Tank Shielding Changes Coming in 5.9.2

[KendraP]

What about force and tech attacks? If the enemies were all classes which are mostly force or tech this change does almost nothing? I like the change but if the above is true, i don't think people will change and if they did then DPS players would stop playing certain classes.

 

Shield does work against F/T damage. M/R can be defended (i.e. def rating, which is near-asymptote as it is for pve) and I/E is unmitigatable. I also noticed Musco commented on

 

There are a few reasons for this which we would still like to address down the line, but we have one change planned for 5.9.2

 

This seems to imply that there are further changes being considered but they are still too preliminary to be announced.

 

For me personally, I think this will be a good first step.

Edited June 30, 2018 by KendraP

[AdjeYo]

What about force and tech attacks? If the enemies were all classes which are mostly force or tech this change does almost nothing? I like the change but if the above is true, i don't think people will change and if they did then DPS players would stop playing certain classes.

 

Force tech attacks aren't necessarily non-shieldable. It's just internal/elemental attacks that bypass shield. So you'll be able to shield a devastating blast, but not a Thundering Blast

[Rafiknoll]

I like these changes, and I suspect (and hope) they are just preparing the ground for either or both of the following:

 

1. A general nerf for the armor damage reduction of player attacks. That would mean that the difference between 100% skank tanks and DPS of the same class in damage reduction will be diminished. As things currently are, heavy armored tanks have around 50% DR from armor, and that part of their defensives is absolutely not affected by their tanky stats. That means that where a jugg DPS takes 70% damage (due to his ~30% DR), a skank tank would take only 50% damage (due to his ~50% DR), and that is without even counting the shield which passively has a 20% chance to drop multiply the damage again by 0.8 (aka drop additional 20%), resulting in 40% of the max damage (while the DPS, as I said, take 70%). For assassins, the difference between tanks and DPS DR is 40%+ for tanks and approx 20% for DPS if not less. Same concept. Nerfing the effect of DR for all classes would mean the differences who are dependant on it will be less significant, tanking stats will take better role in making a defensive difference, and as a bonus, all TTK will be reduced for all classes.

 

2. Make shield affect redirected guarded damage (if it doesn't already) and increase the redirected damage accordingly. If it gets too dangerous for skanks to guard, they will be far less effective as tanks, and will probably also become inviable in Ranked completely.

 

I really hope the above is what BioWare has in mind. I shelved my tank (who was a real tank) when they nerfed his damage, and I will return to it now, but I don't want to simply become OP if there are no consequences.

 

By the way, a technical question (only the devs can answer it now, after the patch it can be tested, I suppose):

Is the shield getting a separate roll after the crit roll, which is completely independent of it, or do you just make shield effect additive to the crit roll when they hit an overlap?

I will use an example to explain that question, let's say I have 60% shield chance (assassin DW FTW) and my enemy has 50% crit, how does it work:

 

1. One roll for crit (1-100, hits below 50 mean crit) and another for shield (1-100, hits below 60 mean crit), which means that eventually, the chances are:

30% for crit + shield

20% for crit without shield

30% for shield without crit

20% for regular damage

[This is the most logical option, but it means an additional roll for each attack, so the game will essentially become slightly slower]

 

2. One roll for both (like it currently works) but when the hit is in the overlapping area, both crit and shield happen, and shield is computed from the opposite side of crit, meaning hits below 50 mean crit, and hits ABOVE 40 (that's 60 backward from 100) mean shield, and thus hits in range 40-50 crit and shield, so:

10% for crit + shield

40% for crit without shield

40% for shield without crit

0% for regular damage

That could also work. This is the option which makes the least difference, but it still IS a great tank buff and crit DPS nerf.

