Horrible Roadmap.

[Talon_strikes]

But most people in the game do not PvP.

Do you have any proof or metrics from BW to back up this claim?

[DarthSpuds]

 

I think 3 major content releases a year... one for each part of the game is a great model... they can then make mini QOL patches inbetween

 

That would be great.

 

But we haven't had that since before Knights.

 

All The Best

[DarthSpuds]

Do you have any proof or metrics from BW to back up this claim?

 

I am sure there was mention in a podcast some Bioware guys did with a fansite (may have been one of the Bad Feeling ones?) that PvP and OPs participation combined didn't even amount to 25% of the playerbase.

 

That would be under the industry average, but not by much.

 

As a general rule in traditional MMORPGs you have roughly 20% participation in PvP, roughly 20% participation in Raids/OPs or equivalent, and roughly a 50% crossover between the groups - giving combined participation of roughly 30%.

 

One comment I did see from a former Community Manager at Turbine (when they still had LOTRO) was that although PvP/Raid participation was roughly 30% of players, comments from those players made up roughly 70% of the forum feedback on "game balance". Meaning that a "vocal minority" often shaped the direction the game took, and which changes were implemented and how.

 

Given that the traditional MMORPG market seems to be in decline, and that PVP/Raid participation is also in decline, and that "player satisfaction" is really, really low I would suggest that a smart MMORPG Producer would simply stop listening to said vocal minority quite so much.

 

PvPers whine - all the time, about anything that they perceive gives someone else an edge - except notably, their own lack of skill and adaptability. Even IF PvP were perfectly balanced the guys who loses would, by and large, complain that something the other guys has needs nerfing, or something he has needs buffing. That is just the nature of PvP.

 

Maybe it's time MMORPG companies stopped trying to please the very vocal minority who are simply never going to be pleased anyway.

 

All The Best

[Aries_cz]

Another shining example of "everybody gets a medal" thinking.

 

The world does not revolve around you, many other people with different interests play this game.

 

I am no avid fan of PvP, because I am semi-bad at it, but I want to see what this update brings, as it might bring some fresh air into PvP with custom zones.

[IoNonSoEVero]

Do you have any proof or metrics from BW to back up this claim?

 

Do you have any proof or metrics to prove the opposite?

 

The fact that the PvP instances are empty and PvPers constantly complain here about queuing for long periods of time would suggest that it isn't an interest for most players.

Edited May 20, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[IoNonSoEVero]

I am sure there was mention in a podcast some Bioware guys did with a fansite (may have been one of the Bad Feeling ones?) that PvP and OPs participation combined didn't even amount to 25% of the playerbase.

 

That would be under the industry average, but not by much.

 

As a general rule in traditional MMORPGs you have roughly 20% participation in PvP, roughly 20% participation in Raids/OPs or equivalent, and roughly a 50% crossover between the groups - giving combined participation of roughly 30%.

 

One comment I did see from a former Community Manager at Turbine (when they still had LOTRO) was that although PvP/Raid participation was roughly 30% of players, comments from those players made up roughly 70% of the forum feedback on "game balance". Meaning that a "vocal minority" often shaped the direction the game took, and which changes were implemented and how.

 

Given that the traditional MMORPG market seems to be in decline, and that PVP/Raid participation is also in decline, and that "player satisfaction" is really, really low I would suggest that a smart MMORPG Producer would simply stop listening to said vocal minority quite so much.

 

PvPers whine - all the time, about anything that they perceive gives someone else an edge - except notably, their own lack of skill and adaptability. Even IF PvP were perfectly balanced the guys who loses would, by and large, complain that something the other guys has needs nerfing, or something he has needs buffing. That is just the nature of PvP.

 

Maybe it's time MMORPG companies stopped trying to please the very vocal minority who are simply never going to be pleased anyway.

 

All The Best

 

This. Thank you for this info. The world does not revolve around story players but there is no reason they should continue to pay subs to support the game while getting nothing and watching the game cater to the 25% that yells loudest.

Edited May 20, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[Master_Morak]

I am sure there was mention in a podcast some Bioware guys did with a fansite (may have been one of the Bad Feeling ones?) that PvP and OPs participation combined didn't even amount to 25% of the playerbase.

