Remove MATs for Losing Teams, Double for Winners

[TrixxieTriss]

Only in the context of the mats:

The problem with this is that in ranked you get paid for losing. So compared to ops where you have to "win" to get paid farming mats in ranked is faceroll.

 

High end rewards should not be given out for losing.

 

I agree, you shouldn’t get them for losing. But the winner should also not get more than they do now.

[TrixxieTriss]

Sorry, I'm not buying that for a second. If those players, like I stated, didn't have a good amount of raiding experience, no chance.

 

I have to agree with Raansu. An experienced pvper will have an easier time in raid content than raiders coming into pvp.

All you have to do is watch a bunch of instructional youtube videos on the fights.

Sure you may wipe a couple of times while you are getting accustomed to where to stand. But it’s not hard to learn because pve scripted raids come down to one thing, how good is your memory.

Learning a rotation isn’t hard and being able to sustain that dps is easier than having to decide what priority ability you need to setup to use at specific time in pvp. Honestly, I find raids boring now because of how long you have to just run through the same rotation constantly.

I used to do high level raiding in WoW and thought it was difficult because I’d never pvped before, then I started to pvp in WoW and raids got easier, real fast. When I came to swtor six years ago, I started to pvp straight away and didn’t do much raiding at all. My guild at the time was right into raiding and was always asking people to join, but you had to have the right gear, which I didn’t. All I had was my high lvl pvp gear, so they would never even let me try. Then one evening they were desperate and let me come in my pvp gear. I breezed through the content because I’d already learned the raid from YouTube. They were amazed I could do it in my pvp gear. I even showed them some better things to try to make it easier. After that I used to get invited all the time. But I used to decline mostly because it was boring after the first few times.

If you can learn the fight and are skilled enough to play ranked pvp, then Raids aren’t that difficult as long as you’ve got a good memory, which most good pvpers do because we’ve had learn all 8 advanced class abilities and know how to counter them.

Edited December 9, 2017 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

All you have to do for a raid boss is imitate a YouTube video.

 

For PvP you have to know 24 unique builds and be able to counter any of those at any second.

 

PvP is the final stage in player progression.

 

Pretty much this

[Janglor]

Pretty much this

 

If you took any top 1% pvper and committed them to becoming a high-end PvE player for a month straight, they would all manage. I dont think you can say the same for any top 1% PvE raider in a PvP environment. It entails a different level of situational awareness. Basically PvP > PvE and if you arent on Satele Shan you dont matter.

[TrixxieTriss]

If you took any top 1% pvper and committed them to becoming a high-end PvE player for a month straight, they would all manage. I dont think you can say the same for any top 1% PvE raider in a PvP environment. It entails a different level of situational awareness. Basically PvP > PvE and if you arent on Satele Shan you dont matter.

 

You could probably say the top 20% of pvpers would be fine.

Also, I’m not always on SS and I still matter

Edited December 9, 2017 by TrixxieTriss

[Janglor]

You could probably say the top 20% of pvpers would be fine.

Also, I’m not always on SS and I still matter

 

Not always

[Eloi_BG]

All you have to do for a raid boss is imitate a YouTube video.

 

For PvP you have to know 24 unique builds and be able to counter any of those at any second.

 

PvP is the final stage in player progression.

 

This is so biased it's sad.

 

All you have to do to clear all NiM ops is learn 26 unique bosses and how to adapt to stuff at any second.

 

All you have to do to perform in ranked is learn 24 unique builds and how to counter any of those at any second.

 

It seems that some view NiM ops as capped, which is kinda true. Like you can clear it without being the best player around (tho you gotta be pretty good), while in PVP you can't really beat the best players if you aren't part of the best players. However, if you want to push yourself in PVE you can, by 7 manning/trying to get the best numbers/doing w/e stupid stuff you want to make stuff harder and beat it. In PVP, how many matches will you have that actually require you to play perfectly to win. It doesn't happen that much. Like in most matches (even at the highest level) you can get away with a small error. You sometimes play matches where a small error kills you or a teammate, you sometimes do a boss where a small error kill you or a teammate. Both settings can be hard, one is just more controlled than the other (as in it's easier to tune the challenge you want to have).

