Class Changes: Hatred Assassin / Serenity Shadow

[Torvai]

Not sure where you got the creeping terror numbers from...Eradicate hit + dot is the highest source of damage available to a hatred sin in a single target situation. A buff would be to convert it from energy to internal damage.

It's not about damage per use, but about total damage dealt (i.e. why Lightning Bolt as a Lightning Sorc is a bigger source of damage than say Lightning Flash, even though it hits less). It's because Eradicate is used MORE.

 

So, according to your logic autoattacks are the highest source of damage for my Sin because I use it more than anything else?:rolleyes:

Edited June 13, 2017 by Torvai

[Kazz_Devlin]

Damage buffs are nice but hatred survivability is still an issue for PvE. This spec has no AoE DR and doesn't have a lot of passive DR like deception does which makes it prone to massive damage spikes in a lot of tougher PvE content. I know this is all subject to change and nothing is final but I feel you should look into this specs defensive cooldowns.

 

Survival was never the issue. If you adhere to the trinity Tank|DPS|Heals then your DPS classes should be glass cannons (i.e. They do high dmg but die rather quickly) If you boost survival and DPS you end up getting the issue currently plaguing the game now which is an over influx of merc's, snipers and sorc heals. Why because these have become I win classes because they break the trinity. If merc's want added survival then their DPS needs to be reduced because you are no longer a DPS spec your a hybrid (Tank/Dps). Same applies to sniper they may have needed a bit of tweaking in defenses prior to 5.0 but as usual they went to far. Snipers DPS was already high and prior to 5.0 they were in essence true to the trinity they did high dps but were also glass cannons not so any more. Sorc class is a complete joke now more peeps are playing healer just because its a pseudo semi-tank spec which requires 3 or four players to kill. This shouldn't happen Heals should never out last pure dps specs in one on one matches they should run out of force and die through attrition. Even picking every slow/ root utility i find keeping sorc's from being mobile ridiculously hard.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Kazz_Devlin

[Dhurwin]

This shouldn't happen Heals should never out last pure dps specs in one on one matches they should run out of force and die through attrition. Even picking every slow/ root utility i find keeping sorc's from being mobile ridiculously hard.

 

This mentality has essentially ruined PvP in this game. Healers are responsible for the ENTIRE team. Healers need to be able to handle anyone hitting them and still be able to heal their TEAM. You can't have a successful healer if it can't stand up to even one person. Healers have won, and should ALWAYS win 1v1's through, you said it yourself, attrition. It's disgusting that people like you get so butthurt over the fact that in order to take down one person, again the same type of person RESPONSIBLE FOR KEEPING YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE ALIVE, you need to work. as. a. team. But time and time again people complain about healers being "too op" "too strong" "too [insert excuse here for me losing a 1v1 to healer here]" and time and time again the dev's think this is an actual issue, so they buff the hell outta the classes who are complaining. Well now healers get destroyed cause they can't even keep themselves up against one person, so now the healers need buffing. But, oh no, DPS have to work as a team to kill healers again, can't have that, BUFF THE DPS. And the vicious cycle continues. Be GLAD that healers exist who can hold their own and tank 1-2 people with minimal kiting. Enjoy it. REVEL in it. Cause those are the people you want on your team, those are the people who you can rely on to keep your bunk behind alive just long enough for you to HOPEFULLY do some good in this game. But do not complain about it. It's frankly insulting to think that we're busting our asses keeping you alive, just so you can spit in our face and crap down our neck.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Dhurwin

[Equeliber]

Healers have won, and should ALWAYS win 1v1's through, you said it yourself, attrition. It's disgusting that people like you get so butthurt over the fact that in order to take down one person, again the same type of person RESPONSIBLE FOR KEEPING YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE ALIVE, you need to work. as. a. team.

 

Are you for real? Do you actually believe that? That it's ok when it takes 3-4 people to take down a healer? You do realize that there can be two, three healers which makes them essentially immortal in many cases?

