Dumbing down of the game, good or bad?

[IanArgent]

I remember quite well that almost every heroic had group of mobs 1-2 elite/champion in them with a cast that resulted in a nasty something. Learn to interrupt. Or if not casting something, placing an aoe so you learn to move out stupid because it hurts. And stuff like this. You've learnt this. And surprise, in FPs and OPS these mechanics are the same. Level sync would've reserved them in their status as a challenging optional mission for small groups. Buit as we know the nerfhammer came.

 

They were rebuilt to be challenges for the "average" player running "solo." (PC+Companion); almost certainly because people weren't grouping for them. We have " challenging optional mission for small groups" - they're flashpoints and latterly uprisings and have proper support for group formation. Heroics have never had the mechanical support to make them suitable for ad-hoc group play, and the mission givers are in the middle of the solo play areas. What we didn't have prior to 4.x was challenging optional missions for single players (at level cap.) So the studio took something that they had handy, whose function was largely overlapped by flashpoints, and repurposed it.

 

(One thing I see over and over in the forums, because the participants are generally longer-term players, is an overestimation of the "average" skill level of the game population. Also, there is an assumption that the majority of end-game players are interested in group content primarily or only. BW:A doesn't seem to believe this any more - whether their beliefs are true or not, they have better info than we do)

 

Me too, and I'm still not arguing on level sync. I'm arguing that with level sync, dumbing down heroics was un-needed when 4.0 hit. I would love to do them now with synced down to their level in their original difficulty, it would be great to have my guildies around me working on them. Insted, now "guys, need some money, wanna zerg through some heroics? sure." *zerging and snoozing* $$$profit$$$

 

Assumes that Heroics after 4.0 were intended to be "challenging optional mission for small groups." WE know this to not be the case; by explicit design intent, since they added significant credit rewards and the alliance lockboxes to them. Alliance lockboxes are a variant reputation grind mechanism, so they are "optional," but it's part of the single-player game, not part of the group game. That's why Heroics were tuned down to "Average single player skill level."

 

Oh, and it was Max_Killjoy

 

Thanks.

[Celise]

was around since late beta, the game was never particularly challenging, however one or two abilities used by npcs over that time were frankly ridiculous, i'm not writing of something op, i'm writing of something one shot kill back in the day, for example there were these two guards on alderaan, both strong difficulty, together they were impossible to deal with because they had sniper abilities on a blaster pistol, one to knock you down and take most of your heal and a second to kill you, you may survive one ambush hit and get up but the second from the other guard made sure you were completely out of it without having any ability to defend yourself.

 

i mean stuff like that goes well beyond challenging, because you can't deal with impossible. i made a case a while back to the customer service team regarding these guards and they were changed because i had a person on the other end and i discussed it out with them and they must of realised something was wrong there. this was well before any level sync or makeb had come out.

 

As for challenging, the problem is when you passed all the challenges before, just how many more challenges lay ahead of you before you call them too easy as well? you haven't explained what you want by challenging, OP. This is a moving goal post between wanting to keep casual players on the game and satisfying the raiders and other pve'ers.

[VegasTheLost]

snip

 

Sorry for snipping, but I don't wan't to quote large stuff

 

Heroics, ideally were the perfect supplementary challenging quests for small groups. While FPs took/take long time to complete, heroics were the solution for rapid challenges for 2-4 players. Ideally. What happened was that players outleveled them to be bale to solo them, which is quite normal for a game that has levels and the quests are only relevant for level brackets. This was expected and is understandable. Even so since this is an MMO and by that not everything has to be able to be done solo. For some stuff one has to group up. You can argue with this, but there is no point, so please don't.

