An honest conversation: Future Operation development is not feasible.

[Aowin]

The MMO playerbase enjoys Massively Multiplayer Online content, limiting your development to 4-man and solo content is not only proven to hurt the game, but also against the very foundations of the genre this game is advertised as.

 

This game has never been "massively multiplayer." BioWare's unstable alpha version of the HeroEngine cannot even handle more than 20 players in an environment. Why do you think Ilum World PvP was removed from the game a month after launch? It's because this game couldn't support large concentrations of players in a single area, and that was at best 50 people in one area fighting. The game was literally unplayable and would become a slideshow. That doesn't sound like a traditional MMO to me. SWG was more stable than that, and that MMO released in 2003.

[Master_Morak]

I disagree with your hypothesis that it was the raid that was the reason behind the lack of content. More likely it was the server merges that drained BWA resources. And now that server merges are being implemented, once complete they will be able to move on to providing actual content. They gave us what content they could over the course of the past year: couple of story chapters, part of a new raid, a new FP, class balance (for what that's worth), and new GSF revamp/balance. All while working out the technical and logistical issues that prevented server merges in the past.

 

I disagree with your thesis, the server merge is mainly a technical feature. You need no creative developers doing that. In our company it is the same - server and server center consolidation is done by our teckies, the development of the business software is done by completly other teams.

[Eli_Porter]

This game has never been "massively multiplayer." BioWare's unstable alpha version of the HeroEngine cannot even handle more than 20 players in an environment. Why do you think Ilum World PvP was removed from the game a month after launch? It's because this game couldn't support large concentrations of players in a single area, and that was at best 50 people in one area fighting. The game was literally unplayable and would become a slideshow. That doesn't sound like a traditional MMO to me. SWG was more stable than that, and that MMO released in 2003.

 

8-man and 16-man content still falls under the MMO umbrella and the game can definitely support that (Heck my guild ran a 20-man world boss raid a few days ago). Just because it doesn't fit your personal definition doesn't mean it isn't advertised and treated as an MMO.

 

Stop avoiding the clear facts, this isn't a 4-man/solo content game. It's been tried for the past two years and failed miserably.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[Transcendent]

As I indicated in the OP, we know that the endgame team has been downsized substantially (the studio has been seeing layoffs since early 2012). KOTFE and KOTET paint a pretty clear picture that whatever team is left is rather minimal. When asked why BioWare couldn't do more than a story chapter each month, Ben Irving stated along the lines that the entire team was working on each chapter just to get them out the door on time.

 

That doesn't paint the picture of a team that has the flexibility and manpower to do all sorts of content simultaneously. That gives the impression of a team that is understaffed and overworked, which would explain why so many patches and updates have bugs (some game-breaking) that take weeks, if not months, to fix.

 

The Yavin IV warzone map isn't "new." It was an abandoned feature from SOR that is now being revisited. Strongholds are not hard to develop, especially when they are as small, underwhelming, and are literally recycling previously-used assets, just like the Manaan stronghold. These flashpoints are very short and the story bits also being underwhelming and brief. Again, everything we have received has been small bites here and there. That speaks to a team that is at its limits.

 

You can assume this is a "new team" wanting to take things slow, as long as you realize that is your assumption and not based on any actual facts. To the contrary, I don't believe BioWare Austin is in a position to hire many employees, let alone those who lack MMO experience. If they bring anybody on board at this point, it's likely veterans to the industry. They can't afford to deal with rookies trying to figure out how to develop for a six year old MMO on an obsolete engine.

 

It's not the first time BioWare has removed features. Ilum World PvP. 8v8 ranked warzones. I loved those features, yet BioWare removed them anyway. It's not out of the realm of possibility that they would stop developing future operations, especially if they don't have the means to do so. For the health and stability of the game, it makes sense to focus on what they can do easily and in a reasonable manner. There is nothing easy or reasonable about operation development. It is without a doubt the hardest content to make in an MMO. This is the problem.

 

I wasn't aware Ben Irving had stated that, however, with that being said. If the entire team was working on chapters alone, how did they also manage to put out other content (regardless of reusing assets) like Star Fortresses, EC, Uprisings, a daily area amongst other things? That doesn't reflect that the entire team was working on chapters alone does it?

 

I'm going to base my assumptions on that what you are saying Ben Irving stated was not the entire picture, and that was purely the focus he wanted as well as the picture he wished to portray.

 

We have no real information to prove otherwise aside from the lead endgame content developer moved on (was he replaced? Do you know?) and the rest is an unknown quantity. Equally we don't know if the BioWare Austin development team assists with other projects, nor do we know if they receive assistance from others under the BioWare umbrella. Essentially we're both making assumptions, without any tangible evidence on the actual size of the development team. As to the flexibility side of the team, I wouldn't for a second imagine it's easy to just switch focus mid-development cycle to focus on any one specific area of the game, nor do I imagine that by doing so that there may be things that get placed onto a back-burner like the SoR PvP map for periods of time, to be revisited at a later stage in the development cycle.

 

Creating content from scratch may be easier or harder than we think, equally reworking existing content may be easier and harder than we know. Essentially what I'm trying to point out Aowin, is that we have too many unknown variables to be forming a definitive view on what exactly happens at BioWare Austin or how they choose to develop the game. Basing a view about what is and isn't feasible for development on assumptions alone is likely to be off the mark by some considerable distance.

[Ylliarus]

They "left" because of bad pacing in the monthly chapters (most of them being filler). The concept was fine. The execution was not. There was "endgame," from star fortress, to eternal championship, to a new wz map. The "endgame players," specifically raiders, had already left years ago. Story is the reason this game exists. It still surprises me how little many seem to understand that.

