Server Merge Discussion Thread

[Ratajack]

Yeah, we seem to have different definitions. In all the social games I’ve played, griefing was always referred to as interrupting someone’s game play, not chat trolling.

Troll is usually the generic term people use when they don’t know the difference. It’s the same when people call people hackers for cheating when they aren’t hacking, just cheating in another manner.

I think it’s important to point out the difference and use the right terminology because the word troll instills fear into some people. When you show the difference and explain how you can use a common sense approach to limit exposure to them, the perception changes from fear to annoyance and even pity.

Ignoring them isn’t condoning bullying, if anything you are making the troll impotent and ruining their fun more than them ruining yours. If you engage the troll with out rage out of a moral sense of duty, all you are doing is falling into their trap and they get the power over you. Ruining their fun is the best justice,

It’s better to just use ignore and let them and watch them slink away.

 

IMO, you are correct that hacking is a form of cheating, although cheating is not always hacking and hackers are cheaters, although not all cheaters are hackers.

 

 

Similarly, trolls are griefers, although not all griefers are "simply trolls", IMO.

 

 

By "ignoring" trolls griefers and bullies, you also give them power, even if that is just the power to grief others.

 

Someone far wiser than I am once wrote:

 

 

 

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Socialist.

 

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

 

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Jew.

 

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

Now, the groups may be different, but the sentiment is the same. "Ignore" those intent on persecuting others at your own peril.

[RobertFKennedyUS]

You seem to misunderstand the difference between griefing and chat trolls.

 

You do not grasp basic logic. Again, the existence of one form of trolling does not preclude the existence of another. I suggest you re-read that as many times as is necessary.

 

If you have problems with chat trolls, use ignore, I’m not even sure why that’s an issue for you.

 

The problem is completely yours. I have no problems with chat trolls. Chat trolls are the problem. Also, you mistake me for an RP'er simply because I am arguing for something that benefits them (among others). You recklessly make incorrect assumptions.

 

So you pick up a chat troll while RPing, make it part of the RP, “warning, alarms go off, unauthorised intruder, initiate security measures, open air lock and eject waste” right click, ignore, crisis averted.

 

Again, "security measures" are inadequate to deal with a never-ending barrage of trolls. The crisis does not get averted, it ends when all RP'ers are driven off the server.

 

I’ve seen people play the alt hop game to troll people when they get put on ignore. They only have so many Alts to do it on and the more they switch, the more damning the evidence is when you report them, I know someone who got 3 month bans the first time they did it because they used about 15 Alts to troll hop. That wasn’t even RP, it was pvp.

 

I've been seeing the same trolls on Harbinger for months and what they say is far more offensive than trolling RP'ers. They're not going anywhere. Given that this is such a deep structural misalignment between RP'ers, trolls and PV'ers there will be a never ending supply of trolls and trolling, and I don't think anyone plays a game so they can be ****ed with.

 

As I said in one of my other posts, there are ways to avoid them all together. Start a custom channel for you and your friends. If you pick up a chat troll, use ignore.

 

It's possible, alternatively one can just play another game. It's a stupid situation if BW chooses to go with the deal with it approach you are advocating.

[Ratajack]

I agree 100%.

 

But People can still use those very simple steps to try and avoid the situation because it doesn’t look like Bioware are going to change their policy or monitoring of it anytime soon.

We still have police in the RW, but that doesn’t stop crime. I’m glad we have cops, but I certainly don’t rely on them for my everyday safety. I use common sense and steps to avoid putting my self in risky situations.

People can either be victims and not protect themselves or they can protect themselves and try and avoid it.

Think of it like wearing a seatbelt. I shouldn’t need the seatbelt if myself and everyone else drives properly and I’ve got more airbags in the car than a sale on blow up dolls. But I still put it on because it’s a prudent measure just in case something does happen.

 

If I understand you correctly, if "the slums" are a high crime area, a prudent person would avoid "the slums".

 

That being the case, why are many pleading for RP'ers to "enter those slums" and expose themselves to the likely increase in griefing, trolling and bullying after servers merges?

[Totemdancer]

IMO, you are correct that hacking is a form of cheating, although cheating is not always hacking and hackers are cheaters, although not all cheaters are hackers.

 

Similarly, trolls are griefers, although not all griefers are "simply trolls", IMO.

 

By "ignoring" trolls griefers and bullies, you also give them power, even if that is just the power to grief others.

 

Someone far wiser than I am once wrote:

 

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Socialist.

 

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

 

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Jew.

 

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

Now, the groups may be different, but the sentiment is the same. "Ignore" those intent on persecuting others at your own peril.

