Arcann romance appreciation thread! Haters keep out please!❤

[Iheaca]

I'm still a Pontentium Heretic and Proud of it.

It is a good theory. Would you consider that this is what Darth Marr and Satele Shan ended up believing in? It is hard to say. Personally I am totally in favour of considering the Force as a whole. Considering it a polarized does not really work as I tried to stated if a few days ago. There is always a moment when something becomes illogical.

 

However, there is a key element that does not work for me.

They claimed that what others called the light side of the Force was actually just the Force itself, which was inherently good. This was backed up by the fact that Ashla, the ancient name of the Force, came later to describe the light side. What others therefore called the dark side was a perversion of the Force, twisted by those who used it.

Why would the Force be inherently good and not purely neutral?

 

And if the potential of being dark or light resides in the individual, what is it exactly linked to? Actions? Thoughts? Spirit/inner nature? And linked to that, how can the fact that some individuals wield the Force for doing bad things totally consciously and others surrender to it and let the Force drive the way? It would not have anything to do with the Force then, only a difference between people in control and others who just can't handle their emotions.

[Asmodesu]

My train of thought majorly derailed sadly, not surprising considering I'm struggling with writing currently to the point I nearly deleted all my work yesterday out of frustration. but my line of thinking with the force has always been along the lines of the following ideas/theories/thoughts.

The Force itself is not light or dark, therefore when I say light-sided Sith Warrior I mean by actions or choices, plus an inner self/spirit/soul, not the Force itself or using the Jedi's techniques to use the Force (considered "light side").

Sith training hinging on strong emotions of paranoia, hate, rage, anger, lust which can cause a ton of obsession, paranoia, and PTSD issues. On top of the harrowing acolyte trials that help desensitize them to violence, murder, torture etc.

Jedi training focusing on meditation, calm-ness, trying to be devoid of emotion. Not really my focus this side of it though.

This is mostly from observing the stories of non-force users said to become dark (how Satele describes Jace, multiple other soldiers npcs), and of fallen jedi, or of how sith gain their corrupted looks. The latter of which I attribute to being a visual scarring to show one's true self at one point or another. Like Thanaton's was when murdering his servant, with flashes from visions prior to (comic).

Edited July 26, 2018 by Asmodesu

[JakRoanin]

Energy that is made up of the cycle of life is inherently good because the natural cycle of life IS good. When things disrupt that cycle are "bad." So, for example, if a Jedi stops a Sith ritual that perverts the natural cycle of life, by using Force Grip to immobilize him. Even though dogma treats it as a DS power, a potentium heretic would say, "No, Force grip isn't Dark, it was used to promote the natural cycle of life. A dogmatic Jedi would scream "You're on the dark path."

[AureliaSulis]

Energy that is made up of the cycle of life is inherently good because the natural cycle of life IS good. When things disrupt that cycle are "bad." So, for example, if a Jedi stops a Sith ritual that perverts the natural cycle of life, by using Force Grip to immobilize him. Even though dogma treats it as a DS power, a potentium heretic would say, "No, Force grip isn't Dark, it was used to promote the natural cycle of life. A dogmatic Jedi would scream "You're on the dark path."

 

Not necessarily. I would suggest that disorder, not order is the natural state of the universe (and I play LS on my Imperial characters).

 

Definition of entropy from https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/entropy

 

2 a : the degradation of the matter and energy in the universe to an ultimate state of inert uniformity

Entropy is the general trend of the universe toward death and disorder. —James R. Newman

[JakRoanin]

Well that is a whole other debate, as I believe that order is the defining principle of the universe.

[Iheaca]

Energy that is made up of the cycle of life is inherently good because the natural cycle of life IS good. When things disrupt that cycle are "bad." So, for example, if a Jedi stops a Sith ritual that perverts the natural cycle of life, by using Force Grip to immobilize him. Even though dogma treats it as a DS power, a potentium heretic would say, "No, Force grip isn't Dark, it was used to promote the natural cycle of life. A dogmatic Jedi would scream "You're on the dark path."

I do have the same opinion as AureliaSulis'. I do not see why the energy of life would be necessarily good. For me it does not care at all about good or bad which are notions that are artificial and tremendously subjective. Energy of life simply is, therefore would tend to be neutral.

I think that chaos and order are both valid as simply two different ways to percieve events.

[Paulsutherland]

*Surprise Order of Zildrog Attack!*

 

I bet none of you were ready!