 

Also:

If you took any top 1% pvper and committed them to becoming a high-end PvE player for a month straight, they would all manage. I dont think you can say the same for any top 1% PvE raider in a PvP environment.

 

A simple look at the leaderboards proves you wrong. Quite a few members of the top 1% PVE community are in the top with only a few matches. They compete with the best without even being committed to it. I am 100% sure that if they formed a team and worked hard for 1 month they'd be high end PVP-players.

[Alssaran]

Almost every MMO I've played that had a good pvp population the pvpers were clearing the harder pve content faster than the dedicated pver's.

 

Log into WoW or FFXIV and tell me that the PvE content on the hardest difficulty/setting is cleared by PvP players faster than the people who are used to progressing in PvE content and know the tricks. It doesn't happen. No, I don't care whether this is "your experience" or "your opinion": It's not happening. It's PvP players uptalking their skill over PvE players.

 

I have done extensive heroic/progressive raiding in WoW during early Legion and in most of WotLK and BC. There was never a situation where a good PvP player jumped into our raid and outperformed the good PvE players in a heartbeat. Being used to your class obviously gives you an advantage at learning the fights, but there was never a situation where PvP players cleared content in WoW faster than dedicated PvE players. I'd even go as far as to say that with how unforgiving the last heroic/mythic tier was in the Tomb of Sargeras, the chance of a PvP player simply clearing it were almost nonexistant, let alone clearing it faster than the dedicated guilds.

 

The amount of hyperbole in this thread shows that tons of high-end PvP players rarely play PvE in any capacity on a NiM/progression level. The simple issue is that it's not "as easy as imitating a video." Just as you claim you have to know 24 builds and adjust to them in a second, you have to know tons of different mechanics and adjust yourself to them fairly quickly. It's nice that you know the boss does some AoE field, but that's completely meaningless if you can't focus on your DPS, your cooldowns, your procs and constantly keep an eye out for the two mechanics that are going on at any given point.

 

We don't need to argue that both playing progressive raiding and playing high-end PvP both take a good amount of skills, but none of those skills trump above the other. They are highly situational. PvP skills aren't inherently better than PvE skills, and being good in those skills doesn't translate to being able to stomp PvE players who need "naturally inferior skills." It's just the usual PvP player grandstanding over "those PvE scrubs who hit a computer enemy all day."

 

I could support them removing them for losing teams, but not doubling for winners.

 

I respect your opinion Trixxie, but I completely disagree. Entirely.

 

Giving out materials to winning teams and not rewarding losing teams in any form other than just a bit of GCXP and a few credits, which let's be honest here are mostly peanuts these days, will just encourage people not to queue anymore. There's a simple reason for that: The people who have been playing long will establish a monopoly on the new materials and will just farm the silver/bronze players into oblivion. So one or two exceptionally good teams, which there are on any server even with the flawed ranking system as it is, will just farm people into oblivion. Very soon, the supply of new players in ranked will dry up again, and granked is back at a spot where you have three or four teams competing, but farming incredible amounts of credits for basically lacking any kind of competition.

 

We can certainly have a discussion about the quantity of rewards: Should the weekly reward 5 of the expensive mats, or 4-5 of the half priced datacores? Should it be more like 2-3 with no daily rewards? Should the rewards be entirely switched from Charged Matter items to the datacores?

 

But taking out any kind of incentive for lower end players to do ranked would defeat the point of trying to get more people into granked. If one or two guilds with two or three good teams could simply put a monopoly on the materials by farming at any given time, then we're hurting the system even more badly than now.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Alssaran

[Foambreaker]

This is so biased it's sad.

 

All you have to do to clear all NiM ops is learn 26 unique bosses and how to adapt to stuff at any second.

 

All you have to do to perform in ranked is learn 24 unique builds and how to counter any of those at any second.

 

It seems that some view NiM ops as capped, which is kinda true. Like you can clear it without being the best player around (tho you gotta be pretty good), while in PVP you can't really beat the best players if you aren't part of the best players. However, if you want to push yourself in PVE you can, by 7 manning/trying to get the best numbers/doing w/e stupid stuff you want to make stuff harder and beat it. In PVP, how many matches will you have that actually require you to play perfectly to win. It doesn't happen that much. Like in most matches (even at the highest level) you can get away with a small error. You sometimes play matches where a small error kills you or a teammate, you sometimes do a boss where a small error kill you or a teammate. Both settings can be hard, one is just more controlled than the other (as in it's easier to tune the challenge you want to have).