 

3. One roll for both but when the hit is in the overlapping area, both crit and shield happen, and shield is computed from the SAME side of crit, meaning hits below 50 mean crit and hits below 60 mean shield, so:

50% chance for crit+shield

0% for crit without shield

10% chance for shield without crit

40% for regular damage

This is a crazy buff for tanks which will probably result in them 1v1ing any DPS even without being backed by a healer. I main a tank and I tell you DON'T do that

 

For comparison, the current situation in the same case is that shield is counted from the opposite side of crits and in overlaps, only crit counts, so it is:

50% chance for crit without shield

50% chance for shield without crit

[You can notice that the only chance for a sin tank with DW and tank gear to take regular damage is I/E damage]

 

[i know all the above is just true for sin tanks before other tanks can barely reach 50% even if they try, but the maximum is what counts. Even if only sins become THAT OP, fotm rerollers will just go for the sins]

[AdjeYo]

@Rafi there's no difference between taking damage through guard or directly as far as mitigation is concerned. So you can shield/defend against damage taken through guard as long as it's shieldable/defendable in the first place.

[Rafiknoll]

@Rafi there's no difference between taking damage through guard or directly as far as mitigation is concerned. So you can shield/defend against damage taken through guard as long as it's shieldable/defendable in the first place.

 

I wasn't sure. That's what the "(if it doesn't already)" was for, but thanks for the info.

Still, I suppose that with shield affecting crits (and thus redirected crit too), real tanks will not feel it so badly if guard dealt them increased damage, but skanks will have to reconsider their purpose in life

[Wimbleton]

I just want to put this here so I can later quote it and look cool: You're all going to be complaining about just how unkillable tanks are.

[Lhancelot]

I just want to put this here so I can later quote it and look cool: You're all going to be complaining about just how unkillable tanks are.

 

Since we telling prophecies... Mine is that tanks will be super hard to kill but will get a nerf to guard, skank tanks will be eliminated by genius dev work, and DPS will end up getting a boost to damage. You heard it here first, folks.

[SlimeyDoom]

Are you really gonna say that Ranked is competitive or the 'hardest content in the game'?

Cheating isn't competitive, it is the very opposite of competitive.

 

The same Arenas in ranked, pop on regs.

Arenas, aren't hard. They're arenas.

 

Team A - 1 healer, 1 tank, 1 Sniper, 1 merc

 

Team B - 1 DPS Guarduan, 1 DPS Shadow, 1 DPS Sorc, 1 Combat Sentinel.

 

Let's assume all parties involved are competent. That can go either way, right? Yeah, that's real competitive.

 

This kid has never set foot in ranked lmfao...

I love it when bad players accuse everyone of cheating, as if getting high rating this season legit was hard or something. Are there people who exploited and cheated for rating? Yes. Is everyone who has high rating cheating? Queue up yourself and find out.

 

Grim honey, you're a below average marauder who's been playing regs for years and years. Leave talking to the grown ups please!

[Banderal]

Here is a very basic example. Let’s say a normal hit would do 1,000 damage and a critical hit would do 2,000 damage. You are a tank and when your shield procs, you reduce damage by 25%. Previously you could reduce the normal hit to 750 damage, but would always take the 2,000 from a crit. After 5.9.2 you can also reduce the critical hit damage down to 1,500.

-eric

 

Very late in the thread, but I just realized I have a question about this. The way I understood the whole crit/normal/shielded relationship was that a hit was ONE of the three. That is, if you had a 30% crit chance attacking a 20% shield chance, then the hit was a crit 30% of the time, a shielded hit 20% of the time, and neither 50% of the time. And then when crit + shield > 100%, it was crit that won out. So if you had 70% crit vs. 50% shield, the net result of that was a 70% chance at a crit, a 30% chance at a shielded hit, and ZERO percent chance a normal hit.

 

What I originally thought you meant by "critical hits are now affected by shield/absorb" was that it reversed the "crit trumps shield", and it will become "shield trumps crit". (Even though that's not what you actually typed. ) So with the last example above, the net result would change to 50% crit (down from 70), 50% shield and still ZERO normal.

 

But then that would mean we would never actually shield a crit, as in your example. Shield would just lower the crit chance, and give a bigger chance (when the two bump together) of having a "shielded normal hit".

 

Maybe you don't care to go into that much detail about how it will actually work, but does your example mean that the entire crit/normal/shield roll mechanic is changing?