[Asmodesu]

I do have the same opinion as AureliaSulis'. I do not see why the energy of life would be necessarily good. For me it does not care at all about good or bad which are notions that are artificial and tremendously subjective. Energy of life simply is, therefore would tend to be neutral.

I think that chaos and order are both valid as simply two different ways to percieve events.

 

Life requires both chaos and order balance, so in my opinion why wouldn't the Force too? xD

[Seireeni]

I do have the same opinion as AureliaSulis'. I do not see why the energy of life would be necessarily good. For me it does not care at all about good or bad which are notions that are artificial and tremendously subjective. Energy of life simply is, therefore would tend to be neutral.

I think that chaos and order are both valid as simply two different ways to percieve events.

 

There are several references in the lore about the Force having a will, though. It's not simply energy that is there, it's something more. If it does have a will, it means it's, in some level, making decisions, and those decisions can be good.

 

I don't think the Force is necessarily good or evil, as those are sometimes subjective terms anyway (and I don't think it's conscious enough to be considered either). I do feel that a big difference between using light side and using dark side is that light side users treat the Force as a companion and listen to it, while dark side users treat it as a servant and overpower it's will with their own. Light side users, those who do listen to the Force, seem to be good more often than those who do not, so to me that does suggest the Force is naturally at least leaning towards good. That, or that the dark side does make you crazy, but I dislike the latter idea -- "this character is evil because mystical stuff made them evil" is not something I wish to see in fiction, I find it boring.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Seireeni

[Iheaca]

There are several references in the lore about the Force having a will, though. It's not simply energy that is there, it's something more. If it does have a will, it means it's, in some level, making decisions, and those decisions can be good.

 

I don't think the Force is necessarily good or evil, as those are sometimes subjective terms anyway (and I don't think it's conscious enough to be considered either). I do feel that a big difference between using light side and using dark side is that light side users treat the Force as a companion and listen to it, while dark side users treat it as a servant and overpower it's will with their own. Light side users, those who do listen to the Force, seem to be good more often than those who do not, so to me that does suggest the Force is naturally at least leaning towards good. That, or that the dark side does make you crazy, but I dislike the latter idea -- "this character is evil because mystical stuff made them evil" is not something I wish to see in fiction, I find it boring.

 

From Darth Marr in Visions in the Dark:

The Force is a paradox. It empowers and imprisons. It destroys and unites. It binds the galaxy together and tears people apart. It has a will but needs a Commander.

 

If you take something like nature, you could easily give it kind of a will if left untouched. It could be said (and it is in the core of a lot of ancient lore) that it mixes good and bad things to keep a balance. Life and death, events allowing things to grow, disasters that act as moments of reset... Good and bad things alike, and some people would probably say that nothing happens by chance, which, again, is inscribed in a lot of ancient lore too.

 

I really think that good and evil are two notions that are too subjective and too contextual. For instance, is killing someone good? We would all say it is not. But what about someone who is has a deadly desease or is deadly wounded, is killing them pity and mercy or evil? (I don't want anyone to give answers here, it is a question of personal values) Is killing a bloody tyrant a good thing or not? What if this tyrant surrendered already?

 

I don't necessarily think that what you describe means that either the Force leans towards good or else that the dark side makes you crazy. I think that craziness might come from indulging too much into bad feelings and bad actions. It becomes a thirst and people need more and more to the point of loosing grasp on reality. From how serial killers are often described, this is basically something that is stated quite often, so it can be noted in real like, why not in the way things work with Force users too...

[JakRoanin]

I just follow Kyle Katarn, "Abilities are neither good nor evil, its how you use them."

[Seireeni]

From Darth Marr in Visions in the Dark:

The Force is a paradox. It empowers and imprisons. It destroys and unites. It binds the galaxy together and tears people apart. It has a will but needs a Commander.

 

If you take something like nature, you could easily give it kind of a will if left untouched. It could be said (and it is in the core of a lot of ancient lore) that it mixes good and bad things to keep a balance. Life and death, events allowing things to grow, disasters that act as moments of reset... Good and bad things alike, and some people would probably say that nothing happens by chance, which, again, is inscribed in a lot of ancient lore too.