 

You have no idea how wrong you are, how terribly wrong you are. I am sorry to ask but do you even talk with other players or engage with them ingame? Because from the way it sounds you have absolutely no clue about the makeup of SWTOR's playerbase and what the general sentiments are in the community. Just because you believe something is true doesn't mean it actually is and if you would have listened, not replied with your own beliefs, just listened to another player ingame you would have known how important operations and raids are for the future of this game as well as how big the raiding community still is in this game. Delude yourself all you want that the raiding community is small, the rest of us know it's still at least half of the current player population if not more. Why do you think we otherwise have server merges if not for the general wish of the raiding community to have more players to group up with? The server merges are being done to keep majority of the playerbase happy, meaning, the raiders and pvp'ers. Ever think about that?

 

This game has never been "massively multiplayer." BioWare's unstable alpha version of the HeroEngine cannot even handle more than 20 players in an environment. Why do you think Ilum World PvP was removed from the game a month after launch? It's because this game couldn't support large concentrations of players in a single area, and that was at best 50 people in one area fighting. The game was literally unplayable and would become a slideshow. That doesn't sound like a traditional MMO to me. SWG was more stable than that, and that MMO released in 2003.

 

Having an opinion is one thing, denying facts is plain stupidity, in all blunt honesty. Are you living in such a vivid illusion that you really think this game can't support multiple players online in one environment? Ever been to the fleet? Or a warzone? An operation? The more you write the less and less I believe your claims of having done nightmare operations, or any operation at all, sorry. I am at least honest about the fact I have done like what, 1 or 2 story mode operations at most in all of my 5 years in this game.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Ylliarus

[Cawyden]

I think it would be great mistake to not develop any OPS or other endgame content further.

 

People enjoy different aspects of this game - some doesn't care at all about story and only play PVP or endgame content or do other things.

 

They already have been neglected for quite some time and still people were patient enough to continue to support this game. It is clear that Bioware has problems to provide content for all on a regular basis, but even that little that we get is at least something and enough for some people to continue playing and even staying subscribed.

 

If they stop developing content for some part of the game the players who like to play it will very likely leave for good - and I would totally understand that or do that myself. This can't be the solution - you would only loose even more players.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Cawyden

[Thruine]

I'm not quite sure how you can have a MMO that's solely story. Its fine to offer everything a MMO brings with the structure of a story but once you done the story there's little reason to play through it again. I don't even like doing the same heroic again so doing the same story is hundred fold worst. i already know how it goes. I may get to make different choices but its still going to have the same flow and outcome. There's absolutely no reason to subscribe since its not even something I would think about doing weekly.

 

But its fine to have story be a major component of all content. Missions, heroics, flashpoints, and operations are so much more engaging (to me) when there's a story being told which makes me want to see how it ends. Like it or not, operations is a valid option and probably more people should try. I think its the experiences of other games (WoW) and toxic players that scares folks off. I know in WoW you'd avoided the barbed tongues of players as much as some critter. And I'm sure there is some players in SWTOR that now more about the class they aren't playing than the one playing it which is extremely annoying. But that doesn't mean operations can't be fun. They're just different and you deal with those same kinds of people everywhere you would group with folks.

 

If you don't like them, that's okay since many don't. But they used to be the elite players who got the best of the best gear instead of the muddled games we have now that awards everyone that gear or makes it possible to achieve without doing the harder content. Its a shame to me that GC will allow players access to gear they don't need which should be available only to raiders. Now remember I don't raid currently but there's absolutely no reason to hamper the raiding community with gaining new players by removing one of the biggest motivating reasons to raid. That's a big enough method of doing away with raids as anything short of removing them to me. Just my opinion on the subject and as someone that hopes for a best in slot drop from a crate.

[supertimtaf]

Having an opinion is one thing, denying facts is plain stupidity, in all blunt honesty. Are you living in such a vivid illusion that you really think this game can't support multiple players online in one environment? Ever been to the fleet? Or a warzone? An operation? The more you write the less and less I believe your claims of having done nightmare operations, or any operation at all, sorry. I am at least honest about the fact I have done like what, 1 or 2 story mode operations at most in all of my 5 years in this game.

 

Ylliarus, as much as I like your comments, I must say that for once he is right about Ilum open-world PvP. This game is not made for big open activity that involve 16players or more. You can see it well on some warzone like Quesh Huttball, every 16man Operation, any WB like Ancient Threat or Revanite Walker... I had the «chance» of playing onto a rp server at the time, where almost nobody was here for pvp (you could still meet some of the best players I've seen, but they where rare), thus Ilum pvp map was alright at best. There was one time where we got 30peoples hitting each other... man, that was exactly what he said. A slideshow. This game is not ready for 16man+ content due to its optimization. Still, 8man content run smoothly and has never been a problem.

Edited October 15, 2017 by supertimtaf

[Suzsi]

I always wonder if they did not have the 3-6m worth of cinematics, how much more content we could have.🎅

 

I wonder if they stopped doing cinematics in their stories how many more players they would lose. I would be fastest out the door.

[Eshvara]

I wonder if they stopped doing cinematics in their stories how many more players they would lose. I would be fastest out the door.

 

I mean the Blur cinematics, unless you mean that too.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Eshvara

[Cawyden]

I wonder if they stopped doing cinematics in their stories how many more players they would lose. I would be fastest out the door.

 

Imagine they would do the complete story like the alliance alerts dialogue (Kotor style) - this would be enough for me to stop playing. I mean I even don't like it for the alliance alerts but having everything like that would be really awful for me.

[Suzsi]

I'm not quite sure how you can have a MMO that's solely story. Its fine to offer everything a MMO brings with the structure of a story but once you done the story there's little reason to play through it again. I don't even like doing the same heroic again so doing the same story is hundred fold worst. i already know how it goes. I may get to make different choices but its still going to have the same flow and outcome. There's absolutely no reason to subscribe since its not even something I would think about doing weekly.

