The fleet has been, and always will be, the social hub of SWTOR

[Joonbeams]

I don't diagnose pneumonia with a single chest radiograph (x-ray), nor do I use multiple serial x-rays over days to diagnose it since the x-ray lags behind how a patient is doing, and can look abnormal for weeks after a patient leaves the hospital. The chest x-ray is one of many pieces of data I integrate to determine the proper diagnosis.

 

Fleet pop at any given time point, or even trended over several days, is the same way. It is one piece of data. It's incorrect to call it representative.

 

If there were 5 people on the fleet, but you were solo-queued for unranked warzones, and you got pop-after-pop-after-pop without seeing the same players in the back-to-back matches, would you still draw the same conclusions?

 

I think this analogy, to the extent it even works, over-complicates and obscures the point. If you wanted to diagnose pneumonia, you would, of course (by your own statements), use x-ray. To be a bit more precise, you wouldn't argue that x-ray changes were irrelevant or "not representative." Remember, what's being tracked here is not any absolute number, i.e. a "snapshot" in time (i.e. an isolated x-ray in time using the analogy), but the change in the number over time, holding as many other variables constant as possible (i.e. the x-ray progression over time, using this "analogy").

 

To continue the analysis, the fact that you would or could also use other data points is nice and interesting, but beside the point. You wouldn't argue that changes on x-ray (normal --> abnormal or abnormal --> normal) aren't "representative" of the pneumonia state (improving, failing, non-responding). And the fact that there are outliers, other usable data points, peculiar situations, etc. is not also relevant to the question of whether or not (per this analogy), changes on x-ray are "representative" of the diagnosis, progression, etc. of pneumonia.

 

The fact that you could diagnose and treat entirely without x-ray doesn't strengthen the rebuttal either. There is a gold-standard way to know what the server's game population is - and that's the hard numbers from the devs (I imagine there is one for pneumonia too, such as looking directly into the lungs). Seeing as we will never get those, changes in the fleet population is, always has been, and always will be* a useful proxy for in- game population at any given time.(*see "counters" below).

 

I might as well keep going. The inescapable point being made here is that the observed decline in in-game fleet population (controlled for variables) == decline in the population of players playing the game. That's the takeaway point, that's the 800lb gorilla in the argument. Given that, I think the only way to credibly rebut this is to:

 

1. Attack the underlying observation (i.e. there is no observed decline): I haven't seen anyone making this argument, so I will ignore it for now.
   
2. Posit new, or changing variables (e.g. there are new reasons why now the fleet is less relevant to players than in the past -- in other words, "there's not observed decline, just faulty measurement"): I've seen people try to make this point, but those arguments have been pretty thin and weak. But to be consistent, that argument is at least still viable (albeit on life support) and waiting for a well-researched/reasoned advocate.
   
3. Attack the underlying assertion (i.e. the fleet never has, and can't be, a useful indicator): These are simply the worst of the arguments and, for at least the reasons above, they don't hold any water...
   

[Lhancelot]

For some people.. I'm sure Fleet is the social hub. For more and more players though... Fleet has no real value to them... you know.. people who actually have friends and are in an active guild.

 

Fleet is my friend. Fleet is my guild.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I've read a lot of posts lately with some confused people that don't seem to understand the correlation between fleet numbers and server numbers. They are directly correlated. Yes, a lot of people are in strongholds, or on planets, etc., etc...but that has been the case for the past several years.

 

When 5.0 first came out, before servers merged, the first couple months there were multiple fleet instances. Game still had strongholds. Still had planets. Still had wz's, ops & flashpoints. After a couple months, and people got burnt out on CXP grind, we started losing population and fleet instances ALSO went down. To the point they had to merge servers.

 

After server mergers, the first few months had multiple fleet instances. Game still had strongholds. Still had planets. Still had wz's, ops & flashpoints...yet there were multiple fleet instances, because that is where people like to hang out when they are not doing stuff. Lack of content, lack of ranked rewards and season progression and other factors have slowly caused people to take another break from the game. And guess what? Fleet numbers have gone down.

 

Someone asked me, what's your point in showing the population decline? Well, call me crazy but I want to see the game survive. I wrote countless forum pieces before and shortly after the release of 5.0 that listed many warnings about the direction of the devs but they were ignored or scoffed at, though they have all pretty much been proven true.

 

Obviously, I care about the game. I take time to voice my concerns. I'm still subbed. I got my girlfriend to sub recently and I've been playing with her as she is leveling her character. She likes to pvp but it's really disheartening to wait in midbies queue in PRIMETIME for over an hour and still not get a pop on a MERGED server.

 

Can't speak for other servers but Star Forge still has 3 instances of fleet most of the time. One of those is at like 180 or so.There's only one reason you find multiple instances and that because another filled up and they need a new instance to accommodate other players logging in. A lot of people talk on fleet from their Guildship and I think you can as well from your Stronghold, I'm not into SH crap so I'm not 100% show. Guildships I am sure of. Unless you can check the numbers of players currently in WZs, FPs, Uprisings, Heroics, Operations, GSF, doing story, on various planets, crafting, erping, parsing, on personal ships, doing dailies, you cannot get an accurate picture of player numbers currently logged into the game. I would however say that fleet is something of a measure.

 

If you never see more than 100 people on fleet, if you seldom see multiple instances of fleet, than yeah, that's a bit telling for that server. But only that server.

 

I don't see any of that happening on Star Forge ever. Neither you or I or anyone can check all the servers to see population differences between them unless a person has characters on every server. [Anyone who has characters they actively play on all servers, please go outside, for the love of God =p] I'm very happy with the state of Star Forge and I see no cause for concern there. Right now for example it's 10:30 EST and there are three instances, one has 155, the second has 173, and the third about 50. That's not bad.