 

I really think that good and evil are two notions that are too subjective and too contextual. For instance, is killing someone good? We would all say it is not. But what about someone who is has a deadly desease or is deadly wounded, is killing them pity and mercy or evil? (I don't want anyone to give answers here, it is a question of personal values) Is killing a bloody tyrant a good thing or not? What if this tyrant surrendered already?

 

I don't necessarily think that what you describe means that either the Force leans towards good or else that the dark side makes you crazy. I think that craziness might come from indulging too much into bad feelings and bad actions. It becomes a thirst and people need more and more to the point of loosing grasp on reality. From how serial killers are often described, this is basically something that is stated quite often, so it can be noted in real like, why not in the way things work with Force users too...

 

While there are things, such as the ones you mentioned, that aren't always good or bad, there are things that are always considered bad. Like killing a bunch of innocent people without no good reason. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there have been any serial killer types using the light side, and idea of one doesn't sit well with me. There are jedi who commit terrible deeds, but they are usually portrayed as having fallen to the dark side and not realizing it, or having fallen, not caring about it and hiding it from other jedi. Yet that kind of people exists, people who are delusional enough to calmly rationalize why it's their right to kill all sorts of people, even if no one else would agree. This makes me feel the Force is not completely neutral -- there are things you can't do with the light side because it's against the will of the Force, and if you want to murder a bunch of children or something, you have to make the Force do your bidding aka use the dark side.

 

Then again, it all comes down to whether you believe all morality be subjective, or if some of it is objective. If one does hold the belief that all morality is subjective, then nothing -- especially something like the Force -- cannot be good or evil, since it would be up to an individual to decide that. From that perspective, the Force is not good or evil, it's just there. Light side is not good, it's just a way of interacting with the Force in a way that's always aligned with the will of the Force (whatever that is, good or evil or anything between), and dark side is not evil, it's a way of using the Force while disregarding it's will.

 

i think I agree with you when it comes to dark side users going crazy, though. I've always felt that it's not the dark side that's the problem, it's the type of person who's likely to fall to the dark side, and the things you need to do in order to become more powerful. It's a tricky thing to follow your passions and use your emotions as fuel to gain more power, but still keep your mind intact and behavior unaffected. I also feel that's why the Sith Empire has more reasonable Sith than, in example, there are in the era of the movies. Those Sith aren't the type who'd be likely to fall to the dark side, they simply view it's power not as a goal but as a tool to use to get to their goals, so they manage to resist the temptation to go overboard.

[Iheaca]

While there are things, such as the ones you mentioned, that aren't always good or bad, there are things that are always considered bad. Like killing a bunch of innocent people without no good reason. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there have been any serial killer types using the light side, and idea of one doesn't sit well with me. There are jedi who commit terrible deeds, but they are usually portrayed as having fallen to the dark side and not realizing it, or having fallen, not caring about it and hiding it from other jedi. Yet that kind of people exists, people who are delusional enough to calmly rationalize why it's their right to kill all sorts of people, even if no one else would agree. This makes me feel the Force is not completely neutral -- there are things you can't do with the light side because it's against the will of the Force, and if you want to murder a bunch of children or something, you have to make the Force do your bidding aka use the dark side.

 

Then again, it all comes down to whether you believe all morality be subjective, or if some of it is objective. If one does hold the belief that all morality is subjective, then nothing -- especially something like the Force -- cannot be good or evil, since it would be up to an individual to decide that. From that perspective, the Force is not good or evil, it's just there. Light side is not good, it's just a way of interacting with the Force in a way that's always aligned with the will of the Force (whatever that is, good or evil or anything between), and dark side is not evil, it's a way of using the Force while disregarding it's will.

 

i think I agree with you when it comes to dark side users going crazy, though. I've always felt that it's not the dark side that's the problem, it's the type of person who's likely to fall to the dark side, and the things you need to do in order to become more powerful. It's a tricky thing to follow your passions and use your emotions as fuel to gain more power, but still keep your mind intact and behavior unaffected. I also feel that's why the Sith Empire has more reasonable Sith than, in example, there are in the era of the movies. Those Sith aren't the type who'd be likely to fall to the dark side, they simply view it's power not as a goal but as a tool to use to get to their goals, so they manage to resist the temptation to go overboard.

Oh don't get me wrong, I was not trying to say that killing innocent people could be good in certain circumstances. Only that even the act of killing could be good or bad depending on the who, what, why or how.

 

Jedi don't consider themselves bad if they kill a sith, right? Or if killing someone can save many other lives.

