An honest conversation: Future Operation development is not feasible.

[Ylliarus]

EV NiM LUL. Have you cleared every NiM Boss and all the HMs. If not then your basis of what raids are lackluster is just LUL. The point stands you hate raiding and want to see it remove. I say remove the haters.

 

Now, now, everyone has to the right to play the game their way. Yes, I vehemently disagree with the OP but they have a right to believe what they want to believe even if I or you consider it to be wrong. We don't know if they did the content they claimed they did, maybe they did, maybe they're lying, we don't know. So we should leave everyone in their worth of course while we agree or disagree and provide our arguments and statements

[DanNV]

Game populations don't decrease for no reason. Operations and their inability to be valued, replayable content are largely to explain the downturn in the population. It has arguably always been the weakest feature for SWTOR, largely because creating operations is so time-consuming and difficult.

 

You might want to go back and look at the game's history, what has worked and what hasn't. From launch, every time they have failed to produce operations as end game content, the game has lost a substantial number of players. 1.0, 4.x, 5.x are all examples of that and all prove the point. Every time they have relied on story to get the game through, they've lost a large percentage of players. It's easy to see, I'm just surprised BW keeps making the same mistakes over and over.

[FerkWork]

Now, now, everyone has to the right to play the game their way. Yes, I vehemently disagree with the OP but they have a right to believe what they want to believe even if I or you consider it to be wrong. We don't know if they did the content they claimed they did, maybe they did, maybe they're lying, we don't know. So we should leave everyone in their worth of course while we agree or disagree and provide our arguments and statements

 

Yes but it's like saying all vegetables suck if they haven't tried nothing but beets. There's no way to be an accurate judge of carrots. Plus just being one at a time doesn't make them an expert either. I'm just tired of their circular upside down logic.

Edited October 15, 2017 by FerkWork

[Toraak]

I don't think that Operations are a content more difficult to do than others. Story is the content that needs a lot of works, because it needs cutscene with actual conversation for 8 different class that have both gender... 16 voice actor needed in total, with other interactions, other voice actor, new character to design, scenario to implement...

Flashpoint are also difficult, they need actual mechanics with three modes of balance (Story/Veteran/Master). Graphics needs to also be good and the environment must be great in order for peoples to actually enjoy the FP. There is also actual cutscene with conversations that need to be implemented...

 

I could go on for a long time for each and every content. The result would be the same, it still demands work.

Actually, BW doesn't have what it takes to produce any kind of decent content. They can produce content, sure, like they did with Iokath, with Umbara or with the last operation. But overall the result will be really less than satisfying due to the lack of peoples in charge of development. For what I've seen they're only able to keep up with CM items, because it's the only thing that bring any form of cash. If you want them to stop Operations because it takes too much ressource, then let's stop doing solo content as well, so that the two peoples in charge of designing content can focus on FP only so that everyone will be "happy". I thought that everybody agreed on this on the other post. There is no "best" content for this game. Stop delivering one type of content and you lose a whole part of your playerbase, whatever the type of content is.

 

I sure wouldn't agree to drop solo and operation content in place for FP's. Honestly there are mainly players I know of who are solo or operation players that don't bother to step foot in FP's. I know for myself I don't care for 4 person group content at all. I got burned out on it when 1.2 came out with GF. by the time 3.0 came out, I was done with them permanently.

[Ylliarus]

You might want to go back and look at the game's history, what has worked and what hasn't. From launch, every time they have failed to produce operations as end game content, the game has lost a substantial number of players. 1.0, 4.x, 5.x are all examples of that and all prove the point. Every time they have relied on story to get the game through, they've lost a large percentage of players. It's easy to see, I'm just surprised BW keeps making the same mistakes over and over.

 

This exactly this.

 

Yes but it's like saying all vegetables suck if they haven't tried nothing but beets. There's no way to be an accurate judge of carrots. Plus just being one at a time doesn't make them an expert either. I'm just tired of their circular upside down logic.

 

As much as I agree with you in this regard, the fact remains they do have the right to delude themself if that is what they want to do. We call it them deluding themself, they call it their truth. It becomes an issue when they start claiming their truth to be the one and only truth.

[DanNV]

It definitely worked for KOTFE, which had the largest amount of subscribers for SWTOR in years.

 

Who promptly left. The story quality was so-so at best. The end game content was non-existent. The story players who showed up, played it and left. The end game players mostly left because there was no endgame. (Same mistakes as at launch.) Your premise is flawed and disproved by this game's own history.

[supertimtaf]

Every time they have relied on story to get the game through, they've lost a large percentage of players. It's easy to see, I'm just surprised BW keeps making the same mistakes over and over.

 

Because every time it wasn't the same team that worked on this.

New team replace the old one, says "we're gonna do better than the others". Still, they don't actually look at what have worked and what has not. Typical of a live project who has seen multiples team. It's also one of the reason why coding on this game is so difficult. Imagine an artist who tries to paint a house. Then he stop half way, somebody look at the non-finished painting and says "I'll finish it". Multiply this ten times. You'll finish with a painting that looks more like frankenstein rather than an actual representation of the house.

[Quraswren]

Operations are the only thing that will save this game imo. Group content is essential to an MMO, and that has ALWAYS been this games weakness.

 

That is correct and ohlen said as much in an interview when the game was going F2P.

 

Talked about how they expect gamers to be in the story for long periods of time and suddenly gamers were consuming once and done story content faster than they ever believed and then got to end game and had little to nothing to do.

 

http://www.pcgamer.com/bioware-gdc-panel-star-wars-the-old-republic/

 

That is similar to now. The reason why is the bulk of content we have is old and stale and no matter how bioware down levels everyone or places a new tier of gear in old content. It will always be old and stale rehashed. That kind of content has never been good for any MMO and gamers tend to dislike that rehashed content as well. Worthless use of the money they pay.