 

That would be under the industry average, but not by much.

 

As a general rule in traditional MMORPGs you have roughly 20% participation in PvP, roughly 20% participation in Raids/OPs or equivalent, and roughly a 50% crossover between the groups - giving combined participation of roughly 30%.

 

One comment I did see from a former Community Manager at Turbine (when they still had LOTRO) was that although PvP/Raid participation was roughly 30% of players, comments from those players made up roughly 70% of the forum feedback on "game balance". Meaning that a "vocal minority" often shaped the direction the game took, and which changes were implemented and how.

 

Given that the traditional MMORPG market seems to be in decline, and that PVP/Raid participation is also in decline, and that "player satisfaction" is really, really low I would suggest that a smart MMORPG Producer would simply stop listening to said vocal minority quite so much.

 

PvPers whine - all the time, about anything that they perceive gives someone else an edge - except notably, their own lack of skill and adaptability. Even IF PvP were perfectly balanced the guys who loses would, by and large, complain that something the other guys has needs nerfing, or something he has needs buffing. That is just the nature of PvP.

 

Maybe it's time MMORPG companies stopped trying to please the very vocal minority who are simply never going to be pleased anyway.

 

All The Best

 

A very good post - you say with better words what I have written - sometimes in rough words - in my former posts.

 

I unterstand that companies in a short time look want to get Money from all player types instead of focusing on a special base and support that well.

 

I my opionion it's allways a bad decision to have PvE and PvP in one game. PvP allways ruined a game that takes RPG in ist brand because PvP needs a balance between all classes and that is opposite to that what RPG needs.

[DarthWoad]

That clearly puts you into the minority interest group about the roadmap. Which is fine.. but you own that.

 

Where is your proof of this?

 

 

but I applaud the studios continued willingness to think outside the MMO box and innovate in a genre that honestly is getting old and repetitive on the part of studios.

 

"Continued" is debatable. Nobody liked KOTFE KOTET story wise and its taken them too long to listen to what the players want.

Edited May 20, 2018 by DarthWoad

[americanaussie]

Where is your proof of this?

 

 

 

 

"Continued" is debatable. Nobody liked KOTFE KOTET story wise and its taken them too long to listen to what the players want.

 

 

 

Where is your proof of this?

 

I am somebody and I liked Kotfe, and really loved KOTET. It was interesting. I enjoyed it on my agent, so yeah, a non force user. I think KOTET and Revan tie for most interesting in my opinion. I was totally bored with the vanilla story. I hated makeb. Left for a bit, came back and started KOTFE and loved it so much I subbed. I'll admit, I'm not one for playing it a billion times though however, I enjoyed it.

 

 

We each have our own likes and dislikes. Never say EVERYONE because you are not EVERYONE.

[DavidAtkinson]

This. Thank you for this info. The world does not revolve around story players but there is no reason they should continue to pay subs to support the game while getting nothing and watching the game cater to the 25% that yells loudest.

 

Yeah... PVP-ers got nothing for years and now that they are getting something, story players suddenly started whining about it. How interesting.

 

What is stopping story players from being a "vocal minority". Nothing... but story players don't give a ... about game mechanics. They are just there to complete their missions and they do it again, and again.. and again.. and int he end they get bored and leave the game. PVP-ers and group content players are different and making PVP maps and group content in general is cheaper.

 

I am so amused of story players raging now as most of them hated KOTET and KOTFE even though they were pretty good expansions, but they didn't know at the time that they might not get anything like it in the future.

 

Too bad you didn't enjoy what you had back then. Shame.

Edited May 20, 2018 by DavidAtkinson

[onemoreround]

Of all the road maps in the last 12-16 months, I think this one has been the most well received. I agree that there seems to be more optimism around this road map and much less nay sayers than we usually have.

 

Well I think it's more of case of people's expectations being so low after several years of the bare minimum content being produced that nobody can be bothered to complain or are even slightly surprised when it's another empty roadmap. However we pay the same amount we did 5 years ago & get about 10% the amount of content. The roadmap certainly aided me in my decision to unsubscribe. I hope we'll see a proper expansion this year that I can come back too but I'm definitely going to wait & see before re-joining this game ever again.