[AdjeYo]

Very late in the thread, but I just realized I have a question about this. The way I understood the whole crit/normal/shielded relationship was that a hit was ONE of the three. That is, if you had a 30% crit chance attacking a 20% shield chance, then the hit was a crit 30% of the time, a shielded hit 20% of the time, and neither 50% of the time. And then when crit + shield > 100%, it was crit that won out. So if you had 70% crit vs. 50% shield, the net result of that was a 70% chance at a crit, a 30% chance at a shielded hit, and ZERO percent chance a normal hit.

 

What I originally thought you meant by "critical hits are now affected by shield/absorb" was that it reversed the "crit trumps shield", and it will become "shield trumps crit". (Even though that's not what you actually typed. ) So with the last example above, the net result would change to 50% crit (down from 70), 50% shield and still ZERO normal.

 

But then that would mean we would never actually shield a crit, as in your example. Shield would just lower the crit chance, and give a bigger chance (when the two bump together) of having a "shielded normal hit".

 

Maybe you don't care to go into that much detail about how it will actually work, but does your example mean that the entire crit/normal/shield roll mechanic is changing?

 

I'm assuming it just means shield gets a seperate roll from crit. So first you roll for crit, then you roll for shield. So with the 70% crit and 50% shield, you're looking at:

35% non-shielded crit

35% shielded crit

15% non-shielded regular

15% shielded regular

The only other option I saw someone note that could be true considering what Musco said is that shield gets checked from top to bottom. So you roll between 0 and 1, below 0.7 is a crit. And above 0.5 is a shielded attack. However the first suggestion would seem the most sensible assumption to me.

[VaeVictis]

but skanks will have to reconsider their purpose in life

 

Not when they have an 8k+ healer backing them up against sub 2k DPS.

Edited July 1, 2018 by VaeVictis

[SOULCASTER]

Tanks are fine in PvP as is, so long as you stop allowing DPS specs to guard.

Problem solved, then Tanks would be viable.

[Banderal]

I'm assuming it just means shield gets a seperate roll from crit. So first you roll for crit, then you roll for shield. So with the 70% crit and 50% shield, you're looking at:

35% non-shielded crit

35% shielded crit

15% non-shielded regular

15% shielded regular

The only other option I saw someone note that could be true considering what Musco said is that shield gets checked from top to bottom. So you roll between 0 and 1, below 0.7 is a crit. And above 0.5 is a shielded attack. However the first suggestion would seem the most sensible assumption to me.

 

Yes, I can see how either of those would be possibilities. The 2nd one seems a bit weird, because that would give a 50% chance for an non-shielded crit, a 20% chance for a shielded crit, and a 30% chance for a shielded regular. So no chance for a non-shielded regular. But I guess, given those crit & shield rates, the way it is right now there is also no chance for a regular hit.

 

I was just looking for clarification about whether they actually are changing the mechanic something like that, or if the example Eric put in his post was mistaken.

[Lhancelot]

Tanks are fine in PvP as is, so long as you stop allowing DPS specs to guard.

Problem solved, then Tanks would be viable.

 

With them taking away stances to simplify the trees etc., I wonder how they are going to kill skanking tbh.

 

Only way I can think of is if they make specific gear unusable when changing specs.

 

DPS gears would only work on DPS specs, and tank gears only would work with tank specs.

 

How would they do this though? Could they code gears to work like that?

[AdjeYo]

Tanks are fine in PvP as is, so long as you stop allowing DPS specs to guard.

Problem solved, then Tanks would be viable.

 

Because the real scourge in pvp right now are those damn ap pt's and rage juggers throwing out guards. It isn't tanks in dps gear that are kinda op right now, no it's all the dps with guard (just for the record, i wouldn't mind guard removed from dps, hell i would like that, but it wouldn't magically fix the tank/skank issue)

[Lhancelot]

They need to do what FFXIV did. Warriors were just stacking strength for more dps, so they made it so that the tank stats boosted their damage and nerfed how much they got from strength. It lowered their damage overall, but they still did crazy good dps while also being able to be an actual tank again instead of just being the glorified off tank that was treated as a dps.

