sayNih Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Stealth classes are overpowered in PVP because... Ops needs a stealth-rez when they screw up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupolus Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Learn-to-play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schoock Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 You wait untill there is about 4 seconds left for the assassin and then you start attacking the team. Forcefully splitting the Assassin from his team and giving you an advantage for no other reason than this guy being an Assassin. That's kind of opposite world. The Assassin can also re-stealth. If a team can't protect a single guy for 6 seconds, they deserve losing. And if a stealth team is approaching near the 30s timer, you'd know, because their timers are also ticking. Only if its about acidstrats and only if the outnumbering is more than 2 people. You can't do that at the start because you'd get globalled for splitting up. And if you have 2 or less people alive that Sin can find plenty of spots you won't reach in time. True, but going for acid in a 1vs1 scenario isn't hopeless to win. Shroud + Deflection + your stuns and some fine burst isn't a bad place to start. Hopeless is when you're against more than 1 people that have any idea about what they're doing, and the more people you try to troll, the less chance to pull it off. That's why the buff is remotely placed and it has a damage taken debuff on it. It's not for catching people upon regen. That's part of the class utility toolbox and shouldn't be touched. It's solely to prevent acidstrats. It doesn't really matter where you place it. Aside from people can probably still get pulled into it, there's the point of picking it up, during fight, on purpose, to find the stealther while he's trying to escape. (Not regen. Escape.) An escaping stealther is not in a particularly good condition, a debuff could be a worthy tradeoff for an easy kill. And if a team is full of ranged, they can pretty much dictate where the fight will take place, positioning to quickly get the buff when the other team is about to vanish can ruin your vanish, hence hurt stealth as an escape and maybe even give ranged an even bigger advantage, even in cases where the stealther is just legit trying to heal up. No, but it does prove as a concept and I could name several flaws with yours. So we don't really have to discuss which is the better alternative of what has been suggested so far. I just named several flaws with yours too. But of course if you take the position that your alternative is the solution, then feel free to. Just say so I stop wasting time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolixe Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Learn-to-play That would be my answer to everything in this thread except stalling for acid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolixe Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 (edited) The Assassin can also re-stealth. If a team can't protect a single guy for 6 seconds, they deserve losing. And if a stealth team is approaching near the 30s timer, you'd know, because their timers are also ticking. What.? Do you even logic bro? All you have to do is have 1 guy keep a lookout for when the Sin enters/leaves stealth, and you got all the information you need to turn the opener into your advantage against a class that is build on the founding concept that it gets the opener for free. True, but going for acid in a 1vs1 scenario isn't hopeless to win. Shroud + Deflection + your stuns and some fine burst isn't a bad place to start. Hopeless is when you're against more than 1 people that have any idea about what they're doing, and the more people you try to troll, the less chance to pull it off. Why go for acid then, if you can just go for the duel? At least then the person who deserves the win will get it. My suggestion would aid that. Yours wouldn't. Especially not if the second party alive is not a stealther. It doesn't really matter where you place it. Aside from people can probably still get pulled into it, there's the point of picking it up, during fight, on purpose, to find the stealther while he's trying to escape. You aren't going to do that if it means you have to walk all the way back to your spawn to get it first. Purely for the possibility of a stealther maybe having to escape in the next 15-20 seconds (about the time I would say the buff should last. Enough time to catch, not enough time to abuse) Leaving your team to die whilst doing that. I just named several flaws with yours too. And I weaved them away for the false flaws that they were. Edited August 31, 2017 by Evolixe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schoock Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 (edited) What.? Do you even logic bro? All you have to do is have 1 guy keep a lookout for when the Sin enters/leaves stealth, and you got all the information you need to turn the opener into your advantage against a class that is build on the founding concept that it gets the opener for free. It's still a double edged sword, we're still playing 4vs4 and not 4vs1, and the other team would still have 30s to engage. Unless you're just doing a staring contest, ofc. Why go for acid then, if you can just go for the duel? At least then the person who deserves the win will get it. My suggestion would aid that. Yours wouldn't. Especially not if the second party