[Jdast]

In May 2015, the lead designer of WoW (Ion Hazzikostas) was quite the kersnuffaluffager when he caused a riotous ruckus by acknowledging the obvious:

 

"Players don't play WoW year-round anymore, they just come back for new content and then go off to play other games..."

 

People on the WoW forums went bat guano bonkers screaming at the top of their loquacious lungs about how the game should provide incentives for people to play year round. He followed up that the only way that was possible to create tiers of group content, PvP, etc., but that it is impossible, even for behemoths like WoW to create content fast enough to satisfy most players, except for altoholics and super high end raid gamers (and even they eventually finish before the cycle is complete), and seasonal PvP-ers.

 

Why would SWTOR be any different, particularly given far, far fewer development resources?

 

Note: There is a categorical difference between taking a break (or even quit) because you don't like the direction of the game (e.g., the new Conquest system) vs. there is a content drought. I have quit several games like LotRO, Rift, FFXIV because I didn't like where the game was and, more importantly, where they were going. I have taken breaks from WoW, ESO, and this game (as in, suspended my subscription), because I like the games -- but this isn't a charity -- once they released new content I came back.

 

But I guess I'm lucky because I enjoy ESO and WoW (and Subnautica, Pillars of Eternity, etc.). ESO has a new expansion coming out tomorrow, and WoW in a couple months.

 

Maybe it's the passion for Star Wars but, as others have said, enjoy the game for what it is -- content development is very unlikely to increase. Want to argue over direction of game -- have at it, but you're tilting at windmills to complain about the PACE of content development.

 

View this game like a fried cicada dessert (cicada's have a gestation period of 2 to 17 years) -- it rarely spawns something new -- but when it does, it is delicious. Now, if you don't like fried cicadas, then, well, that sentence finishes itself.

 

It's really not that complicated.

 

Dasty

Edited May 20, 2018 by Jdast

[DarthWoad]

Where is your proof of this?

 

I am somebody and I liked Kotfe, and really loved KOTET. It was interesting. I enjoyed it on my agent, so yeah, a non force user. I think KOTET and Revan tie for most interesting in my opinion. I was totally bored with the vanilla story. I hated makeb. Left for a bit, came back and started KOTFE and loved it so much I subbed. I'll admit, I'm not one for playing it a billion times though however, I enjoyed it.

 

 

We each have our own likes and dislikes. Never say EVERYONE because you are not EVERYONE.

 

I see you took my generalization quite literally. Feedback on the forums, on youtube and other sites show a general dislike for the recent expansions in the way the story was, which is why Bioware is going back to traditional routes to appease players. This can be backed up along with general population decline etc.

 

Judging from the amount of negative feedback on this that ive seen, the majority of players would rather have had other story directions than what kotet/kotfe went. If you like it, thats good for you. I'm not telling you to like or dislike it, only what i have observed.

Edited May 20, 2018 by DarthWoad

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

So I should have to pay? Not the billion dollar company that is EA? They want more of your money at the same time, do less work and invest less into the game. Nothing against them improving PVP my friend.

 

Thing is people always skip reading the TOS rules when you first sign up. Everyone does that. But, and here is the big but, if you had read it you would have seen that there is a clause that states essentially [im paraphrasing] you're paying for present content and they are under no obligation to adjust subscription fees for periods without new content added. All the MMOS have that clause.

 

And yes, you should have to pay for parts of the game you don't choose to play. They don't know what parts individuals may like or not. You might not like paying for things that you don't like playing, but I have to pay for developments in Conquest, Strongholds and crafting all aspects of the game they as far as I am concerned is total crap. I'm not interesting in any of those things, but, I should have to help pay for the development and maintaince of them.

 

Maintenance is the second clause of note in the TOS. We are all paying towards upkeep and maintaince costs which are a constant throughout the time of service.

 

You have to pay to go see the same movie in the movie theater you have already gone to see twice before. You don't get a discount for having seen it already. You pay full price every single time even though nothing new has been added. Same goes for Burger King, Car Washes, Taxis, Trains, Gas Stations and prostitutes. Doesn't matter that there has been nothing new added since the last time you used any of those services.