 

It takes NEW and worth repeating content. Which is what makes their decision to do story only for so long all the more stupid. If we hope for things to turn around in any way, they are best to get back to group content. Doesn't mean they can forgot story but you can't totally side track group content and hope to be successful.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Quraswren

[Eshvara]

You and I are talking about two separate things. I'm referring to in-game cutscenes. You are referring to the Blur Studio trailers.

 

Even then, your point is moot because you made a false assumption that BioWare is using its budget for SWTOR to fund those trailers. That is very unlikely. EA, the publisher, provides the studio with a budget for its marketing campaign. Not to mention, that kind of marketing is important to provide exposure to get people to come and play the game.

 

It definitely worked for KOTFE, which had the largest amount of subscribers for SWTOR in years.

 

People get excited because of the cinematics, come into the game do the story and stay for what? KoTFE's and Kotets's content hasn't exactly been that good in comparison to the older expansions like SoR etc.

The way EA advertises SWTOR reminds me a lot of Ted from breaking bad who had to get a new car to promote his career/company that didn't have all that much to show for.

 

I know there's a set amount of budget for swtor and the Blur cinematics may or may not be part of that, but whatever is being spent on advertising, I feel like the cinematic outshine the actual game, and while they do look great and get people talking, it's all seeming to be temporarily.

 

I also didn't say BW decides to take a part of their budget for cinematics, whatever EA puts into marketing which for Kotet was 6m for the blur cinematic was not important enough to put into the game.

Excessive marketing for a game that won't be able to live up to its "hype" if you want to call it that.

 

The game is still fun enough for me however, but that doesn't mean there are no flaws in how the game is handled. I just wonder where all the people went and why.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Eshvara

[Khaleijo]

There is also the tiny little detail that to do ops (and WZ) is the only activity ingame that forces you to keep your subscription running. That is locked behind a active subscription.

You can do story after becoming a preferred player, you can still do FPs, Uprisings everything ingame except of operations and WZ (okay for regular WZ there is a way to circumvent the restriction). At the same time those gated activities are also those you run the gear treadmill for to be competitive.

 

Another detail, raiders tend to be organised in social groups, guilds, etc. These social groups usually also have the effect to keep players playing although there are content droughts or things they are not totally conform with. Because a big chunk of their fun comes from doing things with their group, in addition to what the game content itself provides.

With the new ops, while coming slow, enough players of my guild returned to run with two raid groups again, our community players that don't do regular operations enjoy not being alone any more. There is activity in guild chat, on voice chat, with activities, all off them from raids to leveling alts. So keeping large group content active also keeps a lot of guilds active that keep players here to enjoy themselves even if not all of them are particularly interested in operations.

 

The more fast jump in and out without any commitment and extremely solo friendly the game becomes, the faster players leave once there is something not to their liking, the more total solo players you have. That are gone as fast as they came, because the fun the game provides is all they have.

 

 

A lot of non raiding people looked at the first chapters of Kotfe and then were gone as paying customers until all were released.

Though everyone raiding or playing pvp with a more serious approach, had to keep his subscription during the whole time just to hacve access to their favourite activity. So to speak these are the more reliable customers if you are able to keep their interest. (As Ops passes were payed with CC/real money by someone even if the player using them might have bought them with ingame currency, I count these too as forced to pay to play what you like.)

 

With 5.0 again, operations and pvp are still gated behind the paywall of an ongoing subscription, this time,because there still is no new content, the subscription is also enforced by the huge grind of GC. You don't really need the command crate gear anywhere in bolstered FPs for GSF, Dailies, story and stuff but you need it in higher difficulty operations and pvp.

But the players didn't liked to be strung along again. As someone wrote elsewhere, imagine GC in combination with a lot of new content, few would have ranted against it. (Just compare it to those Legendary weapon in Wow Legion, its a huge grind too, but with new stuff to do. While of course people might prefer less grind, they still do it as part of the "new things to do" package.)

 

In the end BW is going where the money is, that they doing Ops again has no other reason that this part of the game promises enough return to make that effort.

the two years of more or less only story content and stuff the OP seems to think is easily made during 4.0/ early 5.0 did not sustain the game well enough with paying customers or there wouldn't have been a change back to larger group scale.

If the story approach had been such a success it wouldn't have been scrapped. Same with Star fortress and Uprisings, it was not what (enough) players wanted and thus kept subscribing for.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Khaleijo

[supertimtaf]

There is also the tiny little detail that to do ops (and WZ) is the only activity ingame that forces you to keep your subscription running. That is locked behind a active subscription.

You can do story after becoming a preferred player, you can still do FPs, Uprisings everything ingame except of operations and WZ (okay for regular WZ there is a way to circumvent the restriction). At the same time those gated activities are also those you run the gear treadmill for to be competitive.

 

Another detail, raiders tend to be organised in social groups, guilds, etc. These social groups usually also have the effect to keep players playing although there are content droughts or things they are not totally conform with. Because a big chunk of their fun comes from doing things with their group in, addition to what the game content itself provides.

With the new ops, while coming slow, enough players of my guild returned to run with two raid groups again, our community players that don't do regular operations enjoy not being alone any more. There is activity in guild chat, on voice chat, with activities, all off them from raids to leveling alts. So keeping large group content active also keeps a lot of guilds active that keep players here to enjoy themselves even if not all of them are particularly interested in operations.

 

The more fast jump in and out without any commitment and extremely solo friendly the game becomes, the faster players leave once there is something not to their liking, the more total solo players you have. That are gone as fast as they came, because the fun the game provides is all they have.

 

 

A lot of non raiding people looked at the first chapters of Kotfe and then were gone as paying customers until all were released.

Though everyone raiding or playing pvp with a more serious approach, had to keep his subscription during the whole time just to hacve access to their favourite activity. So to speak these are the more reliable customers if you are able to keep their interest. (As Ops passes were payed with CC/real money by someone even if the player using them might have bought them with ingame currency, I count these too as forced to pay to play what you like.)

