6 Years In, Compare SWTOR to SWG? Story VS Sandbox?

[Soljin]

Ok lets go though your post line by line.

 

First I agree that it was not established that they did play SWG.

However. you did say...

"I think you have said this twice now...So now I will straight ask, Did you play SWG prior to the NGE? I think you might say yes...but I'm pretty confident you did not."

 

So basically you are saying he lies before he even answered? maybe not what you meant but that's how I read it.

 

This was a bit harsh and for that I apologize to any offended parties.

 

My point was lost in that people are talking about SWG failures when in fact these were SOE failures not the game designs. As such I want to know if they are qualified to even understand how great SWG actually was in its design.

 

Then ....

"Everyone is trying to talk about models and marketing blah blah...WoW is why most MMOs on the market currently stink...People trying to mimic a basic game design that had massive content that no one wanted to put the effort in to produce on the clones...

 

Until the MMO market gets back to making deep and interesting games like SWG but managing them properly rather than destroying them for better monetization, MMOs will continue to suck."

 

Ok don't have an issue with your opinion on the state of MMO's however it is your opinion. SWG's did not last WoW is still going. Now I have not played WoW and had very limited experience with SWG, enough to know is was not for me. Still clearly you enjoyed it and again no issue there. Still the game ended. Why? If it was such a deep and interesting game, why did so many walk away to such a degree that it became no longer viable to keep it going? Now I can not answer that myself has did not play it and only saw enough to know it was not for me. The last part hints that it was mismanaged towards the end? That however does not really say why?

 

You could take any game even WoW and not manage it well and we would have seen an entirely different result...It would not have been the game design fault it would have been Blizzards...

 

SOE intially drove players away by mishandling balance in the game (Mostly nerfing certain skill lines into uselessness). This started the first wave of people leaving... This continued for a while because they continued to deconstruct the game through heavy handed nerfs...

 

Then to react to their own failures they changed the core design of the game slightly commonly known as the CU...This caused another wave of players leaving likely because it was a substantial change to the game with mixed reviews.

 

Finally it was let out that the CU was only the first change and the NGE was announced which essentially changed core elements of the game. Petitions were made, many were quite vocal against the change and SOE pushed it through regardless.

 

This was later called the mass exodus because so many people left the game after the NGE went live including myself, all said the same thing...this was no longer the game they purchased. If I recall a portion of the player base tried to launch a class action law suit over that theory against SOE.

 

Some of the players later got together and created Emulators of the game because it was so loved by many...At least one is still running.

 

The last part of your post . Then went on to say...

"You may not get it now...but eventually someone will figure it out."

 

So what is anyone going to take from that line? Well maybe it was just late and I read it the wrong way? I read to say that he was to stupid to understand it, but someone else will figure it out, just not him.

 

This was to imply that a company, likely an indie company will release a game that is deep, complex and focused on a fun experience rather than efficient monetization and it will supernova like WoW did. Everyone will then begin to try and copy that model and MMO gaming will be better for it...

 

This is purely speculation but the MMO industry is in shambles currently because of all the attempts to better monetize the genre...eventually a change will happen (likely from a company not owned by a money investment Corp. yet) my theory about how that will happen is here.

 

Most people make their debates based off the market trends and known data...The people who change the market and create mold breaking products don't care about the current trends and data...

 

They look past it.

 

Ok As I said it was late and probably was overthinking it and it was probably not what you meant. Also was not in the best of moods from a different thread where yet again others think they have a right to say what happens to other players accounts.

So if I owe you an apology, sure don't mind doing so if I read your post wrong.

 

You dont owe me anything.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Soljin

[ivanhedgehog]

If you want to find out if someone really played SWG especially from the start, post and talk nice about SOE....If they lose their mind all over you... they played SWG.

 

Both city of heroes and SWG seem to have built a following of fans that would go back to them in a second. They didnt copy wow and it shows it. It says something about a game that people still want it like that after all these years.

[Andryah]

I think you have said this twice now...So now I will straight ask, Did you play SWG prior to the NGE? I think you might say yes...but I'm pretty confident you did not.

 

Everyone is trying to talk about models and marketing blah blah...WoW is why most MMOs on the market currently stink...People trying to mimic a basic game design that had massive content that no one wanted to put the effort in to produce on the clones...

 

Until the MMO market gets back to making deep and interesting games like SWG but managing them properly rather than destroying them for better monetization, MMOs will continue to suck.

 

You may not get it now...but eventually someone will figure it out.

 

And then all the followers will make clones and we will enter the next golden age of MMOs...