 

Furthermore you are also paying for unlimited access and benefits in the game that people who do not pay do not have. We own nothing in this game, every single part of it belongs to them including your characters. You are renting their creations. Think of it like an apartment. Same old place, nothing new, but you get to go anywhere in that apartment you like at anytime. You don't own that apartment, it still belongs to your landlord and is their property, you are merely renting the rights to use it. If you stop paying, chances are good you will notice a significant change in your living conditions before too long =p

 

You have already agreed to pay for all the things you are now taking exception with. We all want new content, of course and sure we might hope for more, but that's not something we can demand of them based on our current subscription obligations. Those we have already agreed to for the life of the subscription. Really the only control you have over the state of things is whether or not you continue to pay them a subscription fee, that you can stop and is entirely up to you.

 

There is a reason it's called 'the fine print', and yet we never read it heh.

[Mirandel]

I am sure there was mention in a podcast some Bioware guys did with a fansite (may have been one of the Bad Feeling ones?) that PvP and OPs participation combined didn't even amount to 25% of the playerbase.

 

That would be under the industry average, but not by much.

 

As a general rule in traditional MMORPGs you have roughly 20% participation in PvP, roughly 20% participation in Raids/OPs or equivalent, and roughly a 50% crossover between the groups - giving combined participation of roughly 30%.

 

One comment I did see from a former Community Manager at Turbine (when they still had LOTRO) was that although PvP/Raid participation was roughly 30% of players, comments from those players made up roughly 70% of the forum feedback on "game balance". Meaning that a "vocal minority" often shaped the direction the game took, and which changes were implemented and how. .....

All The Best

 

May I correct you a little? Because I happen to have a link to that post from Turbine:

https://www.engadget.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/

 

Raiders comprise the smallest, by far, group in our game. PvMP players are far larger and even they are small. in fact together the two groups wouldn't comprise 10% of the total player base and never have (this is important. it's not a new thing, it's a long standing historical fact).

 

Forum posters comprise a slightly larger group than the combined group of PvMP and Raiders. However, Raiders and PvMP players make up the overwhelming majority of forum posters (More than half. Though raiders are the smaller group of the two (PvMP/Raiders)). So you have a tiny group, inside a small group that is grossly disproportionately represented on the forums.

 

But WayOfTheWarriorx and Jdast are right about content (addition) nevertheless.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Mirandel

[RikuvonDrake]

Endgame PvE and PvP requires a subscription, meaning those players are able to regularly post on the forum, meanwhile the majority of the player base doesn't do content that requires a subscription, meaning many don't have a sub and are unable to post on the forum. Based on that it's hardly unreasonable that the majority of the forum posts are about endgame PvP/PvE or things that are connected to that such as class balancing.

 

What would be interesting statistics is what content that players who are bringing resources and income to the game are playing, sure if possible catering to the f2p population isn't bad, but it should hardly be prioritized over paying customers.

 

That said, I liked the roadmap.

Edited May 20, 2018 by RikuvonDrake

[Quraswren]

It was a fairly disappointing roadmap.

 

A summer of PVP updates in a game based on story content. Even though we all know PVP needed a boost, it's an odd choice for summer content when so much of the game relies on story content and those players. Seems like those changes should have been in addition to something larger. I don't see lot of player retention happening in that move over the summer when people tend to have more free time and PVP in swtor was never anything to really go nuts about.

 

the gambling event comes back. Unless they really change that up with new prizes, it's an old credit sink that I can't see gamers returning for over the summer. $15 a month to for a credit sink.. I don't see it.

 

No story content for at least 4 months.

 

No FP for at least that long.

 

No OPS till.... Well, lets just say no ops till after February 2019 and thats being hopeful on just seeing one boss.

 

Conquest still borked till who knows when but screwed up over the summer no doubt.

 

Even with needed PVP updates. It's an off move for the summer months and the rest was pretty mediocre if that. Very few real details on any of it so I can't say it was anything to really get excited over.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Quraswren

[MadDutchman]

In May 2015, the lead designer of WoW (Ion Hazzikostas) was quite the kersnuffaluffager when he caused a riotous ruckus by acknowledging the obvious:

 

"Players don't play WoW year-round anymore, they just come back for new content and then go off to play other games..."

 

People on the WoW forums went bat guano bonkers screaming at the top of their loquacious lungs about how the game should provide incentives for people to play year round. He followed up that the only way that was possible to create tiers of group content, PvP, etc., but that it is impossible, even for behemoths like WoW to create content fast enough to satisfy most players, except for altoholics and super high end raid gamers (and even they eventually finish before the cycle is complete), and seasonal PvP-ers.

 

Why would SWTOR be any different, particularly given far, far fewer development resources?

 

Note: There is a categorical difference between taking a break (or even quit) because you don't like the direction of the game (e.g., the new Conquest system) vs. there is a content drought. I have quit several games like LotRO, Rift, FFXIV because I didn't like where the game was and, more importantly, where they were going. I have taken breaks from WoW, ESO, and this game (as in, suspended my subscription), because I like the games -- but this isn't a charity -- once they released new content I came back.

 

But I guess I'm lucky because I enjoy ESO and WoW (and Subnautica, Pillars of Eternity, etc.). ESO has a new expansion coming out tomorrow, and WoW in a couple months.

 

Maybe it's the passion for Star Wars but, as others have said, enjoy the game for what it is -- content development is very unlikely to increase. Want to argue over direction of game -- have at it, but you're tilting at windmills to complain about the PACE of content development.

 

View this game like a fried cicada dessert (cicada's have a gestation period of 2 to 17 years) -- it rarely spawns something new -- but when it does, it is delicious. Now, if you don't like fried cicadas, then, well, that sentence finishes itself.

 

It's really not that complicated.

 

Dasty

 

I gotta say, you managed to present an argument that has been given ad nauseum since the day the game launched in a new and colourful way, so bravo

 

(Not that I expect the doom and gloom crowd to appreciate it)

[Hudlar]

In May 2015, the lead designer of WoW (Ion Hazzikostas) was quite the kersnuffaluffager when he caused a riotous ruckus by acknowledging the obvious:

 

"Players don't play WoW year-round anymore, they just come back for new content and then go off to play other games..."

 

People on the WoW forums went bat guano bonkers screaming at the top of their loquacious lungs about how the game should provide incentives for people to play year round. He followed up that the only way that was possible to create tiers of group content, PvP, etc., but that it is impossible, even for behemoths like WoW to create content fast enough to satisfy most players, except for altoholics and super high end raid gamers (and even they eventually finish before the cycle is complete), and seasonal PvP-ers.

 

Why would SWTOR be any different, particularly given far, far fewer development resources?

 

Note: There is a categorical difference between taking a break (or even quit) because you don't like the direction of the game (e.g., the new Conquest system) vs. there is a content drought. I have quit several games like LotRO, Rift, FFXIV because I didn't like where the game was and, more importantly, where they were going. I have taken breaks from WoW, ESO, and this game (as in, suspended my subscription), because I like the games -- but this isn't a charity -- once they released new content I came back.

 

But I guess I'm lucky because I enjoy ESO and WoW (and Subnautica, Pillars of Eternity, etc.). ESO has a new expansion coming out tomorrow, and WoW in a couple months.

 

Maybe it's the passion for Star Wars but, as others have said, enjoy the game for what it is -- content development is very unlikely to increase. Want to argue over direction of game -- have at it, but you're tilting at windmills to complain about the PACE of content development.

 

View this game like a fried cicada dessert (cicada's have a gestation period of 2 to 17 years) -- it rarely spawns something new -- but when it does, it is delicious. Now, if you don't like fried cicadas, then, well, that sentence finishes itself.

 

It's really not that complicated.

 

Dasty

 

MadDutchman got there first, but I still have to compliment you on an awesome turn of phrase. Bravo!

 

I agree with your actual point as well. I'm a story player, but I still feel like I'll have lots of things to do over the summer: taking more alts through KOTFE/KOTET, starting a few new characters, and decorating the Rishi stronghold. However, people who feel like they're not getting value for money absolutely shouldn't keep paying. I'll be sad if some of the story players posting here decide to take a break, since I enjoy their forum posts, but as you say, the game isn't a charity.

[Rabin_Lorac]

Do you have any proof or metrics from BW to back up this claim?

 

LOL! Yeah we all do its called long queue wait time and no pops. If you really put your mind to it and think about it we really only need 12 people (6v6) to get a pop and when there is no pops and you are waiting in queue that means there are not another 11 people wanting to pvp. Hundreds on fleet, thousands logged in one a server and there are not 11 other people that are in a queue for pvp? Yes, the majority do not pvp and it is an extreme minority that does.

[annabethchase]

May I correct you a little? Because I happen to have a link to that post from Turbine:

https://www.engadget.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/

 

Raiders comprise the smallest, by far, group in our game. PvMP players are far larger and even they are small. in fact together the two groups wouldn't comprise 10% of the total player base and never have (this is important. it's not a new thing, it's a long standing historical fact).

 

Forum posters comprise a slightly larger group than the combined group of PvMP and Raiders. However, Raiders and PvMP players make up the overwhelming majority of forum posters (More than half. Though raiders are the smaller group of the two (PvMP/Raiders)). So you have a tiny group, inside a small group that is grossly disproportionately represented on the forums.

 

But WayOfTheWarriorx and Jdast are right about content (addition) nevertheless.

 

I totally belive this is true, for LOTRO. I caution against using it as proof of raid vs. pvp popularity in all games. I played LOTRO for probably a year at launch, putting plenty of time into the game. Yet I only did the first raid 1-2 times. In the same first year here, I probably did raids 2 times a week on average. This was in an relatively equal amount of total gaming time per week.

 

The reason is because the raids in LOTRO just weren't as accessible. Guilds were strange/clunky in that game and at that time, the raid very much felt optional to the game. I recall it also taking a long time, requiring more strategizing at a time when voice chat was less accessible. I recall a lot of standing around doing nothing.

 

PvP was even more odd, as you don't play as yourself but as an "monster". Felt extremely optional and disconnected from the main game.

 

So I think their specific numbers are lower than ours, based on their particular game.

[annabethchase]

...

A summer of PVP updates in a game based on story content. Even though we all know PVP needed a boost, it's an odd choice for summer content when so much of the game relies on story content and those players. Seems like those changes should have been in addition to something larger. I don't see lot of player retention happening in that move over the summer when people tend to have more free time and PVP in swtor was never anything to really go nuts about...

 

PvP is content that can be repeated infinitely. It does make sense as a summer thing to "keep us busy". Remember the last few "summer of swtor" type content have all revolved around repeatable content that wasn't exactly new to any of us.

 

So the timing of this update makes sense to me. It's the quarter of the year I would have picked for a PvP focus as well.

[ivanhedgehog]

Chapters, or open planets like Rishi etc. T

 

snip

 

The past year and a half has been addressing issues, which do need to be done it's just dragging out a long time now.

 

issues that they created and spent the better part of a year fixing. Then repeated with conquest and cant understand why guilds left the game.

[Asmodesu]

issues that they created and spent the better part of a year fixing. Then repeated with conquest and cant understand why guilds left the game.

 

And I've watched some brand new guilds, and others with more open minds and adaptability, really take off since the first changes. Doesn't mean they like it but they're not afraid of the change and make it work as the weeks go by.

Yes some left, but also yes some are really taking the reins and still working hard on it.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Asmodesu

[TrixxieTriss]

Well I think it's more of case of people's expectations being so low after several years of the bare minimum content being produced that nobody can be bothered to complain or are even slightly surprised when it's another empty roadmap. However we pay the same amount we did 5 years ago & get about 10% the amount of content. The roadmap certainly aided me in my decision to unsubscribe. I hope we'll see a proper expansion this year that I can come back too but I'm definitely going to wait & see before re-joining this game ever again.

 

As someone whose mainly been pvping for the last 6 years and had hardly any content or focus added, compared to EVERY other part of this game, especially OPs (first 3 years) and story (last 3 years). this is a brilliant road map for me.

It’s the first time we’ve actually had some proper focus on pvp in 6 years.

I’m sorry they can’t afford to do a road map for everyone at the same time, but this road map for pvp is long over due.