Removing Free To Play?

[Costello]

While I'm a little skeptical of anyone claiming to spend 200 to 400 dollars a month on cosmetic CM stuff without a screen shot to back it up cause there just doesn't seem to be enough in the CM to justify that, at least not month in month out. If it is the case then its the perfect reason for BW to keep FTP.

 

Free to play saved this game because it allowed them to double dip by selling cosmetic gear on top of the subscription. They have already said that the majority of CM sales are to subscribers, if you don't want to pay 15 bucks to get full access, playing 10 bucks to get a cosmetic outfit is a little unlikely. So it was less ftp and more CM.

 

If we take the industry standard of WOW for a subscriber only game (after level 20 anyway) the cosmetic shop is tiny compared to tor. While the number of titles, mounts, gear and general cosmetic that can be earned in game is far larger and somewhat more impressive. So if tor got rid of free to play then there would likely be a question as to why so much focus was on the CM and not on the subscription game.

 

As it is we all know the focus is on the CM with an update every week, while it can be months between any content update its excused because its free to play. Its accepted that free to play makes its money from in game real money sales. Try that with a buy to play game like BF2 and you see the response. If BF2 seemed back imagine you pay 15 bucks a month and on top you are expected to buy from the in game store. Sure its no different now but the perception is well the market is cause its free to play.

[merovejec]

I don't share your optimism I'm afraid. There are still a good number of F2P players and your assumption that they don't spend any or much money on the cartel market is also just that...an assumption. Some people care about cosmetics but not endgame.

 

I fear that the population has become so small now that cutting out F2P entirely could be a problem for the population and feel of the servers. I don't see it as a viable idea to cut it out cause it would harm this game too much at this stage.

 

They could've done things a few years ago but that ship has sailed I fear.

 

Again, we talk about Preffs then, not F2P as long as they spend over 5,- bucks they arent F2P anymore. Do you see the difference? They cant be F2P and spend money

[merovejec]

Recently started playing, after about 2 years break. I got through all the content released in the past 2 years in 2 weeks of moderate play. In 2+ years all they managed to release is 1 universal storyline much shorter than any of the original class stories, few flashpoints and 2 raid bosses. 2 raid bosses in over 2 years!

 

Remind me now what exactly are we subscribing for?

 

Yes, that is the thing which everyone has been disccusing for the past years/monhts. There is no point to be sub, I mean, the only advantage you get now is gear, Solo ranked and Operation access. Sure there are the credit limits etc, but you can live with that.

 

You can sub for a month, buy all possible unlocks and go Preff and you are fine. You can do all Operations, get all achievements and you dont have to go back again. You have done that content and will just wait for more. Like you said, come back in 1 or 2 years and do it all again in 1 month and be done. It is a way to go.

 

My toons are all 248, I have 100% achievements besides Yavin WZ and Copero MM, I can finish that without sub, so i dont need to pay it, but I do. You have that part of the population that thinks they help the game with the sub although I know that sub is only a minor portion in the profits, but you have a good feeling from it. So in the end its about the players, I can perfectly imagine playing this game without sub, but its an MMO and meant to be played with friends. If the friends want to raid, I have to sub otherwise I can only do FPS or GSF with them. So in general its up to the player based on what he wants in the game.

[merovejec]

In the grand scheme F2P people add more to the game than they remove. Yes, they have server access, but that's about it. If they're removed then BW loses the potential for their subs.

 

I think that the F2P system is simply too generous and should be limited like in WoW to level 20 or so, then you have to sub or get lost. The first levels are more than enough for the player to get an impression of the game, you will finish your core world, get to capitol world, witness conversations, one Flashpoint, the fleet, can que for GSF, WZ, thats more than enough to test the game. This would make the sub process faster as the person would like to continue the story rather than finish the whole thing!!

