Please put an end to stealth trolling in ranked.

[Evolixe]

You mean the stealthlevels? Since darkswell used to give damage reduction to Blackout instead of Dark Embrace I thought thats what you meant.

 

But about the ability to detect stealthers roaming close to you.. I think that's hardly a big deal.

The only people it really aids is those that don't know how to approach people in stealth.

Ie, you can't detect a stealther behind you, even a level 1. Even if you're a Sniper on 30 stacks.

 

Those that do know this hardly ever got detected.

Anyway, if that's your worry then I think you are grossly overestimating the effects.

[olagatonjedi]

Still 1% more than you ser anonymous keyboard warrior.

Does that matter?

[Evolixe]

Does that matter?

 

Did your first post matter?

[olagatonjedi]

Did your first post matter?

It did to you, as you took time to reply

[Sargrith]

"Total Black Out system" Are you sure you know what you're talking about?

 

Permanent stealth isn't inherently overpowered and if you would take the time to actually read my post you would come to the conclusion that it makes sense.

 

Don't take my word for it though, look at the game where it's worked successfully exactly that way for over a decade.

 

In this game it pretty much is. The classes that have it don't need it to be competitive at all. If they did we would have a very different story but neither does need it, they just have it moving them from competitive to hands down stronger then others. The assassin is easy to pick on since as a class it without stealth can be shown to be stronger/as strong than other other tank possible class, either as a tank or dps. But honestly the same is true for the Op compared to the other healer possible classes. Clearly without stealth its dps builds are hands down better then the sage dps builds and even with the amazing defenses of the merc dps builds its only roll and avoid everything every 9 seconds is right up with them, and this is without ever using stealth.

 

So why do the two classes who have full time stealth even have it? They don't need it so is it just a bonus crutch for them? Seems like it honestly. Putting stealth on a timer or having it degrade over time seems fine.

[SeCKSEgai]

Just please. Stop having ranked pvp a joke. :l This is one of the reasons. Nerf stealth level over time for as long as the character stays in stealth. Stealth trolling is out of hand. Every single round today for me.

 

Ranked is a joke - but a lone survivor waiting it out in stealth is far from any of the real reasons, you know like the balancing kind.

 

In this game it pretty much is. The classes that have it don't need it to be competitive at all. If they did we would have a very different story but neither does need it, they just have it moving them from competitive to hands down stronger then others. The assassin is easy to pick on since as a class it without stealth can be shown to be stronger/as strong than other other tank possible class, either as a tank or dps. But honestly the same is true for the Op compared to the other healer possible classes. Clearly without stealth its dps builds are hands down better then the sage dps builds and even with the amazing defenses of the merc dps builds its only roll and avoid everything every 9 seconds is right up with them, and this is without ever using stealth.

 

So why do the two classes who have full time stealth even have it? They don't need it so is it just a bonus crutch for them? Seems like it honestly. Putting stealth on a timer or having it degrade over time seems fine.

 

Maybe I'm just used to competition of a higher caliber because stealth has never been hugely advantageous on harby. I mean sorcs get bubble and took the phasewalk essentially from shadows. Or the fact that you have to be visible to actually deal damage (after first strike).

 

But yes there are some folk that will hide until the timer kicks in. It's not all that different from fights where both sides are healed well and no one dies - they drag on and need the timer to end them. I have seen matches won where the stealther barely outlasted the 3 enemies looking for him. But most of the time they hide out and still lose all the same.

Edited August 31, 2017 by SeCKSEgai

[Evolixe]

It did to you, as you took time to reply

 

And you cared enough to formulate a post in the first place.

So I'll just catagorize you among the very caring "1%"

[Evolixe]

In this game it pretty much is.

 

I'm sorry I can't really take this seriously.

[Sargrith]

I'm sorry I can't really take this seriously.

 

That's ok. Seeing as your not in a position to change things and nor am I it really doesn't matter. But we both know that stealth in this game right now is in the hands of classes that don't need it because they are built as if they didn't have it.

[Evolixe]

That's ok. Seeing as your not in a position to change things and nor am I it really doesn't matter. But we both know that stealth in this game right now is in the hands of classes that don't need it because they are built as if they didn't have it.

 

I couldn't really agree less. Then again, what is to expect from someone that doesn't play the classes he judges.

[Foambreaker]

So the tl;dr is OPs team got defeated by a lone stealthier and he came here to weep.

 

Too funny.

[Evolixe]

So the tl;dr is OPs team got defeated by a lone stealthier and he came here to weep.

 

Too funny.

 

Yeah, too bad that 99% of all attempts to outnumbered acid strats end in disaster. Wasting everyones time for absolutely no reason. I hate the acid mechanic, but I hate people that try and play into practically impossible odds whilst making everyone else wait 2+ minutes even more.

 

It should not be a thing to even try.

[Schoock]

Yeah, too bad that 99% of all attempts to outnumbered acid strats end in disaster. Wasting everyones time for absolutely no reason. I hate the acid mechanic, but I hate people that try and play into practically impossible odds whilst making everyone else wait 2+ minutes even more.