[Seterade]

This mentality has essentially ruined PvP in this game. Healers are responsible for the ENTIRE team. Healers need to be able to handle anyone hitting them and still be able to heal their TEAM. You can't have a successful healer if it can't stand up to even one person. Healers have won, and should ALWAYS win 1v1's through, you said it yourself, attrition. It's disgusting that people like you get so butthurt over the fact that in order to take down one person, again the same type of person RESPONSIBLE FOR KEEPING YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE ALIVE, you need to work. as. a. team. But time and time again people complain about healers being "too op" "too strong" "too [insert excuse here for me losing a 1v1 to healer here]" and time and time again the dev's think this is an actual issue, so they buff the hell outta the classes who are complaining. Well now healers get destroyed cause they can't even keep themselves up against one person, so now the healers need buffing. But, oh no, DPS have to work as a team to kill healers again, can't have that, BUFF THE DPS. And the vicious cycle continues. Be GLAD that healers exist who can hold their own and tank 1-2 people with minimal kiting. Enjoy it. REVEL in it. Cause those are the people you want on your team, those are the people who you can rely on to keep your bunk behind alive just long enough for you to HOPEFULLY do some good in this game. But do not complain about it. It's frankly insulting to think that we're busting our asses keeping you alive, just so you can spit in our face and crap down our neck.

No. You say yourself it is a team effort. A healer is not a tank. A healer should be able to heal through 2 DPS only if a tank is babysitting. MMORPGs are designed around 2 DPS/1 tank/ 1 heal comp. You survive 2 DPS only if you have a Tanks help. Not alone.

[FerkWork]

Survival was never the issue. If you adhere to the trinity Tank|DPS|Heals then your DPS classes should be glass cannons (i.e. They do high dmg but die rather quickly) If you boost survival and DPS you end up getting the issue currently plaguing the game now which is an over influx of merc's, snipers and sorc heals. Why because these have become I win classes because they break the trinity. If merc's want added survival then their DPS needs to be reduced because you are no longer a DPS spec your a hybrid (Tank/Dps). Same applies to sniper they may have needed a bit of tweaking in defenses prior to 5.0 but as usual they went to far. Snipers DPS was already high and prior to 5.0 they were in essence true to the trinity they did high dps but were also glass cannons not so any more. Sorc class is a complete joke now more peeps are playing healer just because its a pseudo semi-tank spec which requires 3 or four players to kill. This shouldn't happen Heals should never out last pure dps specs in one on one matches they should run out of force and die through attrition. Even picking every slow/ root utility i find keeping sorc's from being mobile ridiculously hard.

 

When the person you were quoting was referring to raids and raid wide AoE damage that makes Pyro and Hatred squishy and you then go on a rant about PvP and Healers. FeelsAwkwardMan

[Hombad]

So, according to your logic autoattacks are the highest source of damage for my Sin because I use it more than anything else?:rolleyes:

 

Er no.

 

I said total damage dealt, and I explained that Eradicate was a source of greater TOTAL damage as it is used more. than Creeping Terror (twice per creeping terror use). The link YOU PROVIDED showed how wrong you were.

 

Your auto attacks would be the highest source of damage if, literally, they COLLECTIVELY did more damage than any other ability COLLECTIVELY. But they aren't.

 

In total damage dealt, Eradicate is the greatest source of total damage in the parse. Fact.

 

How are you still not getting this?

 

In fact, the entire rotation is based around Raze Procs and Eradicate, and your two key abilities in the Hatred discipline are Eradicate and Death Field.

 

You argument is like saying that Rupture is the most important ability for Annihilation, or that Affliction is the most important ability for a Sorc.

[Torvai]

Er no.

 

I said total damage dealt, and I explained that Eradicate was a source of greater TOTAL damage as it is used more. than Creeping Terror (twice per creeping terror use). The link YOU PROVIDED showed how wrong you were.

 

Your auto attacks would be the highest source of damage if, literally, they COLLECTIVELY did more damage than any other ability COLLECTIVELY. But they aren't.

 

In total damage dealt, Eradicate is the greatest source of total damage in the parse. Fact.

 

How are you still not getting this?

What you aren't getting is

1) If I parse using all Sin abilitys once and then only Saber Strike until the dummy is dead, Saber Strike would be my greatest source of total damage in the parse. Fact

And following your logic, by analizing my imaginary Parse, you could say that Saber Strike ist the most important ability since it did the most damage.

Of course this is nonsense. Which brings me to the next point.

2) I was trolling the hell out of you with this statement

In fact, the entire rotation is based around Raze Procs and Eradicate, and your two key abilities in the Hatred discipline are Eradicate and Death Field.

 

You argument is like saying that Rupture is the most important ability for Annihilation, or that Affliction is the most important ability for a Sorc.