 

You have to realize that a person can simply make an account, download game and play the whole 1-50 class story! They have full access to the best part of the game! Lets just look at it from the Achievements point of view, F2P are able to do Location achievements, FPS achievements, event achievements, GSF achievements, I would guess way more than half of the achievements in the game! Isnt that too much? I think this is where Bioware is losing money and should restrict it more.

 

I dont care about Preffs, those seem to be fine as you said, but F2P needs limits. You can litteraly play KOTOR 3 if you want without paying a cent!

[ceryxp]

I think that the F2P system is simply too generous and should be limited like in WoW to level 20 or so, then you have to sub or get lost. The first levels are more than enough for the player to get an impression of the game, you will finish your core world, get to capitol world, witness conversations, one Flashpoint, the fleet, can que for GSF, WZ, thats more than enough to test the game. This would make the sub process faster as the person would like to continue the story rather than finish the whole thing!!

 

You have to realize that a person can simply make an account, download game and play the whole 1-50 class story! They have full access to the best part of the game! Lets just look at it from the Achievements point of view, F2P are able to do Location achievements, FPS achievements, event achievements, GSF achievements, I would guess way more than half of the achievements in the game! Isnt that too much? I think this is where Bioware is losing money and should restrict it more.

 

I dont care about Preffs, those seem to be fine as you said, but F2P needs limits. You can litteraly play KOTOR 3 if you want without paying a cent!

 

I mostly agree, although I don't think a level cap on F2P alone would work. First, level is irrelevant to GSF and even F2P have unrestricted access to GSF. Second, while non-subs have a restriction on the number of WZ's they can do each week there are ways around that. Without additional changes, I think a F2P level cap would only encourage some people to play for free. It's true that a fresh F2P account can basically play KotOR 3 for free, but I don't think many Sub's really understand what this game is like to play as F2P. Yes, it's possible, but there are a lot of restrictions that make it very...difficult.

 

With regard to Pref, and I say this as someone who is Pref as often as Sub, I want more restrictions on Pref accounts but more unlocks in the CM. The most successful microtransaction F2P models allow for a broader a la carte, pay for what you want system. There was some of that, there still is, but many options were removed with GC. I think those should be returned, more unlocks should be added to the CM, and fresh Pref accounts should have more restrictions to encourage them to purchase more unlocks. But that's me and I like an a la carte model. But, I highly doubt BW is going to add restrictions. I also doubt they're going to add more account unlocks. They just don't have a successful F2P model.

[merovejec]

I don't think many Sub's really understand what this game is like to play as F2P. Yes, it's possible, but there are a lot of restrictions that make it very...difficult.

 

Well true, not many do, but I played as F2P for a year and I have to say it was fine. The only thing you need in such a case is enough time for the game. The main issue is traveling, but there are ways around like Being in a guild with a Guild shipt and having a stronghold, that makes traveling easier.

[Galahard]

I know where the OP is coming from, although I'm not disclosing how much I spend on the CM, I'm well below his claimed amount, but I'm pretty sure it's above average.

 

Having said that, as a player, who subbed, then played as preferred, is away from the game about 3-4 month each year and sub and buy CC rest of the months, I need to say that I don't think BW can or should restrict F2P at this time.

The thing is that this game is played in many styles and from all walks of life, from people like the OP, who can afford to pay more, to people who cannot afford to pay even a monthly sub.

At this time, I wouldn't try to exclude any players who want to play this game, as it needs every player that it can get, even as a F2P, because if nothing else, they can provide an opportunity to play with those who are pref or sub in groups.

 

I think what I am getting at is restricting more or kicking the F2P is not the way for this shrinking game, I think the way would be to increase sub rewards. I don't know what they could be, but at this time, it's very little you get for a sub and as some people already pointed out, it's not worth subbing to a game that provides so little new content each month.

 

Also, we have no idea about the proportion of the F2P compared to pref and sub.

Based on my experience, being a guild master in a small guild, the F2P ratio in our guild is not more than 10-20% of the population.

Now I have no idea how representative that is, but getting rid of 10-20% of the players wouldn't do any good to the game that is shrinking already too much.

