What do people think of the dumbed down gameplay?

[ivanhedgehog]

Story missions/ combat doesnt teach anyone to be anything, but it was a slog the average moron couldnt get through, so in the end there was less morons in endgame.

 

Since everyone gets sidetracked by certain words so easily, Im not talking about endgame raiding, Im just talking about how back when you had to actually think your way through missions (even just a little bit i.e. 'use your ship to travel to X') less made their way to the end.

 

I am sure the EA stockholders want to see their games turned into mensa exams, really. This is a business, excluding large numbers of customers just so the elitists can feel better about themselvs is a great business model.

[TrixxieTriss]

I really don't get all the angst about a game designed to appeal to a broad range of players being simple at the base level to play and progress on. It's not that hard to seek and pursue more challenging content in an MMO, without the need to make it steep and difficult for the more novice players who like the IP but are not veteran expert leet MMO players.

 

I’ve no problem with them making the game accessible for more people. But it would have been better to just add an “easy” mode for players to select instead of dumbing the whole game down for people who aren’t skilled enough to play the game as it was originally designed.

 

The people who are complaining about how easy it is, will still remember what the difficulty lvl was for the first 3 years. For all of us who played back then, we can see just how dumbed down the game has become and we don’t like it. We started playing the game and stayed all those years because it was fun and challenging. Back then, you needed to gear properly as you lvl’d, you had to do planet quests to lvl, you needed people to group to do heroics, you couldn’t do most FPs solo, etc.

 

There was plenty of activity at different difficulty lvls back then in the vanilla game. Now there is no difficulty in the vanilla part of the game. Which is arguably the best part of the game. The only challenging content still left in this game for veteran players is NiM Ops or Ranked pvp.

 

They added a hard mode for the end game content stories, but dumbed down the vanilla game, what they should have done IMO is make all the end game stories the same difficulty as hard mode is and inline with how the difficulty lvl “used” to be in the original vanilla game. Then instead of making a hard mode for only the end game, they could have made an easy mode / story mode for the whole game by adding higher bolstered stats if you elected to do easy mode. That way they wouldn’t have dumbed down the whole game and it would have been a win-win for everyone.

[DWho]

I’ve no problem with them making the game accessible for more people. But it would have been better to just add an “easy” mode for players to select instead of dumbing the whole game down for people who aren’t skilled enough to play the game as it was originally designed.

 

It is much less a dumbing down of the game than not increasing the difficulty as base characters became more powerful. Out leveling content is at the core of the problem (at launch when you out-leveled content it was no challenge as well - most NPCs couldn't even damage you if you were 10 levels above them). At launch, outleveling content was fairly difficult to do but raiders and PVPers (primarily anyway - others got involved in the call for faster leveling later) complained that it took too long for them to get their alts to max level so Bioware increased the leveling rate multiple times at their request. Level Sync tries to compensate by making characters have less health and do less damage but the abilities they have access to because of their level far outstrip what level sync alone can do.

 

The power of gear has also exploded with no way to compensate. There is no way to balance content between a 6 year veteran in max level gear and someone new to MMOs in starter gear. Bolster only works if the differences are relatively small because character power is more about abilities than attributes. Try running one of the newer Flashpoints with a group of lvl 15 characters bolstered to 70 and a group of level 70 characters if you really want to see what the difference is.

 

The truth is that all MMOs end up having "easy" content once they reach a certain age. It becomes not cost effective to keep redesigning the old content to keep up with new gear. All MMOs, including this one have content that is harder that is available (generally the newer the content the harder it is - or it has harder options). You can also choose to make the game as easy or as difficult as you want by your own choices. If you want to cruise around Coruscant at lvl 70 and in full 248s and expect anything there to be a challenge, you are not being realistic.

[TrixxieTriss]

It is much less a dumbing down of the game than not increasing the difficulty as base characters became more powerful. Out leveling content is at the core of the problem (at launch when you out-leveled content it was no challenge as well - most NPCs couldn't even damage you if you were 10 levels above them). At launch, outleveling content was fairly difficult to do but raiders and PVPers (primarily anyway - others got involved in the call for faster leveling later) complained that it took too long for them to get their alts to max level so Bioware increased the leveling rate multiple times at their request. Level Sync tries to compensate by making characters have less health and do less damage but the abilities they have access to because of their level far outstrip what level sync alone can do.

 

The power of gear has also exploded with no way to compensate. There is no way to balance content between a 6 year veteran in max level gear and someone new to MMOs in starter gear. Bolster only works if the differences are relatively small because character power is more about abilities than attributes. Try running one of the newer Flashpoints with a group of lvl 15 characters bolstered to 70 and a group of level 70 characters if you really want to see what the difference is.