 

Realize that right now there is no rapid, challenging quests for small groups during leveling. Only tactical FPs, which as mentioned above take more time than heroics (not to mention most of the FPs have solo modes...). Also realize that not everything has to be aimed to the average player. Some like challenging quests during leveling. By not dumbing down the heroics and introducing level sync these few would be served, since right now if someone wants to have a challenge during leveling, the only options are either Tactical FPs(again, takes time) or level to 50 in order to participate SM OPS or HM FPs. This is what 4.0 brought to the leveling process. And to get back to the starting point, leveling is a snoozefest and our companions can solo everything.

 

Now, nobody wants nightmare difficulty during leveling, but some quests that aren't just spam basic attack would be welcome.

[TUXs]

Heroics, ideally were the perfect supplementary challenging quests for small groups. While FPs took/take long time to complete, heroics were the solution for rapid challenges for 2-4 players. Ideally. What happened was that players outleveled them to be bale to solo them, which is quite normal for a game that has levels and the quests are only relevant for level brackets. This was expected and is understandable. Even so since this is an MMO and by that not everything has to be able to be done solo. For some stuff one has to group up. You can argue with this, but there is no point, so please don't.

 

Realize that right now there is no rapid, challenging quests for small groups during leveling. Only tactical FPs, which as mentioned above take more time than heroics (not to mention most of the FPs have solo modes...). Also realize that not everything has to be aimed to the average player. Some like challenging quests during leveling. By not dumbing down the heroics and introducing level sync these few would be served, since right now if someone wants to have a challenge during leveling, the only options are either Tactical FPs(again, takes time) or level to 50 in order to participate SM OPS or HM FPs. This is what 4.0 brought to the leveling process. And to get back to the starting point, leveling is a snoozefest and our companions can solo everything.

 

Now, nobody wants nightmare difficulty during leveling, but some quests that aren't just spam basic attack would be welcome.

Here's my thinking on Heroics...

 

I don't think it has anything to do with people finding them too difficult - they were all dumbed down deliberately to make all of them take 1-4 players because they were likely the most underutilized 'group' content in the entire game. By making these easily accessible to players from 10-70, new or vet, they were able to increase the amount of relevant group content by a factor of 3. Difficulty played no part in the change...under-utilization did. Ease of change did.

 

Again, if you want a challenge while playing the story, do PvP. This notion that leveling teaches players to interrupt is folly. Not only do most players NOT learn it, it serves virtually no use at 70 since 99% of the Ops and FP bosses become immune to interrupts.

 

Heroics were dumbed down to create the illusion of more content than Bioware could produce. It had nothing to do with difficulty.

[casirabit]

Here's my thinking on Heroics...

 

I don't think it has anything to do with people finding them too difficult - they were all dumbed down deliberately to make all of them take 1-4 players because they were likely the most underutilized 'group' content in the entire game. By making these easily accessible to players from 10-70, new or vet, they were able to increase the amount of relevant group content by a factor of 3. Difficulty played no part in the change...under-utilization did. Ease of change did.

 

Again, if you want a challenge while playing the story, do PvP. This notion that leveling teaches players to interrupt is folly. Not only do most players NOT learn it, it serves virtually no use at 70 since 99% of the Ops and FP bosses become immune to interrupts.

 

Heroics were dumbed down to create the illusion of more content than Bioware could produce. It had nothing to do with difficulty.

 

Heroics,

 

I did the Heroics 2 back before level sync with my companion and really wasn't that hard, if you had the right gear and paid attention.

 

I did the Heroics 4 with another friend, same situation. I think for the ones that said these were hard they were not paying attention or didn't have the right gear.

 

I can also recall the story Athiss flashpoint (before all the changes to the flashpoints) where it was said you needed 4 players to do it. My boyfriend and I did in with us two and a companion. Was it challenging, yea, but doable if you paid attention. My boyfriend is a tank, me a healer, but he knew what he was doing and in so we were able to do this. We did it for fun and to see if we could do it.

 

You can find or create your own challenges if you look for ways to make things interesting. The problem is most expect someone else to create their fun. I look for ways to create my own.