 

Just increase the sub rewards or provide more sub only content, so that people will feel that they need to sub.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Galahard

[Khelekin]

I find great value in my monthly sub, and still continue to spend between $200-$400 additional each month at the CM.

 

And thats why we get regular updates to CM but not the game

Edited January 16, 2018 by Khelekin

[Bladeofhonour]

F2P was brought in back in 2012 to save the game from sinking like the Titanic. Really I am not exaggerating, the situation of the game was quite dire and one of the slogans that took hold was that this game wasn't worth the sub. People basically said they'd play it if they didn't have to pay for it and that Bioware needed to improve the game a lot before it became worth a sub to them.

 

So Bioware did two rounds of server merges in a short time span, introduced F2P and the Cartel Market. It kept the game alive. However, I see it as a necessary evil that I much prefer would've never been needed. Also Bioware advertises the game as an F2P game but it isn't. It's a rather extended trial but the game is hardly F2P. It's still a sub game and F2P do not get all the content. A true F2P account that is created today will take you to level 50 and that's it. If you sub and get all content and unsub, you do no longer have access to endgame.

 

So as much as I would like F2P to be removed, because it's got certain advantages, I do not think that it's a wise move for a game that barely has enough players to warrant 5 servers worldwide.

 

I think it's clear that the combination of GC and making endgame sub only (which it wasn't before when you had ops and warzone passes) sealed the need to do the server merges we just had a couple of months ago.

 

So does the idea of a sub only game appeal to me? Yes.

Do I believe this game will die the moment they remove F2P? Also yes.

 

A necessary evil therefore.

 

Free to play was suggested by game ruining guys back in 2012 to 2015. A lot of players had quitted after free to play because it went cheap. I have got a break for my own to again. after 3? Moths of playing the game Because this cheap, monthly, if even mini content is a joke for a paying player, who is here since 2012 with a break short after free to play(2014 or so) until some months ago. Between this i only was acive 1 or 2x a month. No Subscription.

But if They believe in free to play players 1st then it is ok. I wont disturb them with my wishes for the quality i had payed for.

 

/edit: 1st buying the game then getting told to buy this content again and pay monthly for it is a joke/ripp off for its self.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Bladeofhonour

[merovejec]

And thats why we get regular updates to CM but not the game.

 

You really dont wanna know how much I spent on the game already and believe me, I keep very good track of it. Still, what you said is very questionable. There was this video about "death of swtor" where the person did have a biased look at the game, as he was a SWG fan, but he did good research from EA financials. There he proved that only around 20% of the games income was generated by subscriptions (resulting in around 150k subscribers) and the rest of the 80% was from microtransactions aka CM.

 

So the question remains, no game or cartel market updates.

[Bladeofhonour]

You really dont wanna know how much I spent on the game already and believe me, I keep very good track of it. Still, what you said is very questionable. There was this video about "death of swtor" where the person did have a biased look at the game, as he was a SWG fan, but he did good research from EA financials. There he proved that only around 20% of the games income was generated by subscriptions (resulting in around 150k subscribers) and the rest of the 80% was from microtransactions aka CM.

 

So the question remains, no game or cartel market updates.

 

This times are over. Peoples are not so stupid to supporting gambling at loot boxes again. The most income is from merchandise, movies, franchises, selling and sbscriptions. This video is just another fake.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Bladeofhonour

[merovejec]

This times are over. Peoples are not so stupid to supporting gambling at loot boxes again. The most income is from merchandise, movies, franchises, selling and sbscriptions. This video is just another fake.

 

Yes of course, as I said I wasted a huge amount on the game but that was in the past, I havent spend any more than subscription for over 2 years because of the direction the game is going.

 

But people will still keep on spending, there has been an influx of new players since the new movies launched and those ppl spend money cause its their first time in game so the game lives of the "first time spenders" now rather than longterm subs. Those are just my thoughts but still, they seem real. People want to mainly turn real money into game credits via Cartel Market and it works due to many credit exploits in the game.