 

LoL, nice word play at the beginning 😊. I speed read and I had to stop and read it again, it was well written.

Try saying it fast out loud 3 times in a row and you’ll understand what I mean.

 

I do believe in real world situations like those examples you point out, that we do have a moral imperative to not stand by and let injustice or bullying take place because it doesn’t affect us.

 

Online is a bit different. You can try and approach it like a RW situation, but that depends on the online format. If you are on a media site like Twitter, Facebook or some forums, it’s easier to do that. It’s much harder to do it in a game, especially when there is little moderation and anonymity is guaranteed even more than social media sites. It still often extremely hard in media sites as well, but you can sometime get a community of people around you to combat it.

Except that can backfire too because the trolls can sometimes rally people who aren’t trolls normally to their side,

In every bit of literature or documentary I’ve seen that talks about online trolls, all the experts seem to agree that the best approach is remove their power. That can happen in a lot of different ways depending on the platform and situation. For online games, the easiest solution is to use ignore and you never need to gear from them again. That’s how you take their power away. You never wanted to talk to them anyway, they are the ones that need you to have fun, if you aren’t there, they have no fun. That’s the best revenge you can use, you ruin their fun. If more people actually did it, they wouldn’t have anyone to troll and might have to learn some better behaviour practices.

[Totemdancer]

If I understand you correctly, if "the slums" are a high crime area, a prudent person would avoid "the slums".

 

That being the case, why are many pleading for RP'ers to "enter those slums" and expose themselves to the likely increase in griefing, trolling and bullying after servers merges?

 

You lost me in that last bit of the analogy. Sorry, it’s 6am here and I’ve not slept yet. Can you elaborate more or use a different example,

[TUXs]

That being the case, why are many pleading for RP'ers to "enter those slums" and expose themselves to the likely increase in griefing, trolling and bullying after servers merges?

Nobody is pleading, but it IS happening...nothing you can do about it now.

[Ratajack]

You lost me in that last bit of the analogy. Sorry, it’s 6am here and I’ve not slept yet. Can you elaborate more or use a different example,

 

If "the slums" are a high crime area, would you recommend that people wishing to avoid being "vctims" of crime stay away from "the slums" or go into, or remain in, those "slums"?

 

Similarly, if these servers increase the amount of bullying, griefing and trolling directed at RP'ers, or any other group ofplayers, would you recomend that those players continue to expose themselves to that bullying, griefing and trolling or would you recommend that those players "stay way" from that bullying, griefing and trolling by moving onto another game that is more conducive to their play style?

 

If you choose to "ignore" the trolls and allow them to bully, grief and troll other players, leading to those other players to leave the game, eventually the bullies, griefers and trolls will have no one left to bully, grief and troll other than you, and no one will be left to "defend" or "protect" you. The bullies, griefers and trolls will have no one else to bully, grief and troll and so will not likely "move one", choosing instead to continue to bully, grief and troll you. What do you do then?

[Ratajack]

Nobody is pleading, but it IS happening...nothing you can do about it now.

 

The server meres will happen, but there ARE people pleading for RP'ers to remain and not move onto other games.

 

I do not think these server merges will be the panacea that those who rely upon LFG fodder for their group content seem to think they will be.

 

We will have to wait and see, though.

[TUXs]

The server meres will happen, but there ARE people pleading for RP'ers to remain and not move onto other games.

 

I do not think these server merges will be the panacea that those who rely upon LFG fodder for their group content seem to think they will be.

 

We will have to wait and see, though.

I expect we gain, at most, 10 players total. This merge happened WAY too slow and far too late to have any meaningful impact on anyone.

[Pietrastor]

I expect we gain, at most, 10 players total. This merge happened WAY too slow and far too late to have any meaningful impact on anyone.

 

Let's not get hysterical. The gain won't be massive as the merge comes way too late after the damage done primarily by cheap transfers and removal of PVE/PVP/RP server types, but it will still help a lot. There's a substiantial number of players AND characters stranded on various servers. Many people don't wanna move and with declining population (and thus oppurtunities, not just with group content but GTN, RPing as well) they were naturally less eager to log into the game. Some will return just because of the merger news.

 

So again, not saying it will be a magical cure for all issues, but it's needed and I'm glad it's finally happening.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Pietrastor

[TUXs]

So again, not saying it will be a magical cure for all issues, but it's needed and I'm glad it's finally happening.

I'm thrilled it is too...I just have very low expectations of what the situation will be after the new server moves. I don't think any server was doing that well to begin with.