 

But its fine to have story be a major component of all content. Missions, heroics, flashpoints, and operations are so much more engaging (to me) when there's a story being told which makes me want to see how it ends. Like it or not, operations is a valid option and probably more people should try. I think its the experiences of other games (WoW) and toxic players that scares folks off. I know in WoW you'd avoided the barbed tongues of players as much as some critter. And I'm sure there is some players in SWTOR that now more about the class they aren't playing than the one playing it which is extremely annoying. But that doesn't mean operations can't be fun. They're just different and you deal with those same kinds of people everywhere you would group with folks.

 

If you don't like them, that's okay since many don't. But they used to be the elite players who got the best of the best gear instead of the muddled games we have now that awards everyone that gear or makes it possible to achieve without doing the harder content. Its a shame to me that GC will allow players access to gear they don't need which should be available only to raiders. Now remember I don't raid currently but there's absolutely no reason to hamper the raiding community with gaining new players by removing one of the biggest motivating reasons to raid. That's a big enough method of doing away with raids as anything short of removing them to me. Just my opinion on the subject and as someone that hopes for a best in slot drop from a crate.

 

I think you would be surprised just how many of the players who left post Kotet did so because there has been no regular story content this past year and just how many would come back if regular story was a thing again. The amount of story players this game has -- has always been grossly under-estimated. Even now there are calls for more class stories, more republic vrs empire stories, added romances and so forth. Everyday these things are requested and yet still the amount of people who play more for story then anything else is massively under estimated.

[Eshvara]

Imagine they would do the complete story like the alliance alerts dialogue (Kotor style) - this would be enough for me to stop playing. I mean I even don't like it for the alliance alerts but having everything like that would be really awful for me.

 

I agree that sucks, but that's not what I meant. I edited my post however as it seemed to be unclear.,

[Khaleijo]

Quite a few flashpoints also have a solo player modes. Does that mean flashpoints are not "endgame content" either?

Well they are, but look at the quality of the newer FPs we got. What made the classic FP attractive was the combination of the little side story combined with some fun mechanics being played in a small group. Up to Dread Fortress and Palace a lot of those FP also had light versions of what mechanics Ops bosses did later.

 

Guilds spam for members to raid, pvp, quest, conquest, etc. I didn't say no one did raids. I stated that raiders (progression raiders and the folks who only care about raiding) largely aren't here anymore. No, they didn't return to the game either. There are plenty of MMOs that do raiding far better. Why play TOR? Actual raiders don't.

Who exactly are 'the raiders' you are speaking of as in what kind of raiders? Progression server first people, casuals or something in between?

And who said those people still here and raiding are not also playing the rest of what the game has to offer. You seem to look at this completely black and white, a raider does only raids. And everyone is a progression raider That's just not true.

 

There aren't only the 'I'm on vacation to play my MMO with every new content update to make server first' people and never really have been with this game. The progression part is nothing compared to what the golden age progression in EQ or WoW was or is. But it doesn't need to be either.

A lot of people actually like the more casual approach to raiding with this game. That you are able to raid with fun without too much time commitment. There is just no need to *progress* for hours 5 evenings a week to get somewhere.

I'm able to raid even NIM with a similar amount of time I spend on other hobbies like doing sports in a club once or twice a week. All in all 2 to 2,5 hours on two evenings a week. A time frame I can easily fit in my weekly activities and job/family life.

Except for gear that I can get through raiding (again) I have not to spend time to prepare for raids here. No grind for buff food or flasks like in Wow, I just send my companions while raiding and it's enough I can concentrate on what I want to play with out having to do other stuff first to be able to do what I want.

 

Most of BioWare single player games are known for having huge amounts of replay value because of the story. Check out KOTOR, Jade Empire, Dragon Age Origins, Mass Effect. KOTFE and KOTET faltered because your choices largely change nothing, sabotaging replay value. That can be fixed if the writing is better and choices are played through in a meaningful way.

Replay value was once great but it took already a huge hit with Mass Effect 2 and 3 quite some time ago. I liked them both, but the same 'gather resources and assets' that changed nothing but maybe a minuscule video sequence, if at all, was already in place with them. No real difference if Paragon or renegade, no real difference if you had all war assets, the attack on earth was just the same. Same with DA:I the game has a big 'gain allies and resources' system that was fun to a degree, but in the end it didn't change anything with the story and the final with Cory was one of the most disappointing game final I ever played.

The main replay value of these games were the interactions with your crew. Not the underlying main story nor the farming of war assets.

 

It wouldn't be nearly an issue if the chapters had more replay value and we continued to have the monthly chapter approach with subscriber rewards. We could never complain about never having content because we would get something every single month (with a new wz map or fp sprinkled in on occasion).

But they haven't that sort of replay value, neither have the newer FP. I could run the Foundry for another hundred times because the right mix of background story, memorable characters as bosses and the mechanics are just fun to play. Lost Island and Kaon were the last quality FPs made in my opinion.

In comparison, the SOR FPs and Umbara really look nice, but for me have no soul, no background, the bosses there (except for the easter egg with Korriban and Tython quest givers there) are bland placeholders that could be replaced by anything else you just shot at. They aren't established via story before hand like Serevin, Revan, Lorik or Malgus were. You don't know anything of them before the FP, neither learn something about them in there and never meet or hear of them again. Even Darok and Arkous don't have the same weight as for example Malgus, they remain shallow villains, who more or less happen to be there because an antagonist is needed.

 

The problem is you equate "endgame group content" to only being raids or dungeons, which it is not. PVE content, in particular, is notorious for having terrible replay value. It's why a lot of MMOs will focus on PVP instead, because it has far better replay value and better player retention. Honestly, had BioWare had a structure back then for monthly chapters for the eight class stories, I think this game would be in a vastly different position today.

