Next tier only available from crafting? Guess I'm quitting unless BOLSTER IS CAPPED

[Totemdancer]

The population is too low to devote queues for different reasons. They even had to make cross faction and reduce the overall time of warzones gameplay to fix problems with low pops.

 

This I already know.

[Jdast]

This I already know.

 

Yet other comparable games disprove your hypothesis.

 

Dasty

[Totemdancer]

Yet other comparable games disprove your hypothesis.

 

Dasty

 

What, that there aren’t enough people to test your idea? Sorry to tell you it’s a hard fact that there aren’t.

 

I think if you took the time to look at how long the pops are during the whole day or how many of the same people are in the same matches together (even when you break the rotation by not requing straight away), you would see that your idea isn’t possible.

You can’t compare other games with more people to this situation, especially not world of Warcraft.

 

Your idea could have been tested 2 years ago when we had enough players. But not now because the queues are not big enough.

If you split the population into anymore queues it will decrease the amount of people in the one queue and create longer pop times. Which Bioware have categorically said pop times are their most important consideration when it comes to pvp.

Its why they said just this year that they wouldn’t split queues. It’s not a hypothesis if the Devs have come out and said it.

 

I have always wanted seperate queues like Warcraft has. I came from there and liked how you had a choice of maps or type of map. They set it up properly and had extra rewards to play all maps and also had a champion map of the week where you got bonus rewards. This kept the queues viable for all maps, even the hated maps.

 

But Bioware didn’t copy this system like they copied every other blizzard idea. If they were going to copy it, the time was 4 years ago when we had plenty of people to make it work. Now we don’t even have enough people for them to create a seperate reg arena queue.

 

It’s why I responded to your other post and said “if only we had people to test it”.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Totemdancer

[Ardrossan]

Yet other comparable games disprove your hypothesis.

 

Dasty

 

I always enjoy your forum repartee, Dasty.

[Malckiah]

Ok, I am not saying I agree or disagree.

But lets consider if they did bolster it so gear didn't matter.... then what?... what would we work for?

I mean yes pvp is fun, but even I find myself the need to feel that I am earning something by doing well.

So what would I be earning? And how would they make it so I could KEEP wanting to earn that, whatever it is?

[Andryah]

Ok, I am not saying I agree or disagree.

But lets consider if they did bolster it so gear didn't matter.... then what?... what would we work for?

I mean yes pvp is fun, but even I find myself the need to feel that I am earning something by doing well.

So what would I be earning? And how would they make it so I could KEEP wanting to earn that, whatever it is?

 

PvP for PvP sake? You know.. for the fun and sport of PvP.

[Jdast]

PvP for PvP sake? You know.. for the fun and sport of PvP.

 

Which is why my proposal utilizing my Hutt-like intelligence reigns supreme. Have two separate queues. Human psychology is a complicated thing. There are some PvP-ers, I call them purists and that is not derogatory in any way, who enjoy it simply for the sport. I imagine most would be fine if they threw in some vanity titles / mounts / even vanity gear.

 

But as this thread (and frankly every single thread on this subject in every single MMORPG forum I've ever graced with my presence ) demonstrates -- there exists a different demographic -- one that states if I PvP more, I should get tangible progression rewards that make me stronger vis a vis other players (and potentially PvE encounters), which encourages me to PvP even more.

 

Purists will continue to claim PvP should only ever be about skill. Human psychology suggests that applies to some, but not all. The way to please both is to have a bifurcated system. Everyone wins! If one system doesn't get enough players queuing, of course, that is telling in and of itself.

 

Glad we finally disagree on something again!

 

Dasty

Edited September 22, 2018 by Jdast

[Malckiah]

PvP for PvP sake? You know.. for the fun and sport of PvP.

 

Yes, I love pvp'ing. But there is no getting away from the simple fact that most people will not continue to do so without a carrot.... something they can continue to EARN or GET for their efforts and time. I mean if you do well in the game... what good is it if there is nothing earned? Nothing to work for? pvp'ing without a carrot gets old and people stop doing it.

[Andryah]

Yes, I love pvp'ing. But there is no getting away from the simple fact that most people will not continue to do so without a carrot.... something they can continue to EARN or GET for their efforts and time. I mean if you do well in the game... what good is it if there is nothing earned? Nothing to work for? pvp'ing without a carrot gets old and people stop doing it.

 

So... basically... bribe players to PvP so pure PvPers for PvP sake have more playmates in PvP? Yeah.. that does not really work though, because there seem to be two main demographics a play here: 1) the avid PvPer who is in it for the PvP. 2) the gearhead PvPer who won't queue unless there are goodies to be had for their effort (ie the arms-race-driven players).