[Ratajack]

I expect we gain, at most, 10 players total. This merge happened WAY too slow and far too late to have any meaningful impact on anyone.

 

Possibly even a net loss if these merges drive players away.

 

IMO, the most likely to leave would be RP'ers and those who were happy on their current server and did not want to be merged.

 

I'm not saying that we will lose players, but the potential for the loss of players does exist.

[orangenee]

It'll be a rough few weeks when it happens as the established cliques and circles shift around.

 

The nigh dead GTN that is at least on my server should improve though. However that will also enter a state of flux initially as well as the market gains more stock and the whales have more competition.

[Totemdancer]

You do not grasp basic logic. Again, the existence of one form of trolling does not preclude the existence of another. I suggest you re-read that as many times as is necessary.

 

The problem is completely yours. I have no problems with chat trolls. Chat trolls are the problem. Also, you mistake me for an RP'er simply because I am arguing for something that benefits them (among others). You recklessly make incorrect assumptions.

 

Again, "security measures" are inadequate to deal with a never-ending barrage of trolls. The crisis does not get averted, it ends when all RP'ers are driven off the server.

 

I've been seeing the same trolls on Harbinger for months and what they say is far more offensive than trolling RP'ers. They're not going anywhere. Given that this is such a deep structural misalignment between RP'ers, trolls and PV'ers there will be a never ending supply of trolls and trolling, and I don't think anyone plays a game so they can be ****ed with.

 

It's possible, alternatively one can just play another game. It's a stupid situation if BW chooses to go with the deal with it approach you are advocating.

 

I’ll simply say this because you aren’t an RPer and obviously do not understand what the troll issue is for RPers,

Chat trolls are not the big issue. Griefers are what cause problems for RPers.

If chat trolls are such a problem for you in your part of the game, I suggest you find a strategy to minimise their affect on you.

People who troll chat are just idiots and can be silenced. If you want to sit there and listen to them drone on and not ignore them, that’s your prerogative. I prefer to just use ignore and not have to hear them again.

I’m also not advocating anything. All I said is there are ways you can reduce exposure to chat trolls. Lots of RPers already use custom chat channels so they don’t interfere with other people’s RP. If you are all in the same guild, you just use guild chat. What do you think RPers are doing when we all stand in a big group and you can’t see what we are saying. We certainly aren’t all PMing each other.

Honestly, when I’m RPing I don’t even have general chat enabled because even normal chat interferes with RPing if you are in the middle of it. With my guild and friends, the only way someone can communicate with me who isn’t in our guild or in our custom chat channel is to pm us, if it’s a troll, I put them on ignore,

Yes chat trolls suck, yes they should be banned or moderated. But RPers don’t need to be cottonwooled from chat trolls. Most of us are more than capable of following some simple steps to avoid them.

I think chat trolls become more of an issue for pvpers and normal pve people because they need to be able to communicate with random people constantly, especially in pvp or looking for groups. In those cases, turning off gen chat is detrimental to them, but you can still use ignore,

Now if physical game interruptions (griefing) takes off in a big way, I can see major problems and Bioware would need to step in. If you’d asked me 4 months ago before all of this talk of RPers needing to be cotton wooled and isolated from the rest of the game like we are handicapped, I would have said categorically that i believed we wouldn’t see an increase in griefing if we merged. But now we’ve had all these threads and posts by people who are fear mongering or driven by fear of the boogie man under the bed, that it’s actually painting a target on all RPers backs. Even so, if we do get an increase, I still don’t think it will be massive or last that long. But as I said in another thread, all this fear mongering does is create a self fulfilling prophecy to be griefed and trolled. So if you really want to help RPers, stop trying to create an atmosphere of fear.

[Totemdancer]

I expect we gain, at most, 10 players total. This merge happened WAY too slow and far too late to have any meaningful impact on anyone.

 

Sad, but true, they should have happened no later than March to have any real affect,

We may only gain a few people for some queues from other servers, we will probably gain more from returning players.

I’m already excited to see so many of my friends and guildies deciding to come back and try the new road map and mergers.

[TUXs]

Possibly even a net loss if these merges drive players away.

 

IMO, the most likely to leave would be RP'ers and those who were happy on their current server and did not want to be merged.

 

I'm not saying that we will lose players, but the potential for the loss of players does exist.

Oh well...it beats driving away every returning player who comes back to a dead game. RPers have plenty of options.

[Ratajack]

Oh well...it beats driving away every returning player who comes back to a dead game. RPers have plenty of options.

 

I'm not sure how much sense it makes to drive away loyal current players in favor of players who have already proven that they have no loyalty to the game and will likely jump ship for the next shiny that comes along--if they even come back in the first place.

