace, and yes if gear is going to be part of pvp then it should 100% be easy to gear up. That or remove gear from pvp completely. It shouldn't take months to gear up and be competitive in pvp.

 

Progression is perfectly fine in pve, but that **** has no business in pvp.

 

 

Also... if it's hard to get gear so what ? You have one choice: stay or leave. Complaining all the time isn't a nice thing to do because it usually gets you nothing.

 

Yet another stupid argument. PvP community is at an all time low, the pvp forums are barely active and you're telling people to leave if they don't like something that is completely unhealthy for pvp? This mindset is why 5.x has killed the pvp population. The white knighting of "leave if you don't like it." Guess what, the pvp community did leave. Its barely alive right now.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Raansu

[alexsamma]

You're not the one the person who wrote that is talking about, friend.

 

They are referencing the "pvp should be a pve level gear grind involving pve" crowd.

 

 

 

Probably depending on how good bolster is... i know currently having actual 242 gear is obscenely better than having say 230 gear and being bolstered to 242.

 

I made this comment in the general area thread on this subject:

 

 

I mean it - if better gear had no impact on pvp, then whatever. Add all the gear grind elsewhere you want for NiMers.

 

Bolster doesn't bolster tertiary stats, it only bolsters mastery and endurance.

 

At one point it was not correctly bolstering armor rating either, not sure if they fixed this.

 

Even when we had 250 bolster players in higher Ilevel gear had an advantage over players in lower ilevel gear.

 

Bolster, in it's current implementation, is not the right answer.

[Thaladan]

didn't wrote since months...

 

just to say that gear system si so outdated ... and kills litterally the balance in pvp.

 

class balance is apparently not possible due to the dev ability, and they add a bad option : gear grind.

 

PvP players don't ask a lot : a general and effective bolster and class balance....

Edited October 13, 2018 by Thaladan

[DavidAtkinson]

This is a stupid and antiquated argument. Being an MMO doesn't mean pvp should have a massive gear gap. 4.x was the perfect gearing pace, and yes if gear is going to be part of pvp then it should 100% be easy to gear up. That or remove gear from pvp completely. It shouldn't take months to gear up and be competitive in pvp.

 

Progression is perfectly fine in pve, but that **** has no business in pvp.

 

 

 

Yet another stupid argument. PvP community is at an all time low, the pvp forums are barely active and you're telling people to leave if they don't like something that is completely unhealthy for pvp? This mindset is why 5.x has killed the pvp population. The white knighting of "leave if you don't like it." Guess what, the pvp community did leave. Its barely alive right now.

 

10 people posting on PVP forums is hardly representative of the PVP cummunity's numbers.... No mindset has killed this game since 5.0. It's the lack of content and new things to do that's killing it. You think WOW doesn't have gear grind ? I heard it's worse than in SWTOR, yet 10 times more people play it because it gets content on a regular basis.

Edited October 13, 2018 by DavidAtkinson

[Eloi_BG]

So I haven't read past the first 2-3 posts so apologies if it has already been said, but when I see Grim's walls of text it kinda makes me not want to read a thread.

 

You have something wrong in your understanding. Gear doesn't get more expensive (component wise) as you gear characters. It gets more expensive as you convert UC to shards through the week. Every week the progress resets. It is a way to slow the gearing so people can't get full set on day 1 if they have a lot of UCs.

[Raansu]

10 people posting on PVP forums is hardly representative of the PVP cummunity's numbers.... No mindset has killed this game since 5.0. It's the lack of content and new things to do that's killing it. You think WOW doesn't have gear grind ? I heard it's worse than in SWTOR, yet 10 times more people play it because it gets content on a regular basis.

 

WoW's pvp community has been in a decline since they moved away from pvp gear.

[Totemdancer]

What is that supposed to mean? I made this thread to show that the way PVPers will be gearing in 5.10 will be unfair in comparison to the PVEers. NiM raiders will get 258 gear much faster than PVPers and can come into ranked and have an advantage over the PVPers who will be slowly converting their UCs per week per toon.

 

This is an important fact since there is no PVP gear anymore. I came to forums to address this and was hoping for people to also stress their unsatisfaction about it. I am glad people did that and now I hope Bioware will change this system so that it will be fair.