 

With 5.0 again, operations and pvp are still gated behind the paywall of an ongoing subscription, this time,because there still is no new content, the subscription is also enforced by the huge grind of GC. You don't really need the command crate gear anywhere in bolstered FPs for GSF, Dailies, story and stuff but you need it in higher difficulty operations and pvp.

But the players didn't liked to be strung along again. As someone wrote elsewhere, imagine GC in combination with a lot of new content, few would have ranted against it. (Just compare it to those Legendary weapon in Wow Legion, its a huge grind too, but with new stuff to do. While of course people might prefer less grind, they still do it as part of the "new things to do" package.)

 

In the end BW is going where the money is, that they doing Ops again has no other reason that this part of the game promises enough return to make that effort.

the two years of more or less only story content and stuff the OP seems to think is easily made during 4.0/ early 5.0 did not sustain the game well enough with paying customers or there wouldn't have been a change back to larger group scale.

If the story approach had been such a success it wouldn't have been scrapped. Same with Star fortress and Uprisings, it was not what the players wanted and thus kept subscribing for.

 

I think this says everything.

Nicely explained

[Aowin]

Who promptly left. The story quality was so-so at best. The end game content was non-existent. The story players who showed up, played it and left. The end game players mostly left because there was no endgame. (Same mistakes as at launch.) Your premise is flawed and disproved by this game's own history.

 

They "left" because of bad pacing in the monthly chapters (most of them being filler). The concept was fine. The execution was not. There was "endgame," from star fortress, to eternal championship, to a new wz map. The "endgame players," specifically raiders, had already left years ago. Story is the reason this game exists. It still surprises me how little many seem to understand that.

 

That is correct and ohlen said as much in an interview when the game was going F2P.

 

Talked about how they expect gamers to be in the story for long periods of time and suddenly gamers were consuming once and done story content faster than they ever believed and then got to end game and had little to nothing to do.

 

http://www.pcgamer.com/bioware-gdc-panel-star-wars-the-old-republic/

 

That is similar to now. The reason why is the bulk of content we have is old and stale and no matter how bioware down levels everyone or places a new tier of gear in old content. It will always be old and stale rehashed. That kind of content has never been good for any MMO and gamers tend to dislike that rehashed content as well. Worthless use of the money they pay.

 

It takes NEW and worth repeating content. Which is what makes their decision to do story only for so long all the more stupid. If we hope for things to turn around in any way, they are best to get back to group content. Doesn't mean they can forgot story but you can't totally side track group content and hope to be successful.

 

Someone always comes back to this article and takes it out of context. James Ohlen never stated story was the problem and why the game failed at launch. The problem was that BioWare didn't realize how fast the player base would consume the story content. It was not feasible for them to make regular story updates to meet player consumption.

 

This is why the game lost most of its player base. It had little to do with the lack of endgame content, which was even stated by BioWare multiple times during pre-launch as being "optional." This game failed because there wasn't enough story, and it was impossible for BioWare to update eight individual class stories fast enough. It certainly didn't help matters when 3/4s of the player base unsubscribed after three months.

 

People get excited because of the cinematics, come into the game do the story and stay for what? KoTFE's and Kotets's content hasn't exactly been that good in comparison to the older expansions like SoR etc.

The way EA advertises SWTOR reminds me a lot of Ted from breaking bad who had to get a new car to promote his career/company that didn't have all that much to show for.

 

I know there's a set amount of budget for swtor and the Blur cinematics may or may not be part of that, but whatever is being spent on advertising, I feel like the cinematic outshine the actual game, and while they do look great and get people talking, it's all seeming to be temporarily.

 

I also didn't say BW decides to take a part of their budget for cinematics, whatever EA puts into marketing which for Kotet was 6m for the blur cinematic was not important enough to put into the game.

Excessive marketing for a game that won't be able to live up to its "hype" if you want to call it that.

 

The game is still fun enough for me however, but that doesn't mean there are no flaws in how the game is handled. I just wonder where all the people went and why.

 

That's a matter of opinion. I thought SOR was a terrible expansion. Not because of its structure, but the quality of content. The story was abysmal. The flashpoints were largely subpar. The dailies were boring as always. The operations were nothing to brag about. KOTFE, by comparison, had a very good story that had pacing problems, had monthly updates of new content, had subscriber rewards that encouraged sticking around, gave us a brand new wz map that was great, and provided neat additions such as the Eternal Championship. I stay subbed the entire time for KOTFE, especially for the HK Bonus Chapter. I did not do that for any other expansion for this game.

 

I agree with you that EA should invest more capital into BioWare's development rather than overly-glamorous PR trailers. Unfortunately, I don't make the calls at EA. Most players probably left and unsubscribed out of boredom with nothing to do. That's why I unsubscribed. I don't find dailies, a couple raid bosses here and there, and subpar flashpoints to be all that compelling of a reason to play this game.

 

[snip]

 

Only one person actually has to be subbed to play an infinite amount of wzs. The others in the party do not. Raiding, obviously, does require a subscription. Of course, most of the raiding community left years ago due to no new content. There aren't that many subscribers left, and obviously the new raid isn't bringing in a lot of players either. The game is still largely dead.

 

Story was a success. The issue is retention. Instead of improving that aspect of the structure, BioWare scrapped it for an approach that they tried before and failed (a focus on group content in ROTHC and SOR). That didn't work then. It's not going to work now. KOTFE was the biggest launch for an expansion they've had to date. Obviously, they did something right. It makes far more sense to analyze what went wrong with that expansion, then scrap the entire system for something they know hasn't worked in the past.

[Eshvara]

That's a matter of opinion. I thought SOR was a terrible expansion. Not because of its structure, but the quality of content. The story was abysmal. The flashpoints were largely subpar. The dailies were boring as always. The operations were nothing to brag about. KOTFE, by comparison, had a very good story that had pacing problems, had monthly updates of new content, had subscriber rewards that encouraged sticking around, gave us a brand new wz map that was great, and provided neat additions such as the Eternal Championship. I stay subbed the entire time for KOTFE, especially for the HK Bonus Chapter. I did not do that for any other expansion for this game.