 

I played both pre-NGE and post NGE. Personally, I preferred pre-NGE, which by the way would be even less successful in todays market then the silly reboot with NGE.

 

In my opinion, you need better conspiracy theories to attack players you disagree with. Better yet, learn to discuss points and counterpoints without resorting to attempts to defame.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Andryah

[Andryah]

Both city of heroes and SWG seem to have built a following of fans that would go back to them in a second. They didnt copy wow and it shows it. It says something about a game that people still want it like that after all these years.

 

It's just MMO nostalgia. It includes going all the way back to early Asherons Call, and the earlier classics. I have fond memories of most of the MMOs I have played over the years, but I do not regret moving on to better things, nor the demise of the earlier generation MMOs... where you had to invest time and commitment to play.... which is no longer an actual requirement in today's MMO products (with just a few exceptions).

 

The problem.. 15 years later.... they are not coming back. The playerbase of MMOs for the most part post-dates the early classics.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Andryah

[Soljin]

I played both pre-NGE and post NGE. Personally, I preferred pre-NGE, which by the way would be even less successful in todays market then the silly reboot with NGE.

 

In my opinion, you need better conspiracy theories to attack players you disagree with. Better yet, learn to discuss points and counterpoints without resorting to attempts to defame.

 

 

First off asking if you played is not an attempt to "Defame" it's relevant to validating your claims.

 

Out of curiosity what did you like specifically about Original SWG that was not enough to make you think the game was exceptional in comparison to SWToRs shallow design?

Edited April 24, 2017 by Soljin

[Soljin]

Actually I'm going to end this one short. I'm dumping this thread too, Laterz! Edited April 24, 2017 by Soljin

[TUXs]

Completely different game types. SWTOR is a themepark with very few new rides, but SWG was a sandbox with too few toys. Combine these two and you would have a tremendous hit.

[Soljin]

Completely different game types. SWTOR is a themepark with very few new rides, but SWG was a sandbox with too few toys. Combine these two and you would have a tremendous hit.

 

Simply put...Agreed laterz x2.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Soljin

[Anzel]

These are two completely separate games. I play the EMU, I play SWTOR. There are things that I like / hate about both of them.

 

SWG died for me when they ruined the Jedi system. They slowly chipped away at it with each and every patch. The NGE was basically the nuclear bomb that turned me off forever.

 

SWTOR died for me when they went 99% gambling boxes. Not having dyes in collections. Not having tunings in collections shows a blatant disdain for players. RNG is used as a crutch in the worst possible ways and totally ruins the experience.

 

I went from six accounts down to one. Nobody in my family plays this game and I only keep this one account out of curiosity. I don't even have the game installed at this point.

[HuaRya]

These are two completely separate games. I play the EMU, I play SWTOR. There are things that I like / hate about both of them.

 

SWG died for me when they ruined the Jedi system. They slowly chipped away at it with each and every patch. The NGE was basically the nuclear bomb that turned me off forever.

.

 

Couldn't disagree more. RNG crates along with Unassembled components have allowed me to gear up an Imp with a mirror Pub class eg Merc/Mando Sniper/Slinger. Prior to that it was tedium to gear both a PVE and PVP set for one toon and you were never able to get certain set pieces because they only dropped on certain bosses in operations.

 

Finally!! Woot!! I don't have to be in a dedicated raid group (or a guild for that matter). I can do the stuff I really like to do like PVP/GSF/ and Story Mode operations because they are easy and a change of scenery. All of these generate crates and unassembled components. Now they give gear for each boss like they did before and they are keeping the RNG crates for the silent majority of us who enjoy them.

 

For me the game is better than it ever was. No longer struggling for money or worried about my status in a guild that allows me the opportunity to raid two nights a week in hopes of getting that one piece of gear. I spent all of 4.0 in a raid group just hoping to get a 224 helmet and never did.

 

I'm playing SWTOR more than ever on a very active server. For folks on a low pop server I can understand why these reflective 'let's wax nostalgia' post-threads are popping up. There are two of you online in your guild of 900 and Imperial fleet has fallen silent. But that is another issue. Anyways, thank you RNG you got me geared up on more toons faster than ever!!

[t-darko]

The game is about to lose it's soul, and the games soul is Star Wars. At the same time an MMOs survivability is only as good as its game development, as in core game and its Endgame content. Some will argue that the End Game is the core game and I understand that stand point though I'm not agreeing. The core of this Game was built around Star Wars in general and more specifically the groundwork from KotOR 1 & 2. Swtor origin is unique in every aspect of an MMO, the Idea of leveling being the experience works, but only on those who "get it".

