Dumbing down of the game, good or bad?

[owlandbearlover]

OP: I totally agree. The original parts of the game just don't give enough of a feeling of satisfaction when replayed. I wish the devs would consider making them replayable with a veteran and master mode like KOTFE.

 

For those disagreeing with the OP: I hear you when you say you don't want to get bogged down in the grind, but some of us are alt-oholics and like playing the original content more than once. There's a balance somewhere in between our two POVs, why can't the devs achieve it instead of having the scales weighted so heavily to one side or the other? I'd at least like to see final bosses and other big bads get their heft back. Just my 2 cents.

[saberscreen]

News flash, Bioware won't remove those things because they want SWTOR to be "accessible" to the masses and not just to the hard core MMO players.

 

I love newsflashes! Just one question if I may: Where are the masses?

 

The important thing, from BW's perspective, is, which gets the most subscribers.

 

Well, they had more subscribers before they changed our skill trees, changed our companions and before they introduced F2P. What do we have today? Less servers than before and a light population on most of those servers for most of the week. And it's been like that for months now.

 

I think I've made my point.

Edited May 11, 2017 by saberscreen

[saberscreen]

Exactly, it's like the people whining about the game being "too easy" aren't disciplined enough not to take advantage of the very things that they complain about and want "Mama Bioware" to force them to play a more difficult version of the game by removing those features from the game.

 

Not only is the game way too easy right now, but there's zero replayability outside of the 8 storyline concept. You talk about Mama Bioware. That's cool. But that's exactly how this game feels right now! It's like Mama Bioware is telling us how to distribute our attribute points:

 

Before these changes, you could actually say: I want a Jedi Knight with stronger Force Powers. What did you do? You would spend more secondary statistics on Willpower. Don't think for yourself! Don't try anything different! Here, all of the classes are going to have Mastery now.

 

Same how Mama Bioware is dictating a limited combination of statistics to us. We can't have Modifications that give Power and Mastery at the same time, can we? We can't have Absorption and Defense on one Augment, can we? Or Enhancements that give both Accuracy and Alacrity. Or Crystals with Defense, Accuracy or Alacrity. God forbid the player would do something smart and have more options and a bit of choice!

 

You are going to decide which companion suits your tactics best? You are going to decide how to gear up your companion to make it better? You want to try something else because it's fun and it adds replayability to this game? Don't be ridiculous! Here's a Lana Beniko for you. It's the same Lana as everyone else's Lana. You can't change anything about her clothes. Not even if you think the other robe would be so much cooler on her. Oh, and all your other companions are going to be exactly like her.

 

That's right. Mama Bioware took away our choices and our options because Mama Bioware knows best. You're the one who likes holding her hand, not me. Like it or not, but this is why a lot of people say this game has been dumbed down. Because it has been dumbed down. It goes beyond the difficulty factor.

[saberscreen]

If these changes actually brought more people in I wouldn't be here arguing. I would've accepted that's what people wanted. I'm trying to represent the loyal Bioware fans who left SWTOR because of these changes I'm arguing against.

 

In this household 2 people stopped subscribing, the other 2 (myself included!) are still disappointed with these changes and wish they would've been reverted yesterday. 11 of my friends stopped playing SWTOR for the exact same reasons. My former guild went from 300 people to 19 people in a matter of two weeks.

 

Most people who played SWTOR before these changes were actually paying customers above the age of 18. Which means they want to be treated like adults, they want options, choices and be challenged to think for themselves. And since they have jobs, the last thing they want is to spend most of their gaming time grinding for gear. It's easy for you to say that this is what people want, because only subscribers can express their opinions on these boards. Well, you should look at server population and what all the people who left SWTOR have to say about it.

 

If you were so right and I was so wrong, where are these masses of players you keep talking about?

[VegasTheLost]

I really don't get this "disable/gimp your companion/etc." argument here, to me it really says that we the players are the companions of our companions. They doing the effort, they doing the fights, we're just tagging along. This is bad design, very bad design and when a new player sees this than it's no wonder that even a Star Wars title can't keep them here.

 

But still, we can't do much about it now, can we? The game was designed this way, with this kill and fetch missions and clearly they are underwhelming. Now I'm not arguing that the 1-50 should be hard, but when our companions can solo the content that just tells a story about the state of the game.

Edited May 11, 2017 by VegasTheLost

[DarthSpuds]

and you are running it with you and your companion. 1+1=2

 

figure it out yet?