 

/sigh.... I didn’t mean you. I actually agree with you.

 

It’s the other two people arguing with everyone and being rude and telling us we are complaining because we don’t like this announced gear system.

[Totemdancer]

This is a stupid and antiquated argument. Being an MMO doesn't mean pvp should have a massive gear gap. 4.x was the perfect gearing pace, and yes if gear is going to be part of pvp then it should 100% be easy to gear up. That or remove gear from pvp completely. It shouldn't take months to gear up and be competitive in pvp.

 

Progression is perfectly fine in pve, but that **** has no business in pvp.

 

Yet another stupid argument. PvP community is at an all time low, the pvp forums are barely active and you're telling people to leave if they don't like something that is completely unhealthy for pvp? This mindset is why 5.x has killed the pvp population. The white knighting of "leave if you don't like it." Guess what, the pvp community did leave. Its barely alive right now.

 

We had a healthy and vibrant pvp community until 5.0 was released. With in 6-8 weeks a massive chunk of people left and continued to leave because of the stupid gear and changes to classes.

 

Gearing in 4.0 was perfect, especially when they finally gave us the ability to move pvp Comms around. Something we’d been asking for years. 4 months later they introduce this terrible gear grind and ruined 5 years of gearing developement that had finally got it perfect.

 

Pure pvpers don’t play for grind or more content. If we did we all would have bailed well before Kotet and Kotfe. We probably would have bailed before 3.0 because all the content focus was on pve Raiders and their stupid gear grind. Pvpers got nothing for 5 years. All we got was lip service and ranked 8 man replaced with the travesty that is 4v4 ranked.

 

The only thing pvpers had going for us was we had an alright gearing system. So our new content was changing Alts and playing other people. We lived like that for 5 years and kept playing. It should have been obvious to Bioware that pvpers didn’t need a gear grind to play longer. But it should be obvious after 5.0 that gear grinding in pvp makes people leave the game or it doesn’t make us play longer.

 

All 5.0 gearing has done is killed pvp. It’s destroyed the ability to lvl up in pvp because nobody plays lowbies or Mids. That in turn has destroyed the quality of lvl 70 pvp because people can’t play. It’s made a vast number of skilled pvpers leave the game. It’s made pvp less fun. It’s created gear gods. Bioware then added gear grind stupidity to ranked and made it mat farming central. They killed all semblance of Alt hopping with the ridiculous gear grind. That effectively killed “my new content” that I got from swapping characters. On top of all of that we can hardly play some maps because of desync.

 

Bioware have systematically killed pvp since 5.0 was released. By either arrogance, incompetence, mistakes, not listening to feed back or all of the above. The only thing they got right was cross faction, but then they killed that too by introducing matchmaking that doesn’t work.

If they make this new gearing worse for pvpers than this one and we have a big gear gap that allows the rich players or MM players the ability to dominate as gear gods, that will be the end of pvp. It nearly is the end now. Just look at the state of play in pvp, it’s an utter joke.

The best thing Bioware could do for the health of pvp is bring back “exactly the same pvp gearing system we had in 4.0”. That would encourage people to play pvp as they lvld and it would bring back players who left over the gear grind. Both would help increase the skill lvls again in lvl 70 pvp.

[Raansu]

We had a healthy and vibrant pvp community until 5.0 was released. With in 6-8 weeks a massive chunk of people left and continued to leave because of the stupid gear and changes to classes.

 

Gearing in 4.0 was perfect, especially when they finally gave us the ability to move pvp Comms around. Something we’d been asking for years. 4 months later they introduce this terrible gear grind and ruined 5 years of gearing developement that had finally got it perfect.

 

Pure pvpers don’t play for grind or more content. If we did we all would have bailed well before Kotet and Kotfe. We probably would have bailed before 3.0 because all the content focus was on pve Raiders and their stupid gear grind. Pvpers got nothing for 5 years. All we got was lip service and ranked 8 man replaced with the travesty that is 4v4 ranked.

 

The only thing pvpers had going for us was we had an alright gearing system. So our new content was changing Alts and playing other people. We lived like that for 5 years and kept playing. It should have been obvious to Bioware that pvpers didn’t need a gear grind to play longer. But it should be obvious after 5.0 that gear grinding in pvp makes people leave the game or it doesn’t make us play longer.