 

Sure.. there is some gray zone between the two demographics (ie: a PvPer who loves PvP for PvP sake... but also only will play PvP in an MMO if there are goodies to be had) but that does little to dilute the reality that there are mainly two demographics working at cross purposes to each other... yet within a PvP environment.

 

All the studio has to do to put this age old debate to rest is to make gear non-relevant to PvP play and see what happens. PvP will continue to crash I believe because there are not that many pure PvP for PvP sake players in MMOs anymore.. and I blame WoW for making PvP an instanced goodie-vending-machine play model that has subsequently proliferated to most other MMOs.

 

Now.. a more progressive approach would be to bolster PvP to always = best gear available AND then reward perks for performance that are only actually effective in PvP... be they new skills or gimmicks or whatever. That would solve the "grind for gear" tear fests, and still give PvPers something in the form of an arms-race-to-chase.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Andryah

[phalczen]

Again, I think the notion that this tier 5 gear is going to be so common among exclusive pvp'ers so as to be a significant problem is false. There just aren't enough people in the game that are simultaneously master mode raiders and high tier pvp'ers. The ones that do, well, they probably deserve every bit of hundredths of a percentage point of difference they get. Yeah, I'm saying that a player who can do MM Gods from the Machine and be gold tier in solo ranked probably deserves it (exclusive of win-trading, other similar cheating, and paying for carries.) Even if there were a significant # of those types of "double-threat" players, if the only source for the materials and schematics are MM ops, and you'll have to share them with the other members of your raid group, the impact of the gear is going to be even smaller as its diluted across other 248 pieces.

 

The devs had ample opportunity to change Bolster when 248 gear was in development and released, and they intentionally chose to keep a gear grind. I know on the forums there were plenty of pvp'ers in favor of not having a gear grind at all. I guess if you're not going to have separate pvp gear (Expertise r.i.p.), or a pathway for it, then its reasonable to just move Bolster up to the highest tier. While its possible the Devs could change their minds, I wouldn't plan on it.

 

All that being said, I think capping item ratings at 248, or bolstering to 248 (obviating the gear grind entirely), are reasonable suggestions if there is no pathway for an exclusive pvp'er to obtain tier 5 gear, even though I think people are over-estimating the extent of the problem. I think separating the queues into those that don't care about gear and those that do is like trying to use a jackhammer to kill an ant... you're going to do a lot more damage than good. There's already a separate queue for people who don't care about CXP rewards and only care about pvp … its called solo-ranked. There's already separate "queues" for people who don't have or care about a gear grind and just care about pvp … they're called Outlaw's Den, the Ilum Circle Western Ice Shelf pvp area during the Gree event, and pvp gameplay focus instances. All of these negate player stats, and exist mostly for the thrill of pvp. How popular are they?

[Yeldah_]

You are all going to leave over gearing?!? Did the command crate fiasco not harden your skin? Not even a little? Personally I've stabbed and kicked in the nuts so many times by past dev decisions that this new gear will be nothing but a flea bite. Another set of gear is just an inconveniance; nothing more.

[Totemdancer]

So... basically... bribe players to PvP so pure PvPers for PvP sake have more playmates in PvP? Yeah.. that does not really work though, because there seem to be two main demographics a play here: 1) the avid PvPer who is in it for the PvP. 2) the gearhead PvPer who won't queue unless there are goodies to be had for their effort (ie the arms-race-driven players).

 

Sure.. there is some gray zone between the two demographics (ie: a PvPer who loves PvP for PvP sake... but also only will play PvP in an MMO if there are goodies to be had) but that does little to dilute the reality that there are mainly two demographics working at cross purposes to each other... yet within a PvP environment.

 

All the studio has to do to put this age old debate to rest is to make gear non-relevant to PvP play and see what happens. PvP will continue to crash I believe because there are not that many pure PvP for PvP sake players in MMOs anymore.. and I blame WoW for making PvP an instanced goodie-vending-machine play model that has subsequently proliferated to most other MMOs.

 

Now.. a more progressive approach would be to bolster PvP to always = best gear available AND then reward perks for performance that are only actually effective in PvP... be they new skills or gimmicks or whatever. That would solve the "grind for gear" tear fests, and still give PvPers something in the form of an arms-race-to-chase.

 

You can have incentives to pvp that aren’t gear related. There are whole threads dedicated to this idea if you go looking. It’s been suggested many times in the last 6 years.

 

GW2 pvp rewards are cosmetic and so are Overwatch rewards. Neither require gear grind to pvp and their pvp is healthy.