 

I thought I made it quite clear that I was running it SOLO in my original post.

 

All The Best

[Einobi]

I guess like any other things, it is good for some but bad for others.

 

It perhaps is good for the hard-core players who seek a challenge, but bad for non-pro players who just want to seek a relaxing entertaining immersive experience.

 

I believe there are no lack of challenges in-game. All the player need to do is just to go play Operation. If existing Operation pose no challenge to them, then perhaps try playing Operation on solo mode (cannot complain that there is Operation group forming). I doubt there is a single player today who can say that doing Operation on solo pose no challenge to them.

 

So that leave the rest of the game (beside Operation) to the rest of the other non-pro players. Let the different group of players have their own room to play. We need not have to impose the same challenge on all players because diversity of player type bring stability to the overall player base of the game.

[IanArgent]

The good of level sync far outweighs the bad. The problem is you...you're looking for a "challenge" without actually looking for one. Dismiss your companion, put them on passive, disable some of their skills...you're whining about LEVELING fluff content, which has NEVER been "challenging" - and should NOT be. You want a challenge? Do group activities without a group. Try a FP with 2 players. PvP. Try an Uprising with 2. Instead of looking to make the casual story crap harder, break out of your solo only mindset and try the content that's meant to be challenging.

 

Not only has leveling content never been hard (after your very first run through if you never read a guide), it should be the absolute easiest thing in the game, since it's mandatory. Everybody "has" to finish their class stories, and they should also finish the planetary arcs to stay "on curve." (Even if BW did base that curve on the PReferred XP gain, not sub XP gain. But there are good reasons to make sure everyone is overleveled and then balance to the level sync cap. But I digress).

[Andryah]

Better a game pretty much everyone can play, both veteran and rookie (and pro and amateur) alike then a game that has a barrier of entry that is simply too high for new players and particularly players new to MMOs.

 

Why? 1) Because lower barrier to entry enables more players to enter a now long established MMO and be able to get up to speed and compete with veterans in terms of content access in a reasonably short amount of time. 2) Veterans, who are the most common complainers about "the dumbing down" are also the players best equipped to simply dial in the degree of difficulty they actually want.

 

If they make the game hard from level 1 upward... then they are artificially freezing out a major section of potential players just because due to native difficulty...... just because some veterans are too lazy to take advantage of existing game mechanics to dial in the degree of difficulty they actually want. Besides... as is true in most MMOs these days... the difficult content is the group content that is tuned such that it cannot actually be soloed.

 

The reality is that the almost complete reworking of companion mechanics in 4.0 had the largest single impact on degree of difficulty on the solo content. Levely sync had some effect, but that can be circumvented easily while leveling by simply working higher level H2s that are orange or red to current level.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Andryah

[Vivanos]

All the people defending the game in it's current state are the ones that helped bring it here.

 

The sweet irony is that this vocal minority comprises about what's left of the population.

[dr_mike]

We've been sitting in chat for the last 10 minutes trying to help someone with a mission. The person has been asked multiple times for the name of the mission and keeps repeating "It's at the end of Taris." We don't know if its class or planet story line.

 

Maybe that's part of the problem.

[DownloadStarter]

I've noticed over the years that SWTOR has become "challenge optional" in its approach to content development. If you want a challenge, it's there - for example, try running an Operative without their rifle; it's doable, it's fun, and if you're not careful you'll die on story content.

 

If you don't want that, gear is definitely much easier to come by now and the companions are gods. Waste stuff, feel like a big bad Sith/Jedi/Other, enjoy the time spent. Multiple paths to victory.

 

I think it would be helpful if more streamers and content creators outside of the game - the people who do the best job spreading word-of-mouth on SWTOR - did some more thinking outside the box and showcased how to find the challenge in this unnamed galaxy. Then maybe it might be easier to point out something for the thrillseeker to do.

 

But there's still challenges to SWTOR (real ones, not just buggy ones!) if one looks off the beaten linear path.

[TUXs]

All the people defending the game in it's current state are the ones that helped bring it here.

Like hell we did. I was 100% AGAINST level sync. If things were too difficult, level up some and come back to do it again...that's how it worked in the past, that worked just fine for me from 1-50. When I got stuck, I did a few PvE space missions and came back to do it again.

