gamephil Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 (edited) I don't know I don't think Senya gave up, but I do think she realized like in the past when she left she was in an impossible situation. As for PC the only time we use her conditioning against her was before we knew about Nathema and really what else did we have to work with. You can show some empathy but I think Vaylin had a subconscious death wish. I won't argue about Senya. I want to see her that way. I just think the way she was presented makes it very hard. As for not knowing about Nathema, we still knew from their conversation what had happened. "You caged me like an animal!" "Did you think I did it to punish you? No." An abuse victim shouting at her abuser, and him trying to make her abuse out to be a favor. It makes my skin crawl. Appropriately, since he is the villain, good job, there. And we go along with it. But if using it had been a matter of desperation, if we'd even called for her to surrender first rather than after hurting her, if it had even been part of a better plan, I could let it go, but they made it about humiliating her, walking in among bystanders too far to be able to actually defeat her and provoking her so we could show it off. That should not stand. And I firmly believe she had a death wish. After all, she didn't shout, "I don't want to die!" but "Not in this place!" She was a suicidal mentally ill abuse survivor. It makes the way we talk to her that much worse. Fingers crossed for some dialog that makes this better. I want more, yes, because I don't think that's enough, but I'll take it. I have serious doubts, but we'll know soon. I just hope it's not just if we romance Arcann, because I really don't want to. Edited March 18, 2018 by gamephil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Anger can last, and I didn't mean it as a bad thing (Bad response etc.). Mental health is a common subject in our house, I also have a problem with mental illness = monster/ evil, but I just don't read it that way I guess. Yeah, but I don't feel it as anger any longer. Most of the time, anyway. It's faded and become something less intense but more long lasting. There are moments that feel that way but I just read them as flaws for meta reasons, rather than that that was the story the writers were trying to tell. I generally get the positive reads you mention on what you think they were aiming for. With a few areas where it hasn't quite worked for one reason or another. I just don't know. Between how small the changes would have to be, and the fact that so many players reacted to it, not with compassion-but-it-was-a-good-story (I don't agree that it was good, obviously, but it's a fair sentiment), but with she got what she had coming, make me wonder what exactly the intent was. The framing just feels like so many villains, the command phrase felt like using garlic on a vampire: a weakness to defeat a monster, not the result of a lifetime of abuse. Makes my eye twitch. Senya's letter helps a bit. I would have liked it to include, "And I don't blame Vaylin, either", but maybe that's meant to be implied. I would have liked it to have a wish for reconciliation with the woman rather than wishing for the little girl back, for various reasons, but it helps. I'd just have liked to see more of that from the character I'm playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Fingers crossed for some dialog that makes this better. I want more, yes, because I don't think that's enough, but I'll take it. I have serious doubts, but we'll know soon. I just hope it's not just if we romance Arcann, because I really don't want to. Hmm, think they'll even acknowledge Vaylin in this Arcann romance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskIsNotAmused Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Yeah, but I don't feel it as anger any longer. Most of the time, anyway. It's faded and become something less intense but more long lasting. I just don't know. Between how small the changes would have to be, and the fact that so many players reacted to it, not with compassion-but-it-was-a-good-story (I don't agree that it was good, obviously, but it's a fair sentiment), but with she got what she had coming, make me wonder what exactly the intent was. The framing just feels like so many villains, the command phrase felt like using garlic on a vampire: a weakness to defeat a monster, not the result of a lifetime of abuse. Makes my eye twitch. Senya's letter helps a bit. I would have liked it to include, "And I don't blame Vaylin, either", but maybe that's meant to be implied. I would have liked it to have a wish for reconciliation with the woman rather than wishing for the little girl back, for various reasons, but it helps. I'd just have liked to see more of that from the character I'm playing. No I understand, our takes are a bit different but the end result (Wanting better for Vaylin) is the same . I don't think I've seen this letter, what does it say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskIsNotAmused Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Hmm, think they'll even acknowledge Vaylin in this Arcann romance? No idea, but family featuring/ being mentioned is almost a given I'de expect. You come to the Arcann thread periodically, if anything turns up we'll be sure to mention it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 No idea, but family featuring/ being mentioned is almost a given I'de expect. You come to the Arcann thread periodically, if anything turns up we'll be sure to mention it Knowing our luck, Arcann and Senya will likely of had a private funeral ... Phil ... go to Zakuulan Walmart and get some shovels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 I don't think I've seen this letter, what does it say? It's the letter she sends you if she's alive after Chapter 8, where she says she doesn't blame you. I think it could have been better, but it wasn't bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakRoanin Posted March 18, 2018 Author Share Posted March 18, 2018 I won't argue about Senya. I want to see her that way. I just think the way she was presented makes it very hard. As for not knowing about Nathema, we still knew from their conversation what had happened. "You caged me like an animal!" "Did you think I did it to punish you? No." An abuse victim shouting at her abuser, and him trying to make her abuse out to be a favor. It makes my skin crawl. Appropriately, since he is the villain, good job, there. And we go along with it. But if using it had been a matter of desperation, if we'd even called for her to surrender first rather than after hurting her, if it had even been part of a better plan, I could let it go, but they made it about humiliating her, walking in among bystanders too far to be able to actually defeat her and provoking her so we could show it off. That should not stand. And I firmly believe she had a death wish. After all, she didn't shout, "I don't want to die!" but "Not in this place!" She was a suicidal mentally ill abuse survivor. It makes the way we talk to her that much worse. Fingers crossed for some dialog that makes this better. I want more, yes, because I don't think that's enough, but I'll take it. I have serious doubts, but we'll know soon. I just hope it's not just if we romance Arcann, because I really don't want to. You can tell Valky off after that vision... I agree our dialogue should have had more options, but I don't see LS PC's as abetting abuse. We have to remember that Valky is abusing us too so we don't have our full free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 (edited) You can tell Valky off after that vision... I agree our dialogue should have had more options, but I don't see LS PC's as abetting abuse. We have to remember that Valky is abusing us too so we don't have our full free will. Yes, you tell Valky off several times. Then turn around and actually use the abuser nonsense he gave you for your plans. As I said, if it had been a good plan, I could see it. But the plan that was revealed was one designed to humiliate, not defeat. And we get to use lines that may as well have come out of Valky's mouth. And if we dare to criticize LS Arcann during it, we reveal that the intent was to use her torture and, while she was helpless from it, kill her. In the same chapter where you could say, "I'll take her alive if I can" to Valkorion. If they hadn't tied that line to just wanting to criticize Arcann, or if it had been DS or otherwise clearly marked, it would be fine, but it wasn't. The inconsistency bugs me, but by bouncing between them, I have to assume that the results indicate the intent. And the result was torturing her, humiliating her, taunting her, and finally killing her. While assuring people that we are in control. Maybe the LS PC is not condoning abuse. Taken all together, the story feels like it is, though, at least for her. If the story were basically like the Agent's, where we're not fully under our own control, and this were clearly stated, I wouldn't have as much of a problem. But with the characters standing up and hurting her more and it feeling like it's supposed to be heroic, I can't see it. I just needed a bit of clear-cut regret during the confrontations with her. Normally, I might have filled that in for them. I like to think it was the intent, but after so much, I needed to see it, and I didn't until she was dead. So it goes. Edited March 18, 2018 by gamephil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakRoanin Posted March 18, 2018 Author Share Posted March 18, 2018 Unfortunately, when dealing with abusers (and let's be honest Vaylin became one) sometimes circumstances beyond the person who is trying to end the cycle has to be harsh and uncompromising. This is especially true when a victim-turned-abuser does not want (and possibly cannot except) help. As much as it grates Vaylin does not want to be saved, and we as the Outlander do not have endless amounts of time and resources to tie things up in a neat bow. Using her conditioning wasn't an act of torture for a LS Outlander, it was a necessary evil for the situation. The intent was to capture her. It didn't work, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Using her conditioning wasn't an act of torture for a LS Outlander, it was a necessary evil for the situation. The intent was to capture her. It didn't work, Uhh, I hate the party chapter. We should have followed the party guy into her room, used the phrase on her, stun her, then discreetly leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asmodesu Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Uhh, I hate the party chapter. We should have followed the party guy into her room, used the phrase on her, stun her, then discreetly leave. We wouldn't have been able to cause a galactic holonet-worthy bang if we did that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishpeople Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 We wouldn't have been able to cause a galactic holonet-worthy bang if we did that! Heh, in that scenario we could have broadcasted to the galaxy we've captured the Empress, other than those dudes in the black and gold armor, who I guess would be going nuts. We wouldn't have needed to worry about the fleet going into tantrum mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakRoanin Posted March 18, 2018 Author Share Posted March 18, 2018 What makes me furious is that my Trooper's wife doesn't have the decency to write me after seeing it! I can't even tell her how hurt he is without a divorce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asmodesu Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Heh, in that scenario we could have broadcasted to the galaxy we've captured the Empress, other than those dudes in the black and gold armor, who I guess would be going nuts. We wouldn't have needed to worry about the fleet going into tantrum mode. It only went into tantrum mode because Vaylin was killed. With her alive she controls the fleet completely, even if imprisoned so she could have made the fleet go full tantrum if she just had connection to one Gemini captain and then we'd have been in the same situation. Or even worse. I assume Vaylin and Arcann got instant control easily because of genetics/dna. Outlander had to survive seizing control through a electrical force storm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asmodesu Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 What makes me furious is that my Trooper's wife doesn't have the decency to write me after seeing it! I can't even tell her how hurt he is without a divorce. Elara even did the research report stuff for Jace on the Commander, she knew very well you were alive, well before you meet again. Just to make it worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 It only went into tantrum mode because Vaylin was killed. With her alive she controls the fleet completely, even if imprisoned so she could have made the fleet go full tantrum if she just had connection to one Gemini captain and then we'd have been in the same situation. Or even worse. I assume Vaylin and Arcann got instant control easily because of genetics/dna. Outlander had to survive seizing control through a electrical force storm. If Arcann were still alive, then why wouldn't control go back to him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asmodesu Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 (edited) If Arcann were still alive, then why wouldn't control go back to him? I actually have a few theories. 1- maybe because that was too hard because he could also be dead and, "we don't wanna get into that complicated mess". 2- Maybe it was in the cut content. 3 and most likely - Maybe it had something to do with Scorpio taking control FROM Arcann and then passing Vaylin the throne. Remember that Scorpio gave the fleet free will like her, and then Vaylin reprogrammed them after that so the throne was bound to her, until she died (body did at the very least). Edited March 18, 2018 by Asmodesu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 I actually have a few theories. 1- maybe because that was too hard because he could also be dead and, "we don't wanna get into that complicated mess". 2- Maybe it was in the cut content. 3 and most likely - Maybe it had something to do with Scorpio taking control FROM Arcann and then passing Vaylin the throne. Remember that Scorpio gave the fleet free will like her, and then Vaylin reprogrammed them after that so the throne was bound to her, until she died (body did at the very least). When Vaylin reprogramed the fleet, I just assumed it went into the same state it was in before Arcann lost it, I suppose Vakorian put in the skynet mode for future use at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asmodesu Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 When Vaylin reprogramed the fleet, I just assumed it went into the same state it was in before Arcann lost it, I suppose Vakorian put in the skynet mode for future use at some point. I interpreted the Iokath droid's explanation as the fleet being returned to default programming, so from around the time Valkorion found the fleet I assumed, so it would have just forgotten Arcann. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 I interpreted the Iokath droid's explanation as the fleet being returned to default programming, so from around the time Valkorion found the fleet I assumed, so it would have just forgotten Arcann. Or before he found the fleet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asmodesu Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 Or before he found the fleet? yeah, makes sense if Vaylin's loss of control causes it to revert yet again to default programming and go try and destroy all the civilization capitals. Nasty thing, I get the feeling current arc is to get rid of the fleet, personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 yeah, makes sense if Vaylin's loss of control causes it to revert yet again to default programming and go try and destroy all the civilization capitals. Nasty thing, I get the feeling current arc is to get rid of the fleet, personally. That's going to be hard to explain on top of everything else (Theron, Zildrog, Order of Zildrog, Eternal Fleet, Iokath, Alliance) in a single flashpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asmodesu Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 That's going to be hard to explain on top of everything else (Theron, Zildrog, Order of Zildrog, Eternal Fleet, Iokath, Alliance) in a single flashpoint. Yup, welcome to cut down story progression! they gotta rush everything into 5 minutes of story! I have no clue how they're going to spin this around. I think they added too much and then hinted at an entirely opposite future then what the story in-game presents. I expected going up against the Order after finishing the Theron chase, but they said rep vs imp and that doesn't make sense with the galactic resources issue the game keeps harping at in-story. *ponders* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakRoanin Posted March 19, 2018 Author Share Posted March 19, 2018 Elara even did the research report stuff for Jace on the Commander, she knew very well you were alive, well before you meet again. Just to make it worse. I KNOW! It just makes me so mad that I can't have a talk about it. I don't want a divorce, I just want to say "If it had been you I would've resigned and searched the universe for you. Do I mean that much to you?" Sorry for hijacking but I built this little palace so I can do what I want! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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