 

I agree with you that EA should invest more capital into BioWare's development rather than overly-glamorous PR trailers. Unfortunately, I don't make the calls at EA. Most players probably left and unsubscribed out of boredom with nothing to do. That's why I unsubscribed. I don't find dailies, a couple raid bosses here and there, and subpar flashpoints to be all that compelling of a reason to play this game.

 

You can dislike the content they provide and dislike the story, but the expansion as a whole still had more to offer than Kotet and KoTFE, especially kotfe. When was the last time we actually had a decent planet? They kind of tried with Iokath, but it's nothing like Yavin. It took them forever to finally give group players an ops. That's not okay for an mmo.

And I don't even like ops.

 

Though I should note, I do think we're heading into a better direction since Keith.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Eshvara

[Aowin]

You can dislike the content they provide and dislike the story, but the expansion as a whole still had more to offer than Kotet and KoTFE, especially kotfe. When was the last time we actually had a decent planet? They kind of tried with Iokath, but it's nothing like Yavin. It took them forever to finally give group players an ops. That's not okay for an mmo.

And I don't even like ops.

 

Though I should note, I do think we're heading into a better direction since Keith.

 

As I said, I didn't mind the structure of SOR. However, due to staffing cuts and a rapid schedule, doing something like SOR again was not possible. BioWare pivoted back to a story focus because ROTHC and SOR did not stop the constant decline of subscribers. KOTFE was an attempt at rebooting what was a dying MMO, and it worked, somewhat. Its initial response was incredibly positive, and many liked the return focus to story.

 

The problem is the story was ruined and pointlessly drawn out in the monthly chapters, and there wasn't enough incentive to remain subscribed. A couple of tweaks could have prevented the massive drop off rate in subscriptions from happening, had BioWare structured the story in a more appropriate fashion.

 

Again, ops are a dead-end feature for this game. BioWare should focus on what is reasonable and will actually sustain this game. Ops content is too costly and barely appeals to anyone still playing the game (most raiders left). The Producer on SWTOR is nothing more than a glorified manager. He has nothing to do with content creation or direction the game takes. That's up to the creative director, which I'm assuming is still Charles Boyd.

[supertimtaf]

They "left" because of bad pacing in the monthly chapters (most of them being filler). The concept was fine. The execution was not. There was "endgame," from star fortress, to eternal championship, to a new wz map. The "endgame players," specifically raiders, had already left years ago. Story is the reason this game exists. It still surprises me how little many seem to understand that.

 

Woah, Star Fortress and EC as end game content

You're saying that these solo activities that last 10minutes are end game content ? This is a MMO, end-game content for a MMO is not something you do in 10minutes in solo on the hardest difficulty available.

 

As for Odessen, you clearly didn't read players feedback about it. When it came out everybody was angry. The map was too big, there was a bug that killed players randomly, it was rng based and not skill based. It was a disaster, hence why peoples asked for a new wz that was NOT like Odessen (we will get one that is based on the Alderaan ruleset, devs also understood why it failed).

 

As for your argument that «raiders are long gone»... I don't think you've beed playing recently. General chat is just filled with demands for raids, raiding guilds who are recruiting for their third or fourth roster... swtor raiding community did lose a big part of its player when 4.0 came out, just after everybody unsubbed due to the lack of endgame content (and not the joke you're calling endgame content. This isn't worthy of a MMO).

It was at this moment that the servers began to die (most of them). Since this, peoples came back, because a new raid was announced, or new peoples took their place and formed the new raid community. Sure, most of the old ones aren't here anymore, but raiding still have times before dying on this game. It isn't enough to say «raiders left way before 4.0» without proof.

Raiders left in 4.0 because there was no interesting new content. Everybody has seen this, as an example, French servers dropped from 70peoples on fleet at peak time to 6 peoples. Yeah, 6, I clearly remember seeing this. Only one of all three managed to regain players, the other two still are struggling to have more than 20 peoples on the fleet.

 

It is not «raid» that have killed this game, it's the lack of content. Producing a content that can be done by yourself in 10 minutes (star fortress) or 1hour (KOTFE) is not how you keep peoples in a MMO, even if this one is centered around story. Story doesn't mean always «by yourself on a pretty corridor killing waves of trashmob». Story also includes multiplayer oriented content. This includes Operations, FP, PvP...

 

You're saying that the pacing of KOTFE is what killed it. Do you know why ? Because it had nothing else to do after. You finished your chapters, it took 3 hours. Now what ? There is nothing, no replayability whatsoever to this.

 

You subbed for a whole month and got 3hours of solo gameplay. There was nothing else to do at the time, so peoples left. It's as simple as that. Even if it was paced correctly, or even if we would have gotten every chapters at once nothing would have changed. Again, the problem is that they tried to implement a solo game into a MMO, which is a genre that requires to always keep the player busy.

Edited October 15, 2017 by supertimtaf

[Quraswren]

SNIP....

 

Someone always comes back to this article and takes it out of context. James Ohlen never stated story was the problem and why the game failed at launch. The problem was that BioWare didn't realize how fast the player base would consume the story content. It was not feasible for them to make regular story updates to meet player consumption.

 

This is why the game lost most of its player base. It had little to do with the lack of endgame content, which was even stated by BioWare multiple times during pre-launch as being "optional." This game failed because there wasn't enough story, and it was impossible for BioWare to update eight individual class stories fast enough. It certainly didn't help matters when 3/4s of the player base unsubscribed after three months.

 

Ans someone always tries to make it sound less that what it actually is.

Story could not carry the game. It's once and done content and even worse now that it's one story for all. At least back then the class stories were better and felt worth repeating. One story for all doesn't.