1) So what? Ravage is THE core ability of Vengeance. It's all the rotation revolves around. Yet, if you could afford it, you wouldn't even use it atm because it hits like a non existant noodle.

2) Yes, Affliction is the most important ability for a Sorc. At least for Lightning. Since it is the reason TB autocrits.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Torvai

[olagatonjedi]

What burst dps is, is not how long it takes for Hatred/Deception to finish a cycle, but how front-loaded/how DPS intense a short period of time can be for either spec.?

I think you have a skewed vision of the importance of burst dps, or more specifically the necessity for it.

 

If you are looking to 1 shot an NPC with 30k health, being able to kill it in 1 shot is better than taking more than 1 hit to accomplish it, because time is saved.

 

Most (if not all) ops phases last at minimum 15 seconds (and the ones that don't would definitely be the exception). This means that as long as ANY DPS class can match the damage damage per second over a necessary amount of time, while also meeting the minimum DPS check for the instance/fight, it doesn't matter if the damager is a burst or DoT spec.

 

Burst and DoT specs alike are generally even in DPS if given enough time to complete their rotation. A burst class will unload the bulk of their damage at the front end, while a DoT spec will be sustained damage throughout.

 

For example, say both classes need 9k minimum dps to kill an NPC with 135k health within 15 seconds. Assume both specs are capable of producing 9k DPS (btw, theorycrafted by Bant, both Hatred and Deception are capable of it). Mathematically, If a burst class can put out 80000 in the first 6 seconds (13333 dps), the remaining 9 seconds, the burst class would only put out 6111 DPS. As i said before, you could argue that the burst dps needs to be carried at various points of the fight due to the drop in dps when their burst skills are on cooldown.

[Dhurwin]

Are you for real? Do you actually believe that? That it's ok when it takes 3-4 people to take down a healer? You do realize that there can be two, three healers which makes them essentially immortal in many cases?

 

The fact that there could possibly be 3-4, maybe 5 healers on a team isn't the fault of said healers and they should not be punished for it. Also at that point with that many healers on the other team, your team would also be nigh immortal simply from the lack of damage your team would be taking. It would then be up to the players to decide if they want to win the match, or number farm. Just because you can't kill something doesn't mean you can't beat it. If there are 2-3 healers on the other team and they do keep everyone alive, and they have superior DPS and some semblance of strategy in a regs match (meaning everyone on that team is doing their job) again why should they be punished? For playing the game the way it was meant to be played? They had the better team. They won. What's wrong with losing? Learn from it. I know I've had more than my fair share off losses, and yea it's frustrating. It sucks. But more often than not, even blinded by that frustration, I can say it was the fault of my team for losing. Not simply "oh they had 3 healers so of course they won". It's never just one thing that causes a win or a loss. It's a culmination of events that begins the moment those two teams step into the warzone. There are plenty of "bad" healers out there who cannot keep up with 3-4 people, and find just 1 to be a struggle, but that does not mean healers should be buffed for the exact same reason that having people who can do their job properly, and heal themselves and aid in a successful victory, doesn't mean they should be nerfed. Find new, exciting ways to beat good teams. Work the puzzles, figure out the problem. Be a gamer. You can do it. Just use the brain inside that thick skull and think. Don't just take the easy path and call for a nerf or a buff. That's lazy and boring, and makes the game not a game anymore. In the end, you win some, you lose some. You could do everything right and still lose. You could do everything wrong and still win. That's literally life.

 

No. You say yourself it is a team effort. A healer is not a tank. A healer should be able to heal through 2 DPS only if a tank is babysitting. MMORPGs are designed around 2 DPS/1 tank/ 1 heal comp. You survive 2 DPS only if you have a Tanks help. Not alone.

 