 

Regarding interrupts, they should learn them though. If you seen the number of posts about Valiyn's Spirit and the Underwatch Hunters you have to laugh. Half of the problems could be solved if they learned to use the interrupt on these fights and using their escape ability. How many use that when they are stunned? That is the first thing I learned . I don't agree the game is too easy, I think some players just don't pay attention to their abilities and nothing will fix that but themselves.

Edited May 12, 2017 by casirabit

[DarthSpuds]

This notion that leveling teaches players to interrupt is folly. Not only do most players NOT learn it, it serves virtually no use at 70 since 99% of the Ops and FP bosses become immune to interrupts.

 

^ This has always been one of my major gripes about this, and other MMORPGs.

 

The problem is that making Bosses immune to interrupts is a prime example of lazy and unintelligent game design.

 

Wildstar handled it much better IMO, where you'd end up with a four man group having to know exactly which skills to interrupt, and which order players would enact those interrupts. It made better group communication and coordination totally necessary. Heck even LOTRO does it better by adding a buff that makes a Boss immune to stuns/interrupts for a period of time after being hit with a stun/interrupt - so player have to think tactically about which skill to interrupt and when to do it.

 

Here in SWTOR we have stun/interrupt immune bosses that spam knockbacks and other CC skills - the big robot on the Voss chapter that knocks you back then 2 seconds later pulls you to him, then knocks you back is a prime example (and all this in content that has to be soloed) - just about the least intelligent and most lazy combat encounter I have ever seen, and indicative of much that is wrong with gameplay in this game - where annoying and grindy have become a proxy for challenging.

 

That said some of the Iokath set piece combats seem a little bit better designed with various combat mechanics; there is still however far too much reliance on Boss Stun Immunity and Boss CC Spam. The encounter developers need to be a little bit more creative and industrious in how they design these encounters.

 

Encounters that make us use what CC/Interrupts we have tactically and intelligently are far more interesting and so fun that the type of combat seen in the Voss Combat Droid encounter.

 

All The Best

[VegasTheLost]

Again, if you want a challenge while playing the story, do PvP. This notion that leveling teaches players to interrupt is folly. Not only do most players NOT learn it, it serves virtually no use at 70 since 99% of the Ops and FP bosses become immune to interrupts.

 

Now this is folly. Interrupt is a huge factor on Draxus, Warlord Kephess, Revanite Commanders, Operator IX, Minefield, Bestia, Calphy, Oasis City. Also for the most part the group have to utilize an interrupt rotation(Draxus and Kephess) so no interrupt is not that useless. And these are just the OPS bosses, I can't count the FP ones. I only used it to present an example.

 

Heroics were dumbed down to create the illusion of more content than Bioware could produce. It had nothing to do with difficulty.

 

This I agree with.

[TUXs]

Now this is folly. Interrupt is a huge factor on Draxus, Warlord Kephess, Revanite Commanders, Operator IX, Minefield, Bestia, Calphy, Oasis City. Also for the most part the group have to utilize an interrupt rotation(Draxus and Kephess) so no interrupt is not that useless. And these are just the OPS bosses, I can't count the FP ones. I only used it to present an example.

I'm not saying it's unimportant to do on certain bosses, but this idea that it's taught to you through leveling is silly. I know it's important, I get that it can make or break some groups...but the number of boss immunities to interrupts makes learning the ones that need to be interrupted, the actual mechanic, not something someone learned via leveling. Most of the times in Ops, if 1 or 2 players in the entire Op knows when to interrupt, you're fine. In about 80% of the PuG groups I do, I'm the only player who interrupts anything.

[ivanhedgehog]

Heroics, ideally were the perfect supplementary challenging quests for small groups. While FPs took/take long time to complete, heroics were the solution for rapid challenges for 2-4 players. Ideally. What happened was that players outleveled them to be bale to solo them, which is quite normal for a game that has levels and the quests are only relevant for level brackets. This was expected and is understandable. Even so since this is an MMO and by that not everything has to be able to be done solo. For some stuff one has to group up. You can argue with this, but there is no point, so please don't.