 

Combine that with what else is said. There wasn't enough end game content. Thats NOT story content. End game group content and he specifically say what was needed and what wasn't there. That being Group finder and NOT story modes. That being EV and only one OPS.

 

Yes, bioware screwed up on how fast players would consume content and because of that they failed in one of the most crucial parts of an MMO - end game group content. It doesn't take a leap of logic to see what he's talking about and it's end game group content that was missing and how to better get those groups together.

 

The game failed because they thought story could carry the game longer and they failed to make enough end game content. That is a direct connection to the problem now. They assumed story would carry the game. Assumed one story for all and having repeat chapters would get people to keep doing the same story and in turn doing thesame old stale end game content we have been doing as they worked to rehash it with down leveling. That again is a failure as gamers hate rehashed content and always have.

 

It takes New and worth repeating end game group content. Not just story.

[Aowin]

Woah, Star Fortress and EC as end game content

You're saying that these solo activities that last 10minutes are end game content ? This is a MMO, end-game content for a MMO is not something you do in 10minutes in solo on the hardest difficulty available.

 

As for Odessen, you clearly didn't read players feedback about it. When it came out everybody was angry. The map was too big, there was a bug that killed players randomly, it was rng based and not skill based. It was a disaster, hence why peoples asked for a new wz that was NOT like Odessen (we will get one that is based on the Alderaan ruleset, devs also understood why it failed).

 

As for your argument that «raiders are long gone»... I don't think you've beed playing recently. General chat is just filled with demands for raids, raiding guilds who are recruiting for their third or fourth roster... swtor raiding community did lose a big part of its player when 4.0 came out, just after everybody unsubbed due to the lack of endgame content (and not the joke you're calling endgame content. This isn't worthy of a MMO).

It was at this moment that the servers began to die (most of them). Since this, peoples came back, because a new raid was announced, or new peoples took their place and formed the new raid community. Sure, most of the old ones aren't here anymore, but raiding still have times before dying on this game. It isn't enough to say «raiders left way before 4.0» without proof.

Raiders left in 4.0 because there was no interesting new content. Everybody has seen this, as an example, French servers dropped from 70peoples on fleet at peak time to 6 peoples. Yeah, 6, I clearly remember seeing this. Only one of all three managed to regain players, the other two still are struggling to have more than 20 peoples on the fleet.

 

It is not «raid» that have killed this game, it's the lack of content. Producing a content that can be done by yourself in 10 minutes (star fortress) or 1hour (KOTFE) is not how you keep peoples in a MMO, even if this one is centered around story. Story doesn't mean always «by yourself on a pretty corridor killing waves of trashmob». Story also includes multiplayer oriented content. This includes Operations, FP, PvP...

 

You're saying that the pacing of KOTFE is what killed it. Do you know why ? Because it had nothing else to do after. You finished your chapters, it took 3 hours. Now what ? There is nothing, no replayability whatsoever to this.

 

You subbed for a whole month and got 3hours of solo gameplay. There was nothing else to do at the time, so peoples left. It's as simple as that. Even if it was paced correctly, or even if we would have gotten every chapters at once nothing would have changed. Again, the problem is that they tried to implement a solo game into a MMO, which is a genre that requires to always keep the player busy.

 

Quite a few flashpoints also have a solo player modes. Does that mean flashpoints are not "endgame content" either?

 

That's interesting. Odessen is my favorite WZ other than Huttball. Sounds to me like you are using your opinion as fact. We don't need another Alderaan clone if it's just going to mimic Hypergate or Novare Coast, which I think are the worst warzone maps in the game.

 

Again, trying to tell me what an "MMO" is. When I started playing MMOs, raids weren't even a staple. The term changes and evolves over time. The only thing that constitutes an MMO is a "massively multiplayer game with a persistent world." Anything else is literally open for interpretation. Nobody even cared about raiding until Everquest, and really WoW.

 

Guilds spam for members to raid, pvp, quest, conquest, etc. I didn't say no one did raids. I stated that raiders (progression raiders and the folks who only care about raiding) largely aren't here anymore. No, they didn't return to the game either. There are plenty of MMOs that do raiding far better. Why play TOR? Actual raiders don't.

 

Most of BioWare single player games are known for having huge amounts of replay value because of the story. Check out KOTOR, Jade Empire, Dragon Age Origins, Mass Effect. KOTFE and KOTET faltered because your choices largely change nothing, sabotaging replay value. That can be fixed if the writing is better and choices are played through in a meaningful way.

 

SWTOR, truthfully, has always been a "solo game" with some MMO features tacked on. The class stories were what made this game stand out, and the only feature most will even praise about this game. The PvP has always been a mess, and the raiding has been inconsistent and largely dead. This game never had a solid structure for a traditional MMO experience, because that's not why it was created.

 

Ans someone always tries to make it sound less that what it actually is.

Story could not carry the game. It's once and done content and even worse now that it's one story for all. At least back then the class stories were better and felt worth repeating. One story for all doesn't.

 

Combine that with what else is said. There wasn't enough end game content. Thats NOT story content. End game group content and he specifically say what was needed and what wasn't there. That being Group finder and NOT story modes. That being EV and only one OPS.

 

Yes, bioware screwed up on how fast players would consume content and because of that they failed in one of the most crucial parts of an MMO - end game group content. It doesn't take a leap of logic to see what he's talking about and it's end game group content that was missing and how to better get those groups together.

 

The game failed because they thought story could carry the game longer and they failed to make enough end game content. That is a direct connection to the problem now. They assumed story would carry the game. Assumed one story for all and having repeat chapters would get people to keep doing the same story and in turn doing thesame old stale end game content we have been doing as they worked to rehash it with down leveling. That again is a failure as gamers hate rehashed content and always have.

 

It takes New and worth repeating end game group content. Not just story.