 

As I acknowledged previously, the decision has been made. All we can do is to wait and see what the end result of that decision turns out to be.

[CrazyCT]

Oh well...it beats driving away every returning player who comes back to a dead game. RPers have plenty of options.

 

{Yup, much better to get rid of players who actually sub to the game now, in the vague hope that maybe a couple of extra new players will come.}

[DWho]

It'll be a rough few weeks when it happens as the established cliques and circles shift around.

 

The nigh dead GTN that is at least on my server should improve though. However that will also enter a state of flux initially as well as the market gains more stock and the whales have more competition.

 

I think you will be quite disappointed with the results the merger will have on GTN prices. In a normal economy where there is essentially no limit on commodities an increased market would drive down prices. The problem is that the rare items will go for higher prices (and sellers know this) because there are more people with hundreds of millions of credits burning holes in their pockets on larger population servers. Prices only go down if nobody buys at the high price. Crafted gear will probably go down in price but all the rare cartel market stuff will probably increase substantially. There are not enough Cartel Market whales left to create any kind of supply on those items.

[Totemdancer]

If "the slums" are a high crime area, would you recommend that people wishing to avoid being "vctims" of crime stay away from "the slums" or go into, or remain in, those "slums"?

 

Similarly, if these servers increase the amount of bullying, griefing and trolling directed at RP'ers, or any other group ofplayers, would you recomend that those players continue to expose themselves to that bullying, griefing and trolling or would you recommend that those players "stay way" from that bullying, griefing and trolling by moving onto another game that is more conducive to their play style?

 

If you choose to "ignore" the trolls and allow them to bully, grief and troll other players, leading to those other players to leave the game, eventually the bullies, griefers and trolls will have no one left to bully, grief and troll other than you, and no one will be left to "defend" or "protect" you. The bullies, griefers and trolls will have no one else to bully, grief and troll and so will not likely "move one", choosing instead to continue to bully, grief and troll you. What do you do then?

 

If it was griefing, I wouldn’t want to be exposed to it. At that point I would expect Bioware to step in and take some action the same as they would if people were exploiting an OP or a way to make fast credits.

I think at the moment we are all jumping to far ahead to see what’s going to happen. I believe that Bioware are playing a wait and see attitude. If griefing becomes an issue, then I think you’ll see them step in and create seperate instances and maybe a few other things to make it harder. But if it’s just chats trolls, I can’t see them doing anything more than they do for any other part of the game. I don’t just RP, I play a lot of pvp too, Chat trolls are by far the worst in pvp, especially the select few ranked elitists that give all ranked players a bad rep.

If Bioware aren’t willing to moderate the other chat trolls in the game, I see no reason why RPers will be treated differently. It’s not like we are all children and need our parents to watch over us. There isnt one person under 28 in my RP guilds and most of us are in our late 30s to 40s.

If, and it’s a big if, there is a major problem for RP after the mergers, Bioware have already said they are looking at ways to address it. I think the best thing we can do atm is to let the topic die down and see what happens when there isn’t all this hype around RPers needing special treatment, if we can do that, I think the damage from all this talk will be limited and any problems will also be limited and short lived,

[Totemdancer]

I'm not sure how much sense it makes to drive away loyal current players in favor of players who have already proven that they have no loyalty to the game and will likely jump ship for the next shiny that comes along--if they even come back in the first place.

 

As I acknowledged previously, the decision has been made. All we can do is to wait and see what the end result of that decision turns out to be.

 

It never makes sense to drive loyal players from the game. But we’ve seen Bioware do it all year to greater success than at anytime during the game’s history. What make you think they care now about potentially losing some RP people because of mergers?

If didn’t make them care when pvpers started to leave in droves or ops people who didn’t want to do pvp to gear for ops.

I’m still scratching my head after this year trying to work out what they really do care about,

Edited October 4, 2017 by Totemdancer

[Malphicious]

I’ll simply say this because you aren’t an RPer and obviously do not understand what the troll issue is for RPers,

Chat trolls are not the big issue. Griefers are what cause problems for RPers.

If chat trolls are such a problem for you in your part of the game, I suggest you find a strategy to minimise their affect on you.

People who troll chat are just idiots and can be silenced. If you want to sit there and listen to them drone on and not ignore them, that’s your prerogative. I prefer to just use ignore and not have to hear them again.

I’m also not advocating anything. All I said is there are ways you can reduce exposure to chat trolls. Lots of RPers already use custom chat channels so they don’t interfere with other people’s RP. If you are all in the same guild, you just use guild chat. What do you think RPers are doing when we all stand in a big group and you can’t see what we are saying. We certainly aren’t all PMing each other.