 

So I still tend to think that neutrality is the norm and that the actions and their relation to the circumstances make it good or bad.

 

I am not that sure that the Sith in the Sith Empire are necessary more reasonable than later on. I simply think that those who let themselves get caught by the dark side too much and becoming crazy have a far smaller life span than those who remain more moderate. Call it natural selection.

[Seireeni]

Oh don't get me wrong, I was not trying to say that killing innocent people could be good in certain circumstances. Only that even the act of killing could be good or bad depending on the who, what, why or how.

 

Jedi don't consider themselves bad if they kill a sith, right? Or if killing someone can save many other lives.

 

So I still tend to think that neutrality is the norm and that the actions and their relation to the circumstances make it good or bad.

 

I am not that sure that the Sith in the Sith Empire are necessary more reasonable than later on. I simply think that those who let themselves get caught by the dark side too much and becoming crazy have a far smaller life span than those who remain more moderate. Call it natural selection.

 

Fair enough. ^^ And I didn't mean to say the Sith in this period are all more reasonable -- what I was trying to say (and should have probably phrased it differently!) is that there are Sith, such as Lana or Marr, who seem reasonable and not that crazy or evil at all, despite having been using the dark side for a long time.

[Iheaca]

Fair enough. ^^ And I didn't mean to say the Sith in this period are all more reasonable -- what I was trying to say (and should have probably phrased it differently!) is that there are Sith, such as Lana or Marr, who seem reasonable and not that crazy or evil at all, despite having been using the dark side for a long time.

And then we go back to one of the first questions. How comes that they can do it then? Be powerful in the force but not get crazy. I guess that it is all about control, then.

And, considering that we now stated that the Force was probably not dark by itself, are they really wielding the dark side? Or are they just sith believing that what they wield is dark force?

[Seireeni]

And then we go back to one of the first questions. How comes that they can do it then? Be powerful in the force but not get crazy. I guess that it is all about control, then.

And, considering that we now stated that the Force was probably not dark by itself, are they really wielding the dark side? Or are they just sith believing that what they wield is dark force?

 

"Powerful" is somewhat subjective, too. Is Lana powerful in the Force? Well, depends on who you compare her to. Even when it comes to characters like Darth Marr, he might be powerful, but if we're going to start talking about the most powerful Force users in the history of the galaxy, Marr's not gonna be in the shortlist for that. While these individuals have some power, I do feel that a dark side user who doesn't view power as their ultimate goal won't reach their full potential. Ever. They are powerful while being dark sided and rational, but they could be even more powerful -- and crazier.

 

Not to mention that there's the issue of your midichlorian count, which can give you an edge against someone who's devoted but naturally not as powerful.

 

As for if it's the dark side of the Force, or if the act of controlling the Force in a certain way is what gets labeled as dark side... I don't know, and quite frankly, I don't care. In my opinion, the difference is philosophical, and there's no right answer. Especially since we're talking about something that doesn't actually exist.

[DuskIsNotAmused]

-Laughs- Is it bad that I can hear my SW's response to this discussion in my head

[DuskIsNotAmused]

For those of you on the PTS server, what do you think of the changes? I know a few of you were disappointed with the Rishi SH, does it help?

[Seireeni]

I liked it already, but the Overlook is a very nice addition, aaaaand they've added more hooks to the areas I was hoping to get more hooks in! (the viewing area of the first pvp arena, the round room next to it and the secret cave)

 

EDIT: And for anyone who's not in the PTS but is interested, here's some screenshots I took from the apartment. (Sorry, didn't think of taking screenies before putting down decos )

Edited July 29, 2018 by Seireeni

[Iheaca]

-Laughs- Is it bad that I can hear my SW's response to this discussion in my head

Let us hear him/her!

[DuskIsNotAmused]

I liked it already, but the Overlook is a very nice addition, aaaaand they've added more hooks to the areas I was hoping to get more hooks in! (the viewing area of the first pvp arena, the round room next to it and the secret cave)

 

EDIT: And for anyone who's not in the PTS but is interested, here's some screenshots I took from the apartment. (Sorry, didn't think of taking screenies before putting down decos )

That's good to hear

 

Let us hear him/her!

It's not overly philosophical, my SW is a more pragmatic applied knowledge type

 

`-Frustrated sound- Act as you need to and know that the force, the galaxy, will do the same.` - My SW. A promise and threat in one, he's thrifty like that .