The replay value depends on your interest. PVE are FPs too, I replay them for years and still run them, maybe not daily, but I manage to do the Master mode weekly most of the time. In particular I actually prefer the classic FPs including Kaon and Lost Island to any of the SOR FPs or Umbara. Even though I have 100% achievements in all of the old ones. They are still fun and running with GF, every group is a different experience.

 

I'm someone who likes to replay class stories and planetary arcs too, when I'm just spending my time here spontaneous. But even the classic stories can be repeated only so often.

While running an operation/FP is different every time I play it with another role or class, with different people, other tactics and so on.

It the same if I replay a story with different choices, others might think its all the same because they just throw a short glance at the activity, but it isn't, neither are ops with different classes, roles and tactics or simply different people.

 

SWTORs Operation do have in fact a lot of replay value or so many veteran people still doing operations wouldn't be still here running them. The progression teams are gone, many people raiding between progression and casual are still there and haven't all left.

Again it is the mix of lore/story established in game and the mechanics and the easy access. Dread Fortress and Palace being the big example. It's just great to fight the Dread Masters.

They have character and personality, that is a big appeal to the players interested into a more casual approach to raiding. Because they like both story and raiding.

Especially in a game this heavy on story as SWTOR, people expect story and lore behind the villains. In FPs and Ops too.

I like 'The Ravages' for its mechanics for example, but at the same time I find the villains and bosses in there totally boring, there is no 'why am I trying to defeat these guys' they are just there. Which in the end leads to running operations where I have both fun playing mechanics and fun with the personalities I fight against way more often.

 

You seem to equate raiding with what you see as progression raiding or the huge raids of old with 40+ players, though you forget progression raiders are not all there is to raiding. And the interest into raiding changed.

For most players, raiding in Swtor is doing operations for fun with their group, not making a new job out of it.

The 8 or 10 player groups are the perfect balance between the effort to organize them and the the fun you have with your people. I never liked 40+ groups, too many people in there I wouldn't spend time with if not for the raid. 25 or 20 was better but there is still a lot of effort required to make sure you find enough people to play with at a certain schedule. More time than most people interested in raiding for fun want to spare. With 10 or here 8 players you spend your time playing the game, not organizing.

If SWTOR did one thing brilliant with raiding it is the casual approach with the time you have to commit. Both for organisation and preparation to start with raiding.

 

Adding a raid here and there is not going to save this game.That's not why most gamers even bought SWTOR to start. If all anybody was after was raiding, WoW, FFXIV, and plenty of other MMOs do raiding far better.

 

Depends, Swtor was also hyped as becoming the Wow killer, I'm not sure if the official PR said this themselves at one point, but they sure didn't do much to stop that hype either. And Wow being primary focused on raiding, with that hype came expectations that just couldn't be pleased.

Many people I knew from Wow tried SWTOR, but the lack of endgame content in every niche made them stop soon again. Which led to the mass exodus after a few month. There was just too little to do after the story and what was there was heavily bugged.

 

As for better I don't know, they do it different, I played WoW for years, up until MoP and the time I had most fun was with Lich King. I had a look at it again in early 2017 and it just wasn't fun to me. One part was the fantasy setting I don't like that much any more, but way more important, the time I have to spend playing and farming just to prepare for raiding there, is more than I can/want to afford nowadays. It triples the time i need to play to actually spend time with my favourite activity.

With Swtor I simply play the raids or FPs. No farming for flasks or enchantments first, no reputation grind. Just playing the ops, first in SM then HC, is enough to get the gear needed (since the token drops returned) and all I need for additional crafting/buffing stuff is done by my companions, while I spend my time with having fun playing the content I want.

 

I don't want to do the traditional progression raiding, I want to spend a fun time with my group with a certain challenge. SWTOR provides that very well and the Ops mechanics they introduced were fun for the most part, most are straight forward and easy to understand even if you need practice to play them.

The only downside is the frequency of new operations and the slow reaction to bugs.

 

I don't even expect the new raids frequency WoW has, if what is coming here is comparable to for example DF /DP two of the greatest operations created here in my opinion, the devs don't need to push out new raid every few months.

But several years and two expansion without anything simply was too long. Even social groups and replaying operations get you only so far before people loose patience.

Especially if all they hear is, yes we will focus on your interest soon... after this... uhm no after this piece of content, for real now.... uhm sorry you'll have to wait longer again.

(Re)introducing bugs into old operations and not fixing them for months didn't help either.

 

So they left, leaving behind lots of skeleton guilds that often enough made the non raiding players leave too.

When your long time clique is gone and there is a lot of effort or try and error involved, to find new like minded people,non ops players rarely look for a new guild. They too drop their subscription or maybe simply follow their guild mates to other games.

Don't underestimate what a healthy guild structure can do for the enjoyment of the players and how many groups of players go back to this or that game where they first met.

Large group/raiding content is part of that, so that you don't have just lots of 3 to 4 men buddy groups that play for them selves but are not really interested in anyone else.

[xordevoreaux]

This thread started as a long-winded whine by the OP which, by the end of his original post, ended up as a taunt of the developers, which doesn't:

 

1. Inject money into their development budget or lengthen their production cycle to address your game feature

2. Motivate the developers to suddenly change their project plans to meet your particular beef with a game feature

3. Require any comment regarding your goading taunts from the developers

 

Goading taunt:

 

This suggests a team that is no longer suited or capable of creating raid content in a reasonable or efficient manner.

 

You're basically whining that the dev focus on the merge not coinciding perfectly with your focus on a particular game feature is somehow a lack of production potential and capability, and, because of this mis-match between what you specifically want and what they're generally doing, you're subsequently accusing them of incompetence. How entitled you are.

 

As others have stated in this thread in so many words, both your premise and conclusion are false.

Edited October 15, 2017 by xordevoreaux

[Quraswren]

SNIP...