 

Realize that right now there is no rapid, challenging quests for small groups during leveling. Only tactical FPs, which as mentioned above take more time than heroics (not to mention most of the FPs have solo modes...). Also realize that not everything has to be aimed to the average player. Some like challenging quests during leveling. By not dumbing down the heroics and introducing level sync these few would be served, since right now if someone wants to have a challenge during leveling, the only options are either Tactical FPs(again, takes time) or level to 50 in order to participate SM OPS or HM FPs. This is what 4.0 brought to the leveling process. And to get back to the starting point, leveling is a snoozefest and our companions can solo everything.

 

Now, nobody wants nightmare difficulty during leveling, but some quests that aren't just spam basic attack would be welcome.

 

we come back to the fact that you can make quests challenging if you wish to. There are some quests that are difficult, the Master Yonloch quest on Tat in the sith warrior story. Do that one with just the basic attack. Yes, your companion can solo things. some times. if you have 10 min to wait for every trash group. We can all do silly things in the game and try to use them to change the game the way we want it. Good devs see through that BS and follow their game plan.

[VegasTheLost]

I'm not saying it's unimportant to do on certain bosses, but this idea that it's taught to you through leveling is silly.

 

You are right, it's silly to expect. However I learnt it that way around 3.0 when I was obliterated on a heroic. Than in 4.0 I faced a situation when one of our new members didn't even had it on his quickbar. He didn't needed to learn to use it, how many can be out there? Anyway I think we discussed the interrupt situation quite well.

[TUXs]

You are right, it's silly to expect. However I learnt it that way around 3.0 when I was obliterated on a heroic. Than in 4.0 I faced a situation when one of our new members didn't even had it on his quickbar. He didn't needed to learn to use it, how many can be out there? Anyway I think we discussed the interrupt situation quite well.

I learned it from PvP. My mains are Mados/Merc, so we didn't even have an interrupt when the game launched. I don't know when we got it, but I think it was around 2.0 that we did, so I did all the Heroics without ever even having one (I did every Heroic while leveling because this was all at launch when you had to to get the XP).

 

I think our only difference on this is WHEN a player needs to learn when to use it. I view interrupts as a learned skill from group content, not something needed for leveling.

[IanArgent]

Heroics, ideally were the perfect supplementary challenging quests for small groups. While FPs took/take long time to complete, heroics were the solution for rapid challenges for 2-4 players. Ideally. What happened was that players outleveled them to be bale to solo them, which is quite normal for a game that has levels and the quests are only relevant for level brackets. This was expected and is understandable. Even so since this is an MMO and by that not everything has to be able to be done solo. For some stuff one has to group up. You can argue with this, but there is no point, so please don't.

 

Sure, but Heroics were badly placed and badly supported to be group content. Their mission-givers were (and are) placed in single-player quest hubs, and there is no mechanical support to group up for them (no Group Finder). There is now a clear delineation between solo content and group content. And people didn't do them as group content, not in the main. Not in the past 3-4 years I've been playing the game, anyway.

 

Which leads me to the secondary point I've sort of touched on. The devs needed repeatable farmable content to use to reward Alliance boxes, and they needed to have the development cost be trivial. Since heroics were (apparently) not being used for their design purpose (fast small-group content), they were repurposed to reward alliance crates (and to supplement and replace daily quest zones as the main credit grind, during and after the leveling phase of the game).

 

Realize that right now there is no rapid, challenging quests for small groups during leveling. Only tactical FPs, which as mentioned above take more time than heroics (not to mention most of the FPs have solo modes...). Also realize that not everything has to be aimed to the average player. Some like challenging quests during leveling. By not dumbing down the heroics and introducing level sync these few would be served, since right now if someone wants to have a challenge during leveling, the only options are either Tactical FPs(again, takes time) or level to 50 in order to participate SM OPS or HM FPs. This is what 4.0 brought to the leveling process. And to get back to the starting point, leveling is a snoozefest and our companions can solo everything.