 

However...I'm man enough to admit that I was wrong on level sync (which is the root of the difficulty issues). The good of it far outweighs the bad. I can now help new players and friends with my level 70 toons, or other 70's can help me with mine. Level as a limitation to playing together, has been largely removed. I'm no longer a literal God once I'm 5+ levels above a planet...even at 70 I can be killed on Tat...something that was literally impossible prior to 4.0.

 

Prior to Level Sync, you could out-level difficult missions...now you can't. They may be "dumbed down", but they're STORY missions, missions meant to focus on STORY...not challenge. The ability to increase the difficulty is in your hands...I suggest you use it.

[VegasTheLost]

Prior to Level Sync, you could out-level difficult missions...now you can't. They may be "dumbed down", but they're STORY missions, missions meant to focus on STORY...not challenge. The ability to increase the difficulty is in your hands...I suggest you use it.

 

And on the other hand there are the heroics that ment to slowly introduce you to group related mechanics and group content. Gutted for what? I see no point why was it usefull to dumb down heroics AND introduce level sync. Keeping the heroics original difficulty with level sync would've been more sensible and reasonable. That way helping out a lowbie friend with a max level toon would've been the ultimate scope of level sync.

[TUXs]

And on the other hand there are the heroics that ment to slowly introduce you to group related mechanics and group content. Gutted for what? I see no point why was it usefull to dumb down heroics AND introduce level sync. Keeping the heroics original difficulty with level sync would've been more sensible and reasonable. That way helping out a lowbie friend with a max level toon would've been the ultimate scope of level sync.

I agree...it's a shame they got rid of some of them. They were gutted because under Ben's leadership, we weren't given anything new but a terrible story line. They gutted it to minimize any work they needed to do. They gutted them to hide the lack of new content introduced.

[WelbyWars]

as someone mentioned,..I think the level sync is great. IF it wasn't for that with this insane exp boosting event,.I'd be even more drooling faceboarding my class story.

 

Also..mentioned,..Companions. Wow,...I came back recently after years and I am laughing at how OP they are with heals. It's beyond " tuning to lowest denominator", imho.

 

That said,..I am still having a blast,..I came back for story and am not disappointed.

I am expecting level 70 endgame content to be where the 'real' challenge is.

 

Up until then,.I am content to casually make my way up the ladder doing the many different activities provided.

[ivanhedgehog]

All the people defending the game in it's current state are the ones that helped bring it here.

 

The sweet irony is that this vocal minority comprises about what's left of the population.

 

The funny thing here is that people like you are all about managing other peoples game experience. It is so easy to give yourself challenge that it shows us you want to manage everyone elses. You have no idea just who the vocal minority really is. You are making that up trying to show that you represent "everybody". When in reality, you just represent yourself and maybe a few hopeless elitists that cant stand to think that someone enjoys the game differently than themselves.

[RaiderMid]

Well I found some challenge. Vaylin's Spirit with a Madness Assassin going along with screwing up and releasing old boy locked in the box. Good times.

 

Err. Not sure where I got Madness from, it was Deception. Either way a lot of kiting finally took her down.

Edited May 11, 2017 by RaiderMid

[bgstranger]

IMO, you all missing the point here.

It's not about the challenge itself. It's about to do harder stuff to get better rewards.

Nowadays, there's no rewards, but if there any, you don't need them because... you know, bolster.

Back in a days, I've spend hours with a single Heroics, just to get a dreamy offhand which i could use at least 4 levels. And 4 level sometimes means days.

By doing them solo, I have learn that sweet things called LoS, interrupt, DCD timings and more. That's why I almost never die in FP

[Hasisiyun]

Having played since beta myself, please tell me, when was the game challenging?

.

 

Earlier heroics were pretty hard to do solo.

[Andryah]

Earlier heroics were pretty hard to do solo.

 

If you went after them solo and they were red/orance/yellow... yeah... red was near impossible in many cases, but with effort you could do a number of them as orange and almost all at yellow level. You could do them all pretty straightforward if they were green.

 

Of course back in the day, some classes had it easier then others, largely depending on where they were in their classic companion progression. Now days.. with all companions being able to heal, or dps, or tank, and with the ability to build influence quickly with gifts.... even orange H2s are quite doable. People who are leveling, and want a challenge with H2s simply have to choose orange/red missions from the terminal and ignore the yellow or lower ones.

[Soljin]

Earlier heroics were pretty hard to do solo.

 

I do remember that my characters that had a 60 sec CC where able to solo a lot better than the ones that did not... Heroics were previously pretty difficult come to think of it.