It wouldn't be nearly an issue if the chapters had more replay value and we continued to have the monthly chapter approach with subscriber rewards.

 

We'll sadly they have little to no replay value and never will. As shown, story doesn't carry this game. You can dream and wish it were different and hope they had replay value in it but once you know the story, it's pretty much done. They monthly chapter release was one of the things people hated about it combined with the crappy design, spawning mobs everywhere, choices that mean nothing in the grand scheme of the story and no end game group content worth repeating. Hell, it's just another thing that drove swtor into the ground - too much reliance on story and nothing else.

 

We could never complain about never having content because we would get something every single month (with a new wz map or fp sprinkled in on occasion).

 

Sure we had something to complain about when the content was a once and done story and since that was all we were ever going to get, It sucked and drove this game into the ground the very second gamers played it once, saw how bad it was, no choice mattered and they got out. It wasn't worth playing over time and it was barely worth playing once given the bad design and the flawed story.

 

Again, EV and KP (only Bonethrasher was available at launch) were optional content. They weren't ready at release because they were not a priority. It was optional content. I will admit BioWare should have at least squashed the bugs in EV, but that was never the focus. BioWare didn't even promote EV, the first raid, until four months before the game released. Most of the pre-launch marketing for SWTOR was dedicated to story.

 

The problem was as bioware stated, they thought all that class story was going to hold gamers for a long time and they didn't create enough end game group content and it became abundantly clear no matter how much story you have, you better have a good amount of end game group content to hold gamers times. They will eventually go back and see the rest of the stories but most gamers have a main and they were never going to go back and repeat it all so quickly in story mode. They were going to start hitting end game on mains and gear up and level alts when not doing mains. Bioware and it seems you think story is some great catch and swtor history proves that wrong in so many ways. Not only at launch but for the past number of years as we have all watched this game takes a nose dive.

 

The problem is you equate "endgame group content" to only being raids or dungeons, which it is not. PVE content, in particular, is notorious for having terrible replay value. It's why a lot of MMOs will focus on PVP instead, because it has far better replay value and better player retention. Honestly, had BioWare had a structure back then for monthly chapters for the eight class stories, I think this game would be in a vastly different position today.

 

No the problem is bioware once again thinking story would ever be a major retention factor for swtor. It couldn't at launch when we had better and more class stories and it couldn't through the last 26 chapters either when little to no end game group content was created.

 

Your delusion is thinking we are only talking about FP and OPS. However, we are talking about all and game group content. OPS, FP, PVP, World bosses you name it as long as it's a form of group content that is worth repeating. Solo content just isn't enough and you'd have to be blind at this point to not see that given the state of swtor and how solo content / story content only has done so much damage to swtor especially when they forget the rest of the puzzle pieces that makes MMO worth stay in.

 

The game failed because there was no way to continue the eight individual class stories in a reasonable manner and losing 3/4s of the player base in three months sealed the game's fate. Your revisionist history of "more endgame group content would have saved TOR at launch" will never be true because SWTOR was never that kind of game.

 

Adding a raid here and there is not going to save this game.That's not why most gamers even bought SWTOR to start. If all anybody was after was raiding, WoW, FFXIV, and plenty of other MMOs do raiding far better.

 

The game failed because bioware went to long with the things that drive gamers to stay in game. Repeatable end game group content. It failed because bioware relied on story to carry the game and didn't have what games expect at end game. It continued to fail because they once again dropped back and thought a one for all story would do the trick and while some gamers returned to see a bit of it, they left just as fast because the story was worse than class stories and not worth repeating at all. Nor was it worth paying $15 a month for 30 mins of once and done content.

 

It's not my thinking of end game content would have saved swtor. It was biowares and ohlens own words.

 

Maybe you need to read them again: http://www.pcgamer.com/bioware-gdc-panel-star-wars-the-old-republic/

 

"A fast leveling curve isn't necessarily a game-killer. DC Universe Online, for example, was chided at its launch for requiring minimal effort to hit the level cap (a relatively low 20-30 hours), but the game had a wealth of endgame content ready to go at launch, so level-capped players stayed active. According to Ohlen, the real problem for the SWTOR team, and ultimately the game itself, resulted from the team not being prepared for how fast players consume content in MMOs, a genre Ohlen pointed out that BioWare had no experience in before SWTOR."

 

They are comparing swtor to dcuo and end game content. They are not talking about solo story content being what was needed to. End game content and that is group content in every form you know - OPS, FP, PVP, etc.... along with ways to get group together easier.

 

But in the end adding a OPS here and there isn't going to save the game but adding is story sure as hell isn't and we have seen that first hand twice now.

 

We need content so desperately in all areas but story has had it's turn for a while now, it's now time to try something they have not done in a while. Worth repeating, end game group content. You might want to get on board with that because I have a feeling thats where they are heading. Will it turn out to be worth repeating? Time will tell but if it's like iokath and umbara then we will have a problem still and like relying on story, all that effort will be for nothing.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Quraswren

[Sareeph]

This game has never been "massively multiplayer." BioWare's unstable alpha version of the HeroEngine cannot even handle more than 20 players in an environment. Why do you think Ilum World PvP was removed from the game a month after launch? It's because this game couldn't support large concentrations of players in a single area, and that was at best 50 people in one area fighting. The game was literally unplayable and would become a slideshow. That doesn't sound like a traditional MMO to me. SWG was more stable than that, and that MMO released in 2003.

 

Ilum failed because of the ability to camp spawn points, and thereby gain massive honor. This was not corrected fast enough nor were the ones doing it stripped of the honor. Many left because of this. It wasn't the engine. Just subscribers leaving because of slow reaction times and lack of corrections. Couple that with the completely rng battlemaster bags and the exodus was massive.

[Aowin]

I disagree with your thesis, the server merge is mainly a technical feature. You need no creative developers doing that. In our company it is the same - server and server center consolidation is done by our teckies, the development of the business software is done by completly other teams.