[DuskIsNotAmused]

So there's been something I've been wondering about for a bit, Arcann doesn't feel able to go to Nathema because of the effect Valky had on the place. He thinks it will undo the precarious balance that the Voss ritual helped restore. So does that also mean that Ziost is out? Have I been taking him to missions on the wrong planet?

Also is it specifically life consumed places, or are heavily darkside planets a bad idea too. I know that Odessen is fine and that's a equal light/dark planet.

 

It made me start thinking about stronghold locations, the capitals for Imp/Rep are probably not a good idea for him, given recent history (if they have enough time between taking shots at each other of course...). Nar Shaddaa is probably fine , Tatooine to. Manaan ...I don't see why there would be a particular problem there, Yavin is a strongly darkside planet like Oricon (and one assumes Korriban) could pose a problem. Umbara... no idea, haven't even had a look at this one, but I don't think the planet itself poses any issues? Plus you are on a train (or so I'm told), -groans- I'm getting travel sick just thinking about it -has Assassin's Creed Syndicate flashbacks- .

The upcoming Rishi one looks like it would be fine.

-Hmmmmmmm-

[Iheaca]

So there's been something I've been wondering about for a bit, Arcann doesn't feel able to go to Nathema because of the effect Valky had on the place. He thinks it will undo the precarious balance that the Voss ritual helped restore. So does that also mean that Ziost is out? Have I been taking him to missions on the wrong planet?

Also is it specifically life consumed places, or are heavily darkside planets a bad idea too. I know that Odessen is fine and that's a equal light/dark planet.

 

It made me start thinking about stronghold locations, the capitals for Imp/Rep are probably not a good idea for him, given recent history (if they have enough time between taking shots at each other of course...). Nar Shaddaa is probably fine , Tatooine to. Manaan ...I don't see why there would be a particular problem there, Yavin is a strongly darkside planet like Oricon (and one assumes Korriban) could pose a problem. Umbara... no idea, haven't even had a look at this one, but I don't think the planet itself poses any issues? Plus you are on a train (or so I'm told), -groans- I'm getting travel sick just thinking about it -has Assassin's Creed Syndicate flashbacks- .

The upcoming Rishi one looks like it would be fine.

-Hmmmmmmm-

My understanding is that Nathema is a specific case as it is a Void in the Force, which Ziost is not (at least in the Wookiepedia description). I do not really know why Arcann says that the place is not good for him, so here is a 5 minutes theory. What if the Voss ritual had put somehow kind of a barrier in him keeping the dark side at bay instead of cleaning it away? In that case, this barrier might perhaps suffer from Force Void as it might be cancelled or decreased by it.

I would not necessarily care about other planets but why not if you wish to see it this way. We could perhaps imagine that being forced to spend too much time in a planet full of dark Force.,

 

Which makes us go back to the previous discussion as we did not include the planets in it. If there are planets that bath into one side of the Force and others, such as Zakuul and Odessen, which are balanced, where is it coming from and why? Urgh, I surrender...

[DuskIsNotAmused]

My understanding is that Nathema is a specific case as it is a Void in the Force, which Ziost is not (at least in the Wookiepedia description). I do not really know why Arcann says that the place is not good for him, so here is a 5 minutes theory. What if the Voss ritual had put somehow kind of a barrier in him keeping the dark side at bay instead of cleaning it away? In that case, this barrier might perhaps suffer from Force Void as it might be cancelled or decreased by it.

I would not necessarily care about other planets but why not if you wish to see it this way. We could perhaps imagine that being forced to spend too much time in a planet full of dark Force.,

 

Which makes us go back to the previous discussion as we did not include the planets in it. If there are planets that bath into one side of the Force and others, such as Zakuul and Odessen, which are balanced, where is it coming from and why? Urgh, I surrender...

I can't tell if your enjoying hypothesising or about to put your head through a wall if there's a specific point you want to talk though (for writing or whatever) I'm game As the gambling ads say `when it stops being fun, stop`. Guess it applies to lore to

[Iheaca]

I can't tell if your enjoying hypothesising or about to put your head through a wall if there's a specific point you want to talk though (for writing or whatever) I'm game As the gambling ads say `when it stops being fun, stop`. Guess it applies to lore to

Oh I don't want to burn my brain trying to make sense of it. Plus, I have a hard time thinking about Star Wars while still being involved in my 18th century "experiment". lol