 

Also, guard needs to be removed from the dps specs in swtor.

 

Maybe they could do something like this too.

[Banderal]

With them taking away stances to simplify the trees etc., I wonder how they are going to kill skanking tbh.

 

Except they didn't take away stances, they just took away the ability to choose between them. My shadow tank has "Combat Technique" in her tree at level 12. My shadow DPS does not, she has "Shadow Technique" at level 12. I have guardian tank who has "Soresu form" at level 12 in his tree. I see Vigilance has "Shien Form" at 12, and Focus has, well... nothing. I guess Focus uses the default original form/stance?

 

So the stances/techniques are still there, they are just forced now instead of letting us switch between them. I was actually a bit surprised when the change in the trees happened, that DPS retained the guard ability. From the outside looking in, it sure seems like they must have done some extra work to make that happen. Because, AFAIK, the DPS'rs no longer have the "tank stance" as an ability, but the tanks do. So I guess guard must no longer actually be tied to that stance.

[Lhancelot]

Except they didn't take away stances, they just took away the ability to choose between them. My shadow tank has "Combat Technique" in her tree at level 12. My shadow DPS does not, she has "Shadow Technique" at level 12. I have guardian tank who has "Soresu form" at level 12 in his tree. I see Vigilance has "Shien Form" at 12, and Focus has, well... nothing. I guess Focus uses the default original form/stance?

 

So the stances/techniques are still there, they are just forced now instead of letting us switch between them. I was actually a bit surprised when the change in the trees happened, that DPS retained the guard ability. From the outside looking in, it sure seems like they must have done some extra work to make that happen. Because, AFAIK, the DPS'rs no longer have the "tank stance" as an ability, but the tanks do. So I guess guard must no longer actually be tied to that stance.

 

Yeah that's true. So what is the solution to fixing skanks?

[Lalainnia]

Like a bunch of others have said Guard needs to scale with defensive stats excluding augments up to the level it is currently while having it at a base level of 5%

 

They might need to nerf healing a tad or slightly buff trauma as tanks being able to shield critical hits will be huge (VG/PT)

[Banderal]

Yeah that's true. So what is the solution to fixing skanks?

 

Well, since you asked nicely... I don't know.

 

I don't even keep track of the terms, skank is the DPS spec that guards? That one I wish they would just take guard away from DPS specs. Mostly because I'm a "purist" about tank. And while SWTOR is a complex inter-connected mesh of abilities and counter abilities, where making 1 "small change" can have unintended consequences, I don't foresee that taking guard (and even taunt) away from DPS specs would shift things all that much.

 

Extending that to other abilities, like off-heals, as has been suggested... I dunno. Seems like off-heals might be too tied into a class' survivability. On the other hand, I'm also not a big believer in the whole 1-v-1 viability thing. I don't actually believe that a healer BY THEMSELVES should be able to stand up to more than one equal DPS, NECESSARILY. IMHO, 1-v-1 is "undefined" in this game. A healer mixed in with anything else should, other things being equal, take out 2 DPS, or 2 healers or 2 tanks. Basically, the mix should be greater than the parts, so what happens to the parts when they are caught solo should not matter for balance. Just my opinion, of course. But that leads me to believe that "I don't necessarily care" about what happens to solo-survivability by taking away off heals. So yeah, maybe non-tanks should lose taunt and guard, and maybe non-heals should lose heals too?

 

The other side, tanks that wear DPS gear? I think the philosophy behind that is actually pretty simple. "A good offense makes for a good defense". If I can kill them quicker, then I'm still there, and I can heal up afterwards. I remember, I think 3.0 or 4.0 era, when I first started paying any attention to numbers at all, and was running a shadow tank. I finally put crit/power mods and augs into my gear and OMG, I COULD KILL THINGS!