This particular mmorpg might have some content balanced around 1t 1h 2d but certainly not ALL mmorpgs are balanced in such a way. (WoW for example, rift, most other mmos out there today...) and even in this game, that exact arguement falls through when looking at 16man content. Even regs could be said to be balanced around RNG and not any kind of trinity structure. Ask any group ranked or solo ranked player, when it's two tank/heal/2 DPS teams fighting one another, all things being equal, it's rarely ever PURELY the dps that wins the match. There are strats and coordination and CC and all the components of this game that make it FUN. Everything comes together and results in a win or a loss. "Lol we have more DPS we win" is a terrible way to judge how effective a team actually is. If you had healers who could only function under pressure of just 2 people without a tank, you would have far worse balancing issues than exist today. You would be decimated without proper support. Yes the other team would lack the support as well, but now you've taken power away from a role that is vital to have in almost every situation. Suddenly healing doesn't matter, because really how many tanks are you gonna find in queue -it 's the least populated role - and of the ones you do find, how many will be good enough to be trusted with a healer's survival? What happens when there's 6 DPS at a node (assuming the other two are guarding) you would need 3 tanks and healers, just to survive. Killing them would take forever, and there's no guarantee one of those 6 couldn't be a healer, meaning your team kills nothing either, cause all you have are 3 tanks. And skanks wouldn't work either, cause they need all the mitigation they can get because 1-2 DPS is all it takes to make one of your healers buckle, and the enemy has 5-6. The tank would have to be as beefy as possible to keep that one healer alive as long as possible so they can keep themselves up, and maybe the tank too if they have the spare time. How would you like it if every time 1-2 people walked up to you, you just auto-lose cause you didn't have a tank. Wouldn't you want a fighting chance? Or at least the possibility of escape? To get to someplace and recover, or find a HEALER to save you. Healers don't have that luxery, that privilege, of running away from a fight, unlike DPS. Because, unlike DPS, healers have a responsibility to keep their team going, to push themselves and others forward and to accomplish what no one else can. Sustaining life. If a healer just ran away from fights, it wouldn't be a very good healer, now would it? Tanks and dps are incredibly powerful, but no matter their cooldowns they still have health bars. They NEED that healer, just as the healer needs them, to be there for them, for YOU, to keep them going when everything's going to heck. Everything's falling apart, you're being torn to shreds and who keeps you going? A healer. One who may or not be dealing with several combatants of his or her own. A healer who may not receive peels, or guard, or recognition. A healer who's doing all that it can and taking the majority of the flak just so you can run around and kill people and enjoy your gaming experience. So you can complain about that healer. So you can try to remove that healer's power. You do that, and all you'll see in matches are DPS and skanks, and there won't be anymore healers. Because while they were always there for you, regardless of their skill, there's certainly as many bad healers as there are bad dps or tanks (relatively speaking), you were not there for them. And now they can't be there for you. All because you wanted to 1v1 a healer.

[Seterade]

you speak from a healers prospective. I understand you want this game to work in your favor. However. there are a couple things your not considering.

 

1) regs are not the wz endgame. ranked is. ranked is the "HMFP/OPs" of wzs. you use regs only so one day you can do ranked. so focusing end game class balance around regs is a bad idea, when regs is only there to get you ready for ranked.

 

2) whther there is enough tanks in queue really isnt up for debate. devs shouldnt boost one role to 3v1 standard just cause no one plays the other role. why? because if they did that, tanks would become obsolete. if they didnt? there would be a reason to queue as tank.... to keep hlrs alive.

 

Finally) yes a DPS should be able to kill a healer 1v1 in PvP. a tank should not. a DPS should because no class deserves to be able to 1v1 both tanks an dps. What happens if it does? you end up with 2017 wzs, where half the team is sorc hlrs.

[Evolixe]

Can we end this whole discussion about who should or shouldn't be able to 1v1 another?

 

It's completely irrilevant to the changes we're looking for in this class.

The whole healing thing is an issue of its own.

[Ottoattack]

you speak from a healers prospective. I understand you want this game to work in your favor. However. there are a couple things your not considering.

 

1) regs are not the wz endgame. ranked is. ranked is the "HMFP/OPs" of wzs. you use regs only so one day you can do ranked. so focusing end game class balance around regs is a bad idea, when regs is only there to get you ready for ranked.

 

2) whther there is enough tanks in queue really isnt up for debate. devs shouldnt boost one role to 3v1 standard just cause no one plays the other role. why? because if they did that, tanks would become obsolete. if they didnt? there would be a reason to queue as tank.... to keep hlrs alive.

 

Finally) yes a DPS should be able to kill a healer 1v1 in PvP. a tank should not. a DPS should because no class deserves to be able to 1v1 both tanks an dps. What happens if it does? you end up with 2017 wzs, where half the team is sorc hlrs.

 

What does this have to do with Hatred class balance changes? Can we please stay on topic, the mediocre, nearly useless, changes BW devs are planning to implement?

Edited June 14, 2017 by Ottoattack

[Dhurwin]

Can we end this whole discussion about who should or shouldn't be able to 1v1 another?