[IanArgent]

Prior to Level Sync, you could out-level difficult missions...now you can't. They may be "dumbed down", but they're STORY missions, missions meant to focus on STORY...not challenge. The ability to increase the difficulty is in your hands...I suggest you use it.

 

Emphasis mine, and QFT. Not much to add, really

 

And on the other hand there are the heroics that ment to slowly introduce you to group related mechanics and group content. Gutted for what? I see no point why was it usefull to dumb down heroics AND introduce level sync. Keeping the heroics original difficulty with level sync would've been more sensible and reasonable. That way helping out a lowbie friend with a max level toon would've been the ultimate scope of level sync.

 

Heroics may have been intended to introduce you to group content (though I'd love to slap a [citation needed] on that), but they utterly failed at doing so, because there was no mechanical support for forming groups. And even then I'd argue that the FP series were the on-ramp to Group Content, because they were actually in group finder. In practice, people didn't group for heroics, they overleveled and brute-forced them. So the studio took a fast option to make them "optional/difficult" (though the level of difficulty at the extreme of level sync sown on the Ch.1 planets is debatable, I'll certainly grant that, you can get somewhat mangled through inattention at the higher end, and I still find Aurora Cannon to be invigorating); and made them rewarding to run repeatedly (with a much larger reward for running in groups, one that I noticed they didn't nerf down even when they nerfed the individual payout).

 

HEroics were challenging in a very narrow level band, especially the H4s. the phase between "this is not doable because I don't have the stats" and "I can breeze it because the NPCs can't touch me" was about a level or two, right before the quest went grey. I'm not going to claim that there aren't problems with low-level-planet heroics (if I'm in the mood for some mindless violence, I'll go whomp Savrips and get paid for facerolling, and even up to Allderaan or so I don't really have to think about anything unless there's an Elite, and that's more to remeber they have enough hit points that I ought to use some kind of rotation or spend more time than strictly necessary). But pre4.0 heroics were Yet Another Case of Tedium Pretending To Be Difficulty. And it's not like CZ-198, or Black Hole, or Oricon were particularly hard under 3.x. TUXs may recall one of my other frequent worthy adversaries (Max something or other) in the run-up to 4.x and shortly thereafter being worried that Oricon would be too hard to be worth the effort under level sync.

 

I am mentally unfit to grind grind grind, but even from that view I appreciate that heroics are now worth doing so on, rather than being one-and-done affairs as you passed through the narrow level window where their difficulty was "just right." Without level sync, they never really had meaningful mechanics, because you could overlevel them. (This held true for FPs as well; who cared about the boss mechanics when you were literally immune to damage?)

[VegasTheLost]

snip

 

I remember quite well that almost every heroic had group of mobs 1-2 elite/champion in them with a cast that resulted in a nasty something. Learn to interrupt. Or if not casting something, placing an aoe so you learn to move out stupid because it hurts. And stuff like this. You've learnt this. And surprise, in FPs and OPS these mechanics are the same. Level sync would've reserved them in their status as a challenging optional mission for small groups. Buit as we know the nerfhammer came.

 

I am mentally unfit to grind grind grind, but even from that view I appreciate that heroics are now worth doing so on, rather than being one-and-done affairs as you passed through the narrow level window where their difficulty was "just right." Without level sync, they never really had meaningful mechanics, because you could overlevel them. (This held true for FPs as well; who cared about the boss mechanics when you were literally immune to damage?)

 

Me too, and I'm still not arguing on level sync. I'm arguing that with level sync, dumbing down heroics was un-needed when 4.0 hit. I would love to do them now with synced down to their level in their original difficulty, it would be great to have my guildies around me working on them. Insted, now "guys, need some money, wanna zerg through some heroics? sure." *zerging and snoozing* $$$profit$$$

 

That way we were bound to try a little at least.

 

Oh, and it was Max_Killjoy

Edited May 12, 2017 by VegasTheLost

[PJDillon]

Wouldn't a good healer/tank combo make PvP harder? Most of the time in regs people are going full retard trying to tunnel heals without realizing they have guard. Even how healing is right now..you can drop a team quick if you and others know what you're doing. I've been PvPing since 1.2...I've enjoyed every second of it since then. I do wish there was a reg arena solo/group queue though so people could learn to play them better though.. as well as them bringing 8v8 ranked back. In regards to PvE leveling... 1-50 was never hard if you knew what you were doing. I enjoy the game for what it is...Hopefully down the road they will have more challenging content for people.