 

Finally. Someone that actually has a clue about game development. BioWare Austin may have seen significant layoffs over the years, but it still has different teams working on different areas (engine, service, content, etc.). That's not exclusive to BioWare. That's basic game development 101.

 

8-man and 16-man content still falls under the MMO umbrella and the game can definitely support that (Heck my guild ran a 20-man world boss raid a few days ago). Just because it doesn't fit your personal definition doesn't mean it isn't advertised and treated as an MMO.

 

Stop avoiding the clear facts, this isn't a 4-man/solo content game. It's been tried for the past two years and failed miserably.

 

8-man and 16-man does not "fall under the MMO umbrella." Halo has modes, such as Big Team battle, with up to 32 players. Battlefield 1 has conquest, with up to 64 players. Those are not MMOs, yet they can support more players than SWTOR ironically enough.

 

There are no "clear facts." Your argument is cyclical and contradictory. BioWare has "tried . . . and failed miserably" to create expansions focused on "endgame group content," specifically raiding. It didn't work as the subscriber numbers continued to fall anyway, which is why KOTFE happened to begin with.

 

I wasn't aware Ben Irving had stated that, however, with that being said. If the entire team was working on chapters alone, how did they also manage to put out other content (regardless of reusing assets) like Star Fortresses, EC, Uprisings, a daily area amongst other things? That doesn't reflect that the entire team was working on chapters alone does it?

 

I'm going to base my assumptions on that what you are saying Ben Irving stated was not the entire picture, and that was purely the focus he wanted as well as the picture he wished to portray.

 

We have no real information to prove otherwise aside from the lead endgame content developer moved on (was he replaced? Do you know?) and the rest is an unknown quantity. Equally we don't know if the BioWare Austin development team assists with other projects, nor do we know if they receive assistance from others under the BioWare umbrella. Essentially we're both making assumptions, without any tangible evidence on the actual size of the development team. As to the flexibility side of the team, I wouldn't for a second imagine it's easy to just switch focus mid-development cycle to focus on any one specific area of the game, nor do I imagine that by doing so that there may be things that get placed onto a back-burner like the SoR PvP map for periods of time, to be revisited at a later stage in the development cycle.

 

Creating content from scratch may be easier or harder than we think, equally reworking existing content may be easier and harder than we know. Essentially what I'm trying to point out Aowin, is that we have too many unknown variables to be forming a definitive view on what exactly happens at BioWare Austin or how they choose to develop the game. Basing a view about what is and isn't feasible for development on assumptions alone is likely to be off the mark by some considerable distance.

 

He mentioned it in one of the Dev live streams before KOTET released. As far as how EC, SF, and the Odessen WZ were still made, that's because those features had already been in the works for months. My comments were referring to the monthly chapters, in particular, which had to be prepped and polish for release. It's commonplace for development studios to stagger content, based on priorities and needs.

 

Whether Amatangelo "moved on" or was fired is anybody's guess. What we do know is that the entire team has seen downsizes since early 2012. As far as whether or not he was replaced, maybe somewhat? Obviously, some endgame content is still being made. Then again, we never hear from anybody with that particular title. It's either Eric, Keith, and formerly Charles.

 

BioWare Edmonton is entirely committed to Anthem right now, which releases in Fall 2018. They also have DA4 in pre-production, although their creative director just left recently. In other words, BioWare Austin is going it alone, as they were created specifically to address the needs of SWTOR. That's not to say other BioWare studios haven't helped with content in SWTOR in the past, but that's not the case currently. Not to mention, all the other studios, besides Edmonton, have been shuttered.

 

I understand your point, but the reality is BioWare Austin, and more importantly EA, does not want us to see the full picture. However, again, we do know that BioWare Austin has been downsized considerably since early 2012. You can look at the current job listings for BioWare Austin and BioWare Edmonton yourself on their official website:

 

http://www.bioware.com/en/careers/?#job-listings

 

Quite a few of the current positions for BioWare Austin are ironically to help the Edmonton team with Anthem and not to provide support for SWTOR.

 

If they stop developing content for some part of the game the players who like to play it will very likely leave for good - and I would totally understand that or do that myself. This can't be the solution - you would only loose even more players.

 

BioWare removed Ilum World PvP and 8v8 ranked and replaced them with nothing. As a result, much of the PvP community left. That didn't seem to bother BioWare in the slightest, as they certainly haven't made any efforts to try and restore those features. If operations do not justify the development cost, it only makes sense to cut further development. BioWare has already done that before.

 

If you don't like them, that's okay since many don't. But they used to be the elite players who got the best of the best gear instead of the muddled games we have now that awards everyone that gear or makes it possible to achieve without doing the harder content. Its a shame to me that GC will allow players access to gear they don't need which should be available only to raiders. Now remember I don't raid currently but there's absolutely no reason to hamper the raiding community with gaining new players by removing one of the biggest motivating reasons to raid. That's a big enough method of doing away with raids as anything short of removing them to me. Just my opinion on the subject and as someone that hopes for a best in slot drop from a crate.

 

I never once stated "solely story" was the answer. I stated cutting operations and developing content for everything else was the answer. Your definition of "elite players" is interesting. From my perspective, the best players were and still are PvPers. There is a certain level of competency and knowledge you need to have to excel in PvP, and that requires knowing the pros and cons of every class and build. Raiding is easy. You memorize mechanics and you build your group based on classes that excel the most in DPS, tanking, and healing.

 

No, I don't believe the "best gear" should only be available to raiders. For one, there are hardly any raiders that actually do progression raiding left. Secondly, it makes more sense for the best gear to be obtainable in PvP over any other feature in this game. Beating other players requires more knowledge and skill than fighting NPCs that always use the same mechanics. This isn't a matter of operations not being fun. This is a matter of them being too costly to be practical for further development.