 

Also:

 

 

A simple look at the leaderboards proves you wrong. Quite a few members of the top 1% PVE community are in the top with only a few matches. They compete with the best without even being committed to it. I am 100% sure that if they formed a team and worked hard for 1 month they'd be high end PVP-players.

 

You are not really comparing the weak AI in this game to real humans?

[steveerkcanjerk]

This is the most elitist snob complaint ever. Not everyone is going to be as good of a pvper as others. The higher volume of players will mean there will be not as good players. When you global someone does not always mean they are throwing. All your suggestion would do is cause people to do the old habits of win trading which still goes on. Idk why people still take ranked seriously in a game like this. The class balance is wack, the rating system is flawed, and meta's rule so hard that it is stupid. So at least you got people in the que now. But now we got to complain how bad people are at. ***. I have been a hardcore pvper since this game came out and dude get over it. Que back up. As long as your team is not throwing games then it should be fine. If you really want to just play leet teams all day whisper them set up a time to fight them like the "good ol days." Edited December 12, 2017 by steveerkcanjerk

[Raansu]

Log into WoW or FFXIV and tell me that the PvE content on the hardest difficulty/setting is cleared by PvP players faster than the people who are used to progressing in PvE content and know the tricks. It doesn't happen. No, I don't care whether this is "your experience" or "your opinion": It's not happening. It's PvP players uptalking their skill over PvE players.

 

Using FFXIV as an example is laughable considering its pvp basically doesn't exist. The queue's were dead until stormblood when they added xp. PvP has never been the focus of that game and no player focuses their time pvping in that game like they would in other MMO's, unless they like sitting in the queue for 30 minutes or go into frontlines where its more pve than pvp and half the players are bots farming xp.

 

Also, FFXIV end game isn't that difficult. Pugs were clearing the EX primals in stormblood expansion within the first day.

 

but there was never a situation where PvP players cleared content in WoW faster than dedicated PvE players.

 

I've been in plenty of dedicated raid guilds that would struggle to clear the most basic mechanics. I was in a dedicated pvp guild when Legion came out and we started doing end game pve because they removed pvp gear. We cleared most of the content with little effort.

 

you have to know tons of different mechanics and adjust yourself to them fairly quickly.

 

Ya because memorizing what a boss does at the same percentage hp every time is sooooo hard *rolles eyes* PvE is just memorizing a script that never changes and is only "difficult" because of gear gaps. You don't start clearing content as you gain gear because you got better. You started clearing because your gear allowed you to deal with the mechanics and made the content easier.

 

PvP skills aren't inherently better than PvE skills, and being good in those skills doesn't translate to being able to stomp PvE players who need "naturally inferior skills." It's just the usual PvP player grandstanding over "those PvE scrubs who hit a computer enemy all day."

 

Except it is. I never see PvE players go into pvp and succeed. I see pvpers go into pve and breeze through it in every MMO I've played. PvE is easy mode.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Raansu

[Alssaran]

Using FFXIV as an example is laughable considering its pvp basically doesn't exist.

 

And neither does this game's PvP exist, except a few people who still want to pretend ranking in any way matters/is not influenced by dozens of trolls. If FFXIV is a bad example because PvP doesn't exist there beyond a part-time activity, then the people playing ranked/upper tiers in this game don't count for sh*t either. The twenty or thirty people who play competitive ranked per server are basically an afterthought of the community at this point.

 

PvP has never been the focus of that game and no player focuses their time pvping in that game like they would in other MMO's

 

And again, PvP hasn't been the focus for this game ever. That was all too apparent when Bioware scrapped 8vs8 ranked literally during the patch it was supposed to go life with some shady excuse, and the engine could never handle more than 15 people on screen without turning to goo. If we say that only an MMO with a PvP focus is eligible for your example, then no MMO is an example. There is no traditional MMO that focuses on PvP and has a sizeable PvE aspect the likes of mythic raiding or NiM raiding in SWTOR to boost. You're just pulling this stuff out of your *** at this point.