 

It's completely irrilevant to the changes we're looking for in this class.

The whole healing thing is an issue of its own.

 

What does this have to do with Hatred class balance changes? Can we please stay on topic, the mediocre, nearly useless, changes BW devs are planning to implement?

 

You two are both so right, it's not even funny, and I apologize. That said...

 

you speak from a healers prospective. I understand you want this game to work in your favor. However. there are a couple things your not considering.

 

1) regs are not the wz endgame. ranked is. ranked is the "HMFP/OPs" of wzs. you use regs only so one day you can do ranked. so focusing end game class balance around regs is a bad idea, when regs is only there to get you ready for ranked.

 

2) whther there is enough tanks in queue really isnt up for debate. devs shouldnt boost one role to 3v1 standard just cause no one plays the other role. why? because if they did that, tanks would become obsolete. if they didnt? there would be a reason to queue as tank.... to keep hlrs alive.

 

Finally) yes a DPS should be able to kill a healer 1v1 in PvP. a tank should not. a DPS should because no class deserves to be able to 1v1 both tanks an dps. What happens if it does? you end up with 2017 wzs, where half the team is sorc hlrs.

 

Honestly all content should be fair and balanced. Regs especially if they're really meant to prepare you for ranked cause you play how you practice. Not that i think they do, ranked is a completely different beast following an entirely different set of rules and expectations. I was pointing out the issue of balancing the whole game on solely one type of content. Which is one thing I like about these small starter changes to hatred. Start small, see what happens, keep going until perfect. I'm not for relying on tanks, for same reason that no one should be able to 1v3. The thing is, healers can't win a 1v3, but they can survive it for a time, provided the 3 don't have stuns, and the 1 doesn't have breaker. It's impractical to rely on just one role, yet all three are necessary. Everyone needs eachother, like I said. Just cause a healer can survive under pressure doesn't mean a tank couldn't make things easier. And tanks can function to keep dps and heals alive. I've seen dps beat tanks in duels, and vice versa. Healers' main objective is to keep others, and themselves alive. Not to solo people. They need the "umph" to keep up with an entire team, and a natural consequence of this is that being attacked by just one person becomes more of an annoyance than anything. Multiple people, however, and now you've gotta start thinking about mitigating some of that incoming damage. You suddenly nerf em so bad that they have to worry about a single person, it's game over man. Doesn't matter what they do to change sins, or any class, cause they won't live long enough in neither PvP nor PvE to even experience the changes.

 

Again, apologies for being off-topic.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Dhurwin

[Hombad]

I think you have a skewed vision of the importance of burst dps, or more specifically the necessity for it.

 

If you are looking to 1 shot an NPC with 30k health, being able to kill it in 1 shot is better than taking more than 1 hit to accomplish it, because time is saved.

 

Most (if not all) ops phases last at minimum 15 seconds (and the ones that don't would definitely be the exception). This means that as long as ANY DPS class can match the damage damage per second over a necessary amount of time, while also meeting the minimum DPS check for the instance/fight, it doesn't matter if the damager is a burst or DoT spec.

 

Burst and DoT specs alike are generally even in DPS if given enough time to complete their rotation. A burst class will unload the bulk of their damage at the front end, while a DoT spec will be sustained damage throughout.

 

For example, say both classes need 9k minimum dps to kill an NPC with 135k health within 15 seconds. Assume both specs are capable of producing 9k DPS (btw, theorycrafted by Bant, both Hatred and Deception are capable of it). Mathematically, If a burst class can put out 80000 in the first 6 seconds (13333 dps), the remaining 9 seconds, the burst class would only put out 6111 DPS. As i said before, you could argue that the burst dps needs to be carried at various points of the fight due to the drop in dps when their burst skills are on cooldown.

 

I really don't understand your logic of 'burst dps specs needing to be carried.'

 

But my point is, all the things I mentioned require burst. And Hatred doesn't have enough time to build up DPS to satisfy the DPS checks in the brief window.

 

15 seconds does not give Hatred a sufficient amount of time to do equivalent damage to Deception in a 15 second window. This isn't part and parcel of rotational dps from any point in a 2.5 mil parse; it is a 15 seconds from nothing generally.

 

E.g. Styrak manifestations in NiM. For Box, you start with no dots on target, likely not in melee range. You can't just say both specs can do 9k (when Deception is capable of 10k btw) and therefore both can satisfy the requirement.