 

Ylliarus, as much as I like your comments, I must say that for once he is right about Ilum open-world PvP. This game is not made for big open activity that involve 16players or more. You can see it well on some warzone like Quesh Huttball, every 16man Operation, any WB like Ancient Threat or Revanite Walker... I had the «chance» of playing onto a rp server at the time, where almost nobody was here for pvp (you could still meet some of the best players I've seen, but they where rare), thus Ilum pvp map was alright at best. There was one time where we got 30peoples hitting each other... man, that was exactly what he said. A slideshow. This game is not ready for 16man+ content due to its optimization. Still, 8man content run smoothly and has never been a problem.

 

While we don't agree on many points, it's nice to see you aren't revising the truth about how poor this engine actually is for an MMO. I've played a lot of MMOs, and SWTOR's engine is by far the worst and the least suited for any kind of massively multiplayer content. It's beyond me how BioWare never scrapped it and went with something that actually worked while they had the chance.

 

I think you would be surprised just how many of the players who left post Kotet did so because there has been no regular story content this past year and just how many would come back if regular story was a thing again. The amount of story players this game has -- has always been grossly under-estimated. Even now there are calls for more class stories, more republic vrs empire stories, added romances and so forth. Everyday these things are requested and yet still the amount of people who play more for story then anything else is massively under estimated.

 

Indeed. I unsubbed largely because there were no plans for more monthly chapters or a subscriber reward program. I love PvP, but I can only do the same six wz maps over and over for so long before I get bored. I used to enjoy operations, but you just get tired of going through the paces of tank and spank and memorizing mechanics over and over. Story is a breath of fresh air because it's something different and the narrative and character interactions are always changing.

 

It's really tiresome to see posters in here continue to claim "story players won't stay subbed and they have short attention spans" or "most MMO players don't care about story." What's ironic is the group that's the most likely to bail on an MMO before anyone else are raiders, because they blow through raid content, get bored, and jump to the next MMO with raid content. I've seen it time and time again. Give story players something to actually experience, and they'll stick around just as long as anybody else.

 

This thread started as a long-winded whine by the OP which, by the end of his original post, ended up as a taunt of the developers, which doesn't:

 

1. Inject money into their development budget or lengthen their production cycle to address your game feature

2. Motivate the developers to suddenly change their project plans to meet your particular beef with a game feature

3. Require any comment regarding your goading taunts from the developers

 

Goading taunt:

 

You're basically whining that the dev focus on the merge not coinciding perfectly with your focus on a particular game feature is somehow a lack of production potential and capability, and, because of this mis-match between what you specifically want and what they're generally doing, you're subsequently accusing them of incompetence. How entitled you are.

 

As others have stated in this thread in so many words, both your premise and conclusion are false.

 

This comment literally does not make sense nor does it actually address any of the OP. Again, I already explained how the engineers, service team, and content team are separate entities. If you do not even have a basic understanding of development studio structure, then having a dialog with you is pointless.

 

It's not my thinking of end game content would have saved swtor. It was biowares and ohlens own words.

 

Maybe you need to read them again: http://www.pcgamer.com/bioware-gdc-panel-star-wars-the-old-republic/

 

"A fast leveling curve isn't necessarily a game-killer. DC Universe Online, for example, was chided at its launch for requiring minimal effort to hit the level cap (a relatively low 20-30 hours), but the game had a wealth of endgame content ready to go at launch, so level-capped players stayed active. According to Ohlen, the real problem for the SWTOR team, and ultimately the game itself, resulted from the team not being prepared for how fast players consume content in MMOs, a genre Ohlen pointed out that BioWare had no experience in before SWTOR."

 

They are comparing swtor to dcuo and end game content. They are not talking about solo story content being what was needed to. End game content and that is group content in every form you know - OPS, FP, PVP, etc.... along with ways to get group together easier.

 

But in the end adding a OPS here and there isn't going to save the game but adding is story sure as hell isn't and we have seen that first hand twice now.

 

We need content so desperately in all areas but story has had it's turn for a while now, it's now time to try something they have not done in a while. Worth repeating, end game group content. You might want to get on board with that because I have a feeling thats where they are heading. Will it turn out to be worth repeating? Time will tell but if it's like iokath and umbara then we will have a problem still and like relying on story, all that effort will be for nothing.

 

I already made my points on your previous issues rather clear, so I see no reason to have this cyclical discussion that will never end.

 

Those aren't Ohlen's words. That's my point. Actually read that article. You are quoting PC Gamer, which brought up DCUO. Ohlen never once mentions DCUO, or needing a wealth of endgame content at launch. You are injecting your own bias in what you wanted Ohlen to say.

 

Ilum failed because of the ability to camp spawn points, and thereby gain massive honor. This was not corrected fast enough nor were the ones doing it stripped of the honor. Many left because of this. It wasn't the engine. Just subscribers leaving because of slow reaction times and lack of corrections. Couple that with the completely rng battlemaster bags and the exodus was massive.

 

Completely false. For one, camping spawn points was corrected. Secondly, valor (this is not WoW) was rolled back on players that were valor-trading, which had nothing to do with camping spawns. I was the highest valor-ranked republic player on my server at launch. I knew players (mostly imps) that were valor-trading, and their valor was reset.

 

Yes, the HeroEngine is an absolute joke. I PvPed in Ilum from launch to the moment it closed. It was a slideshow and it was largely unplayable. Don't take my word for it though. You can listen to BioWare yourself:

 

 

It's funny listening to this now, as they promised Ilum World PvP would return. That never happened, at least not the way they described it. Ilum was re-purposed for Gree and one part of Ilum was changed to a FFA zone, like Outlaw's Den. Faction-based open world PvP has never been possible since.