 

Midbies/lowbies pops aren't great on any server, there is too much emphasis on gearing and galactic command crap and gearing times. If you try to maintain multiple character under those conditions you will make a nightmare of a time for gearing. People who enjoy end game play the most just want to get important characters geared so they can play and maintain them in 70's group content.

 

There have been many population losses over the course of 5.x, the meta has been an unmitigated disaster. Even with those losses in mind, I see no cause for concern over the state of the game or of imminent shut down.

 

They are making widespread changes to PVP, They have invested tons of money in the server merges, they are currently working on 6.0 and it has been confirmed and along with it a brand new storyline which will bring the War between the Empire and the Republic back into view. You don't make investiments like that if you are contending to shut the lights off anytime soon.

 

EA has put a lot of limitations on BW financially speaking while they want more emphasis on the development of Anthem which is going to fail miserably because no self respecting SWTOR lover spend one dime on Anthem because of throat hold it has left SWTOR in. Between that and server merge investiment, it isn't hard to understand the trickle of new content we have seen in 5.x. Maintenance mode means no new content ever, just the maintaining of what is presently available in game. So we can rule that out in terms of concerns.

 

This game has been dead and dieing since 1.0 if we consider all the times people have been saying the same crap.Opinions may vary of course, and to each their own, but as for me, I'm not at all worried or unhappy with the state of things on Star Forge. Is it perfect? No, but the population numbers there are nothing anyone could be concerned about. Population on Star Forge is still very good.

Edited June 27, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[DWho]

I think this analogy, to the extent it even works, over-complicates and obscures the point. If you wanted to diagnose pneumonia, you would, of course (by your own statements), use x-ray. To be a bit more precise, you wouldn't argue that x-ray changes were irrelevant or "not representative." Remember, what's being tracked here is not any absolute number, i.e. a "snapshot" in time (i.e. an isolated x-ray in time using the analogy), but the change in the number over time, holding as many other variables constant as possible (i.e. the x-ray progression over time, using this "analogy").

 

To continue the analysis, the fact that you would or could also use other data points is nice and interesting, but beside the point. You wouldn't argue that changes on x-ray (normal --> abnormal or abnormal --> normal) aren't "representative" of the pneumonia state (improving, failing, non-responding). And the fact that there are outliers, other usable data points, peculiar situations, etc. is not also relevant to the question of whether or not (per this analogy), changes on x-ray are "representative" of the diagnosis, progression, etc. of pneumonia.

 

The fact that you could diagnose and treat entirely without x-ray doesn't strengthen the rebuttal either. There is a gold-standard way to know what the server's game population is - and that's the hard numbers from the devs (I imagine there is one for pneumonia too, such as looking directly into the lungs). Seeing as we will never get those, changes in the fleet population is, always has been, and always will be* a useful proxy for in- game population at any given time.(*see "counters" below).

 

I might as well keep going. The inescapable point being made here is that the observed decline in in-game fleet population (controlled for variables) == decline in the population of players playing the game. That's the takeaway point, that's the 800lb gorilla in the argument. Given that, I think the only way to credibly rebut this is to:

 

1. Attack the underlying observation (i.e. there is no observed decline): I haven't seen anyone making this argument, so I will ignore it for now.
   
2. Posit new, or changing variables (e.g. there are new reasons why now the fleet is less relevant to players than in the past -- in other words, "there's not observed decline, just faulty measurement"): I've seen people try to make this point, but those arguments have been pretty thin and weak. But to be consistent, that argument is at least still viable (albeit on life support) and waiting for a well-researched/reasoned advocate.
   
3. Attack the underlying assertion (i.e. the fleet never has, and can't be, a useful indicator): These are simply the worst of the arguments and, for at least the reasons above, they don't hold any water...
   

 

The question of fleet population is not whether it is a barometer but what is it a barometer of. As has been pointed out, very few people that don't have to go to the fleet go there any more (and those that do don't stay very long making them difficult to count), whether it is toxicity in chat, vendors in other areas, or just more things being coordinated through guilds. Fleet population represents a very small proportion of those playing the game. That alone does not bring its use as in indicator into question if the population of the fleet is representative of the population as a whole. That is where the link breaks down though.

 

The population of the fleet certainly appears to be skewed toward people who are either doing random group content (or more specifically only do one type of content - PVP, GF Raiding, etc) while the majority of the players currently playing the game appears to be centered around repeatable "story" content (leveling, heroics, KotXX, GC, organized flashpoints and organized raids) and occasional PVP and Raiding. These two groups have very often trended in opposite directions population wise.

 

With the heavy story KotXX expansions, RPG population grew (although it was not sustained due to a miscalculation on how fast people would burn through that content) and random grouping populations declined. Likewise with the server mergers and focus on group content, random group play was somewhat stable for a while and RPG play declined sharply, though it seems to have somewhat stabilized again (based on populations of planets beyond the capital worlds like Balmora and Tatooine). As has been stated, the populations of the mid-level planets have been a lot more stable than fleet population which puts a crack in using fleet population for a barometer of the game's population. It is definitely a barometer of the health of random group play but likely not as good a barometer of overall game population (and indirectly game health). A better barometer would include population of mid-level planets with fleet population to get a more representative sample of the game's demographics. But then that "barometer" would be an indicator of game population and not the health of random group content.

[Joonbeams]

The question of fleet population is not whether it is a barometer but what is it a barometer of. As has been pointed out, very few people that don't have to go to the fleet go there any more (and those that do don't stay very long making them difficult to count), whether it is toxicity in chat, vendors in other areas, or just more things being coordinated through guilds. Fleet population represents a very small proportion of those playing the game. That alone does not bring its use as in indicator into question if the population of the fleet is representative of the population as a whole. That is where the link breaks down though.

 

The population of the fleet certainly appears to be skewed toward people who are either doing random group content (or more specifically only do one type of content - PVP, GF Raiding, etc) while the majority of the players currently playing the game appears to be centered around repeatable "story" content (leveling, heroics, KotXX, GC, organized flashpoints and organized raids) and occasional PVP and Raiding. These two groups have very often trended in opposite directions population wise.