 

so what am I saying!? Well Star Wars is story, always has been, always will be. In this game(Swtor Origin lvl 1-50) the Story is presented in the leveling. Raids and PvP is what's supposed to keep us hooked while waiting for that Unique Star Wars Experience this game i capable of through the latest xpac and patches we'd been presented with(The fps's leading up to SoR is the last time the Game presented any Good Story content) is at best mediocre, and barely at an minimal acceptable level.

 

What I expect from Keith(the new Lead Producer) is Good Star Wars centered story development, Raids and pvp maps that enhance that experience in a regular and steady flow. And for good sake tone down the obvious money grabbing greed features that really is what 5.0 and beyond has been all about.

Edited April 24, 2017 by t-darko

[Eanelinea]

TL;DR: times change, and as such so do player tastes and studio focus to gather and retain a player base. There is no going back.

 

Oh, this is so so true. I never played SWG, so have no opinion about that, but it does sound like how Everquest is/was. For example, you may need to grind some mobs, grind some crafting material, grind whatever one needs to grind in SWTOR and all I hear is people ************ about having to grind. 'OMGGGGGGGGGGGGG! It's gonna take an hour to get all that stuffffffffffffffffffff!'

 

In Everquest, to level ONE level, you did nothing but grind mobs all day, every day and it took a LONG time to level one level. There you HAD to group for just about EVERY SINGLE THING you did. If you couldn't find a group, too bad, hopefully you were a class who could quad-kite. There were no quests, no stories, no one to really talk to. Hell, there were no maps, you had to look on line and hope someone took the time to make maps for you.

 

The above may sound bad, but then, if you wanted your epic weapon and there were 3 if I remember, 1.0, 1.5 and 2.0, you had to grind for items, then get a 50-70 man ops group to gather together to fight a raid boss. There were NO instanced raids. If another guild took out a raid boss, you had to wait for the respawn timer. Could be 3 hours or 3 weeks, REAL LIFE weeks, not game weeks.

 

Speaking of respawns....when you were doing any quests you could find by asking specific questions to anyone you could "HAIL", there was no guarantee that mob/mobs/boss was even up. Some took 3 hours, some took 3 weeks and you would literally have to camp that spot, and then there was a slim chance that mob even had the item on them and you'd have to do it all over again.

[Djake]

Oh, this is so so true. I never played SWG, so have no opinion about that, but it does sound like how Everquest is/was. For example, you may need to grind some mobs, grind some crafting material, grind whatever one needs to grind in SWTOR and all I hear is people ************ about having to grind. 'OMGGGGGGGGGGGGG! It's gonna take an hour to get all that stuffffffffffffffffffff!'

 

In Everquest, to level ONE level, you did nothing but grind mobs all day, every day and it took a LONG time to level one level. There you HAD to group for just about EVERY SINGLE THING you did. If you couldn't find a group, too bad, hopefully you were a class who could quad-kite. There were no quests, no stories, no one to really talk to. Hell, there were no maps, you had to look on line and hope someone took the time to make maps for you.

 

The above may sound bad, but then, if you wanted your epic weapon and there were 3 if I remember, 1.0, 1.5 and 2.0, you had to grind for items, then get a 50-70 man ops group to gather together to fight a raid boss. There were NO instanced raids. If another guild took out a raid boss, you had to wait for the respawn timer. Could be 3 hours or 3 weeks, REAL LIFE weeks, not game weeks.

 

Speaking of respawns....when you were doing any quests you could find by asking specific questions to anyone you could "HAIL", there was no guarantee that mob/mobs/boss was even up. Some took 3 hours, some took 3 weeks and you would literally have to camp that spot, and then there was a slim chance that mob even had the item on them and you'd have to do it all over again.

 

 

SWG really had very little similarity to EverCamp

[Soljin]

What I expect from Keith(the new Lead Producer) is Good Star Wars centered story development, Raids and pvp maps that enhance that experience in a regular and steady flow. And for good sake tone down the obvious money grabbing greed features that really is what 5.0 and beyond has been all about.

 

I agree with quite a bit of your post but this part rings very loud with me.

 

Story was the additional pillar for SWToR and the basis for what was going to make this game different from all other MMOs.

 

It's understandable they have not been able to produce all the class stories and moved to one story line I get that...But do it well, do it better than everyone else that is what this game was sold on...

 

With that said you have two options in addition to story...

 

1) start adding major depth to existing systems already in the game to make them interesting and thus engaging (No not grindy and tedious AKA 5.0 gearing).