 

I don't know if that can be fixed. Peple who want to do more DPS will gear for it. In fact, I'm not sure it even should be fixed. Even now, if you get a couple decent tanks and a couple decent healers (which will be allowed even with the new matchmaking), games can turn to boring stalemates pretty fast (in my experience - maybe because I'm a bad DPS). If tanks are made even more tanky, and correspondingly do less DPS, then things die even slower all around. And even as an "objective player", I find those games are usually pretty boring. I don't like parsing exercises.

 

But then I don't dig that deep into the game, don't play ranked, don't have all the abilities of all the classes at my fingertips, etc. So what do I know? Nothing really.

[Rafiknoll]

Killing skanks is what I had in mind when I wrote this:

 

A general nerf for the armor damage reduction of player attacks. That would mean that the difference between 100% skank tanks and DPS of the same class in damage reduction will be diminished. As things currently are, heavy armored tanks have around 50% DR from armor, and that part of their defensives is absolutely not affected by their tanky stats. That means that where a jugg DPS takes 70% damage (due to his ~30% DR), a skank tank would take only 50% damage (due to his ~50% DR), and that is without even counting the shield which passively has a 20% chance to drop multiply the damage again by 0.8 (aka drop additional 20%), resulting in 40% of the max damage (while the DPS, as I said, take 70%). For assassins, the difference between tanks and DPS DR is 40%+ for tanks and approx 20% for DPS if not less. Same concept. Nerfing the effect of DR for all classes would mean the differences who are dependant on it will be less significant, tanking stats will take better role in making a defensive difference, and as a bonus, all TTK will be reduced for all classes.

 

Remember, once skank tanks are nearly is vulnerable to damage as DPS, they won't be able to take the risks they are taking, so they won't be able to compensate for the lower rotational DPS by attacking more time than their true DPS specs currently can survive. That puts skanks in a worse place than any DPS in terms of damage dealt / damage received, and thus no one will play them that way.

[SlimeyDoom]

You have never played with me, you know how I know that? You called me honey, so either you think I'm a girl, or you are a tinker bell. And even if that is just your fairy-like nature [i'm sure you even you can pick up the insinuation] How would you know how I do in Regs? I thought you were a big ranked Fairy, what are you doing in Regs with me and the rest of the Plebs? I have done ranked, you don't get a say in it, and I can't help but notice that you didn't show any evidence or your numbers like I called you out on.

Trying to make out, like you can tell what kind of player someone is, because of ANYTHING in the world that is said on a posting board, is, in a word dumb as all hell.

There is only one reason you will not show your numbers and are hiding behind BS excuses to make accusations that you will not provide the slightest evidence for even when challenged publically to do so. Wussing out out of fear.

I don't know any man that could let that slide, so, like I said I would in my last response, when I said I know you wont back up anything you said with any proof whatsoever as to show how bad I am and and great you are,

I'll be getting you a dress for your birthday. Let me know if there is anything you are particularly fond of here - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=940783

 

Honey's for bees, Tinker bell.

 

P.S. All cheaters admit to it, right? I'm the only one that thinks that about Ranked. The only one who has expressed that in the last 5 minutes, that is. You're quite the actor, you're fooling everyone. Keep hiding.

 

Ok. Let's play this game then

 

For starters, almost all the players who do group ranked also do regs occasionally, as the group ranked queue doesn't pop the majority of the time unless you're lucky enough to be on Darth Malgus.

 

Now for your second point, you keep saying I don't have "numbers" or "evidence". I'm not sure exactly what you want me to say about this: my initial post was calling you out for not knowing how ranked matchmaking works. If you're looking for evidence as to me playing ranked, here are some numbers for you I guess.

 

My Sage: http://www.swtor.com/leaderboards/character/4611689330592894075

My first Sorc: http://www.swtor.com/leaderboards/character/4611689035381426743

My second Sorc: http://www.swtor.com/leaderboards/character/4611689031953166235

My third sorc (work in progress): http://www.swtor.com/leaderboards/character/4611689632653207283

My operative: http://www.swtor.com/leaderboards/character/4611689645607507707

 

My rating isn't that high to be fair, but I don't cheat, I don't 2v4 boost (unlike some in the group ranked community), I don't backfill, and I don't wintrade. I just queue up.