 

So again, yes, those times are over, MMOs are not profitable anymore if they are not WoW or really invest into the game.

Edited January 16, 2018 by merovejec

[TalonMacLeod]

Again, in what way?

 

I don't have a great deal to add to this discussion since I am strictly a solo player, though I do sub and I spend monthly on the CM.

 

But I think the F2P contingent of the playerbase is at least needed as an opening into the game; a recruitment pool for the P2P population.

 

Giving people the option to play for free grants initial access to the game.

If you lock access to the game behind a paywall, then you're going to instantly turn away potential players, without having a chance to entice them to stay and pay. Without that option, the size of your playerbase is going to stagnate.

[Pietrastor]

As if removing F2P/Preferred from endgame didn't fuel the decrease of activity in the game heavily enough since 5.0, which is very much apparent despite new Ops being actually released.

 

At this stage, 7th year in, they should be easing up F2P/Pref restrictions to get people back in, not the other way around.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Pietrastor

[Holocron]

I say remove free to play and preferred all together! It's obviously a failed experiment, and those players contribute virtually nothing to the game. Can't afford to play, well then you can't afford to play. People who can't afford $15 bucks month certainly don't have the money to buy anything on the cartel market, especially with the ever increasing prices.

 

FTP has been a blight from day one, and those players in my opinion, feel even more entitled to get everything for nothing, so thank God they are not allowed to post in the forums, cause it would be a real ****-storm.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Holocron

[Thaladan]

PvP community saved this game before f2p. we were the last community to hope swtor to continue paying a sub after all pve boyz whinners and leavers in first year.

 

history restored, i would see a game sub only or with sub removed, but not this system.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Thaladan

[TUXs]

As for removing F2P, that hasn't been a viable MMO option for over a decade now. People have too many games to choose from, and not only do you have to compete with other MMO's, you have to compete with other games as well. A fun and inviting F2P experience is essential to the longevity of an MMO.

Do you think SWTOR is doing that? Creating a fun and interesting experience for F2P? I agree that they have to compete, and I like to think they are, for a new player at least...just wondering what you think of the F2P we have here.

 

I don't have an opinion either way...I've been subbed since launch, so I don't know what a F2P player experiences...

[BoySaber]

After reading a few sarcasm threads, and even a few troll threads, it occurs to me that people are looking to get more and more handed to them as preferred players, but not really willing to make any concessions in the other direction. As a sub, I am not looking for a concession either way. I find great value in my monthly sub, and still continue to spend between $200-$400 additional each month at the CM.

 

So, I have to wonder, how vested are players who are getting everything for free and still complaining about it, and demanding more? Would we improve the quality of the players we interact with if "Free" were not an option? If players had to pay to play, would they spend more time playing and less time trolling/whining/complaining? Sometimes being truly serious about something only comes with being invested in said item. When there is no initial investment, there is really nothing to lose.

 

Just some late night ramblings. Had me curious was all.

 

After reading a few sarcasm threads, and even a few troll threads, it occurs to me that people are looking to get more and more handed to them as preferred players, but not really willing to make any concessions in the other direction. As a sub, I am not looking for a concession either way. I find great value in my monthly sub, and still continue to spend between $200-$400 additional each month at the CM.

 

So, I have to wonder, how vested are players who are getting everything for free and still complaining about it, and demanding more? Would we improve the quality of the players we interact with if "Free" were not an option? If players had to pay to play, would they spend more time playing and less time trolling/whining/complaining? Sometimes being truly serious about something only comes with being invested in said item. When there is no initial investment, there is really nothing to lose.

 

Just some late night ramblings. Had me curious was all.

 

SWtOR the CM gamble is now the only thing you have left to quit. Should not be a challenge compared to other bad stuff you had going on. And while commendable that you got here where you are after all that, by analysing your statements there is a very good reason why swtor value is at that level to you.