 

I've been in plenty of dedicated raid guilds that would struggle to clear the most basic mechanics. I was in a dedicated pvp guild when Legion came out and we started doing end game pve because they removed pvp gear. We cleared most of the content with little effort.

 

Clearing a raid and clearing heroic and mythic are two very different things. You can clear normal content just like everyone else, but please don't pretend you cleared mythic/heroic Nighthold and ToS "on the run." Even the most dedicated players called those raids "guild breakers" for how unforgiving they were. And we are not talking "basically just above average raiders here." We are talking top of the line hardcore progression here. Even those "PvP players" who you believe superior said ToS and Nighthold mythic were some tough and unforgiving fights that couldn't be done "on the run."

 

When you say "clearing content", you are supposedly talking about mythic Nighthold and ToS, right? Or are you seriously trying to pass of normal/heroic raiding as your claim to fame here?

 

Ya because memorizing what a boss does...

 

It's not just about knowing what a boss does, but also adjusting to when it happens and the situation changes mid-fight. I could say the same about PvP tactics: Where's the difficulty in knowing what a class does? You basically need to know ten abilities and some basic tactics that everyone will use. It's no surprise that a low-hp shadow will now try to stealth reg. It's not a surprise that a sorc will bubble or use Phase Walk to get behind that boulder over there. It's not that difficult to memorize a priority system to interrupt.

 

I can break literally everything down into this common recipe of "memorizing the important stuff." Even PvP. The difficutly comes from building the muscle memory and reflexes to adjust to it on the fly.

 

You started clearing because your gear allowed you to deal with the mechanics and made the content easier.

 

Not in the recent two tiers, mate. It was a common theme in the WoW discussions that the mechanics in ToS and NH were so often percentage based that gaining heroic and mythic gear, surprisingly, did not make clearing mythic substantially easier than before.

 

I never see PvE players go into pvp and succeed.

 

I'm a PvE player and defeated tons of gold rating players in SWTOR. Want to continue this nonsensical discussion about your inferiority complex, or want to finally do something productive with this thread again?

[Raansu]

And neither does this game's PvP exist, except a few people who still want to pretend ranking in any way matters/is not influenced by dozens of trolls. If FFXIV is a bad example because PvP doesn't exist there beyond a part-time activity, then the people playing ranked/upper tiers in this game don't count for sh*t either. The twenty or thirty people who play competitive ranked per server are basically an afterthought of the community at this point.

 

Difference is pvp actually pops in swtor. FFXIV pvp queues are 30minutes to an hour long.

[Linkinobriale]

I assume OP is familiar with win-trade. This interest for Tranked is the best thing that could happen :

-regular Pvpers have their team and defeat easily mats farmers so they're not annoyed by them, it's free kill.

-wintrade is more difficult because with more people queuing there is less people-free time for wintraders to queue and wintrade

-more people interested ease the forming of decent groups (I play healer I love having a decent tank for ranked). These people are not so bad so regular can play against a little more than a dummy. Moreover there is a progression possible for newbies.

 

But I agree, poor wintraders they have to connect at night to do their wintrade..... poor loves...

[Foambreaker]

...Except it is. I never see PvE players go into pvp and succeed. I see pvpers go into pve and breeze through it in every MMO I've played. PvE is easy mode...

 

Lets face it, PvP is the end of progression. After watching a vid, learning to repeat those moves (like a chimpanzee) and killing the "lol super hard boss" the next real challenge is PvP.

[Aeneas_Falco]

Move them from Ranked to Regs.

 

Benefits:

 

1. A lot more mats in circulation, leading to more augments being crafted and reduced prices of the same on the GTN.

 

2. Potentially it will get more people interested in PVP. I'm sure that was also part of the intent with putting the mats in Ranked, but doing that with Ranked is like throwing someone who doesn't know how to swim in the deep end of the pool and shouting "sink or swim."

 

3. You already get people of all experience levels in Regs. A few more who have no idea what they are doing is not going going to change much, and one or two on an eight man team is less noticeable than one or two on a four man team.

 

That all said the mats should only be obtainable after meeting certain performance thresholds (damage, heals, protection, or objectives) to avoid having people just finding a corner to hide in. It doesn't have to be steep, just high enough to ensure participation.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Aeneas_Falco

[AlrikFassbauer]

I see pvpers go into pve and breeze through it in every MMO I've played. PvE is easy mode.