 

What's probably even more sad is I'm not sure any of those guys, other than James Ohlen, even still work on SWTOR. They all either left or were fired.

[Eli_Porter]

8-man and 16-man does not "fall under the MMO umbrella." Halo has modes, such as Big Team battle, with up to 32 players. Battlefield 1 has conquest, with up to 64 players. Those are not MMOs, yet they can support more players than SWTOR ironically enough.

 

Again, you can't just change the definition to fit your liking. An FPS game supporting a 64-person match doesn't invalidate SWTOR's position as an MMO.

 

There are no "clear facts." Your argument is cyclical and contradictory. BioWare has "tried . . . and failed miserably" to create expansions focused on "endgame group content," specifically raiding. It didn't work as the subscriber numbers continued to fall anyway, which is why KOTFE happened to begin with.

 

I wasn't there when SoR and RotHC were launched so I can't comment on that. But I do know that KOTFE and KOTET were massive failures in player retention.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[Aowin]

Again, you can't just change the definition to fit your liking. An FPS game supporting a 64-person match doesn't invalidate SWTOR's position as an MMO.

 

I wasn't there when SoR and RotHC were launched so I can't comment on that. But I do know that KOTFE and KOTET were massive failures in player retention.

 

In order to be an MMO, you need to be "massively multiplayer." SWTOR hasn't had any feature remotely resembling that since Ilum World PvP was removed after three months. This MMO has always been a story-driven RPG first, with some MMOish features tacked on as optional content.

 

I've been here for every major expansion, which is why I'm telling you how ROTHC and SOR were received. They were your more "traditional" MMO expansions, and they did not perform well. Both were disappointments and were unable to prevent a constant decline of subscription numbers.

 

It was only with KOTFE that BioWare initially turned around their subscriber woes, but the expansion had no retention to keep those new numbers due poor execution of the monthly chapters. The concept of KOTFE obviously was good and worked, because it led to the highest number of subscribers in years. Rather than throwing out the baby with the bath water, BioWare needs to refine the KOTFE approach and fix what was lacking. KOTET was not the answer, and this "group content focus" this year is killing the game even faster.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Aowin

[Tadagyt]

Who exactly are 'the raiders' you are speaking of as in what kind of raiders? Progression server first people, casuals or something in between?

And who said those people still here and raiding are not also playing the rest of what the game has to offer. You seem to look at this completely black and white, a raider does only raids. And everyone is a progression raider That's just not true.

 

This.

I raid, I decorate strongholds, I'm a Theronite and Arcannite, I run dailies, FPS, craft, and from time to time I pvp. I do it all. That's why the KOTFE-KOTET era was so boring to me. There was nothing else to do, other than story.

Story in itself isn't bad, it's awesome. But we need more than just story.

 

Most of the people I know left during the KOTFE-KOTET years, and when ops passes were removed.

 

Finally. Someone that actually has a clue about game development. BioWare Austin may have seen significant layoffs over the years, but it still has different teams working on different areas (engine, service, content, etc.). That's not exclusive to BioWare. That's basic game development 101.

This is from the roadmap: " we have made a substantial investment in hardware, software, and network infrastructure to dramatically improve our service and make your experience awesome."

There may be different areas and teams, but if they spent the money in the merges, it could explain the delay.

I guess we'll never know.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Tadagyt

[Eshvara]

This.

I raid, I decorate strongholds, I'm a Theronite and Arcannite, I run dailies, FPS, craft, and from time to time I pvp. I do it all. That's why the KOTFE-KOTET era was so boring to me. There was nothing else to do, other than story.

Story in itself isn't bad, it's awesome. But we need more than just story.

Most of the people I know left during the KOTFE-KOTET years, and when ops passes were removed.

Best post of the day!

[ivanhedgehog]

Why return to OPS creating when I know/knew you know and rest suspect that the "results will be less than satisfactory financially"?

 

Why create content that can accessed by less then 100% of the game populace, when you create one that can be accessed by anyone, almost anytime they want and how they want.

when that less than 100% is 100% paying for the game you create product for them. period. it isnt even a question. the freeloaders to play dont help make payroll.

 

And before you reply that they buy cartel coins, they dont. if they did they wouldnt be f2p

[Sareeph]

Completely false. For one, camping spawn points was corrected. Secondly, valor (this is not WoW) was rolled back on players that were valor-trading, which had nothing to do with camping spawns. I was the highest valor-ranked republic player on my server at launch. I knew players (mostly imps) that were valor-trading, and their valor was reset.

 

Yes, the HeroEngine is an absolute joke. I PvPed in Ilum from launch to the moment it closed. It was a slideshow and it was largely unplayable. Don't take my word for it though. You can listen to BioWare yourself:

 

 

It's funny listening to this now, as they promised Ilum World PvP would return. That never happened, at least not the way they described it. Ilum was re-purposed for Gree and one part of Ilum was changed to a FFA zone, like Outlaw's Den. Faction-based open world PvP has never been possible since.

 

What's probably even more sad is I'm not sure any of those guys, other than James Ohlen, even still work on SWTOR. They all either left or were fired.

 

Incorrect. While they did fix the camping, they did so after many had already left in disgust. To omit that paints a false picture of the times. Yes, it is a subpar engine I'll grant you that but it was not why so many left during the Ilum incident. Secondly, I never mentioned valor trading. I was speaking about the valor gained from the spawn camping and that was not stripped from the players which caused even more people to leave the game. Over half my first guild left because of this so I remember their complaints well.

[LrdScorpio]

when that less than 100% is 100% paying for the game you create product for them. period. it isnt even a question. the freeloaders to play dont help make payroll.

 

And before you reply that they buy cartel coins, they dont. if they did they wouldnt be f2p

 

In most industry cases, "f2p" players spend more than subscription players. That is why the model has grown over the years. The issue with it, development side, is that the money coming in isn't always consistent or predictable.