 

It should not be a thing to even try.

 

True, but lots of stealthers will still do it, hell, even in regs.

 

My favourite was a premade (!) of 2 stealth that didn't reveal, at all, for a whole round. They lost.

 

Maybe a 30 second hard cap for stealth in arenas would help with the trolling?

[Evolixe]

True, but lots of stealthers will still do it, hell, even in regs.

 

My favourite was a premade (!) of 2 stealth that didn't reveal, at all, for a whole round. They lost.

 

Maybe a 30 second hard cap for stealth in arenas would help with the trolling?

 

I posted a solution on the first page. If only people would read it

[Lundorff]

Hm, ok, lets see how other games deal with this problem:

 

Oh right, they put a token buff in the map much like the ones in odessen.

Oh but they have drawsbacks from pickup. Increased danage taken, why?

 

 

 

Let's not go about re-inventing the wheel here.

A solution is already on the table and it's a good solution.

 

There are just a couple of things to take in mind so that the problem gets solved,

but no unneccesary collateral damage is done that hurts the stealth classes more than they need to be.

 

For one, people need to want to avoid picking up the buff when they don't need it to find a stealther,

so that the stealther doesn't constantly has to worry someone might have it.

"Why?" Some might wonder.. well, a higher or guaranteed failure rate on combat stealth would be epically detrimental to survivability.

 

So how do we do that? Well, add a small but significant enough damage taken boost to the person that picks it up. Not enough to cause serious harm, but enough to make someone think about picking it up first.

 

To strengthen this point, the buffs need to be inconvieniently placed so that people don't grab it by accident and don't grab it in a group fight when the game is still on.

 

 

Do all of these things correctly and acid strats will be a thing of the past without "making stealth weaker over time" because I could easily give you 10 reasons why that wouldn't work.

 

My name is stealther number 312445 and I support this message

 

But seriously it would be a welcome mechanic to avoid those asinine long arenas.

[Sargrith]

I couldn't really agree less. Then again, what is to expect from someone that doesn't play the classes he judges.

 

I don't ... wow you know that do you? I play no stealth classes...none. Well we can see you are wrong once again. But that is to be expected from someone willing to say anything to protect their advantage. See two can be snarky, but only one of us is actually right...again.

[LeglessChair]

My gut reaction to the powerup ideas ia no. I think I don't like the idea of a power up because it's going to cause a lot of headaches due to the following: having to explain to people how it works, ezplaining to someone how it works then watching them eff up, trolling and people who understand acid may be the best candidates to take it but then they will be the first to die. Tldr t is just added another skill mechanic to acid so it will make it that much more frustrating for people with less experience in acid and those playing with them.

 

In the end it either should or shouldn't be viable for stealth es to cheese acid. It looks like y all think they shouldn't. So don't complicate things imo

Edited August 31, 2017 by LeglessChair

[Schoock]

I posted a solution on the first page. If only people would read it

 

I read it and I think my solution is simpler to implement and I don't really see any downsides to it.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Schoock

[Evolixe]

I read it and I think my solution is simpler to implement and I don't really see any downsides to it.

 

I most definitely wouldn't agree. All the elements for a token buff are already in the game from Odessen and Warzones Health/Berseker packs. They just have to script the effect itself and give it a nice appearance. And it's a proven concept.

 

 

What you suggest is just total annihilation of an ability and includes consequences outside of what it's trying to fix.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Evolixe

[Evolixe]

My gut reaction to the powerup ideas ia no. I think I don't like the idea of a power up because it's going to cause a lot of headaches due to the following: having to explain to people how it works, ezplaining to someone how it works then watching them eff up, trolling and people who understand acid may be the best candidates to take it but then they will be the first to die. Tldr t is just added another skill mechanic to acid so it will make it that much more frustrating for people with less experience in acid and those playing with them.

 

In the end it either should or shouldn't be viable for stealth es to cheese acid. It looks like y all think they shouldn't. So don't complicate things imo

 

How can you possibly **** up picking up a buff?

 

The intend is to eliminate acid strats, if people can't figure out to pick up a stealth detection buff to save themselves a couple of minutes staring at a blank space they damn well deserve to lose in acid.

[Schoock]

I most definitely wouldn't agree. All the elements for a token buff are already in the game from Odessen and Warzones Health/Berseker packs. They just have to script the effect itself and give it a nice appearance.

 

And it's a proven concept.

What you suggest is just total annihilation of an ability and includes consequences outside of what it's trying to fix.

 

All elements for an effect being limited to a certain time are there, too.

 

How's limiting stealth in arenas to 30 seconds is a total annihilation of the ability and what consequences does it have?

Edited August 31, 2017 by Schoock

[Evolixe]

I don't ... wow you know that do you? I play no stealth classes...none. Well we can see you are wrong once again. But that is to be expected from someone willing to say anything to protect their advantage. See two can be snarky, but only one of us is actually right...again.

 

Having a level 70 of said class and logging it once a month isn't playing the class.