 

The truth is that all MMOs end up having "easy" content once they reach a certain age. It becomes not cost effective to keep redesigning the old content to keep up with new gear. All MMOs, including this one have content that is harder that is available (generally the newer the content the harder it is - or it has harder options). You can also choose to make the game as easy or as difficult as you want by your own choices. If you want to cruise around Coruscant at lvl 70 and in full 248s and expect anything there to be a challenge, you are not being realistic.

 

I think the planet sync was supposed to help fix the issue of lower content being to easy, but they set the stats too high, especially for those classes that have more abilities than they would usually have at those lvls.

I don’t think they need to increase the NPC difficulty lvls to make it harder because that would be too big a job. What they should do is set the Bolster/gear lvl for planet sync much lower than it is. This should also happen for companions so that they aren’t as powerful on lower lvl planets. That way it doesn’t affect them at the end when they may need more power.

They could also decrease the stats a bit more the higher you get to take into account the extra abilities.

Gear should also be a factor so that you have to gear up as you lvl up. The planet Bolster shouldn’t increase gear stats, it should only decrease them if they are too high.

All of these things aren’t overly difficult to implement compared to messing around with all NPCs.

[Aeneas_Falco]

The game is way too easy now and it has a negative impact on the game's replayability.

 

Replaying class stories is boring from a gameplay perspective, now that your companion can solo every end boss during it. Once upon a time the end bosses for class stories were more like the Vaylin or Arcann fights in that they actually presented a mild challenge and required you to pay attention to mechanics and use abilities (like interrupts or DCDs) smartly. The fight with the Emperor is a perfect example of that. If you ignored mechanics you got one shot killed.

 

Those fights were fun because of it. Now you can just stand in stupid ignoring DCDs and doing nothing but basic attacks and you'll still win. If you use anything besides basic attacks the fights now literally end in seconds with end bosses like Vitiate, Baras, or Thanaton being globalled. How is that fun? It is also a severe disconnect from the story.

[Aeneas_Falco]

Dumbed down gameplay has created a dumbed down community of dumbed down players. It's fine if you are playing the solo parts of the game, but when you do anything with a group (get in a queue for anything group finder, PvP, or operations) you notice the devastating effect that making this game too easy has had on the player base.

 

But it's too late to put the cat in the bag now. And it's a crying shame for this game and it's future.

 

That's how I feel about it.

 

Bingo.

 

There are players who go into Flashpoints, PVP, or Operations now who don't know how to use their DCDs, interrupts, or mezzes because they never needed them while levelling. If there is one thing class stories got right with gameplay originally it was making all of those things necessary to survive fights and complete the class story. It was training wheels for the more difficult PVE content or PVP.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Aeneas_Falco

[Andryah]

I am sure the EA stockholders want to see their games turned into mensa exams, really. This is a business, excluding large numbers of customers just so the elitists can feel better about themselvs is a great business model.

 

^^ Very much agree.

[PennyAnn]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that they turn SWTOR into a Mensa Exam... or that they should do this to make an Elitist feel better about themselves. They should do it so that people learn how to play the game by actually... playing it.

 

They removed so many mechanics from Story Mode raids that Hard Mode is virtually impossible for a large swath of the community that would love to be able to play that content. If you're going to remove the difficulty from your game to draw in more people to play it, then do so across the board. Those that want a challenge in their gaming won't play here anymore, but they largely already don't anyway.

 

The problem is that only some parts of the game have been "dumbed down" or made easier, and that means there are parts that require ability, skill, knowledge of class, gear, and some heads up play. When 99% of the rest of the game doesn't come close to preparing you for any of that... then you've frustrated the people who played the game when it was still difficult enough that you were forced to learn more about your class and your abilities to succeed, AND you've frustrated the people you've never asked to think twice about the abilities they have in the toolbox because they have never had to before that point.

 

It's not a good situation for anybody, so stop acting like this is just people being snotty about people who refuse to "get good". It's about picking a lane and committing to it. Make the game easy and sacrifice the players who like a challenge, or do a better job of keeping the challenges in tact in the game, but give people a chance to practice and ease into that difficulty instead of throwing them into the deep end of the pool.

 

It's called progression. Most people appreciate it, at all levels of skill.

Edited February 13, 2018 by PennyAnn

[Storm-Cutter]

IMHO it was a stupid move.

 

However, having said that, I do believe in easing people in gently, so for maybe the starter and capital planets, to give them a fairly easy ride, then ramp up after that.