 

What burst MEANS is how inflated its DPS can be from nothing in a short window. Hatred is not burst and lacks front loaded dps because it needs at least 5 GCDS of set up. 2 for Dots, 1 for Death Field +Recklessness, 1 to proc Raze, 1 to Eradicate + Recklessness. Thats almost 8 seconds of set up, out of 15.

 

In the same time, Deception has access to an extremely front loaded rotation of double or triple Recklessness + Discharge, with a Recklessness + Ball Lightning Thrown in as well.

 

15 seconds is simply not enough time for most DoT specs (with the exception of perhaps Virulence) to equal the damage dealt by its burst counterpart(s). Burst dps (overall) is characterised by Peaks and Troughs: a small window sees an overrepresentation of Peaks. DoT DPS generally sees Peaks and Troughs as well, but less pronounced, and a similar average with less deviation from that average at any point. The reason Burst can carry DoT specs, and not vice versa, is because Burst windows see a distorted view of that overall DPS by only registering the PEAK without the TROUGH, yet over time the averages remain more or less the same. A dot spec may need to carry a burst spec if the dot spec hugely outperforms (e.g. viru vs. mm for snipers), but this isn't the case here.

 

Thus, Burst DPS classes rarely need to be 'carried' in your own logic. Since they both give the same amount of overall damage in a fight (yet, Deception thoroughly outdamages Hatred in a burst AND a sustained parse), Burst specs are generally at an advantage as 1. they do similar outputs to their dot counterparts overall, and 2. they, in the event of small windows for dps checks, can beat them whereas DoTs specs MAY (key word) struggle.

 

Thats why Carnage is generally preferred for most NiM fights, why Arsenal was preferred for most NiM fights (before IO got mega buffs in 5.0), and why Deception is currently preferred (not to mention its enormous durability).

 

I honestly don't know why you are defending Hatred so much, it is in dire need of adjustments as it heavily underperforms in NiM currently. I can't see how your arguments could be based in current experience.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Hombad
Clarity

[kronovas]

Hatred is in dire need of getting those global cool downs removed, namely, the skills that place the DoT. Every other skill should remain as is. It needs a straight forward damage buff and a means to place DoTs rapidly. The spec can also use an upgrade to it defensive capability. There are specs in game that are totally whack... you either wreck everyone or you're the one getting wrecked. A crazy buff isn't what is needed, instead a creative solution to bring this spec to a NiM level.

[howfowl]

@Eric - Can you get the combat team to explain how these changes will bring Shadow/Sin to the +5% target referenced in this link: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9333043

 

I've looked at the top parses, adjusted them up to reflect what the new changes should bring and they are still below Watchman by a few hundred dps. Since Sentinels are not slated for changes this summer, it is not like their DPS will come down to meet the new Shadow numbers.

[olagatonjedi]

I really don't understand your logic of 'burst dps specs needing to be carried.'

 

But my point is, all the things I mentioned require burst. And Hatred doesn't have enough time to build up DPS to satisfy the DPS checks in the brief window.

 

15 seconds does not give Hatred a sufficient amount of time to do equivalent damage to Deception in a 15 second window. This isn't part and parcel of rotational dps from any point in a 2.5 mil parse; it is a 15 seconds from nothing generally.

 

E.g. Styrak manifestations in NiM. For Box, you start with no dots on target, likely not in melee range. You can't just say both specs can do 9k (when Deception is capable of 10k btw) and therefore both can satisfy the requirement.

 

What burst MEANS is how inflated its DPS can be from nothing in a short window. Hatred is not burst and lacks front loaded dps because it needs at least 5 GCDS of set up. 2 for Dots, 1 for Death Field +Recklessness, 1 to proc Raze, 1 to Eradicate + Recklessness. Thats almost 8 seconds of set up, out of 15.

 

In the same time, Deception has access to an extremely front loaded rotation of double or triple Recklessness + Discharge, with a Recklessness + Ball Lightning Thrown in as well.

 

15 seconds is simply not enough time for most DoT specs (with the exception of perhaps Virulence) to equal the damage dealt by its burst counterpart(s). Burst dps (overall) is characterised by Peaks and Troughs: a small window sees an overrepresentation of Peaks. DoT DPS generally sees Peaks and Troughs as well, but less pronounced, and a similar average with less deviation from that average at any point. The reason Burst can carry DoT specs, and not vice versa, is because Burst windows see a distorted view of that overall DPS by only registering the PEAK without the TROUGH, yet over time the averages remain more or less the same. A dot spec may need to carry a burst spec if the dot spec hugely outperforms (e.g. viru vs. mm for snipers), but this isn't the case here.