 

With the heavy story KotXX expansions, RPG population grew (although it was not sustained due to a miscalculation on how fast people would burn through that content) and random grouping populations declined. Likewise with the server mergers and focus on group content, random group play was somewhat stable for a while and RPG play declined sharply, though it seems to have somewhat stabilized again (based on populations of planets beyond the capital worlds like Balmora and Tatooine). As has been stated, the populations of the mid-level planets have been a lot more stable than fleet population which puts a crack in using fleet population for a barometer of the game's population. It is definitely a barometer of the health of random group play but likely not as good a barometer of overall game population (and indirectly game health). A better barometer would include population of mid-level planets with fleet population to get a more representative sample of the game's demographics. But then that "barometer" would be an indicator of game population and not the health of random group content.

 

So yes, you're making the "variables have changed" argument and arguing that since a number of gameplay issues have changed, the fleet "barometer" is not longer a good one for estimating in-game player numbers (point #2 in my original post). It's a boring one, to be sure.

 

As I've stated, I haven't seen super compelling arguments that these things you mention (most of which have been around for years) should lead us to now, suddenly, doubt the value of fleet numbers -- some of the declines people are describing in numbers are only a few weeks/months old. And, to be clear, I'm taking the (relatively strong) position that fleet numbers were, at least throughout most of the history of the game, a good proxy for the in-game player numbers at any given time. I'm willing to say I'm "scientifically" agnostic about whether this is still true, though my hunches tell me it very much is.

 

But in any event, sure, I guess I'm willing to leave this argument "alive" for now, though I'm still waiting on someone to take it and run with some empirical or anecdotal evidence that these new declines (to the extent they are real - something I'm accepting without verifying myself for the sake of argument) are related to some recent game changes that coincide with the alleged declines that point instead to players shifting off fleet...

[phalczen]

So yes, you're making the "variables have changed" argument and arguing that since a number of gameplay issues have changed, the fleet "barometer" is not longer a good one for estimating in-game player numbers (point #2 in my original post). It's a boring one, to be sure.

 

I doubt anyone has empirical evidence proving there is a new variable that serves as an adequate surrogate, for the same reason(s) that we lack evidence of the "gold standard" (a term you correctly used in your reply to my analogy, FWIW.) I don't have a work schedule or family schedule that would permit me to log onto SS every night from the same time range for, say, 30 consecutive nights, and count how many of "_____" group activity pops I get in that time frame. Even if I did, there are multiple confounding variables that, unlike in a research study, we cannot control for:

1. Are the World Cup matches playing?
   
2. Is there a new patch with content diverting players away from what I am studying?
   
3. is the CXP bonus activity diverting people away from what I am studying?
   
4. Is it a weekend? During school months? Could there be a disproportionate # of people that happened to go on summer vacation that week (say, 4th of July)?
   
5. Is it the beginning or end of conquest? Is there a conquest objective that would affect participation in the activity I have chosen to study?
   
6. Perhaps an overlapping in-game event is ending (e.g. June 30th when NS nightlife event ends and people are busy spending their coins)?
   

There are definitely things that affect the need for people to congregate on the fleet. Since Activity Finder now grants the applicable weekly for most pve content, and you can get the ground pvp dailies and weeklies from inside warzones, there are fewer reasons. One that springs to mind as still relevant would be world bosses. Just this morning at 9 am I was part of a pug that took down the Revanite Walker. The second is one near and dear to my heart, and that's the GSF daily and weekly. Of course, you can only redeem UCs and tokens on the fleet, but even that is less frequent since there is a % of end game gear you'll get from command crates bypassing the need to shop on the fleet. There are others to be sure, but there's no way to get the kind of empirical evidence you're talking about. Even me collecting the data over 30 nights isn't enough observations to minimize the impact of the other variables. We'd need tens of thousands of data points … something we're obviously not capable of collecting without a massive community effort complete with verification, but something BW probably is collecting right now.

 

I don't actually disagree with any of the posters saying that the fleet population is lower. I agree that it is. My observation is that SS prime time was more often 2 instances of fleet right after the merges, compared to more recent weeks. I don't know why that is though, because there are lots of potential reasons, not just "game iz ded." Its important to consider, and its a variable we can measure, but I disagree with the notion that it is representative, that it is a good surrogate, or that it is a good marker. Just because its the only variable we can readily measure doesn't make it the best indicator. Your reply to me actually demonstrates exactly why Fleet Pop is a poor surrogate. Its not only incorrect to call it "representative," there are scenarios that can directly contradict the hypothesis that low fleet pop means not many people are playing the game. Perhaps my analogy wasn't the best, but that's more because I have ways to measure many of the variables I need to make a diagnosis, whereas we players are purposefully insulated/restricted from obtaining/measuring the variables we would need to make a complete picture of game health.

 

TL, DR: I'm not disagreeing just to be contrarian, but rather because I think there are compelling arguments to doubt the ability to confidently conclude, "The health of the game is poor because fleet populations are trending down."

 

FWIW, there is a variable, or set of variables that hasn't been mentioned that I do think is relevant, and arguably more important than fleet pop. I'm actually more concerned about the lack of people submitting/writing guides for Dulfy's web site. Web sites and players come and go, but we've lost of lot of guide writers in the past 12 months. By itself, it isn't enough to make the diagnosis, but if we combine with other variables, our diagnostic accuracy improves. I think discussing all those variables and how we could objectively measure them is a worthwhile forum discussion.

 

[Slowpokeking]

I usually avoid the fleet because I hate those troll messages, but the fleet number does show the decline of players in a degree.

[JattaGin]

I've read a lot of posts lately with some confused people that don't seem to understand the correlation between fleet numbers and server numbers. They are directly correlated. Yes, a lot of people are in strongholds, or on planets, etc., etc...but that has been the case for the past several years. (...)