alive is not a stealther. Because dueling in acid is not the same as dueling without it. You aren't going to do that if it means you have to walk all the way back to your spawn to get it first. Purely for the possibility of a stealther maybe having to escape in the next 15-20 seconds (about the time I would say the buff should last. Enough time to catch, not enough time to abuse) Leaving your team to die whilst doing that. That is, of course, assuming you are fighting way away from your spawn. And yeah, I think I can pretty well guess if the stealther is going to vanish in the next 15-20s if he's being focused. Electro Net is only 10 seconds and people still often guess well when to use it. And I weaved them away for the false flaws that they were. The word you're looking for is ignored. G'night. Edited August 31, 2017 by Schoock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolixe Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 It's still a double edged sword, we're still playing 4vs4 and not 4vs1, and the other team would still have 30s to engage. Unless you're just doing a staring contest, ofc. They aren't going to engage in a 3v4 without their Sin if they know whats good for em. Because dueling in acid is not the same as dueling without it. No, exactly. And anyone with sense wouldn't argue the fact that the more deserving player would win without the acid around. That is, of course, assuming you are fighting way away from your spawn. And yeah, I think I can pretty well guess if the stealther is going to vanish in the next 15-20s if he's being focused. Electro Net is only 10 seconds and people still often guess well when to use it. If stealth detection buffs are in the spawns I guarantee you teams with stealthers will avoid fighting there like the plague. You won't be fighting anywhere near the spawn. And you won't be wanting to pick it up at a bad time because you'll take unnecessary damage. The word you're looking for is ignored. G'night. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foambreaker Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 To keep this whine up so long, someone must have gotten badly ROFLSTOMPED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schoock Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 They aren't going to engage in a 3v4 without their Sin if they know whats good for em. But why would they, ffs? Every stealther has their 30 seconds of stealth. It's either engage within 30s or stay out of sight for 6s. But fine, let's change that initial stealth is limited to 60 seconds. Better? No, exactly. And anyone with sense wouldn't argue the fact that the more deserving player would win without the acid around. As you have pointed out yourself, stealthers get their opener for free. If you're dueling under normal conditions, the enemy has some time to recover. In acid you have 10s to do more damage than you take. You have 2 hardstuns, a bugged lolslash, multiple autocrits in your opener, Shroud and Deflection to do it. There's no recovery for your enemy. Deserving is a relative concept. Exploiting the proper circumstances to defeat an opponent you couldn't handle face-to-face doesn't make it undeserved. Isn't that what stealthers are all about? If stealth detection buffs are in the spawns I guarantee you teams with stealthers will avoid fighting there like the plague. You won't be fighting anywhere near the spawn. And you won't be wanting to pick it up at a bad time because you'll take unnecessary damage. If they can enforce the location of the fight. Nevertheless, it's still an in-combat usable mechanic that's usable against stealthers (therefore weakening them), something you don't want, while mine is strictly out-of-combat that does not change, in any way, shorter stealth times that occur during a normal arena. This is the core difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolixe Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 (edited) But why would they, ffs? Every stealther has their 30 seconds of stealth. It's either engage within 30s or stay out of sight for 6s. But fine, let's change that initial stealth is limited to 60 seconds. Better? Yes, but that doesn't really solve the root of the problem that got this discussion started. Drawn out fights that pretty much never end well for the player attempting them. So.. a buff is an instant solution that can be picked up the second the problem starts taking shape. (yeah yeah.. you have to walk to it, but it sure as hell is a better solution than waiting for 60 seconds and then having 6 seconds to get to said person) As you have pointed out yourself, stealthers get their opener for free. If you're dueling under normal conditions, the enemy has some time to recover. In acid you have 10s to do more damage than you take. You have 2 hardstuns, a bugged lolslash, multiple autocrits in your opener, Shroud and Deflection to do it. There's no recovery for your enemy. Uh.. it's quite easy to circumvent all these things for a great many classes. The point is that everybody gets an equal shot. No one singular party have any advantage over the other. And if you're down 3 to 1.. your team ****ed up and you deserve to lose. End of story. Deserving is a relative concept. Exploiting the proper circumstances to defeat an opponent you couldn't handle face-to-face doesn't make it undeserved. Isn't that what stealthers are all about? Read above. If they can enforce the location of the fight. I move away from you, you either