 

Thus, Burst DPS classes rarely need to be 'carried' in your own logic. Since they both give the same amount of overall damage in a fight (yet, Deception thoroughly outdamages Hatred in a burst AND a sustained parse), Burst specs are generally at an advantage as 1. they do similar outputs to their dot counterparts overall, and 2. they, in the event of small windows for dps checks, can beat them whereas DoTs specs MAY (key word) struggle.

 

Thats why Carnage is generally preferred for most NiM fights, why Arsenal was preferred for most NiM fights (before IO got mega buffs in 5.0), and why Deception is currently preferred (not to mention its enormous durability).

 

I honestly don't know why you are defending Hatred so much, it is in dire need of adjustments as it heavily underperforms in NiM currently. I can't see how your arguments could be based in current experience.

Go to parsely.io and look up all of the top deception and hatred parses. Note the overall DPS of each of the parses you wish to review. Then go to damage done tab, and click on the chart that shows ongoing DPS. Go click on 15-18 seconds, and compare the DPS values. I'll save you the time by giving you a breakdown of what you'll find. At 15-18 seconds, both Hatred and Deception have pretty much balanced out to equal their overall DPS, both of which are over 9k DPS - well higher than the necessary DPS of any of the fights you listed. In addition, the fact that BOTH specs have met that 9k DPS only 15 seconds into their parses means that both are more than capable of meeting the requirement for any of the fights/phases that mentioned as well.

 

Burst DPS will get you a lot of front end damage, but after 15-18 seconds worth of fighting, both will be relatively equal in overall damage output. Can Hatred use a buff to give it an overall DPS boost? Sure, so it can be competitive with other DPS classes. Does Hatred need a DPS boost to be effective in a NiM raid and/or phase of a NiM raid? Not according to the theorycrafting, and not according to the parses.

[Hombad]

Can Hatred use a buff to give it an overall DPS boost? Sure, so it can be competitive with other DPS classes. Does Hatred need a DPS boost to be effective in a NiM raid and/or phase of a NiM raid? Not according to the theorycrafting, and not according to the parses.

 

Does Hatred need a DPS boost to be effective in a NiM raid? According to actual experience and progression from a Sin main, yes.

[Evolixe]

What part of Parsely are you even looking at?

My Deception Sin is doing 14.2k DPS 17 seconds in.

 

Good luck doing that with a Hatred Sin. Or even getting halfway close.

 

You aren't going to take a Hatred Sin for your Styrak burst phase knowing that a Dec sin is 50% more effective at it while also doing more overall damage AND taking less damage too.

At least ONE of those factors should be in Hatreds favour, being the overall damage one.

 

But untill then, you're not going to take a spec in there that can only make the timers by the skin of its teeth, given that everybody else gives it their all as well. That is called having to be carried.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Evolixe

[olagatonjedi]

Does Hatred need a DPS boost to be effective in a NiM raid? According to actual experience and progression from a Sin main, yes.

All that statement says is that because you are ineffective in NiM raids with Hatred, it needs a buff. Provide some transparent statistics behind your argument.

[olagatonjedi]

What part of Parsely are you even looking at?

My Deception Sin is doing 14.2k DPS 17 seconds in.

 

Good luck doing that with a Hatred Sin. Or even getting halfway close.

 

You aren't going to take a Hatred Sin for your Styrak burst phase knowing that a Dec sin is 50% more effective at it while also doing more overall damage AND taking less damage too.

At least ONE of those factors should be in Hatreds favour, being the overall damage one.

 

But untill then, you're not going to take a spec in there that can only make the timers by the skin of its teeth, given that everybody else gives it their all as well. That is called having to be carried.

What was your overall DPS for that specific fight?

[Evolixe]

10.300 or so.

[olagatonjedi]

10.300 or so.

And how long was that fight? What boss? Etc.

Edited June 17, 2017 by olagatonjedi

[Evolixe]

I don't really see how that matters, I can do that on any boss that allows me to stay on from 0 to 17 seconds.

 

But that would be the 2.5M training dummy at 4:04 or so.