 

All 5.0 gearing has done is killed pvp. It’s destroyed the ability to lvl up in pvp because nobody plays lowbies or Mids. That in turn has destroyed the quality of lvl 70 pvp because people can’t play. It’s made a vast number of skilled pvpers leave the game. It’s made pvp less fun. It’s created gear gods. Bioware then added gear grind stupidity to ranked and made it mat farming central. They killed all semblance of Alt hopping with the ridiculous gear grind. That effectively killed “my new content” that I got from swapping characters. On top of all of that we can hardly play some maps because of desync.

 

Bioware have systematically killed pvp since 5.0 was released. By either arrogance, incompetence, mistakes, not listening to feed back or all of the above. The only thing they got right was cross faction, but then they killed that too by introducing matchmaking that doesn’t work.

If they make this new gearing worse for pvpers than this one and we have a big gear gap that allows the rich players or MM players the ability to dominate as gear gods, that will be the end of pvp. It nearly is the end now. Just look at the state of play in pvp, it’s an utter joke.

The best thing Bioware could do for the health of pvp is bring back “exactly the same pvp gearing system we had in 4.0”. That would encourage people to play pvp as they lvld and it would bring back players who left over the gear grind. Both would help increase the skill lvls again in lvl 70 pvp.

 

Amen, a-freaking-men.

[Totemdancer]

Amen, a-freaking-men.

 

You might be interested in a thread I just made about the gearing system as we know it from the PTS and why it’s inherently unfair and will probably kill pvp. : http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=955056

Edited October 14, 2018 by Totemdancer

[Glower]

I do not think they will ever return easily obtainable PvP gear or expertise... so 258 bolster or i'm done again.

 

"Thanks" Bioware Austin, you really something.

[Lundorff]

The best thing Bioware could do for the health of pvp is bring back “exactly the same pvp gearing system we had in 4.0”. That would encourage people to play pvp as they lvld and it would bring back players who left over the gear grind. Both would help increase the skill lvls again in lvl 70 pvp.

 

Bringing back the old gearing system is the only sane and rational solution, so naturally that will never be implemented. Much better to create a rich vs. poor system that will continue to drive pvpers away.

 

Sigh.

 

One thing is for certain, I will never play an EA / BW game again once this adventure is done. Not even a new SW MMO.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Lundorff

[Raansu]

Bringing back the old gearing system is the only sane and rational solution, so naturally that will never be implemented. Much better to create a rich vs. poor system that will continue to drive pvpers away.

 

Sigh.

 

One thing is for certain, I will never play an EA / BW game again once this adventure is done. Not even a new SW MMO.

 

I say that, but who am I kidding, its SW. I keep coming back to this game because its SW, even if its only to play for a few days and then not log in for a year lol.

[merovejec]

Bringing back the old gearing system is the only sane and rational solution, so naturally that will never be implemented. Much better to create a rich vs. poor system that will continue to drive pvpers away.

 

Sigh.

 

One thing is for certain, I will never play an EA / BW game again once this adventure is done. Not even a new SW MMO.

 

This is actually true, before you could make a new character, level up through PVP and by the time you have reached top level you would just use all the PVP comms you have gathered to buy full ranked gear for that character! That was really neat! No grind, no credits involved.

 

Now, you will be forced to either do PVE content or farm credits, which is very very hard for some people with little time to play.

[Mournblood]

So if I understand what I am hearing on the PTS, it takes 4 shards to make one piece of gear, assuming you have the schematic.

 

You can purchase 1 shard for 500 UC, and a 2nd shard for 1000 UC, per week.

You are rewarded 1 shard from the new FP on MM.

You are rewarded 1 shard from doing the new planet weekly mission.

 

So basically, without raiding, you can get one piece of gear per week, per toon, assuming you have the schematic. Given that there are 14 pieces of gear on a character sheet, it will take 14 weeks, or 3.5 months per character (though you can do more than one character simultaneously if you have the time). I'm not even going to guess at the cost in credits to get the schematics.

 

Whereas someone doing the Iokath raid on NM can get one piece of gear per week (or more depending on the loot rules of their respective guild), and the schematics to make the gear or to sell on the GTN, not including the other methods available to everyone else, which if they are truly motivated, they can also do to get two pieces of gear per week, and effectively cut their gear progression time in half.