 

What you find to be a great value some may find a lesser value or even worthless. Swtor does not have a F2P model, players do not get everything for free. It's a big trial used to market the game as a F2P and obviously effective since people believe it while the facts are obvious in the game for every player who actually played in all 3 account classes. Warframe is a F2P game. Swtor is not. If you learn the difference between the two you will understand. I am fan of both games and spent time and investment in both and swtor is so not a F2P game. Swtor was a test ground for EA Star Wars Battlefront 2:

 

With 5.0 Swtor attempted to get back to "sub" only, removed weekly passes, and introduced pay to do RNG stats gear boxes through the Galactic Command and they shoot themselves with it (With already existing CM cosmetic gear gamble). Entire year spent resources on tweaking and editing Galactic Command and adding CXP events to somehow keep players around, because sub only was killing the game again, as it did in 2012, they do not learn from their past mistakes, just like SW BF2 did not learn from this, so they attempted with same system and they shoot themselves with it too. This should be a good example of why the game does not have same high value to you compared to other players. Swtor performs business that stinks to the addictions you quit, thus it is worth all the money to you. But if the game wants to get money from other players, it needs to target their addictions too (my personal would be expansion that holds content for everyone, and that would include story, wz map, gsf map, fp, ops, planet with dailies and a new event.)

 

And while sub only game today is a difficult to pull off it is not impossible. I would pay for a sub only game if it offered revolutionary elements and aspects of the game not found in other games, or if they offered tons of fun. And while FF14 is not close to my personal taste, they are doing a good work. I am not familiar enough with that game to know whats going on in depths, but they have to expand and add servers for more players to fit, while swtor is merging and shrinking to a smaller and smaller community. And F2P would need to exist in it first place to be considered for removal. It is an extended version of trial with goal to let players try game for free, and each one of them could become subsriber. If we are talking about removing the trial from the game, then, with EaSwtor's reputation, it would mean death to the game.

Edited January 16, 2018 by BoySaber

[Shivax]

Let's remove f2p, lets kill the game today!

 

Malgus feels less populated then tre was...

 

KILL THE GAME!

[Eli_Porter]

Do you think SWTOR is doing that? Creating a fun and interesting experience for F2P? I agree that they have to compete, and I like to think they are, for a new player at least...just wondering what you think of the F2P we have here.

 

I don't have an opinion either way...I've been subbed since launch, so I don't know what a F2P player experiences...

 

I think it can definitely be better. Most of the F2P restrictions are unnecessary and turn away a lot of new players (myself included when i first tried this game).

Edited January 16, 2018 by Eli_Porter

[Rheshalea]

I think that the F2P system is simply too generous and should be limited like in WoW to level 20 or so, then you have to sub or get lost. The first levels are more than enough for the player to get an impression of the game, you will finish your core world, get to capitol world, witness conversations, one Flashpoint, the fleet, can que for GSF, WZ, thats more than enough to test the game. This would make the sub process faster as the person would like to continue the story rather than finish the whole thing!!

 

You have to realize that a person can simply make an account, download game and play the whole 1-50 class story! They have full access to the best part of the game! Lets just look at it from the Achievements point of view, F2P are able to do Location achievements, FPS achievements, event achievements, GSF achievements, I would guess way more than half of the achievements in the game! Isnt that too much? I think this is where Bioware is losing money and should restrict it more.

 

I dont care about Preffs, those seem to be fine as you said, but F2P needs limits. You can litteraly play KOTOR 3 if you want without paying a cent!

 

F2P should be changed, not removed. It should become a proper trial version, that would give people a proper taste of the game but leave them on a cliffhanger near the end of each class story's first chapter. Want to know if/how you solve this-and-that situation? Pay up.

As is, F2P has a lot of Quality of Life restrictions that are more off-putting than anything else. It focuses on the completely wrong thing; making the player's play-through miserable, while still giving away the best part of the game, when what it should do is make them want to pay. Make them invested emotionally in the game, make them curious about what happens next.