 

It's PvP players who invented the "strategy" of "burn through everything with DPS".

 

This "tactic" us never meant to let PvE players keep their fun. In fact, it has led to less and less PvE players wanting to tank and heal in PvE, because it has become senseless, thanks to "burn through everything with DPS" :

 

To the people who want to heal or tank pugs.

 

Tanking or healing vet FP's will only bring frustration and loss of faith in humanity. You guys are better off healing or tanking master modes, where your role is needed. If you feel less confident in your abilities you can always choose an easier one, like Hammer Station, or Athis and progress from there to other ones.

 

I used to heal vets, and I hated it. Since I've started healing master I've re-gained the fun I had healing.

 

PvP players just don't care if they destroy gameplay for PvE players.

So now, they got the answer : PvE players who don't care if they destroy gameplay for PvP players.

 

 

I do believe that it is also part of "the typical PvP player's" toxitic<y to look down on PvE players like they were an inferior race. Of course, PvP players cannot allow themselbves to look at PvE players as if they were something equal, because that woulöd let them (the PvP players) look weak. In order to appear aggressive, competitive, and as a strong player, PvP players NEED to look down on someone else - or a whole group.

Edited January 10, 2018 by AlrikFassbauer

[PlagaNerezza]

Simple fix to the Total Fk Up that is now group ranked.

 

I vote double the losers mats and give the winners nothing.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

 

I do believe that it is also part of "the typical PvP player's" toxitic<y to look down on PvE players like they were an inferior race. Of course, PvP players cannot allow themselbves to look at PvE players as if they were something equal, because that woulöd let them (the PvP players) look weak. In order to appear aggressive, competitive, and as a strong player, PvP players NEED to look down on someone else - or a whole group.

 

Agreed.

 

This is BS. Even the best PVPer, if they did not have a fair amount of experience doing HMs/NiMs not only would they not breeze through NiM, they's come in dead last if they somehow managed not to cause a raid wide wipe for failure of a one shot mechanic.

Edited January 10, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[nepochop]

Lets face it, PvP is the end of progression. After watching a vid, learning to repeat those moves (like a chimpanzee) and killing the "lol super hard boss" the next real challenge is PvP.

 

And how many "lol super hard bosses" have you killed?

[Aeneas_Falco]

Agreed.

 

This is BS. Even the best PVPer, if they did not have a fair amount of experience doing HMs/NiMs not only would they not breeze through NiM, they's come in dead last if they somehow managed not to cause a raid wide wipe for failure of a one shot mechanic.

 

Not to mention that a lot of PVPers aren't going to have the correct build for it. I'm only running 104% accuracy on one of my DPS for instance. That works great in PVP but would be a big fail in HM or NiM Ops.

 

I will say that PVP experience does give one skill that translates well into Ops: Learning to play mobile.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Aeneas_Falco

[ALaggyGrunt]

Move them from Ranked to Regs.

 

Benefits:

 

1. A lot more mats in circulation, leading to more augments being crafted and reduced prices of the same on the GTN.

 

2. Potentially it will get more people interested in PVP. I'm sure that was also part of the intent with putting the mats in Ranked, but doing that with Ranked is like throwing someone who doesn't know how to swim in the deep end of the pool and shouting "sink or swim."

 

3. You already get people of all experience levels in Regs. A few more who have no idea what they are doing is not going going to change much, and one or two on an eight man team is less noticeable than one or two on a four man team.

 

That all said the mats should only be obtainable after meeting certain performance thresholds (damage, heals, protection, or objectives) to avoid having people just finding a corner to hide in. It doesn't have to be steep, just high enough to ensure participation.

 

There are already plenty of people playing both ground and space PvP who don't know and don't care to learn how to play well.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Not to mention that a lot of PVPers aren't going to have the correct build for it. I'm only running 104% accuracy on one of my DPS for instance. That works great in PVP but would be a big fail in HM or NiM Ops.

 

I will say that PVP experience does give one skill that translates well into Ops: Learning to play mobile.

 

Admittedly they are two separate beats, but, at the same time, there's no experience that's wasteful and I agree with your observation of the mobility factor, it's a fair point.