 

It wouldn't be nearly an issue if the chapters had more replay value and we continued to have the monthly chapter approach with subscriber rewards. We could never complain about never having content because we would get something every single month (with a new wz map or fp sprinkled in on occasion).

 

Again, EV and KP (only Bonethrasher was available at launch) were optional content. They weren't ready at release because they were not a priority. It was optional content. I will admit BioWare should have at least squashed the bugs in EV, but that was never the focus. BioWare didn't even promote EV, the first raid, until four months before the game released. Most of the pre-launch marketing for SWTOR was dedicated to story.

 

The problem is you equate "endgame group content" to only being raids or dungeons, which it is not. PVE content, in particular, is notorious for having terrible replay value. It's why a lot of MMOs will focus on PVP instead, because it has far better replay value and better player retention. Honestly, had BioWare had a structure back then for monthly chapters for the eight class stories, I think this game would be in a vastly different position today.

 

The game failed because there was no way to continue the eight individual class stories in a reasonable manner and losing 3/4s of the player base in three months sealed the game's fate. Your revisionist history of "more endgame group content would have saved TOR at launch" will never be true because SWTOR was never that kind of game.

 

Adding a raid here and there is not going to save this game.That's not why most gamers even bought SWTOR to start. If all anybody was after was raiding, WoW, FFXIV, and plenty of other MMOs do raiding far better.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Aowin

[Thruine]

Back when I first got into MMOs a raid was actually a raid. 40 people all logged on in one spot for one thing in a game. I don't know if I've even seen that many people in one spot for anything. Raiding has changed but the fun of figuring out the mechanics and who should be doing what remains. I don't care for the time it takes (which probably explains why 40 man raids are a thing of the past). Even 25 man raids were too time consuming. If we've really come to the point where 12 man raids take too much time and effort on anyone's part (player and developer) I can see its time to let them slip into the past. But I don't think those that like raiding are ready to let it go.

 

Raids seem an essential part of every MMO I know of. People like that type of content and for some that's all they care for. I just can't imagine any game just giving up on them completely because they might be difficult. Doing story for all these different classes and alignments is difficult and we know how it does when that's not well done. But I would never think its time to let that go. Having a real story is a rather new thing since MMOs started out with just the bare bones of one that you might not even know it existed. I played EQ for years without knowing there was a story there. I just did stuff because there was stuff to do.

 

I raided and liked it all the way through EQ and WoW. Eventually I just couldn't commit the time to just sit in one spot while a raid was happening. i have to leave the keyboard for all kinds of things now. But if they didn't take too long I wouldn't mind doing them again. But it would be a terrible thing to have any MMO to give up raiding. It wouldn't seem like a MMO any longer.

[VegasTheLost]

The problem lies not exactly what OP says, more so that BWA and EA are not quite sure what they want from this game. One thing that none can't deny is that Star Wars is an endless pit of money. The last 30 years proved that and the next 30 will as well. So having a Star Wars game in hand with subscription model and all that stuff would indicate that the studio have the tools to shovel the money from the pit. Not quite as we can see. Solution? BWA and EA have to decide what to do with this game, plain and simple. If they want to have a space barbie simulator, than they should pull the plug and forget about an online game and subscriptions and all that since it is not worth it. And if they want an MMO, they have to set up the basics, they need to have a viable budget and staff. You cant make money without spending some but more importantly spend it smart. Easyier said than done yes. I for one would happily pay monthly for a good MMO with various content and I'm sure I'm not the only one. All in all a firm stand from the studio could solve a lot of issues and turn almost everything around. The money is there to grab it, just think about it, a Star Wars MMO.

[Nebdar]

.... BioWare invested heavily into raids from launch through SOR, and the results were less than satisfactory financially. .....

 

Why return to OPS creating when I know/knew you know and rest suspect that the "results will be less than satisfactory financially"?

 

Why create content that can accessed by less then 100% of the game populace, when you create one that can be accessed by anyone, almost anytime they want and how they want.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Nebdar

[Transcendent]

This suggests a team that is no longer suited or capable of creating raid content in a reasonable or efficient manner. The team is simply too small and does not have the capacity to give raiders what they want, when many were begging for at least two new raids anyway (not one raid pieced together slowly).

 

So, what's the answer? Scrap future operation development. It's too costly. It's too time-consuming. It's not realistic with the current state that BioWare Austin is in. Focus on content that's easier to develop (story, wz, gsf, fps, sh). That obviously won't please the raiders, but it's quite obvious creating new operations is beyond the scope of what BioWare Austin is capable of doing.

 

I think perhaps you're looking into this a little too much, especially in light of your own personal bias on raid content Aowin. Do you know how many developers are currently working on new raid bosses? 1? 2? 3? more? No?

 

It isn't stopping development in other areas of the game, we're still seeing flash points, a new warzone map, strongholds, story (ymmv), a gsf map coming out later next month. It's not as though it's stopping other content being produced.

 

Equally said, if someone new or a new team is working on their first operation, and they're taking their time to ensure the boss fights are balanced and mechanics are interesting, how is this a bad thing after ToS or Ravagers? Especially when you consider the bugs those two operations had when launched (Underlurker fight and a major gear exploit, let alone the difficulty level for most players).Essentially I see the new bosses as a reboot, a new team working to ensure that the content they do produce is playable by most players (regardless if that is their preference of type of content).

 

On the other side of the arguement, excluding GC and the gearing issue when 5.0 launched, one of the primary factors in the drop off of players that I've personally seen is from the removal of operation passes and lack of new operations for 2+ years while the focus was on story content. I've yet to set foot into the new operation, I'm waiting for the entire operation to be released first, I'd hate to see development on raiding stopped, and I'm not primarily a raider.

 

Catering to all types of players, while having a solid story foundation is one of the major appeals of SWTOR as an MMO. Removing or letting one type of content slide, however small a percentage of players anyone may think plays that content, possibly isn't the best way forward.

[DenariusJay]

The problem with catering to story players is they don't stick around.