 

I agree with the OP.

 

The only "accuracy" for using fleet is that it you can track it over time, as the argument has been made, but there is, at the end of the day, no true accurate way to account player volume.

 

Tracking over time is indeed the point here. Through the years I have always checked the fleet population when things started to seem off or even bad. For example when I noticed warzone pop times increasing noticeably. There has ALWAYS been a correlation.

 

The situation on Darth Malgus is NOW that when I check the fleet numbers in the evenings, it's the same numbers we had on The Progenitor one year ago. BUT we got merged with Tomb of Freedon Nadd AND The Red Eclipse. TRE had a much bigger population than TP and it showed right after the merger when there were always 2, sometimes even 3 instances of the rep fleet. And now there is a 2-number-digit again. Just like on TP alone.

 

I also see it on the GTN. My competitors are mostly the same as before the merger, thus Progenitor sellers. Where are the TRE-sellers who had been dominating the market a few months ago and dropped the prices to the bottom? Prices (at least in "my" categories) are back to pre-merger levels. Much to my joy, I admit that. But regarding the big picture, that's not good.

 

On Saturday I played 4 hours during the afternoon on my smuggler. I logged in, grabbed the gathering node in the stronghold, queued for GSF and did some conquest stuff. When the 4-hour-cooldown of the node expired, I still had NO pop for GSF. 4 hours on a Saturday and not one GSF game? That can't be right.

 

To sum it up:

 

Before the merger on Progenitor: some 90 players on rep fleet

 

After the merger on Malgus: some 200 players on rep fleet

 

Summer 2018 on Malgus: some 90 players on rep fleet

 

Since I haven't noticed any other area in the game where all those numbers could hide and the pop rate for group activities is as low as it has been before the merge, I have strong arguments that the fleet numbers correlate with the actual numbers of players.

 

However, maybe it is a Darth Malgus issue only. I read in this thread that the situation seems better on US servers. Or at least one of them. How many servers got merged into this prospering one? I don't know. But I know that Malgus seems to have lost the population of 2 of the 3 previous servers. Numbers and happenings throughout the game indicate that.

 

One last indicator since I'm there almost daily for 10-15 minutes (since 2014?): Ziost. Before the merge: 1-3 players on rep side. After the merge: 15-20 players on rep side. Now: 2-4 players on rep side. It's just one example, I know. But it fits to the rest.

 

Your trying way too hard to prosecute your personal narrative in the forum.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! You're really something. Just curious: Are you really not getting the irony?

 

It's a conspiracy I tell you, they're all in on it.

 

Is the game flourishing and well in your opinion? Compared to e. g. 2016 or even Spring 2017?

 

If there were 5 people on the fleet, but you were solo-queued for unranked warzones, and you got pop-after-pop-after-pop without seeing the same players in the back-to-back matches, would you still draw the same conclusions?

 

Do you get "pop-after-pop-after-pop without seeing the same players in the back-to-back matches"? I haven't for years. And if there are no such pops, why discuss this theoretical construct?

 

I've played this game since beta...Fleet has ALWAYS represented the health of the server. You're right...one sampling isn't enough to draw any conclusions over...but Fleet absolutely is a barometer of health. It always has been, always will be. Deny it if you like, but sadly it's true.

 

I agree.

[Mournblood]

I don't completely agree with the OP's assessment. My guild mates and I are typically hanging out on our flagship. I only travel to the fleet when I have specific business there, and once I'm done, I return to either my flagship or one of my SHs.

 

The reason I don't "hang out" on the fleet is because a lot of the toxic trolling that occurs in General chat there (I disabled General chat on all my toons) often migrates into /say. My daughter likes to sit on my lap to watch me play, and I simply don't want her reading half the crap that scrolls by my chat window while I'm on fleet.

 

This is clearly a very specific reason why I don't fit the OP's demographic for fleet population, but I wanted to offer it as just one example why fleet population is not necessarily indicative of overall server population and game health.

[Jdast]

As soon as this completely esoteric methodological debate is resolved and a 'winner' is declared, I humbly ask that the winning side submit and send the data metrics and analysis to Keith and Co. at BW Austin. I'm sure they will find it useful in determining the direction and release date of 6.0.

 

Forever yours,

 

Dasty

Edited June 27, 2018 by Jdast

[DarthWoad]

Your trying way too hard to prosecute your personal narrative in the forum.

 

A pointless comment to make, somewhat bait like, but continue...

 

For some people.. I'm sure Fleet is the social hub. For more and more players though... Fleet has no real value to them... you know.. people who actually have friends and are in an active guild.. doing things with friends and guild mates....rather then chat spamming and pushing all manner of anti-social narratives. Yes... I said it... if anything Fleet is the anti-social hub of the game these days.

 

Do you have any evidence to back up your claims? The fleet holds resources in game that is all in one place, it is the only place you can get to unlock your gear, it has GTN terminals conveniently placed there. So to claim that it has "no real value" is ridiculous, because the fleet has a lot of value in terms of the game mechanics and gives resources required to play the game how it was intended to play.

 

Yes you can chill on your starship or flagship, but for most people the fleet is the social hub to look for groups and things to do with other players. I think you are calling it the anti social hub just for the sake of having a debate with someone even though you are entirely wrong.

 

You can ignore the long running toxic profile the Fleet represents to many players if you like.. and insist it is the Facebook of the game.... but that does not make you right... nor will a lot of people agree with you. Of course I consider Facebook to be the anti-social hub of the internet... with twitter running a close second.

 

Yes, we get it, you don't like other players (looking at your posting history I can tell this), you don't like MMOs, you think all other players are toxic.

 

You are entirely wrong saying that "not a lot of people agree with you", because in fact the opposite is true. Most people will agree with him - because he is right. And you are wrong

 

OIC.... you led your girlfriend to a dry watering hole for "random queues" for "midbies" and you let her down. In case you have not been following Trixxies various state of PvP threads..... lowbie/midbie simply is not a thing for most players now days.. so it would not matter if there were 10 instances of Fleet. Why were you not both out playing the game while in queue rather than camping Fleet?

 

I don't see what you're trying to do here. All you're doing is starting arguments for the sake of starting arguments. :):):rolleyes:

 

That being said, I 100% agree with you OP.

Edited June 27, 2018 by DarthWoad

[TUXs]

A pointless comment to make, somewhat bait like, but continue...

 

Do you have any evidence to back up your claims? The fleet holds resources in game that is all in one place, it is the only place you can get to unlock your gear, it has GTN terminals conveniently placed there. So to claim that it has "no real value" is ridiculous, because the fleet has a lot of value in terms of the game mechanics and gives resources required to play the game how it was intended to play.

 

Yes you can chill on your starship or flagship, but for most people the fleet is the social hub to look for groups and things to do with other players. I think you are calling it the anti social hub just for the sake of having a debate with someone even though you are entirely wrong.

 

Yes, we get it, you don't like other players (looking at your posting history I can tell this), you don't like MMOs, you think all other players are toxic.

 

You are entirely wrong saying that "not a lot of people agree with you", because in fact the opposite is true. Most people will agree with him - because he is right. And you are wrong

 

I don't see what you're trying to do here. All you're doing is starting arguments for the sake of starting arguments. :):):rolleyes:

 

That being said, I 100% agree with you OP.

Very good reply DW...EXCELLENT point about Fleet too.

[LordTurin]

Pretending fleet population isn't a good representative of the game's population as a whole is pretty silly. Likewise, ignoring that there are plenty of other places that people can be instead of on fleet when they are hanging out is also silly.

 

Yes, there are plenty of people off doing other thing instead of being on fleet. They are hanging out on guildships, on Odessan, or doing heroics and the like. However, none of those things are new in the last 6 months or so since the server mergers, and right after that, there were typically hundreds of people on fleet during prime times (at least on SF). Right after those things came out, a dip in fleet numbers would certainly be expected, but with less people on fleet now then 6 months ago, it either shows a dip in population, or a change in player behavior (which would be weird since nothing has come out in the last 6 months that would change hang out locations for people).

 

That being said, DM seems to be the one people are most worried about. Given that is the European server, and the World Cup is currently on during prime time, and that's apparently a big thing in Europe, I would actually be very surprised if we didn't see a dip. There is no corresponding dip in the US servers because A. Soccer (football) is just not a big a thing here (I have to actively search out scores to find out how the matches went, instead of it being top news on things like Google News or other news aggregators) and B. The US choked hard and didn't even make it to the World Cup, so even those tangentially interested in Soccer (football) like myself aren't changing our behavior at all (but if the US was in the World Cup, I would definitely be watching that instead of playing SWTOR).

 

If the world cup ends and there is no rise in population, then people should worry. But not while literally the most watched sporting event in the world is going on.

 

Note, in 2010 and 2014 an average of 3.2 billion people watched the World Cup. So literally half the world's population is doing that instead of whatever other leisure time activity they did (or work, apparently a lot of places in Europe close for World Cup matches). So yeah, a population decline right now should just not be a concern.

[RobertFKennedyUS]

If I could write a title to my post it would be: Fleet is a Sheet Hole.

 

Fleet has its uses for pugging the daily ops, but socially it's just a bunch of idiots usually trying to be offensive.

 

I don't really see what the point of this thread is too much - the point is not clear.

 

I would just say join some guilds and go to fleet to pug the daily ops, that's about it.

 

The point of this thread is actually not really relevant to that. The devs do stupid ****, like they finally merged servers, but they have to **** that up by waiting a year too late and then fooking the West Coast and Asia up the bass by moving the servers to Virginia. Always gotta be that way: fix one thing and totally fook it up in another way.

 

And they keep doing stupid sheet like having PvP and PvE stats for characters be the same, which mandates that certain disciplines be nerfed into the ground in PvE because they are overperforming in PvP. Same stupid **** until it's gotten so bad that the game is about to die - then they change....and of course fook something up to balance out the improvement.

Edited June 27, 2018 by RobertFKennedyUS

[Sinhammer]

Your trying way too hard to prosecute your personal narrative in the forum.

 

For some people.. I'm sure Fleet is the social hub. For more and more players though... Fleet has no real value to them... you know.. people who actually have friends and are in an active guild.. doing things with friends and guild mates....rather then chat spamming and pushing all manner of anti-social narratives. Yes... I said it... if anything Fleet is the anti-social hub of the game these days.

 

 

^^This. I know of many, many players who don't even have Gen chat checked because of how absolutely idiotic it is. What is even left on Fleet at this point? Star Forge saw a huge decline in Fleet RP over a period of months. Used to be random little dance groups hanging out at the central hub, but don't see them too often anymore. The only CONSTANT is the trolls and the few anti-trolls (really just a sub-species of troll, but, meh). Most of the real social gatherings happen well away from Fleet and any Gen chat in general.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Two points regarding the subject:

 

1 -Fleet has always been the social hub of the game. It's the only place you can go to interact with other players freely.

 

What are ya goin, talk about the new movies while in the middle of a boss Fight? While running orbs in the WZ? While fighting the bonus boss in the FP? While you are doing a roll maneuver in GSF? If you have game questions, are new, are looking to join a group for an Operation, putting your crafted crap up for sale on the GtN and my personal favorite, it also happens to be the only place you can go to buy BIS gear with UCs you earned of the token drop you won in SnV.

 

There are many logical reasons to consider fleet the social hub and a one stop shop for all your 'out of character' wants/needs. Is it toxic as all hell? Sure it is, and that's why we love it.

 

Anyone who is so offended by 4 letter words that aren't even directed at them, that they must completely turn off chat while they are there, I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but that's nothing but pure weakness. If you can't handle that, do the gene pool a favor and please do not procreate and pollute further generations with that kind of weakness. I'm not talking about when it is directed at a person, I'm only referring to those who have an aversion to fleet by what other people are saying that has absolutely nothing to do with them.

 

If you think saying four letter words is 'indecent' or morally incomprehensible, by all means, try not use them yourself. Even still, you have used them before and you will use them again at some point. Everyone uses 4 letter words sometimes.

 

2 - Regarding the significance of fleet numbers as relates to the overall population in the game, some people say it does,some people say it doesn't.

 

Which one is it? Neither, both,who the hell knows, we have no idea whether or not that has significance. Unless you work for BW and have access to their data files, you have no idea, right along side everyone else who has no idea.

 

It's fine to have an opinion and it's fine that people will disagree in their opinions of one another. That said, when it is worded as matter-of-factly as some posters have worded their opinions, saying that way is nothing short of a lie. It's also quite bad for morale. Not everyone has played the game for long, they read things and they assume that what those other people are saying 'matter-of-factly' is the case than they start saying it. Than people start thinking the game is ending soon, so why bother getting involved in the game too much at that point.

Self-fulfilling prophecies suck.

 

If you can't put evidence to a claim, you have no claim, you have an opinion.

 

P.S. - Am I the only one that thinks Kylo Ren is a fruitcake?

See you out there guys!

Edited June 28, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Jdast]

Way,

 

You are conflating idiocy with toxicity. I am not remotely averse to swear words, but I have a very low threshold for pointless, preening, prattle. I turn off general chat not because I'm weak, but because I'm frankly not interested in what the vast, vast majority of people say there. It's the same reason I don't go to college bars any more. Sure, it's possible I might have an interesting conversation, but I know I am far more likely to do so elsewhere at a bar where 21 year-olds aren't ordering Choclotinis (which are an abomination to martinis, akin to putting pineapple on pizza).

 

Your points about one stop shop apply only to PuG Ops groups and the less than one minute it takes to buy whatever upgrade you need. Absolutely every other function can be performed elsewhere. More broadly, I find the best way to get to know people in-game is through group finder, because I observe their social interaction in a FP, WZ, etc. more relevant than what they think about the new Han Solo movie.

 

A bit of stylistic advice too, however unsolicited -- saying "I don't mean to be rude" and then telling people they are too weak to procreate and should not contribute to the gene pool -- in my opinion -- is rude.

 

It's almost like your post was written by two different people. I thought your second point was completely on target and brilliant. Of course, I'm afforded that luxury since I made the same point earlier in this thread. I would amplify on what you said...

 

I think part of the issue is that these threads have a lot of Captain Hindsight Heroics going on. Far be it from me to stop people pointlessly pontificating about the methodology for calculating precise server populations, which is inherently non-falsifiable on our end. But if I were Keith, I would read this thread and have two reactions:

 

1) Our forum denizens can debate population numbers until they look like Aristocra Saganu, but we actually have real-time precise data; and 2) Yes, numbers are down for a variety of reasons, but the most obvious reason is slow pace of new content and grousing about server numbers ain't gonna make it happen any faster.

 

Not directed at any one individual per se (particularly you), but there does seem to be a segment of this population that is hell-bent on repeatedly beating 5.0 into a bloody pulp and crowing about how right they were. Personally, absent the changes in 5.6, I would have left. But I know the general direction the game is headed. Not much more I can do at this point.

 

Dasty

Edited June 28, 2018 by Jdast

[Blakinik]

I avoid fleet if I can. I think the toxicity of it is beyond stupid for gen chat. Let it be whose genitals are bigger than the other to an urinating contest to politics, I rather just avoid it all together and use whatever shortcuts I can to not go to fleet.

 

However, there are times where you need to go to fleet for whatever reason (normally turning in missions). In those cases it tends to be get in and get out.

 

So is it the center of my social hub? Far from it. If I needed to name mine it's probably one of the stronghold worlds like Nar Shadda. I know I am not alone. I get it that SWTOR 'wants' it to be the hub of their faction, but there are a very large number of people that avoid fleet like the plague. Most times if I am there, I switch to something like guild chat to avoid the BS.

 

As for the argument of using it as a barometer for player activity, the only ones that will know this is EA Bioware and up to them to share the results if they wanted too. I personally wouldn't hold my breath for these stats.

[Sinhammer]

I always have to assume when I see people defend Fleet chat with the argument of "well if you can't handle adult chat" or "if you can't handle 4-letter words" they must be some of our massive trolls we have in game. There is a far cry from "adult chat" or "4-letter words" and the garbage that goes on in Gen chat on Fleet and the baby worlds. Unfortunately that's a staple of most MMOs, not just this game, and will never change as long as GMs ignore chat.

[IoNonSoEVero]

I always have to assume when I see people defend Fleet chat with the argument of "well if you can't handle adult chat" or "if you can't handle 4-letter words" they must be some of our massive trolls we have in game. There is a far cry from "adult chat" or "4-letter words" and the garbage that goes on in Gen chat on Fleet and the baby worlds. Unfortunately that's a staple of most MMOs, not just this game, and will never change as long as GMs ignore chat.

 

ITA with this. Nobody's clutching their pearls about four-letter words and anyone that claims such is minimizing to the extreme. It's pretty reasonable not to want to have to listen to a steady stream of political bile, racist and homophobic remarks or get hit up for ERP as one's just trying to play a game. Nobody owes anyone in gen chat an audience.

[denavin]

Fleet is a toxic cesspool of insults, spam, childishness and vulgarity...

 

Why would anybody want to hang around that environment. I only go to fleet if I need something that can only be got there. Otherwise I avoid Fleet like the plague...

There is nothing of value there (including the people) and as for a social hub?

A garbage cane has more social attraction than fleet.

[BarbarikDave]

There are only two certainties, everyone plays the game their own way and the only people capable of having an actual idea or accurate representation of the population are the devs. Everything else is pure speculation. I fail to see any point to this thread other than to start an argument for the sake of arguing over something none of us have any control over, especially when there have been so many similar threads with these same arguments already argued.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Way,

 

You are conflating idiocy with toxicity. I am not remotely averse to swear words, but I have a very low threshold for pointless, preening, prattle. I turn off general chat not because I'm weak, but because I'm frankly not interested in what the vast, vast majority of people say there. It's the same reason I don't go to college bars any more. Sure, it's possible I might have an interesting conversation, but I know I am far more likely to do so elsewhere at a bar where 21 year-olds aren't ordering Choclotinis (which are an abomination to martinis, akin to putting pineapple on pizza).

 

Your points about one stop shop apply only to PuG Ops groups and the less than one minute it takes to buy whatever upgrade you need. Absolutely every other function can be performed elsewhere. More broadly, I find the best way to get to know people in-game is through group finder, because I observe their social interaction in a FP, WZ, etc. more relevant than what they think about the new Han Solo movie.

 

A bit of stylistic advice too, however unsolicited -- saying "I don't mean to be rude" and then telling people they are too weak to procreate and should not contribute to the gene pool -- in my opinion -- is rude.

 

It's almost like your post was written by two different people. I thought your second point was completely on target and brilliant. Of course, I'm afforded that luxury since I made the same point earlier in this thread. I would amplify on what you said...

 

I think part of the issue is that these threads have a lot of Captain Hindsight Heroics going on. Far be it from me to stop people pointlessly pontificating about the methodology for calculating precise server populations, which is inherently non-falsifiable on our end. But if I were Keith, I would read this thread and have two reactions:

 

1) Our forum denizens can debate population numbers until they look like Aristocra Saganu, but we actually have real-time precise data; and 2) Yes, numbers are down for a variety of reasons, but the most obvious reason is slow pace of new content and grousing about server numbers ain't gonna make it happen any faster.

 

Not directed at any one individual per se (particularly you), but there does seem to a segment of this population that is hell-bent on repeatedly beating 5.0 into a bloody pulp and crowing about how right they were. Personally, absent the changes in 5.6, I would have left. But I know the general direction the game is headed. Not much more I can do at this point.

 

Dasty

 

You make some good points. Far as being rude, I meant what I said that "I don't mean to seem rude", that wasn't a platitude. Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade. As I said, everyone is entitled to an opinion, I am just personally rather disgusted by all the the flagrant claims made on any number of subjects on the forums and no one ever wants to offer a shred of evidence to their 'matter-of-factly" stated crap.

 

You may have noticed that I did not offer my opinion on whether or not fleet numbers are reflective of population in the game, and there is good reason for that, that I didn't. I don't have any proof to back up a thing on that subject, and while opinions are free to hold, if you can't back up a claim, than you should state that it is an opinion, not a fact.

 

These kinds of doom and gloom BS threads, they serve no purpose, the only thing they do is undermind morale and that is bad for the game, and so doom and gloom threads lack respect for everyone else playing the game by making the game look to be in a worser state than it is and can only make things worse.

 

Name one other place that you can go in this game and speak to 100's of people all at the same time? Sure, if you have guildship and to have fleet enabled you can from there, but that's a technicality. You are still interacting with people on fleet. There is no planet, no operation, no WZ, no FP, guild ship, no SH, no uprising, no heroic where you can speak to even half that number of people at the same time. Whether or not you like the kind of banta that goes on on fleet, that's a personal perspective, if you hate that's fine if you love it that's fine too.

 

"Social" means dealing with other people. it does not mean, crafting crap, buying crap, selling crap, quecing for things, upgrading gear, or any other facility branch that is offered on fleet. Therefore, none of the those things even matter in the sense that it is non the less the social hub. Whereever the most people hang out at the same time in the largest numbers, that's that's the social hub. You can't speak to 1/4th the amount of people at the same time as you can on fleet anywhere else in the game. No ones saying one must hang out there, no is saying you have to make friends there, no one is saying anything other than it is the social hub of the game, All that requires is where the most people congregate.

 

Even still, whether or not the numbers on fleet are directly related to the game population is not something any one of us knows for sure, which was the entirety of my point.

 

That you noted a difference in one point from the other [one you agreed with me, the other you totally didn't], I'm not sure who you find that so off setting, they were two separate topics. This isn't the first thread or the 9th one that has talked about how bad fleet is and how disgusting people speak. I would take how it is here, over how it is in a game like LOTRO where you get banned from playing the game for days even weeks at a time as a form of punishment for breaking TOS in world chat. Maybe you are okay with that ideology, I most certainly am not. Every few weeks someone floats the idea of have tos enforced on fleet. I don't want that. I am not a puritan, I like my 4 letter words, I like ****, I like women, I like fighting, I like being able to call someone an A-O when they deserve it. If TOS rules like that were established on fleet, and I'm not being melodramatic here, it would be the end of the game. Far to late for any of that. That's why my wording was so strong, because it's a dead horse already and would be bad for the game.

 

I take no pleasure in saying that I too agree that 5.x was an unmitigated disaster, It is deserving of ridicule for a number of reasons. That you don't feel that way yourself is of course your right, if you loved it, I'm happy for you, at least not everyone felt so poorly about the meta and enjoyed it.

 

Lastly, you said you have data that shows the correlation between numbers on fleet and population on the server. If you would share that information, I'd be happy to read it and if it proved to be correct, I will eat my hat and say you were right and I was wrong. People are wrong sometimes, and I probably more than most heh As things stand now, I don't know that to be a fact, you say the info will prove it, okay fine, I'm cool with that, but you have to share that information that proves it than because absenting that, it's just words someone is typing on the screen.

 

I love this game, I am not leaving this game, I want the game to prosper and go on and grow for as long as it can. I am here til the lights go out, no matter how bad the situation may be. I'm a Star Wars fan and I will be til I'm dead.

 

I apologize for my crass choice of words in making a point in my initial posting. If I offended anyone unduly, my bad.

[Tsillah]

You're trying way too hard to proselyte your personal narrative in the forum.

Fixed that for you and...

 

Pot and kettle.

 

And no, I'm not back. I just used TUX's referral to reply to this bizarre post of yours (I do from time to time check where what people are talking about). I really would urge you to look up the word prosecute, because it's not such an unusual word and the fact that you do not know what it means should be embarrassing to you really. Surely he's not prosecuting himself or his views. If anyone is doing that in a less literal sense it would be you doing that.

 

Since I'm here I might as well use the opportunity, much to your dismay I'm sure, to comment on the topic.

 

As much as the fleet is not the indicator of how populated servers are, changes in fleet population are. If it's true that there are single fleet instances in the evening times in the US and EU time zones for their respective servers, that does indicate servers are down in population. No content has been added recently that would explain it otherwise.

 

Now that doesn't mean the game is getting the plug pulled anytime soon or that it's in maintenance mode. That is not my point and never really has been. I suspect that this game can stay alive for years still on a small core of players that still spends enough in the cartel market.

 

As for the OP, your points are valid but your expectations are off. I understand that because you pay a sub for a game with the name Star Wars on it, that still charges a lot of money for cosmetics and housing decorations but the truth is that this game doesn't have the population that offers what you want it to. Clearly it's been asked for years now to have cross faction queues and for warzones this will be a reality soon. The only reason why BioWare would do that in a time where their resources are extremely limited is because they feel they have no choice and that it therefore is more important than new content.

 

My advice to you is to get your girlfriend a master datacron. The only reason why midbie PvP is dead is because they pulled any rewards of any significance away from it. They could put rewards back in but have chosen not to. Add to that the fact that they more or less forced raiders into grouped ranked for materials for augments and the picture is very clear: the game doesn't have the population needed to support below 70 PvP. They need everyone who possible can to join the level 70 queues or they won't pop. There is not other plausible explanation for this move to change warzones to cross faction now when before they refused to.

 

With the PvP Stronghold they can achieve a few things also. It can get more of the PvE crowd interested in PvP and they can finally monetize PvP albeit indirectly. People may see that as negative but the endgame for SWTOR is simply keeping the game alive and frankly it requires CM purchases at this point just to have the game survive. That's why there are weekly sales and direct sales have started to get more people to buy stuff. I imagine all the free CC from referrals have been working against them at least in part.

 

Really it doesn't matter if you see what they do as positive or negative. They are trying to keep the ship afloat and they need your money to do it. That's a simple reality. The only alternative they have is to give up and shut it all down.

 

What you need to do is figure out for yourself how dear SWTOR is to you and your girlfriend. Personally I can't play it anymore because it's so dumbed down and the reward systems and in particular GC do not reward challenging content appropriately. That's me.

 

Andryah, well she's the staunchest white knight you'll find here still and if rumours are to be believed she actually worked for BioWare in the past. She sometimes says meaningful things and often doesn't in my view. This thread is a clear example where she is not being reasonable. It's called confirmation bias.

 

I hope for those who play that SWTOR still exists for many years, but you need to set expectations realistically for what you'll get. You do have to pay more for less in this game, but that might be worth it to you. You need a sub to access endgame which is mostly content that's years old. Except the new operation of course, but everything else is like 3 years old. Objectively that's not worth the money, but subjectively it could be.

 

But this game doesn't have the population left to allow people to hang out in different places. They need to be corralled in the same places and that is exactly what's happening with PvP and has already happened with operations in the GF for example. Ranked PvP already had it done also with the augment mats being available there primarily. You may hate that but I believe that it's probably the only thing BioWare can do to keep the game alive for those who still pay for this game. That's why I also believe that they made the change of making endgame sub based only, because the F2P no longer contribute to the game enough to cater to them.

 

Now some may cry that it's opinion and I can't prove it. And that's true. I cannot prove anything. But my explanations are sensible considering what's been going on and I haven't seen a more plausible alternative explanation for everything that's been happening in the last couple of years.

 

Hate it or love it, it really just is what it is. If you want to play SWTOR you need to accept it for what it is and not what it could be. That ship sailed already after 3.0 somewhere. I simply got to the point where I could no longer play it for what it was and I squarely put that on making the game overall too easy and Galactic Command which is still a mess of a system. It's dead easy to get BiS gear but it's completely and unnecessarily convoluted and rewards easy content over hard content. Those are my main reasons.

 

But really, people bringing up "it's summer" is such an old excuse and that's what people said when we had many more servers and the fleet instances went down from 4 to 3. Just accept that the population is just very small but that BioWare is doing their best to make changes so that the game is still ok to play for such small populations. Cross faction warzones is the nearest upcoming example of that. It tells me they are committed to keeping the game alive for as long as possible, but that doesn't mean the populations on the remaining servers are healthy. Unless some miracle happens that will never be the case again and that's why BioWare are doing everything they can to adapt the game for a smaller population.

 

OP, I get your frustration, but it's never going to get better. This is as good as it gets and it's worse than it was. But if your GF really wants to PvP just buy the master datacron for her. Insta 70 and she can PvP and do all the story content while level synced. It's the best thing to do under the circumstances.

 

PS: For those who are not happy to see me... no, I haven't reinstalled the game and really don't want to play SWTOR but I do like discussing the game occasionally since I played it for 6 years. If that's not good enough then simply ignore my comment or block me. I'm just here on a referal so that won't last.

[Eshvara]

 

PS: For those who are not happy to see me... no, I haven't reinstalled the game and really don't want to play SWTOR but I do like discussing the game occasionally since I played it for 6 years. If that's not good enough then simply ignore my comment or block me. I'm just here on a referal so that won't last.

 

Welcome back! Yey for more Dutch people around here! :rak_03:

Edited June 28, 2018 by Eshvara