[Rafiknoll]

Lets face it, PvP is the end of progression. After watching a vid, learning to repeat those moves (like a chimpanzee) and killing the "lol super hard boss" the next real challenge is PvP.

I liked the comparisons to a chimpanzee there. Repeat the HPS that you never had to maintain in PVP, repeat the flawless rotation, repeat the fast response to one-shot mechanics...

Now I guess we can send a group of PVPers to Revan HM (which isn't hard numberwise, it is only tactics) and laugh at how inferior they are to apes for failing to sync their cleanses, time their interrupts and face the aberrations.

No, let's get simpler and see if they can one-shot the underlurker (or fail to hide from storm, or fail the cross) or the walkers (or step on a red "stupid **** is invisible", place a red on gravity, attack the shielded walker blindly for 20s or just not sync the deaths in the required 5s). Just a few examples from 1 HM, not NiM ops. Go Darwin!!

It is a fact that you can do quite well in most PVP content without voice comms and you could have top performance if no one would use voice comms. The truly hard bosses of PVP can't be killed that way.

As a guy who does both (and GSF), I would consider PvE hardest, then ranked, then GSF and last would be regs. But I also don't consider guard a not broken mechanic, maybe I am crazy

 

PVP teaches you to play mobile and to use DCDs with consideration, it also teaches kiting, though in PVE you probably can't slow, stun, push or root your enemy

PVE teaches you how does undisturbed execution of your rotation should look, so you can get as close to is as possible while you PVP. It also teaches healers what is the best way to burst someone up without harming their resource pool too much (a drained healer = wipe, unlike the more tolerating PVP in which DCDs can save everyone), and the tanks how to respond to DPS taking aggro (which is the PVE equivalent of focus being switched to another target, though the usage of guard is a thing you would do retroactively only in PVP, the "march in and taunt" basics are same).

Both aspects help, and I can even tell you from experience that kiting and LoSing in GSF gives you practice in kiting in any other aspect of this game and other.

Solo MM story can teach you how to handle solo duels quite well. The enemy may not stun and kite, but he has 5 times the damage of a player so it is balanced

Playing anything benefits you in everything. Whatever one consider's his final goal is whatever he enjoys. Feeling superiority over others is just stupid and illogical.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Rafiknoll

[Brutal]

I have to agree with Raansu. An experienced pvper will have an easier time in raid content than raiders coming into pvp.

All you have to do is watch a bunch of instructional youtube videos on the fights.

Sure you may wipe a couple of times while you are getting accustomed to where to stand. But it’s not hard to learn because pve scripted raids come down to one thing, how good is your memory.

Learning a rotation isn’t hard and being able to sustain that dps is easier than having to decide what priority ability you need to setup to use at specific time in pvp. Honestly, I find raids boring now because of how long you have to just run through the same rotation constantly.

I used to do high level raiding in WoW and thought it was difficult because I’d never pvped before, then I started to pvp in WoW and raids got easier, real fast. When I came to swtor six years ago, I started to pvp straight away and didn’t do much raiding at all. My guild at the time was right into raiding and was always asking people to join, but you had to have the right gear, which I didn’t. All I had was my high lvl pvp gear, so they would never even let me try. Then one evening they were desperate and let me come in my pvp gear. I breezed through the content because I’d already learned the raid from YouTube. They were amazed I could do it in my pvp gear. I even showed them some better things to try to make it easier. After that I used to get invited all the time. But I used to decline mostly because it was boring after the first few times.

If you can learn the fight and are skilled enough to play ranked pvp, then Raids aren’t that difficult as long as you’ve got a good memory, which most good pvpers do because we’ve had learn all 8 advanced class abilities and know how to counter them.

 

 

so im guessing when tfb nim mode came out over 150 pages of complains how unbeatable is the second boss only 8 players did kill it pre-nerf all others needed 2 nerfs to do it and that was when this game still had hardcore progress guilds this day's old pugs where more hardcore than some progress guilds watching few vids and wiping few times won't make u pro progress player the difrence is pvp u trying to outsmart other player pve is about perfect execution of mechanicks i as for ranked i dont see top 8 players having the first boss kill on any of hm ops that come out nider i dont see any top pve players in top 10 pvp ranked there is a reson for that