 

I thought at one point Uprisings would cover the niche that Heroics were supposed to (rapid small-group content), but that seems not to be the case. And consider the reaction Uprisings did get - they're commonly reviled for being too short. I'd love to see something to refill that niche, myself; especially if it's available during the leveling phase. OTOH, balancing content against the entire level band is hard to impossible.

 

Now, nobody wants nightmare difficulty during leveling, but some quests that aren't just spam basic attack would be welcome.

 

Difficulty doesn't belong in mandatory content with default assumptions. There are ways to handicap yourself, without affecting the entire player base.

[VegasTheLost]

snip

 

Ian, FFS, please don't make me spell it out for you! Read again what I wrote. Read again what TUXs and I discussed regarding heroics! Pay attention man.

 

OK, last time please pay attention!

 

Base point: introduce level sync

Feature point: keep heroics original/intended difficulty - heavily optional content, supplying bit better gear than class/planetary quests(basically entry level gear for Flashpoints)

Added value: Heroic hub on planets and on fleet with transport - eliminating quest givers apperance in solo section(the horror...)

Bonus: payout in relevance of intended player involvement(more players needed, more credits earned by player involved - basically what we got in 4.0)

 

Forget KotFE and the Alliance grind, the creative department of BWA should've come up with a new/fresh 'grind' stuff instead of dumbing down heroics. They did not come up with anything new(refer to discussion by TUXs and me about rehashing heroics).

 

Repeateable and farmable content should've been new daily areas. Period.

Edited May 12, 2017 by VegasTheLost

[pottymouth]

I remember when they bugged silver mobs when 4.0 first came out and they were doing so much damage. Maybe when they patched 4.0 they broke the difficulty level. Bioware might want to go check this out. Here's my old thread and proof they broke difficulty levels. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=779671

 

Edit: They did state specifically in 4.0 they wanted to make it easier to level so... I think this was originally intended. I think pre-4.0 was better difficulty than it is now.

Edited May 12, 2017 by pottymouth

[stoopicus]

I'm not saying it's unimportant to do on certain bosses, but this idea that it's taught to you through leveling is silly.

 

In my experience, most PvE players don't even know how to use DCDs, much less interrupts. I've run in to PvE players that don't even know they have DCDs. You simply don't need them in story mode with a healing comp, which is how most people run.

 

This is my theory for why many players find the solo Vaylin fight so hard.

Edited May 13, 2017 by stoopicus

[Shaystern]

This is my last subscription. The game is boring and there is no challenge. They should nerf companion...The game was well balanced but with 4.0(?) patch they ruined all the fun of the game.

[stoopicus]

This is my last subscription. The game is boring and there is no challenge. They should nerf companion...The game was well balanced but with 4.0(?) patch they ruined all the fun of the game.

 

So don't take a companion. Or do what I do, run with a DPS companion - it speeds things up nicely while not making you invincible.

 

Healing Companion is indeed easy mode, which is why I don't use them any more.

[Liquor]

ReMember, Pre-4.0 companions that actually used statted gear?

 

Anyone else take their min/maxed companion into those old HMFP solo? I had them on farm and would assist others that just wanted their weeklies completed. Those were a challenge in PvE I enjoyed.

 

But with the removal of unique companion abilities, loss of statted gear, and the dumbed down companions, that wasn't viable anymore. Companions didn't have their tank stats, healed for less and DPS lowered. This is end game influence rank 50 companions in HMFP. They sucked.

 

The game has been going through this dumbing down for a more simple minded casual playerbase since patch 2.6

If you look at the changes, abilities removals, abilities merges, and statted/set bonus gear changes (RNG GEAR IS BACK) you will see what BioWare has done is worse than anything Sony Online Entertainment has ever done.