come after me or we don't fight. It might take the general population a few weeks to learn this, but they will learn. Nevertheless, it's still an in-combat usable mechanic that's usable against stealthers (therefore weakening them), something you don't want, while mine is strictly out-of-combat that does not change, in any way, shorter stealth times that occur during a normal arena. This is the core difference. The whole design around the concept is that the buff is only picked up when the stealther is drawing out an already decided fight. My prerequisites should be enough but even if I'm wrong and they are not (they are enough in example games), more could be added. Again.. I'm weaving away all your concerns with substantiated facts and you still try to push on this terrible idea of a timed stealth. At this point, with a 60 second duration my solution is better at every turn. Why are we still having this argument? Edited August 31, 2017 by Evolixe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schoock Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Why are we still having this argument? You're right, we shouldn't. You're ignoring and strawmaning my points. G'night, this time for real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolixe Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 (edited) You're right, we shouldn't. You're ignoring and strawmaning my points. G'night, this time for real. Ignoring, Straw-manning and sensible substantiated arguments aren't the same thing. You refuse to see the flaws in your idea and you refuse to recognize that my proposal is already proven not to really possess any issues. "What if we fight here, what if this happens, that happens" Thats what strawman arguments are, and the only one using them is you. Stalling for acid, that's what it solves. And that's the only thing requiring any solving as far as stealth goes. Edited August 31, 2017 by Evolixe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCnet Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Not that I don't agree that someone hiding is stealth can be frustrating, there are other things that BW should fix before worrying about this. After today's issue with them coding and patching, I'm not sure I want them messing with wzs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeCKSEgai Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 That's ok. Seeing as your not in a position to change things and nor am I it really doesn't matter. But we both know that stealth in this game right now is in the hands of classes that don't need it because they are built as if they didn't have it. Coming from both a pvp and pve raiding standpoint - it's clear you lack experience in both to make such a claim. Reminds me of a guy on my server who thought he was a lot better than he was. Would berate his team after a loss, typically blaming his team for not doing enough damage. The reality was the enemy team had healers while his did not and thus could not outlast the sustain granted by those healers. That's what its like when you complain that stealth is OP - instead of understanding the real underlying issues you place blame on something that has little effect on the real reason you lose. As far as pve - Shadows/Assassins provide little incentive for higher end raid teams because they lack team utility. They don't offer anything special, No sonic rebounder, no ballistic shield, not a single decent raid buff.... Operatives/Smuggler heals aren't as bad off but have a much harder time healing compared to sorcs/consulars or even merc/troopers. However, having someone that can stealth to break combat allows the potential of a second battle rez., so that along with their hots give them value to a raid group. And unlike the shadows, they have a real raid buff. But it's easier to blame than get better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YaxusKu Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 so i didnt read through the whole thread so i dont know if it was stated already if you dont like the stealth maybe you should roll a sniper so you can spot them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dethslovinembrac Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 All this sounds like to me is another "I don't like this class utility for x reason so nerf or get rid of it". All that ever really does it hurt the class that uses it most of the time, I main a lightning Sorc and with all of the complaining that has been done in the PVP community they are no longer viable in WZs as such (still decent in PVE though). I haven't brought my concealment op in pvp in a while though so I don't know how they are faring lately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olagatonjedi Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 How can you possibly **** up picking up a buff? The intend is to eliminate acid strats, if people can't figure out to pick up a stealth detection buff to save themselves a couple of minutes staring at a blank space they damn well deserve to lose in acid. There is a bug that has prevented me, and others, from being able to pick up the healing buffs in voidstar on numerous occasions, so the buff idea you brought to this thread has potential flaws that are already present in game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seterade Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 /popcorn. Just wanted to point out a few points coming from a 3 year assassin main. 1) Assassins do