 

They should maybe have given a story-mode option for those that wanted to see the universe and not slog through 1000s of mobs in the process.

 

TBH a slider for 3-4 levels of difficulty would have been the best solution. Level sync is okay-ish but a bit sledgehammer-ish, and they never re-tuned the end-of-level bosses to suit, so they're laughably easy to defeat, making the whole end-story so anticlimactic.

 

For my part, it was never that hard, tedious a bit in places, but first playthrough always has excitement to offset the long slog of going up levels.

 

Character tokens for max levels should have had several other characters previously leveled as a pre-requisite.

[TrixxieTriss]

#spamforcestormtolevel

 

I was playing my Guardian against Imps yesterday and I kept coming up against the same people. One Sorc just tried to spam force storm all match, even in 1v1 combat. Not surprisingly, I kept owning him ever match.

Then we got a Yavin match together and he said in chat he was glad he would have to face me this game. I helpfully pointed out that he shouldnt spam force storm on a solo player.

He actually thanked me and asked what he should be doing because he said he’d never needed to use any other attack as he lvld to 70

Edited February 13, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[SteveTheCynic]

He actually thanked me and asked what he should be doing because he said he’d never needed to use any other attack as he lvld to 70

There's hope for him, at least. He wants to learn, and he knows the most important thing: he doesn't know everything.

[Andryah]

However, having said that, I do believe in easing people in gently, so for maybe the starter and capital planets, to give them a fairly easy ride, then ramp up after that.

 

Some MMOs in the past have tried this approach. Players are not stupid.... they see the steep wall that they hit after leaving the "early levels", get frustrated, and leave.

 

Your suggestion only works in grinder MMOs.. where you want to hook the player just enough to encourage them to flatten their face on the grind wall that pops up suddenly. It works in Asia mind you... but it does not work well with western audiences (who largely loathe endless mind numbing leveling by grinding).

 

There is NO perfect formula that will serve and please the full range of players that touch MMOs. Even today.. after the great retooling 4.0 brought us... people STILL create threads complaining that the game, or parts of it, are too hard. And others (mostly veteran MMO players) complain that it was never hard enough.. and is now way way too easy. There is no pleasing everyone.. and any good MMO studio knows this and therefore chooses a deliberate path that they feel servers their broadest audience base, and for a studio like Bioware... that will NEVER be "difficulty focused" to the hardcore end of the player base.

[ivanhedgehog]

Bingo.

 

There are players who go into Flashpoints, PVP, or Operations now who don't know how to use their DCDs, interrupts, or mezzes because they never needed them while levelling. If there is one thing class stories got right with gameplay originally it was making all of those things necessary to survive fights and complete the class story. It was training wheels for the more difficult PVE content or PVP.

 

NO, leveling is not basic training for ops or pvp. you dont even get a bunch of the powers on your rotation until later in leveling. Leveling is not there to provide you with prospective raiders, it is there to tell a story. This is a story based mmo after all is said and done. I am a raider and I understand this.People that want to learn their classes will, those that arent interested in that wont. You can make the leveling part of the game harder for yourself if you wish, you arent allowed to make it harder for others, which is what you really want.

[ZionHalcyon]

I disagree. Here's why...

 

Last night I ran 16 Xeno and the Ilum WB's multiple times. We had players drop in and drop out as they needed to go to other things, replacing them and including others was easy...and making people feel included is GOOD for the game. Allowing me to instantly include other people in group activities only solidifies their sense of 'community' and value imo. Waiting for someone to finish an Op before we summon a group allows that player to do more things than he otherwise would have been able to.

 

You're free to dislike it, but I love it because I believe it has allowed more people to do more things than anything else they've added to this game.

 

I will Echo that. Video games are meant to be played. Prior to level sync, ginormous chunks of content that millions of dollars were poured into were sitting around unused because people were way past the level to do them.

 

Level sync open up the entire game again.

[ZionHalcyon]

NO, leveling is not basic training for ops or pvp. you dont even get a bunch of the powers on your rotation until later in leveling. Leveling is not there to provide you with prospective raiders, it is there to tell a story. This is a story based mmo after all is said and done. I am a raider and I understand this.People that want to learn their classes will, those that arent interested in that wont. You can make the leveling part of the game harder for yourself if you wish, you arent allowed to make it harder for others, which is what you really want.

 

Agreed. I have learned that many of those who like to complain about how bad other players are, are not really that good themselves.

 

I just recently started dabbling in PvP in order to collect unassembled parts. I have been on teams where I've been told I suck and not to Queue. I have also been on teams where people are supportive and talk through strategy between rounds.