 

A few examples of this New Game Enhancement:

Acid blade changed from an active into a passive. Bads were not remembering use click on this ability. BW dumbed it down

Hidden Strike removed because players complained of it's short stun. BW later brought a variation of this after they realised it made concealment clunky.

Actual started gear on companions, removed because gearing up companions was hard. It was hard for these fi!thy casual to gear up themselves let alone their companions. This is still a problem now, only highlighted more because of the super fast passing of the leveling process. Players don't have a chance to take their time and learn how to gear properly let alone their own abilities.

Super fast leveling. Since launch we have had complInts about lack of end game content. BW fix is to increase the pace of leveling with x12 XP events and later increased XP gains.

RNG gear was originally removed from the game. Well that **** is back and with a larger grind. Because doing a bit of PvP was too hard for these simple minded pesants. The easiest way to get set bonus gear was made even easier by increased wz comm cap and the lowered cost of the gear. It was an excellent way for these dirty bads to get their set bonus and jump into SMOPS without looking like total turds.

The original phase walker was sin. Why did sorc get it? Because of the War Zone Tourists complaints. These guys would load into a WZ and we knew it was a loss before the match started. They sucked and complained, got phase walk and kept it. Used it to cap nodes on the other side because they are too limp wristed to do it legit.

Level sync. It's a joke and ruined the feel of being strong as you leveled up and geared up. It's a crutch for *******s. It is the game holding your hand because if you die, BW would have to ask you were the mob touched you on a dolly

 

The game has gone through a Combat Upgrade with class abilities being removed, changed from active into passive abilities, and abilities merged to simplify keystrokes.

 

The game has gone through New Game Entitlements as it has been dumbed down to a more simple minded casual playerbase with RNG gearing and companions that play all roles and don't require statted gear, level sync planets

 

 

TL:DR

I called it years ago with patch 2.6 and people still dont get it. They are still sucking on BW ***** and drinking that Kool-Aid. You've been dupped and what SOE did to SWG has already happened to SWTOR, but BW did it over the course of years instead of overnight.

 

Remember actually playing and testing on the test center? When did that actually matter?

Edited May 13, 2017 by Liquor

[bgstranger]

snip

 

Thank you!

[Andryah]

So don't take a companion. Or do what I do, run with a DPS companion - it speeds things up nicely while not making you invincible.

 

Healing Companion is indeed easy mode, which is why I don't use them any more.

 

^^ Exactly.

 

But apparently the person you replied to needs the studio to gimp the entire game just so he does not have to lift a finger to "tune" his companion to be suitably nerfed for his personal needs/wants.

[DarthSpuds]

^^ Exactly.

 

But apparently the person you replied to needs the studio to gimp the entire game just so he does not have to lift a finger to "tune" his companion to be suitably nerfed for his personal needs/wants.

 

They've already gimped the entire game - hence people complaining its too easy.

 

All The Best

[ivanhedgehog]

They've already gimped the entire game - hence people complaining its too easy.

 

All The Best

 

only the lazy people. too lazy to tailor their own game experience to what they want. play how you want, but it will take a tiny bit of effort on your part.

[DarthSpuds]

only the lazy people. too lazy to tailor their own game experience to what they want. play how you want, but it will take a tiny bit of effort on your part.

 

Oh please, I know how to dismiss my companions etc to add difficulty.

 

That doesn't change the FACT that the game is currently massively easier than it was at launch.

 

The game difficulty has been gimped - there is simply no denying that.

 

All The Best

[Liquor]

Thank you!

 

Welcome

 

 

Someone needs to take the heat via edited posts, banns, and warnings from the community managers when stating the obvious. LoL

 

I use 2 accounts just for that reason. Think I have the record for most edited posts, banns, and warnings between both accounts since launch. Only repeat hackers have more banns

Edited May 13, 2017 by Liquor

[Theeko]

Not only have they dumbed down the game but they also crapped on the CM for what it was