 

Preferred is a different kettle of fish and much more difficult to pin down/change to make subscribing the most desirable thing for players to do. Ops passes and the other weekly passes should be brought back ASAP, but as Bind to Account/Legacy items. A Command-pass should be introduced, which would include unlocking all available gear while active. These passes should be affordable, but close enough in price to a 1-month sub for it not to make much difference.

Preferred should come in different tiers. If you become Pref because of a one-time 5-dollar Cartel Coin purchase, congrats, you get to play all of Vanilla, with 8 slots. Have fun. You pay 10 dollars worth of CCs? Okay, you get Vanilla, Ilum, Makeb. Maybe some other concessions to the current system, for example maybe you get to have 500.000 credits to use at once instead of 350.000.

Sub for a month, you get access to all current content and another concession.

But what if you've been subbed for years? Or like OP, you've both been subbed and used a lot of money on CC? You're far, far from a 5-dollar Pref, and that should show somehow.

As I said, Preferred is a very tricky system and would need a much better overhaul than I can figure out.

 

But all this raises the question why the Hoth so many of us still sub? Access to all our characters, sure, or at least we had that before the mergers. Access to OPs and unlimited WZs and stuff, good. Access to all our ingame credits, some CCs every month (but not enough to buy anything cool unless you save up for months or buy more with real money or have a bunch of referrals who also sub) and the right to speak our minds on the forum. And best of all, we get to farm Command XP.

 

Subscribing and keeping the sub running needs to be more desirable. Maybe Pref should get access to the CXP gear farm too, but Subs would get a boost to both the rate of earning CXP and to drop chances of the really good gear? Maybe those rates could grow depending on how long you've been subbed?

Maybe Subs should get (like in GW2) daily log-in presents? Other cool bonuses?

As is, for someone like me who is a solo player, I sub because I want to be able to play any of my characters, and to have access to all my ingame money. I very rarely do WZs and I never do Ops or other group content. Aaaand I farm CXP, which I honestly don't know if it's a perk or a penalty.

[DawnAskham]

After reading a few sarcasm threads, and even a few troll threads, it occurs to me that people are looking to get more and more handed to them as preferred players, but not really willing to make any concessions in the other direction. As a sub, I am not looking for a concession either way. I find great value in my monthly sub, and still continue to spend between $200-$400 additional each month at the CM.

 

So, I have to wonder, how vested are players who are getting everything for free and still complaining about it, and demanding more? Would we improve the quality of the players we interact with if "Free" were not an option? If players had to pay to play, would they spend more time playing and less time trolling/whining/complaining? Sometimes being truly serious about something only comes with being invested in said item. When there is no initial investment, there is really nothing to lose.

 

Just some late night ramblings. Had me curious was all.

 

The game was designed as pay to play, launched pay to play, and only because of some really bad decisions made way back in development (core systems / game engine 'cough, cough'), nearly crashed and burned as pay to play.

 

They could go back to pay to play, and keep taking your money each month, but would you still find it of value to toss hundreds of dollars at EA each month for little to no new content and empty servers?

Edited January 16, 2018 by DawnAskham

[RudeDog]

A fun and inviting F2P experience is essential to the longevity of an MMO.

 

WOW and FFXIV disagree...

[Eli_Porter]

WOW and FFXIV disagree...

 

They don't have a premium option, but their F2P (Starter Edition / Trial) does a much better job of introducing players into the game without the arbitrary restrictions and mindless leveling.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Eli_Porter

[Rheshalea]

They don't have a premium option, but their F2P (Starter Edition / Trial) does a much better job of introducing players into the game without the arbitrary restrictions and mindless leveling.

 

This.

As far as I remember, WoW's trial is basically anything you want to do, but you can't go above level 20 and you can't talk/trade with others. It's a proper trial, but doesn't work for spammers/gold sellers since they can't communicate with others (unless /say works, or whispers).

Compared to SWTOR, it's a much, much better solution than giving away the best part of the game, the vanilla stories, while at the same time making it way more difficult to enjoy yourself by having all those horrible restrictions in place.