 

I have had it where in one match, I've gotten the rude person who tells me how bad I am, and then in the next match I am part of the opposite team and we totally take apart the person who was smack talking.

 

The issue isn't that the game doesn't teach people how to PVP, or run operations or any of that. It never did. The problem is lazy people who don't want to take the time to teach.

 

Raiding is my thing. I learned by someone show me the ropes. And I have had someone in a PVP match recently tell me after a failed first round that I actually was doing really well but gave me some pointers on disrupting the Healer. Based on his input, we proceeded to win the next two rounds and win the match.

 

The game needs more teachers, and less people ************ about players not being taught.

Edited February 13, 2018 by ZionHalcyon

[Monumenta]

I am sure the EA stockholders want to see their games turned into mensa exams, really. This is a business, excluding large numbers of customers just so the elitists can feel better about themselvs is a great business model.

 

considering the game had like a million+ players back then and just hundreds of thousands now, your argument is not well thought out

 

Agreed. I have learned that many of those who like to complain about how bad other players are, are not really that good themselves.

 

I just recently started dabbling in PvP in order to collect unassembled parts. I have been on teams where I've been told I suck and not to Queue. I have also been on teams where people are supportive and talk through strategy between rounds.

 

I have had it where in one match, I've gotten the rude person who tells me how bad I am, and then in the next match I am part of the opposite team and we totally take apart the person who was smack talking.

 

The issue isn't that the game doesn't teach people how to PVP, or run operations or any of that. It never did. The problem is lazy people who don't want to take the time to teach.

 

Raiding is my thing. I learned by someone show me the ropes. And I have had someone in a PVP match recently tell me after a failed first round that I actually was doing really well but gave me some pointers on disrupting the Healer. Based on his input, we proceeded to win the next two rounds and win the match.

 

The game needs more teachers, and less people ************ about players not being taught.

 

I agree with all of your points but those things were always true. My point stands that there were more people playing and better quality players at endgame before the dumbing down.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Monumenta

[kodrac]

considering the game had like a million+ players back then and just hundreds of thousands now, your argument is not well thought out

 

We never had a million plus active players. Even at launch.

[Monumenta]

We never had a million plus active players. Even at launch.

 

whatever the actual numbers I think we can agree there are far less now

 

edit- this is from euro-gamer may 2012 (the first article that poped up from googling 'swtor active subs at launch'- Star Wars: The Old Republic currently has 1.3 million active subscribers - a sizeable drop on the 1.7 million reported in February.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Monumenta

[kodrac]

whatever the actual numbers I think we can agree there are far less now

 

edit- this is from euro-gamer may 2012-Star Wars: The Old Republic currently has 1.3 million active subscribers - a sizeable drop on the 1.7 million reported in February.

 

Well, either way they didn't stay for the not-dumbed-down combat.

[Quraswren]

We never had a million plus active players. Even at launch.

 

Actually I think we have. About 1.7 million at launch.

 

"Perhaps most interestingly to players, however, is the fact that EA has reported sales of more than 2 million units of The Old Republic with about 1.7 million subscribers."

 

https://www.engadget.com/2012/02/01/ea-reveals-swtor-subscription-and-sales-numbers-beats-financial/

 

No matter what someone thinks about the game play at this point. We are no where near 1.7 million subs and I'd consider the game lucky if it had 150K left but I really don't think dumbed down game play is why most left. Apparently bioware doesn't either given the article when they say it was lack of end game.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Quraswren

[Monumenta]

Well, either way they didn't stay for the not-dumbed-down combat.

 

they did though, the sharpest drop offs have all been after 3.0, you really have no information to add here

[kodrac]

they did though, the sharpest drop offs have all been after 3.0, you really have no information to add here

 

They left because there was no end game content. It had nothing to do with the combat. Dumb or otherwise.

[Monumenta]

They left because there was no end game content. It had nothing to do with the combat. Dumb or otherwise.

 

you seem fixated on combat when there were many more aspects of the game dumbed down but your opinion is noted and as I said it doesnt change my earlier point in the least

[TUXs]

They left because there was no end game content. It had nothing to do with the combat. Dumb or otherwise.

Exactly right. They didn't quit because leveling was too easy, they quit because once they leveled, there was nothing much to do.

[kodrac]

you seem fixated on combat when there were many more aspects of the game dumbed down but your opinion is noted and as I said it doesnt change my earlier point in the least

 

Actually it does. Dumbed down anything (combat or whatnot) isn't the reason for the drop off in subs. We haven't gotten anything end game related since 3.0 up until recently.