 

I don't think it's inaccurate to say that there are at most 10 guilds per server that are capable of successfully clearing Iokath on NM. I don't count the try-hards out there who might get down a boss or two, but then wipe and are unable to complete the remaining raid. If we do the math on the assumption that these raiding guilds are going with 8-man raids, that's roughly 200 players total (10 guilds x 8 players in reach raid x 5 servers), across all servers, who are actively and consistently clearing Iokath NM content. The last speculation I heard on total active player population (excluding F2P), someone came up with about 10k. Whether that's right or wrong, if we use that figure for the sake of this argument, 200 out of 10k is .02, or 2%.

 

So can anyone explain how on God's green earth, approximately 2% of the remaining player base is getting favored for a new tier of gear over the other 98%? Does that make any sense to anyone outside of the oxygen deprived office of Bioware Austin? I really don't get it.

 

If they are trying to force players back into raiding, it won't have the intended effect.

[Mantlers]

Dear Keith + Bioware Team,

 

I implore you to consider implementing an alternative gearing system for the PvP community, to your proposed 252/258 gear. I'm going to keep the reasons why this hurts us (BADLY) in a concise list below:

 

1. Many PvPers don't do PvE. Obtaining the means to gear up through a PvE gearing system is forcing people to participate in an aspect of the game they may not enjoy in order to grind gear.

 

2. You are penalising the Casual player: The Data Crystals you mention are obtainable for "Casual" players by doing the weeklies on multiple characters and then transfer over the mods via legacy - will Casual players really have the time to do weeklies on multiple characters? And at an ever increasing cost of UC? This doesn't sound Casual to me. Believe it or not, some of us have jobs and families and lives outside of the game, playing recreationally in our spare time.

 

3. The Craft option: How about crafters that are PvPers? Are they now supposed to be able to jump into a Gods MM and to obtain mats? This isn't realistic for many (even hardcore PvE'ers struggle with this ops) and nor should you expect a PvP player to need to do PvE in order to get mats for crafting.

 

4. Market creation: This will create a hyper-inflated market for mats, held in the hands of the MM PvE community who will be able to charge whatever they want. At least with T-ranked, anyone can give it a go and still eventually be rewarded without too much complexity.

 

In summary, you've made it astoundingly difficult and not enjoyable for PvPers like myself and many others to obtain high end gear. Some of us are still trying to gear alts in 248....

 

There was nothing wrong with the old 204/208 system for PvP - it was in fact perfect and put everyone on the same level playing field. Take a look at what they're doing in GW2 where they essentially make skill and not gear, the focus for PvP. Thanks for listening.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Loyal + Casual PvP Player that is hanging in here all these years despite many bad decisions by Bioware.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I do not think they will ever return easily obtainable PvP gear or expertise... so 258 bolster or i'm done again.

 

"Thanks" Bioware Austin, you really something.

 

I think the best move is PVP gear again as well. Plus that comes with the added benefit of enabling the devs to make the appropriate and need class balancing changes when there is an issue with one in one area of play without also effecting the other area of play where it may not be as much of an issue.

 

If 5.x has taught us anything it's just how bad class imbalances can be and how demoralizing they can be as well. Worst meta ever.

 

I'm fine with the bolster solution but it's not quite as advantageous I think than the PVP gear route for 2 reasons, 1 - as mentioned above and 2 as bloster won't effect tertiary stats so people who do have to 258 gear [ which I will be one of because I love gearing] will still have a slight lead in tertiary stats over those who don't have it. It won't be a big difference, but, for a player base like PVP is in this game so conscious of such imbalances and so desiring of skill based outcomes some may take exception to it, even if it really won't make that much of a difference.

 

That said, either one of those options seem better than what is proposed. I personally have no issue with how it is now or will be if they do it as they are proposing, but I'm sure that's because I was a raider for so long and new gear and gear grinding are near and dear to raider's hearts. I cannot deny that I am clearly in the minority in that perspective and thus I'd put voice behind whatever the PVP majority thinks would be best. Better to have happy players than to feed my greed with a carrot.

 

I'm mostly just in it for the bloodshed anyways.

Edited October 15, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx