Planned Warzone Changes Part 2

[PennyAnn]

Making movement abilities drop the ball is a bad idea, since there are still plenty of people who don't realize that stealth, force camo, sorc bubble, and phase walk make you drop it. Adding more to the list will just make even more people accidently drop the ball. Plus it's basically the same thing as hinder, just less obvious and more confusing.

 

While I hear you and don't disagree that at first it will indeed cause more people to drop the ball, the quickest way to learn to adjust to these changes is to encounter them. It only makes sense to me that if you lose the ball when you use stealth or phase walk because it's too big an advantage to solo scoring and avoiding opponents, then the same situation applied to movement abilities that put you too far out of harm's way (like operative rolls or other things) would be considered in exactly the same way.

 

We got used to stealth, force camo, sorc bubble and phase walk making us drop the ball, I think we'll get used to this also and it solves a problem without nerfs or adding game mechanics to hinder their use entirely. Now it's about making a choice to advance your game play in that situation, and I like choice much better than forced mechanics that Bioware builds in.

 

.

[Sith-Viscera]

The wink says it all........

[Krazhez]

I'm against hinder, and iffy about how arenas pop. It'd be nice to be able to do arenas as practice without having to hope there aren't a lot of people in queue.

Everything else looks good to me, but to those worried about roll:

Maybe they could make the distance of roll shorter while holding the ball, and not just roll, all movement abilities. I don't think removing the ability to roll lets people play to the strengths of the classes. Force speed can get you the same distances. 'Well, what about the cutting over gaps?', making the roll distance shorter could solve that. Granted we do have slows and nets that effect roll already.

Maybe make the cds longer while holding the ball? Or the heal debuff suggestion?

 

My biggest concern about roll was just how buggy it gets on ramps, (mostly in quesh) not being able to target people after a roll.

[Elusive_Thing]

So many people being delusional about how good Operatives are in Huttball. With desync roll is better than it would be otherwise, but it's still far from counterable. Maybe don't whitebar in no man's land, waste CC during rolls and so and and instead use roots and stuns to kill them in the fire pits.

 

How about the ball that spawns can randomly be of two types: one type is how it works now, and the other type is one that applies Hinder. The "Hinderball" will take different strategy to get to the endzone compared to the ordinary ball. Classes that have a big advantage with the ordinary ball will have to act as support when it's a Hinderball.

No. Objective RNG is a bad idea, it's the main reason why Odessen is a terrible map.

[Neoforcer]

Now it's about making a choice to advance your game play in that situation, and I like choice much better than forced mechanics that Bioware builds in.

 

.

 

 

we call that passing the ball LOL OMG we had to pass the ball

[Elusive_Thing]

The reason there only 1 to 2 people trying to stop the ball carrier rolling in 28 sec score is every one given up trying to stop them why is that Huh? But Welcome to my ignore list Bye Bye

If the enemy team played like the people in the video you linked, I could probably score in 15 seconds as a Marauder. Great evidence you provided there, and contemporary as well.

[JamaicanCastle]

• We will no longer apply Hinder to the ball carrier.
  
• Ball carriers will once again move at 67% move speed (down from 80%)
  

 

So we're staying with the current system of 90% of ball carriers being snipers and sorcs, because they have vastly better mobility? I guess I'll just keep not playing Huttball then.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Whoa calm down. Yeah i'm not a customer. And a couple of hinder-supporters too. We are the minority but you are the majority. Git Gud

 

I have no idea what you just said.

 

P.S.- Please don't say Git Gud. Ever. That's what wanna be's say.

Edited June 7, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

People have given up do to movement abilities they just death match now because even with 45s timer it does nothing to fix that issue. Imagine Football the other team being able to just leap to the Wide receiver able to make the quarterback pulled rolled, override, his way to the Wide receiver that makes for fair play. Yes all the movement abilities are op ops being the worst. That what were saying Moment abilities need to be dealt with to bring huttball back to team play.

 

If you could kill people in Football, I'd be a Football fan.

[Neoforcer]

If the enemy team played like the people in the video you linked, I could probably score in 15 seconds as a Marauder. Great evidence you provided there, and contemporary as well.

 

The video is just showing the problem it not a trail there bud.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

You guys keep going and going with the #nerfoperatives bandwagon. Do I need to start going line by line how to stop what you are describing?

 

What about slingers snipers? they can roll thru fire too. What about guardian/juggs? they can bladeblitz thru fire. What about sages pulling? What about PT's and SINs fire-pulling?

 

Seriously, you guys are starting to sound incredibly ridiculous.

 

It's Snipers and Mercs, that's it. It's been that way since 5.0 dropped.

 

Operatives have some areas of play where they are incredible strong and their mobility and ability to escape and stealth and heals all with an incredible CC package are bound to piss people off. That doesn't mean they are Op persay. As far as I am concerned, the only thing about them that I would re-examine is stabby stabby.

 

They're really good in PVP in a good players hands and yeah, maybe they can cheese some things, but I'm not losing any sleep over them because they're hard to stop scoring touchdowns heh. People who care about winning Huttball or really like that map I can see their frustration, some one who can stand in the enemies goal area invisible, yeah thats an advantage, but to be perfectly honest, it's perfectly reasonable that invisibility would be an advantage there heh. You can't give a class perma stealth and than get pissed that they use it to their advantage.

 

If it's an issue than re-examine perma-stealth, if you're not going to re-examine perma-stealth than get use to the advantage being invisible grants and don't get pissed people are using it.

 

Operatives have the most amount 'off-role' abilties of any class.

 

Heals, Off heals, Perma-stealth, cleanse, and stealth rez. Off role abilities matter, if they don't want to take that into account in class balancing than sucks to be you if you are not Operative and you have to fight them. All things being equal, you are going to lose that fight. They're not the only ones guilty in that regard and as per the current broken class balancing strategy the use 'off role abilities' count for nothing in balancing so crap like this will happen. If they are 'offenders' in that regard there are a lot of other offenders than.

Edited June 7, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[snave]

 

That's disingenuous, Snave. There's only a couple of classes that can close the gap between the ball spawn and being within range of the top ramp within seconds with little or no chance to stop them. Obviously, once they're up there, it's very difficult to stop the score. The critical part of that scoring run is getting within range to Holotraverse or Sorc pull to that ramp. Force Speed, Hydraulic Overrides, Predation, Mad Dash, and so on, none of those offer you complete CC immunity, unlike Exfiltrate.

 

You're right. It was actually 29 pages, not 30, for some reason my browser was showing 30.

 

Classes than if they theoretically get the ball can get over the acid pit and roughly into pull range are:

 

Mara - Mad Dash

Jugg - Mad Dash

Op - Roll

Sniper - Roll

Sin - Force Speed

Sorc - Force Speed

 

Ironically the two best classes to pull up would be PT and Merc because in your hypothetical huttball - where there's a permanent sorc up top with pull off cooldown, your team getting the ball every respawn, and no one bothering to attack the sorc - All those classes would have burned their mobility cooldown getting there quickly and would have to wait to jump the fire. PT's and Mercs would be favoured here is even though hydraulics is a bit slower it lasts a lot longer and would likely still be active up to, during, and after the sorc pulled.

 

This is how you are describing operatives. They roll in to get the ball because roll gives immunity so you can't stop them (incorrect btw, most knockbacks are going through roll at the moment but let's not ruin this with facts), they then roll again which puts them into the acid pit and then they walk the rest of the way until the sorc (who is still being ignored of course) pulls them up. They then wait a couple of seconds and roll to the finish line.

 

Or maybe they get the ball without using roll, walk to the acid pit, roll over it, walk a little more, get pulled up, roll to the line then walk it in.

 

Or maybe they get the ball without using roll, roll twice to get pulled and then wait for the CD to come up to roll again.

 

Not sure if you've noticed anything about these sequences but all of them have dead time where either roll is on CD or you're moving without it to have the roll available. Roots, stuns, pulls, pushes, all work pretty well there. Or maybe someone could push / pull the sorc off the top.

 

Ironically in the examples given there's always a sorc pulling people forward yet not one peep about how strong they are.

 

Here's another viable example for you. The maestro sorc who evades the entire enemy team despite being in plain view is back on his perch. A Jugg gets the ball, he mad dashes, get's pulled and as he's pulled the sorc uses force speed to jump to the line creating a lovely intercede for the jugg. Or maybe there's an enemy there! Leap + push + leap and that's a one man ball handling machine. Wow, nerf juggs, please.

 

You can probably create as many scenarios as you want where every class is aided by this apex sorc who never gets touched but obviously, that's stupid.

[jimalexblack]

Jugg - Mad Dash

Op - Roll

Sniper - Roll

Sin - Force Speed

Sorc - Force Speed

 

+Merc Rocket Out

[snave]

Oh and seeing as no one seems to have brought this up I'll explain why hinder was a spectacularly bad idea.

 

The ball is effectively electronet. The strategy we were talking about for hinder huttball or as I like to call it, DEATHBALL, was to identify the enemy targets such as healers and then give them the ball. Once they have the ball you can root lock them, you don't even need to use stuns, blow them up, get the ball back and repeat. The best thing about this is players will normally focus the ball carrier regardless so even with pugs not listening to you there's a good chance they'll hit the right guy. It doesn't really matter if they get white barred because they're hindered anyway and the time to get to the line is much slower. Once one is dead, repeat for 12 minutes.

 

But Snave! I hear you say, "if you do that I'll just pass the ball to someone else immediately to avoid dying! checkmate op operative!". Yes, you can dump the ball to a teammate who will then get focused, and they'll pass to someone else, and they'll pass to someone else and so on. For the whole game.

 

Well, first off that ball is going to get intercepted just from the sheer number of stuns and mezzes flying about, but just picture how absolutely stupid those matches would be. You wouldn't leave the middle and even if you tried to get some forward passing going leap and stun would get it back 100% of the time, or we could just pull / push back into mid, or there's always good old-fashioned fire pulls.

 

I'm almost sad we didn't get to test it out on the PTS.

[snave]

+Merc Rocket Out

 

Nerf mercs and buff PT's, clearly PT is the worst class at huttball because they can't run towards stealthed sorcs fast enough.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Nerf mercs and buff PT's, clearly PT is the worst class at huttball because they can't run towards stealthed sorcs fast enough.

 

Even buffed they couldn't run towards stealthed sorcs fast enough, because if they're stealthed they don't even know they are there! =p

[septru]

We also plan to keep the change that prevents stunned targets from catching the Huttball, as it allows characters that lack a knockback ability to have a viable and reliable way to intercept passes. It also has an additional benefit of giving players another reason to use their stun abilities on characters other than the ball carrier. Ultimately, it should mean that you get stunned a little less often while carrying the Huttball.

 

I really really dislike the stun to intercept change for 2 reasons.

 

1) This allows for a more "dumbed down" huttball, where players just need to stun to intercept. Ranged stuns like force lift, low slash, concussion missile would make it extremely easy to stun someone out and intercept the ball. I understand the desire to reduce the amount of stuns on the ball carrier, but considering how hard it is to avoid stuns in the game, it will get very very annoying when every single pass is intercepted because all the opposite team needs to do is stun. I'd rather make it easy for opponents to stun 1 person carrying the ball, than make it easy for opponents to stun every single pass I try to make.

 

2) I believe the better solution is to remove "double click toggle" for huttball passes. This will make it very unlikely that someone will get the perfect pass and increase the chance to intercept a pass. In addition to this a X% movement speed decrease can be applied to players so that passing really becomes a more viable way of advancing the ball. And maybe in addition, The Hutt will become bored of a single ball carrier and kill them after 30 seconds (down from 45 minutes) to further increase the need to pass.

 

I don't know. I am just theorizing with these changes but in my opinion, anything is better than the stun to intercept change because it dumbs down the game.

[Banderal]

I really really dislike the stun to intercept change for 2 reasons.

 

1) This allows for a more "dumbed down" huttball, where players just need to stun to intercept. Ranged stuns like force lift, low slash, concussion missile would make it extremely easy to stun someone out and intercept the ball. I understand the desire to reduce the amount of stuns on the ball carrier, but considering how hard it is to avoid stuns in the game, it will get very very annoying when every single pass is intercepted because all the opposite team needs to do is stun. I'd rather make it easy for opponents to stun 1 person carrying the ball, than make it easy for opponents to stun every single pass I try to make.

 

2) I believe the better solution is to remove "double click toggle" for huttball passes. This will make it very unlikely that someone will get the perfect pass and increase the chance to intercept a pass. In addition to this a X% movement speed decrease can be applied to players so that passing really becomes a more viable way of advancing the ball. And maybe in addition, The Hutt will become bored of a single ball carrier and kill them after 30 seconds (down from 45 minutes) to further increase the need to pass.

 

I don't know. I am just theorizing with these changes but in my opinion, anything is better than the stun to intercept change because it dumbs down the game.

 

I agree that stun to intercept is not good. If you want to encourage passing, then you should not add even MORE risk to passing. Yes, not every class has "knockback" to intercept. But also not every class has leap to intercept. Not every class has roll off platform into EZ. Not every class has stun immunity after leap. Not every class has pull, or friendly pull. Not every class does so much damage that they can rip an unprotected ball carrier apart in a matter of a few GCD . That's called having different classes be able to do different things.

 

I also like the idea of lowering the explode timer. I suggested, as I typed at the time, "half jokingly" to make it 10 seconds. Way back on like page 5 of this thread (no, I'm not going to look up exactly where )... But I like 30 seconds. 45, when I count it out, or watch on a watch, just seems to long. As others have predicted, it seems like it will just make the highly mobile classes even that much more valuable than they already are. Because they will probably be able to make it anyway. I would at least like to see bioware acknowledge that the exact amount of time will be something they will be watching on the PTS and are willing to adjust.

 

I think slowing down the ball carrier even more might be a bit much. With the player applied slows that happen on top of the ball-carrier-slow, sometimes I feel like I'm just standing still already.

 

I don't use the double-click-auto-pass, so the only way that affects me in that once in a while I do it accidentally which always results in a pass to the enemy. So I would not mind at all if that were removed.

[Banderal]

Even buffed they couldn't run towards stealthed sorcs fast enough, because if they're stealthed they don't even know they are there! =p

 

Those stealthed sorc's are a hazard!

 

Yesterday, upon the huttball stair,

I met a stealth sorc who wasn't there

He wasn't there again today

I wish, I wish he'd go away.

 

Edited June 7, 2018 by Banderal

[Iymurra]

Any chance we could get a weekend long temporary patch with Hinder on the ball carrier during PTS for these changes (if they're hitting PTS) to compare how huttball plays with and without mobility cooldowns?

 

Personally I'd love hinder on the ball carrier with the current 67% slow. Would force more passing and might also force a reevaluation of operative DCDs.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Those stealthed sorc's are a hazard!

 

Yesterday, upon the huttball stair,

I met a stealth sorc who wasn't there

He wasn't there again today

I wish, I wish he'd go away.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I trip over them all the time, and the worst part is I have no idea how their stealthed because they're sorcs!.

Edited June 8, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Going]

I don't know. I am just theorizing with these changes but in my opinion, anything is better than the stun to intercept change because it dumbs down the game.

 

Really think it dumbs the game down? I feel like if anything it adds more interesting plays to the game, and gives more opportunity's to get the ball back instead of trying to kill them.

Most of the people in pvp can't seem to grasp cc as it stands, so I dont think its much of a concern tbh.

[kjarnage]

high mobility is almost impossible to stop within a run to the end zone. It also leaves everyone behind when racing through obstacles. It should be a good change.

 

Players do not like to lose. Losing too often can kill the desire to play. I suggest the ranking be based on win percentage. That way winning players find losing ones on their team. Also by leaving the game early because the team is losing should not affect the percentage. A player that keeps bailing on potential loses will begin to find himself with a high win percentage and be cast with more losing players. Let premades ride on the highest win percentage of the team as they start with some advantages.

[TrixxieTriss]

Hey folks,

 

Based on all of the feedback we have been reading in this thread, we are going to be walking back some of our proposed Huttball changes along with adding a few new ones. Let’s start with what we are not doing:

• We will no longer apply Hinder to the ball carrier.
  
• Ball carriers will once again move at 67% move speed (down from 80%)
  

 

Although we are fine with tanks being the best ball carriers while under the effects of Hinder, we hear your concerns that these changes could cause Huttball to become a stalemate too often. We are also sensitive over your feeling that certain Classes would be too limited and unable to defend themselves while carrying the Huttball, since many defensive capabilities are tied to movement abilities for several Classes.

 

On the other hand, we plan to keep the proposed attacker point changes. We feel that players who properly position themselves to receive a Huttball pass should be rewarded. We also plan to keep the change that prevents stunned targets from catching the Huttball, as it allows characters that lack a knockback ability to have a viable and reliable way to intercept passes. It also has an additional benefit of giving players another reason to use their stun abilities on characters other than the ball carrier. Ultimately, it should mean that you get stunned a little less often while carrying the Huttball.

 

The hinder change was aimed at addressing specific issues with Huttball, and since we are reverting it, we’ll be tackling those issues with some new proposed changes.

 

New Huttball (and Queshball) Changes

• The Hutt will become bored of a single ball carrier and kill them after 45 seconds (down from 2 minutes)
  
• To win before time expires, the winning team will need to score 10 times (up from 6 times)
  
• The match will now last for a maximum of 10 minutes (down from 13 minutes)
  

 

The first change is intended to encourage passing the Huttball and increase tension when attempting to turtle for a win in a close match. The latter two changes will adjust how we approach this Warzone. If you see Huttball as a sport within SWTOR, we want to have the Warzone play out more as “who can score the most points within a 10 minute match” as opposed to “race to 6 points to win.” This will also ensure that all Huttball matches are 12 minutes or less (if you count pre-match). We hope that these changes along with our updates in matchmaking will lead to a lot closer and more compelling Huttball matches.

 

Let us know your thoughts on these changes!

 

-eric

 

Eric, one of the biggest gripes about Hutt Ball are the bugs and Dysnc. If you guys can fix those, our Hutt Ball experience would be improved 10 fold. Especially Operative roll and making the traps actually kill people instead of some being able to casually walk through (it happens).

Edited June 8, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

Yeah, I trip over them all the time, and the worst part is I have no idea how their stealthed because they're sorcs!.

 

Was there an operative near him too

Edited June 8, 2018 by TrixxieTriss