 

I on the other hand, play this stuff day in day out; Advise people on a daily basis and put myself up as a source of information for the Community and then some.

 

I have no interest in unfair advantages. Besides the fact that I don't need them, the thing is just that its no fun.

When 3.0 Hatred was a thing I put in lots of efforts and initiatives to get it down to acceptable levels, preferably without getting it gutted. Why? Because I was wrecking people left and right, even good people, and that's just dumb.

 

 

Stealth itself however, is not any part of what has ever made the Sin and Operative classes OP at anything.

And people that are good at what they do (on any class) won't argue any other way.

[Evolixe]

All elements for an effect being limited to a certain time are there, too.

 

How's limiting stealth in arenas to 30 seconds is a total annihilation of the ability and what consequences does it have?

 

The start of a game. All you have to do is wait out a stealther team in your own spawn and you'll be golden.

 

Have you ever seen what happens to an Assassin or Operative if they get caught out behind enemy lines without proper support or preparation? I can tell you it's not pretty.

 

No good Sin or OP is going to engage in a 4v1 when his team would still take several seconds to join the fight. That's an extremely good way to get into a disadvantage really fast. It would make opening together with the team nigh impossible.

 

Also it's not going to solve your issue because that stealther is just going to find a nice quiet spot far away from you to unstealth/restealth and go about his business again. Unproven concept, includes flaws. Yeah..... lets not.

 

Like I said, proven concept, stuff is there, no need to overhaul ANYTHING or reprogram ANYTHING.

Just 1 script and an animation.

 

How many reasons do you need to say "oh well, your idea is better. I hope they do something like that one day"?

Give me 1 good reason why a token buff, which has proven to work and proven to work well, would not be the choice of preference. Untill you can come up with something solid I do not expect any answer.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Evolixe

[Schoock]

The start of a game. All you have to do is wait out a stealther team in your own spawn and you'll be golden.

 

Have you ever seen what happens to an Assassin or Operative if they get caught out behind enemy lines without proper support or preparation? I can tell you it's not pretty.

 

No good Sin or OP is going to engage in a 4v1 when his team would still take several seconds to join the fight. That's an extremely good way to get into a disadvantage really fast. It would make opening together with the team nigh impossible.

 

Also it's not going to solve your issue because that stealther is just going to find a nice quiet spot far away from you to unstealth/restealth and go about his business again. Unproven concept, includes flaws. Yeah..... lets not.

 

Like I said, proven concept, stuff is there, no need to overhaul ANYTHING or reprogram ANYTHING.

Just 1 script and an animation.

 

If they're waiting it out in their spawn, the stealth team can just find a remote spot, wait out their 6 seconds to restealth and go on their business again. Noone can sit in their spawn indefinitely.

 

And restealthing in time is pretty hard if you have multiple people waiting for you to reveal. Good spots in all maps can be covered. And the more people you're trolling against, the less chance to pull it off.

 

Also, your idea isn't perfect, either. You'd trade damage taken for being able to spot vanishers. But then your team is likely outnumbering the other one by one (as one person is just gone), so the extra dmg taken might be a worthy tradeoff to fully negate any possibility of the enemy vanishing. You just ruined stealth more than I'd have.

 

And stop coming with this how much effort would it be to implement, both are simple, an additional debuff vs. an additional buff. In fact, adding mechanics that reveal any stealther in an instance seem more coding than just a remove effect buff.

 

And one more thing. Just because other games have it one way does not necessarily mean it's a better alternative.

[Evolixe]

If they're waiting it out in their spawn, the stealth team can just find a remote spot, wait out their 6 seconds to restealth and go on their business again. Noone can sit in their spawn indefinitely.

 

You wait untill there is about 4 seconds left for the assassin and then you start attacking the team.

Forcefully splitting the Assassin from his team and giving you an advantage for no other reason than this guy being an Assassin. That's kind of opposite world.

 

And restealthing in time is pretty hard if you have multiple people waiting for you to reveal. Good spots in all maps can be covered. And the more people you're trolling against, the less chance to pull it off.

 

Only if its about acidstrats and only if the outnumbering is more than 2 people.

You can't do that at the start because you'd get globalled for splitting up.

And if you have 2 or less people alive that Sin can find plenty of spots you won't reach in time.

 

Also, your idea isn't perfect, either. You'd trade damage taken for being able to spot vanishers. But then your team is likely outnumbering the other one by one (as one person is just gone), so the extra dmg taken might be a worthy tradeoff to fully negate any possibility of the enemy vanishing. You just ruined stealth more than I'd have.

 

That's why the buff is remotely placed and it has a damage taken debuff on it. It's not for catching people upon regen. That's part of the class utility toolbox and shouldn't be touched. It's solely to prevent acidstrats.

 

And one more thing. Just because other games have it one way does not necessarily mean it's a better alternative.

 

No, but it does prove as a concept and I could name several flaws with yours.

So we don't really have to discuss which is the better alternative of what has been suggested so far.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Evolixe