need stlth, their dps and defence/gameplay are not designed to face tank like so many non stlth classes. (See enrage def, merc dcd *facepalm* sniper dcds*fp* operative dcds *fp* mara dcds *fp* pretty much every class cept sorc and pt) 2) the new blackout system is a broken crutch. And before Exo gets on their high horse, let me explain why. Before 5.0 we had to save blackout for the right time, not only that, but snipers could detect us. Not only that but while playing deception we had to use blackout to increase our dmg reduction, we did not have a nonstop endless 15% dmg reduction just by rotating maul. last but not least, and don't try to say otherwise because stlth mains know it for a fact, in 5.0 with increased stlth utility we can stroll right up to a 30 stack sniper and he wont see us till we are 1 meter from him. 3) Im actually a fan of stlth being less effective the longer you use it. excellent nerf. game is balanced and working as intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolixe Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 (edited) There is a bug that has prevented me, and others, from being able to pick up the healing buffs in voidstar on numerous occasions, so the buff idea you brought to this thread has potential flaws that are already present in game. Not that I don't believe you but I havn't experienced this once in the past 5 years. And to the guy above me here; I already said it before.. pre 5.0 we had Phase Walk which arguably provided more "Damage Reduction" than permanent blackout ever will. So your comparison is highly flawed. Edited September 1, 2017 by Evolixe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seterade Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 Not that I don't believe you but I havn't experienced this once in the past 5 years. And to the guy above me here; I already said it before.. pre 5.0 we had Phase Walk which arguably provided more "Damage Reduction" than permanent blackout ever will. So your comparison is highly flawed. Actually. The assassin phase walk was primarily used for 1) getting the hell out of Dodge in regs/ranked or 2) it allowed a sin to get far enough to outlast a classes big dcd (enrage def/entrench/saber ward on mara ect) While it held a ton of utility for almost any situation, it was an escape, not a damage reduction. It didn't make you leave combat, it didn't heal you, it didn't even raise you def. it allowed you to run away, in which you couldn't do dmg to them either. An escape is just that, it does not equal unlimited stlth vs all classes or a nonstop 15% def. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhezvya Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 pre 5.0 we had Phase Walk which arguably provided more "Damage Reduction" than permanent blackout ever will. Yeah... that merry PW era. It was giving sins so much variability for defence and offence. Man, nothing ever upset me more in this game than PW being taken away. I'd also prefer to have blackout back as it used to be... and our force crush combo. I still love modern shadows/sins, but some sophistication is gone, man:( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magira Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 (edited) In GW2 the thief call isn't stealthed the whole time and they have to gauge the best times to use it. Sort of like Maras when they stealth. They either need to remove the permant black out feature that used to a real ability or they need to limit how long they can stay stealthed. There really is less skill required now because they can stand nearly onto of you. Before you had to time your blackout, now you can just stroll up and tap them on the shoulder without trying. Yes, this is a real disadvantage of guild wars 2 for someone who mainly plays stealth classes here. I hate it. The thief there is a rather bad stealth class anyway, a stealth-skilled mesmer or an engi with sneak gyro are getting closer to a real stealth class. Edited September 1, 2017 by Magira Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totemdancer Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 Yes, this is a real disadvantage of guild wars 2 for someone who mainly plays stealth classes here. I hate it. The thief there is a rather bad stealth class anyway, a stealth-skilled mesmer or an engi with sneak gyro are getting closer to a real stealth class. I agree, the stealth isn't long enough for the thief, it doesn't really feel like a stealth class at all. I was mainly using it as an example of how another game does it by reducing the amount of time stealthed. I certainly wouldn't want that exact system in place for stealths in swtor, but I can see the benefit of not having permant stealth. I still think the best fix is reverting Blackout to the way it was in 4.0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magira Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 I still think the best fix is reverting Blackout to the way it was in 4.0. I lived with it and could live with it again. It bothers me that I have no chance to find the enemy stealth at the Node Capping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totemdancer Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 I lived with it and could live with it again. It bothers me that I have no chance to find the enemy stealth at the Node Capping. And that's what makes it OP in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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