 

Some pvpers will pvp with no rewards, some people won’t. It doesn’t mean the rewards need to be gear grind releted. They can just as easily be cosmetic related.

 

IMHO, the best solution to the over all problem is to increase bolster to max level gear and make gear irrelevant in pvp. Add another type of incentive scheme for playing pvp.

 

The other option, which is a bit more messy and probably more time consuming to implement is to have seperate gear for pvp. Revert pvp gearing back to the way it was obtained before 5.0, with 2 gear levels and a pvp stat like expertise.

Give Comms for playing all levels of pvp and allow people to accumulate them and buy gear from vendors at level 70.

[Malckiah]

IMHO, the best solution to the over all problem is to increase bolster to max level gear and make gear irrelevant in pvp. Add another type of incentive scheme for playing pvp.

 

This should be a New Thread all its own.... Something about the way you said it is perfect... This is the answer in my opinion.

[Andryah]

This should be a New Thread all its own.... Something about the way you said it is perfect... This is the answer in my opinion.

 

It's been included as part of every discussion thread about the coming tier 5 gear already.

 

So.. no.. it does not need it's own thread as the players have spoken in multiple threads about this approach and the studio clearly knows what is being expressed.

 

Now.. whether the studio listens to this input and complies or not is completely up to them... and no amount of teeth gnashing threads will change that.

Edited September 23, 2018 by Andryah

[Totemdancer]

It's been included as part of every discussion thread about the coming tier 5 gear already.

 

So.. no.. it does not need it's own thread as the players have spoken in multiple threads about this approach and the studio clearly knows what is being expressed.

 

Now.. whether the studio listens to this input and complies or not is completely up to them... and no amount of teeth gnashing threads will change that.

 

It’s also been suggested for many years. But Bioware would prefer to rehash old gearing systems that failed in the past instead of trying something new.

[mhobin]

Which is why my proposal utilizing my Hutt-like intelligence reigns supreme. Have two separate queues. Human psychology is a complicated thing. There are some PvP-ers, I call them purists and that is not derogatory in any way, who enjoy it simply for the sport. I imagine most would be fine if they threw in some vanity titles / mounts / even vanity gear.

 

But as this thread (and frankly every single thread on this subject in every single MMORPG forum I've ever graced with my presence ) demonstrates -- there exists a different demographic -- one that states if I PvP more, I should get tangible progression rewards that make me stronger vis a vis other players (and potentially PvE encounters), which encourages me to PvP even more.

 

Purists will continue to claim PvP should only ever be about skill. Human psychology suggests that applies to some, but not all. The way to please both is to have a bifurcated system. Everyone wins! If one system doesn't get enough players queuing, of course, that is telling in and of itself.

 

Glad we finally disagree on something again!

 

Dasty

 

Separate queues? Do we play the same game? There is nowhere near the player base to support splitting any queue in any manner.

 

Most PvPers are not motivated by gear. They like winning and showing other people they won. People don’t play ranked for the gear, they play to get a flaming rancor mount that they can ride around fleet showing everone how good they press buttons.

 

The fallacy is that PvPers play for the gear because as of now it is one of the easiest ways to 248.

 

Give us cosmetic and credit rewards and most all PvPers are cool.

[Jdast]

Separate queues? Do we play the same game? There is nowhere near the player base to support splitting any queue in any manner.

 

Most PvPers are not motivated by gear. They like winning and showing other people they won. People don’t play ranked for the gear, they play to get a flaming rancor mount that they can ride around fleet showing everone how good they press buttons.

 

The fallacy is that PvPers play for the gear because as of now it is one of the easiest ways to 248.

 

Give us cosmetic and credit rewards and most all PvPers are cool.

 

TL-DR: Your post either supports my argument or makes little sense as it contradicts itself in two fundamental ways.

 

1) If you are right that "most PvPers are not motivated by gear" then there is little to no harm in having separate queues. So, I wholeheartedly support (as I have repeatedly noted) giving cosmetic gear, fancy titles, fancy mounts, etc., to those who queue for non-progression related rewards.

 

After all, if you are correct then "most all PvPers" will be cool with that. So no harm done with a separate queue. Let the gear dependent scrubs wallow in queue hell while the true PvPers have their queues pop like microwave popcorn.

 

2) If you are right that PvP is one of the "easiest ways to 248" then the gear grind is not, by your own words, arduous; ergo, making bolster BiS or set level is a moot issue. Keeping the gear grind makes both sides happy since your queues will pop ever so slightly faster.

 

So, yes, I do play the game. If you are so comfortable in what you say, there is minimal harm in testing my hypothesis. Indeed, there could be a benefit since many suggest the current system drives pro-bolster BiS / set ilvl PvP-ers away.