 

Repeatable end game content (raids, dungeons) and pvp is what keeps MMO's thriving. Story players binge play, then move on to something else. They gripe about end game content being too hard, and strictly stay out of pvp and refuse to participate in any grind for gear. These are not the people you want to cater too if you want a longstanding MMO. But BW gambled with 4.0-5.0 and catered to SM players and the results are what we have now. Content drought and server merges.

 

Story is important. But don't dedicate an ENTIRE expansion to pure story. TWO expansions is a great sin.

 

Add story, I like it here and there....but don't go full story. I think SoR was a good example of a proper xpac - it had decent story and raids along with new fp, planets and daily areas. It advanced the game in many ways. They just needed to keep doing that and game would've been fine.

 

BW went full retard. Neva' go full retard.

Edited October 15, 2017 by DenariusJay

[ivanhedgehog]

snip

That comparison doesn't work, and I'll explain why. BioWare has had a dedicated structure built for storytelling for the past 15 years. They have an incredibly efficient pipeline for VO, dialogue creation, and cutscenes. None of that is difficult for BioWare to make, as the game was built from the ground up with that in mind.

 

Operations, on the other hand, is a whole different ball of wax.

 

bioware austin has never had this structure. Bioware canada had it but they are now battling evil in another dimension. bioware at this point is bw in name only, they are a wholly owned appendage of EA.. Story takes a long time to create, esp. if it has VO. story only types are complaining that the story in 4.0/5.0 sucks, they whine about it for pages. The only way to satisfy many of them would be bringing back the 8 separate stories, and that will never happen. Bw has pruned back their dev studio to bare bones. expect delays and shortcomings or be prepared for disappointment.

[Aowin]

Back when I first got into MMOs a raid was actually a raid. 40 people all logged on in one spot for one thing in a game. I don't know if I've even seen that many people in one spot for anything. Raiding has changed but the fun of figuring out the mechanics and who should be doing what remains. I don't care for the time it takes (which probably explains why 40 man raids are a thing of the past). Even 25 man raids were too time consuming. If we've really come to the point where 12 man raids take too much time and effort on anyone's part (player and developer) I can see its time to let them slip into the past. But I don't think those that like raiding are ready to let it go.

 

Raids seem an essential part of every MMO I know of. People like that type of content and for some that's all they care for. I just can't imagine any game just giving up on them completely because they might be difficult. Doing story for all these different classes and alignments is difficult and we know how it does when that's not well done. But I would never think its time to let that go. Having a real story is a rather new thing since MMOs started out with just the bare bones of one that you might not even know it existed. I played EQ for years without knowing there was a story there. I just did stuff because there was stuff to do.

 

I raided and liked it all the way through EQ and WoW. Eventually I just couldn't commit the time to just sit in one spot while a raid was happening. i have to leave the keyboard for all kinds of things now. But if they didn't take too long I wouldn't mind doing them again. But it would be a terrible thing to have any MMO to give up raiding. It wouldn't seem like a MMO any longer.

 

I think it's worth pointing out that every MMO does not have raids. It was largely an Everquest invention that was perfected by WoW, which created this concept of a "theme park MMO." While many theme park MMOs (known as WoW clones) will attempt to follow that same formula, sandbox MMOs (pre-WoW) largely do not.

 

Raiding is not a requirement in order to be an MMORPG. It is just a staple that most of the AAA MMOs will latch on because it's "expected." Yet, most of these MMOs have terrible raid design because they are tacked on. SWTOR is an example of a WoW clone that added raids at the last minute "just because."

 

Raids are a huge time investment. Especially if you do progression raiding, it may as well be a second job. Most people don't have that kind of time, or aren't willing to invest that kind of time. It's a niche feature, which is why heavy investment in it isn't financially responsible.

 

It's why WoW scrapped 40 man raids years ago, and why it's common for raids to just include eight players now. I'm not averse to raids, if they are actually done well. To this day, I will still argue SWG had some of the best designs for raids in any MMO. My problem with SWTOR is its raids aren't good, have poor replay value, and inevitably become a waste of resources. A repetitive tank and spank with occasional new mechanics thrown in is not good raid design.

 

I think it would be good for MMOs, in general, and especially SWTOR, to distance itself from what is expected of a "theme park MMO." BioWare can make SWTOR whatever it wants. It doesn't need to be like every other "MMO." Story was the major selling point that set this apart from everything else. Story, alone, can't save this game. However, it still needs to be one of the primary components for this game to succeed. I just don't see that also being true for raiding, which is costly and time-consuming in terms of development.

 

The problem lies not exactly what OP says, more so that BWA and EA are not quite sure what they want from this game. One thing that none can't deny is that Star Wars is an endless pit of money. The last 30 years proved that and the next 30 will as well. So having a Star Wars game in hand with subscription model and all that stuff would indicate that the studio have the tools to shovel the money from the pit. Not quite as we can see. Solution? BWA and EA have to decide what to do with this game, plain and simple. If they want to have a space barbie simulator, than they should pull the plug and forget about an online game and subscriptions and all that since it is not worth it. And if they want an MMO, they have to set up the basics, they need to have a viable budget and staff. You cant make money without spending some but more importantly spend it smart. Easyier said than done yes. I for one would happily pay monthly for a good MMO with various content and I'm sure I'm not the only one. All in all a firm stand from the studio could solve a lot of issues and turn almost everything around. The money is there to grab it, just think about it, a Star Wars MMO.

 

Unfortunately, the days of receiving a "good MMO" is likely over. This game had its chance and it was floundered six years ago. I don't ever expect this game to truly recover, but it can at least go a direction that makes sense given what the studio is now, which is a shell of its former self.

 

Why return to OPS creating when I know/knew you know and rest suspect that the "results will be less than satisfactory financially"?

 

Why create content that can accessed by less then 100% of the game populace, when you create one that can be accessed by anyone, almost anytime they want and how they want.