Honestly, when I’m RPing I don’t even have general chat enabled because even normal chat interferes with RPing if you are in the middle of it. With my guild and friends, the only way someone can communicate with me who isn’t in our guild or in our custom chat channel is to pm us, if it’s a troll, I put them on ignore,

Yes chat trolls suck, yes they should be banned or moderated. But RPers don’t need to be cottonwooled from chat trolls. Most of us are more than capable of following some simple steps to avoid them.

I think chat trolls become more of an issue for pvpers and normal pve people because they need to be able to communicate with random people constantly, especially in pvp or looking for groups. In those cases, turning off gen chat is detrimental to them, but you can still use ignore,

Now if physical game interruptions (griefing) takes off in a big way, I can see major problems and Bioware would need to step in. If you’d asked me 4 months ago before all of this talk of RPers needing to be cotton wooled and isolated from the rest of the game like we are handicapped, I would have said categorically that i believed we wouldn’t see an increase in griefing if we merged. But now we’ve had all these threads and posts by people who are fear mongering or driven by fear of the boogie man under the bed, that it’s actually painting a target on all RPers backs. Even so, if we do get an increase, I still don’t think it will be massive or last that long. But as I said in another thread, all this fear mongering does is create a self fulfilling prophecy to be griefed and trolled. So if you really want to help RPers, stop trying to create an atmosphere of fear.

 

Not sure about the person you quoted. Maybe they literally thought they could help by not being an Rper and standing up and saying "You got a friend in me". I know I've spent most of the day so far on here myself trying to assure it will be fine and I'm looking forward to the merge because of the variety of play it's bringing. Some though seem to be using RP because they don't want to deal with RP, or don't want their casual game play interrupted or hindered. Again not saying that guy was. I honestly got the impression he truly wants to help. I do get what your saying about people need to calm down before they hurt things more than they help on all sides of this discussion. That said, I'm calling it a week on forums but before I go all worried rp'ers should know there are plenty of people on what will be Star Forge that are good people who get involved and help when trolls get too nasty. I'm sure the same will apply with grievers when seen or reported to their GM's or the community. It's gonna be iite!

[CrazyCT]

It never makes sense to drive loyal players from the game. But we’ve seen Bioware do it all year to greater success than at anytime during the game’s history. What make you think they care now.

 

{Yup, feck it, might as well get rid of the group who are quite happy with the game, without adding any real new content to keep the rest, and pretending that somehow these server merges are gonna have your PvP queue popping instantly every time}

[orangenee]

I think you will be quite disappointed with the results the merger will have on GTN prices. In a normal economy where there is essentially no limit on commodities an increased market would drive down prices. The problem is that the rare items will go for higher prices (and sellers know this) because there are more people with hundreds of millions of credits burning holes in their pockets on larger population servers. Prices only go down if nobody buys at the high price. Crafted gear will probably go down in price but all the rare cartel market stuff will probably increase substantially. There are not enough Cartel Market whales left to create any kind of supply on those items.

 

I have a fair few "high ticket" items I can't shift on my present server. So from a purely self-interested point of view I can only gain from an increased market, in the short term at least.

 

I'm not heavily into the GTN myself so don't closely monitor it.

 

It's more than likely you're right though but it'll be interesting at any rate.

[Totemdancer]

{Yup, feck it, might as well get rid of the group who are quite happy with the game, without adding any real new content to keep the rest, and pretending that somehow these server merges are gonna have your PvP queue popping instantly every time}

 

LoL, you do know Bioware drove away the most maintenance free group from the game with 5.0.

Pvpers require very little to stay subbed and to play. They have hardly got any new content over the years, the only group who has gotten less is GSF. But lots of pvpers still stayed subbed while at first, Raiders and then story people got looked after first for 4-5 years. Anything pvpers got was an after thought, but still they stayed subbed.

Then Bioware releases 5.0 and pvpers are the first to start leaving, well before RPers, Ops or story people. Lots of those people were long time subscribers like my partner and friends. They were dedicated pvpers and fans of the game. They were relatively easy maintenance when compared to other parts of the game. But still, Bioware opened the door with 5.0 and continued to let them walk out all year because they were too stubborn to admit they were wrong with 5.0. And make some very small changes to stop them leaving.

 

But it doesn’t matter anymore because mergers are happening. Nothing can be done to stop them, so there is no use in continuing to complain about it,

Edited October 4, 2017 by Totemdancer