 

How the new crafting system interacts with PvP is obviously still an open question and I'm on record saying that it should be obtainable through means outside of just NiM Ops.

 

Dasty

Edited September 24, 2018 by Jdast

[Rion_Starkiller]

You are all going to leave over gearing?!? Did the command crate fiasco not harden your skin? Not even a little? Personally I've stabbed and kicked in the nuts so many times by past dev decisions that this new gear will be nothing but a flea bite. Another set of gear is just an inconveniance; nothing more.

 

This.

We've already been guillotined by GC.... what's another knife stab?

 

PvP for PvP sake? You know.. for the fun and sport of PvP.

 

PvP with no reward or grind is like chasing your own tail. I need something -- anything -- to work toward.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

[Khevar]

PvP with no reward or grind is like chasing your own tail. I need something -- anything -- to work toward.

If you had the choice, would you prefer that PvP rewards were:

 

1. Gear with better stats, or

2. Something else (cosmetics, titles, ranking, status)?

[Rion_Starkiller]

Probably #2. I don't mind grinding gear for pvp when there is a new expansion with +5 more levels.

 

With ranked, you're grinding expensive rare mats and ELO. I guess that's good enough. What incentive would there be for warzones?

 

Maybe Valor should have a purpose and continue past 100... but it becomes similar to Galactic Command.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

[TUXs]

If you had the choice, would you prefer that PvP rewards were:

 

1. Gear with better stats, or

2. Something else (cosmetics, titles, ranking, status)?

 

#2 for sure. Decos even,

[Jdast]

If you had the choice, would you prefer that PvP rewards were:

 

1. Gear with better stats, or

2. Something else (cosmetics, titles, ranking, status)?

 

I would add a third compromise choice:

 

3. Cosmetic gear, titles, decos, etc. and a currency like UC's that are only useful in PvE encounters. The implication being that people enter WZ's with same Ilvl, but PvE-ers still have incentives to participate and feel rewarded. Tis a compromise, albeit imperfect since it doesn't resolve the AFK incentive problem.

 

Dasty

Edited September 25, 2018 by Jdast

[TUXs]

I would add a third compromise choice:

 

3. Cosmetic gear, titles, decos, etc. and a currency like UC's that are only useful in PvE encounters. The implication being that people enter WZ's with same Ilvl, but PvE-ers still have incentives to participate and feel rewarded. Tis a compromise, albeit imperfect since it doesn't resolve the AFK incentive problem.

 

Dasty

Good idea Dasty...I really like that!!!

[Transcendent]

Regarding what typical PVPers want is easy to see, all you got to do is look back in the past. When the gear rating was capped at 174, it took months just to reach min/max gears on a toon. People hated it. People complained about it.

 

BW changed the gearing system by allowing players to save WZ comms in all tiers of PVP and even added vendors that sold all forms of mods and PVP gears. Gearing alts became easy, and PVPers raved about the gearing system.

 

Then 5.0 came out. Gearing became a slogfest grind again. Gearing alts became a massive chore, and players again became disenchanted with the gearing system change which in turn caused many hardcore PVPers to leave the game, myself included.

 

Just used a refer a friend link to reply to this thread. Have not been subscribed for quite some time and for various reasons as a background for those that haven't seen me post here previously.

 

Lhancelot has this pretty much correct in regards to the gearing aspect. There isn't anything that needs to be added to this aside from a working bolster system for PvP players who don't have the correct gear. I.E. balanced stats for all players. Set bonuses can be the differentiation in PvP along with class mix and a working matchmaking system, slightly longer queues would possibly be negated if players knew that going into this they wouldn't end up with imbalanced teams, or 4v2 / 8v4 scenarios.

 

BioWare made a fundamental error with gearing in regards to PvP. I'll leave my thoughts on the gearing system overall out of this, aside from to say it isn't the best experience with the RNG or alternative grind for players with multiple characters. All of the tinkering still hasn't resolved this, the system was broken from the outset.

 

This isn't a slate the developers post either, I have tremendous respect for them.

 

Edit: Suffice to say, I've remained unsubscribed due to the gearing system.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Transcendent

[ALaggyGrunt]

Then they don’t understand the pvp players psyche. Pvpers are more likely to play more and for longer if it is skill vs skill. You only need to look at how successful games like Overwatch are to understand that people don’t need gear grind or even gear to play Pvp.

 

Overwatch has a horrendous grind that tries to burn you out and make you buy things, but it's exclusively for chances at shiny things that don't give you any game-mechanics advantages, just social ones.

 

Maybe the PvP part of this game should work like that?