 

Poor leadership. BioWare Austin has teetered back and forth not knowing what to do with this game. From its inception, it has always suffered from an identity crisis. That is truer now more than ever.

 

I think perhaps you're looking into this a little too much, especially in light of your own personal bias on raid content Aowin. Do you know how many developers are currently working on new raid bosses? 1? 2? 3? more? No?

 

It isn't stopping development in other areas of the game, we're still seeing flash points, a new warzone map, strongholds, story (ymmv), a gsf map coming out later next month. It's not as though it's stopping other content being produced.

 

Equally said, if someone new or a new team is working on their first operation, and they're taking their time to ensure the boss fights are balanced and mechanics are interesting, how is this a bad thing after ToS or Ravagers? Especially when you consider the bugs those two operations had when launched (Underlurker fight and a major gear exploit, let alone the difficulty level for most players).Essentially I see the new bosses as a reboot, a new team working to ensure that the content they do produce is playable by most players (regardless if that is their preference of type of content).

 

On the other side of the arguement, excluding GC and the gearing issue when 5.0 launched, one of the primary factors in the drop off of players that I've personally seen is from the removal of operation passes and lack of new operations for 2+ years while the focus was on story content. I've yet to set foot into the new operation, I'm waiting for the entire operation to be released first, I'd hate to see development on raiding stopped, and I'm not primarily a raider.

 

Catering to all types of players, while having a solid story foundation is one of the major appeals of SWTOR as an MMO. Removing or letting one type of content slide, however small a percentage of players anyone may think plays that content, possibly isn't the best way forward.

 

As I indicated in the OP, we know that the endgame team has been downsized substantially (the studio has been seeing layoffs since early 2012). KOTFE and KOTET paint a pretty clear picture that whatever team is left is rather minimal. When asked why BioWare couldn't do more than a story chapter each month, Ben Irving stated along the lines that the entire team was working on each chapter just to get them out the door on time.

 

That doesn't paint the picture of a team that has the flexibility and manpower to do all sorts of content simultaneously. That gives the impression of a team that is understaffed and overworked, which would explain why so many patches and updates have bugs (some game-breaking) that take weeks, if not months, to fix.

 

The Yavin IV warzone map isn't "new." It was an abandoned feature from SOR that is now being revisited. Strongholds are not hard to develop, especially when they are as small, underwhelming, and are literally recycling previously-used assets, just like the Manaan stronghold. These flashpoints are very short and the story bits also being underwhelming and brief. Again, everything we have received has been small bites here and there. That speaks to a team that is at its limits.

 

You can assume this is a "new team" wanting to take things slow, as long as you realize that is your assumption and not based on any actual facts. To the contrary, I don't believe BioWare Austin is in a position to hire many employees, let alone those who lack MMO experience. If they bring anybody on board at this point, it's likely veterans to the industry. They can't afford to deal with rookies trying to figure out how to develop for a six year old MMO on an obsolete engine.

 

It's not the first time BioWare has removed features. Ilum World PvP. 8v8 ranked warzones. I loved those features, yet BioWare removed them anyway. It's not out of the realm of possibility that they would stop developing future operations, especially if they don't have the means to do so. For the health and stability of the game, it makes sense to focus on what they can do easily and in a reasonable manner. There is nothing easy or reasonable about operation development. It is without a doubt the hardest content to make in an MMO. This is the problem.

 

The problem with catering to story players is they don't stick around.

 

Repeatable end game content (raids, dungeons) and pvp is what keeps MMO's thriving. Story players binge play, then move on to something else. They gripe about end game content being too hard, and strictly stay out of pvp and refuse to participate in any grind for gear. These are not the people you want to cater too if you want a longstanding MMO. But BW gambled with 4.0-5.0 and catered to SM players and the results are what we have now. Content drought and server merges.

 

Story is important. But don't dedicate an ENTIRE expansion to pure story. TWO expansions is a great sin.

 

Add story, I like it here and there....but don't go full story. I think SoR was a good example of a proper xpac - it had decent story and raids along with new fp, planets and daily areas. It advanced the game in many ways. They just needed to keep doing that and game would've been fine.

 

BW went full retard. Neva' go full retard.

 

Story players "don't stick around" if you don't give them a reason to stick around. Chapters with poor replay value and a lack of varying choices is a problem with execution, not the player. If raiders or PvPers received new content that was sub-par and not fun, they wouldn't stick around either. Lets end this nonsense narrative that story players somehow are the least reliable source of players.

 

Another fallacy. What keeps players in MMOs could be anything from frequent updates, to a strong community, or even quality content. It doesn't have to necessarily be raids or PvP. I played SWG for five years, and it rarely got major content updates for most of it. Why did players "stick around"? Because old school MMOs were built on emergent, player-driven gameplay and communities creating engrossing content.

 

Had SOR actually been a huge financial success, BioWare would have continued that approach. It was not, which is why KOTFE happened in the first place. I do not understand this incessant need to gloss over the history of this game and conveniently ignore things that do not align with your opinion. BioWare has tried the focus solely on "endgame group content" various times over the years (primarily ROTHC and SOR) and it did not work well. We wouldn't even be having this conversation right now, and the game wouldn't be in such dire straights, if what you said actually made sense.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Aowin

[Eli_Porter]

Uprisings were meant to be casual, more accessible versions of flashpoints, not operations.

 

Yet they're less accessible due to the level requirement, and some Vet/Master uprisings are harder than most SM/HM operations.

 

You claim the "MMO playerbase enjoys raiding," but how many raiders are actually left? There had not been a single raid in two years, and the one that's being developed is less than ideal.

 

I think what the "MMO playerbase enjoys" is content, and this game has nothing due to being over-extended trying to make a single raid.

 

The MMO playerbase enjoys Massively Multiplayer Online content. Limiting your development to 4-man and solo content is not only proven to hurt the game, but also against the very foundations of the genre this game is advertised as.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Eli_Porter