 

Now, you said I can't tell what kind of player you are, in response to me calling you unqualified to comment on ranked in this game. I've been operating under the assumption that you are the marauder from Star Forge called Grim'alkun, so let's take a look at your "ranked experience" that you claim to have. If this is not you, feel free to post your character's rating like I have done.

Grim'alkun: http://www.swtor.com/leaderboards/character/4611687857000985746

With a whopping 0 wins and two total kills in solo ranked, I feel that I was right in that you don't have the experience to comment on ranked in this game. I've also seen your regs performance, and it was quite disappointing to say the least.

 

As for the dress, I'd love one in blue or yellow

Edited July 1, 2018 by SlimeyDoom

[KendraP]

Seeing as grim has said he doesnt do ranked, why would we expect his rating to be high?

 

That says nothing about how good he is, if it is him.

[giorgo]

I like these changes, and I suspect (and hope) they are just preparing the ground for either or both of the following:

 

1. A general nerf for the armor damage reduction of player attacks. That would mean that the difference between 100% skank tanks and DPS of the same class in damage reduction will be diminished. As things currently are, heavy armored tanks have around 50% DR from armor, and that part of their defensives is absolutely not affected by their tanky stats. That means that where a jugg DPS takes 70% damage (due to his ~30% DR), a skank tank would take only 50% damage (due to his ~50% DR), and that is without even counting the shield which passively has a 20% chance to drop multiply the damage again by 0.8 (aka drop additional 20%), resulting in 40% of the max damage (while the DPS, as I said, take 70%). For assassins, the difference between tanks and DPS DR is 40%+ for tanks and approx 20% for DPS if not less. Same concept. Nerfing the effect of DR for all classes would mean the differences who are dependant on it will be less significant, tanking stats will take better role in making a defensive difference, and as a bonus, all TTK will be reduced for all classes.

 

Lol.I am sorry (not really),but this is hilarious. Do you have any clue what you are talking about?

Do you have any idea what this kind of change would require? Pvp mechanics, utilities that rely on armor, passives that increase armor by x% amount, passives that increase armor penetration by x% amount (carnage has it's core ability revolving around bypassing armor for example), literally every single defensive cooldown in the game, several set bonuses, all that would need to be reworked based on your idea .

So basically your idea of fixing tanks is to...make a new game from scratch i guess?

 

You got a reservation for the worst ideas ever Hall of Fame thread i suppose.

 

Eagerly waithing for your wall of text reply,

Edited July 1, 2018 by giorgo

[Rhodaria]

My guild is waiting for the WZ Changes now, we don't participate in any matches now- some weeks ago, we did some WZ for getting characters full in the conquest. And it was... yea... I think I don't have to say what happens, when you throw two DPS with 230er gear in a Match with 14 248er.

 

We are PvE-Players and we do only unranked PvP, and that only when we have a very masochistic day xD

 

The problem with skank tanks is a PvP Problem- and it should be solved in PvP. Not by reducing some stats- guys, the stats are the same for PvE. And reducing Healing just because some people think "omg, if a tank absorbs more, the healer has to do less HPS"... guys... play False Emperor Master Mode with buggy Jindo Kray. Battle of Rishi master Mode. Yea, it is PvE... very boring... unless you play MM FPs or OPs.

There is a reason healers do the amount of healing (imo Saboteurs do less then needed, but that's not the point here).

 

I think, taking gear stats out of PvP could be a good way to test PLAYERS. It is PvP- not GvG. In PvE, a low level character can be better than 70 with 248- just because he knows what he's doing. In PvP, my high geared Sorcs had less problems without knowing what they do as same geared people in PvE without a plan what to do.

 

Letting critical hits be absorbed/shielded by tanks is a good idea, though, maybe some skanks go back to tank then, when they list in a group. It is not the job of a tank to do damage and there can't be a simple solution for such a complex problem. But many little steps can solve it