 

Example: If people like crafting because its deep relatively complex but still accessible and most importantly fun and useful....they will spend tons of time crafting and that eats up time...In some games people spend more time crafting than in combat...

 

2) begin a regular and robust content cycle for the game... No example needed.

 

You either make the game interesting enough through depth to hold players interest or you release regular content that will keep them busy....that's it.

 

Number 1 is basically SWG and Number 2 is basically WoW...

Edited April 24, 2017 by Soljin

[Soljin]

SWG really had very little similarity to EverCamp

 

Actually the irony here is that the SOE developers straight said they put the NGE into place so that they could use cross game Devs between SWG and I think it was EQ2...

 

Which is why they completely changed the entire game core mechanics and all..the Original SWG had nothing in common with any other MMO at that time.

 

Always trying to save a buck while losing 10 those Devs...

Edited April 24, 2017 by Soljin

[Liquor]

Actually the irony here is that the SOE developers straight said they put the NGE into place so that they could use cross game Devs between SWG and I think it was EQ2...

 

Which is why they completely changed the entire game core mechanics and all..the Original SWG had nothing in common with any other MMO at that time.

 

Always trying to save a buck while losing 10 those Devs...

 

SWG had a lot similar to Anarchy Online. The original SciFi MMORPG and it is still going and doing things SWG and SWTOR never did.

 

 

Anyways I would give away all my stuff in swtor for swg anyway of the week. I miss my ships, real space PvP and player bounties

[Soljin]

SWG had a lot similar to Anarchy Online. The original SciFi MMORPG and it is still going and doing things SWG and SWTOR never did.

 

 

Anyways I would give away all my stuff in swtor for swg anyway of the week. I miss my ships, real space PvP and player bounties

 

If they re-released Original SWG with updated graphics on a decent Engine I would play it until I could no longer summon the strength to press keys...

[stoopicus]

If they re-released Original SWG with updated graphics on a decent Engine I would play it until I could no longer summon the strength to press keys...

 

Original? They would need to make it much less grindy, take a serious look at the profession balance, greatly increase the force user options, and address the many bugs (flame DoT tick, lol).

 

But if they did that I'd spend a lot of time there too, despite my other criticisms of it.

 

That said I greatly, greatly prefer the Old Republic era over the A New Hope era. There's just so much more there. It feels like the A New Hope era is the bleak dystopian future of the Old Republic era (which I guess it is) - and that feel definitely extended in to SWG.

[Soljin]

Original? They would need to make it much less grindy, take a serious look at the profession balance, greatly increase the force user options, and address the many bugs (flame DoT tick, lol).

 

But if they did that I'd spend a lot of time there too, despite my other criticisms of it.

 

That said I greatly, greatly prefer the Old Republic era over the A New Hope era. There's just so much more there. It feels like the A New Hope era is the bleak dystopian future of the Old Republic era (which I guess it is) - and that feel definitely extended in to SWG.

 

I absolutely agree 100% with your response. They would need to fix bugs and balance some of the weapons etc...

 

The key word is balance...The first go around they Nerfed everything so hard when they attempted to "balance" no Power Nerfs.

 

I think it's been said before an SWG Reboot in the Old Republic Era but more polished than the original SWG would be the perfect Star Wars MMO.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Soljin

[Aylisis]

If they re-released Original SWG with updated graphics on a decent Engine I would play it until I could no longer summon the strength to press keys...

 

I wholeheartedly agree with this!

[Drisin]

A really good read about SWG development. The game could have been so much more than what we got.

 

https://www.raphkoster.com/2015/04/16/a-jedi-saga/

[stoopicus]

A really good read about SWG development. The game could have been so much more than what we got.

 

https://www.raphkoster.com/2015/04/16/a-jedi-saga/

 

Well, to be fair, Raph was part of the problem too, though. At the time it really felt like he designed the game he wanted to design, and not a Star Wars game. You had to put a lot of time into SWG before it really felt like Star Wars. As an analogy, it felt like a much, much slower paced and more spread out Rogue One than Star Wars.

 

The problem was the game was hyped as if it were a heroic Star Wars space opera, and it was anything but that. Which is not really a criticism of the game, just a statement of how it felt at the time.

Edited April 26, 2017 by stoopicus

[Soljin]

A really good read about SWG development. The game could have been so much more than what we got.

 

https://www.raphkoster.com/2015/04/16/a-jedi-saga/

 

Sad really, one of the deepest MMOs of all time with crazy potential even though it was being crippled before it could even launch.

[Soljin]

Well, to be fair, Raph was part of the problem too, though. At the time it really felt like he designed the game he wanted to design, and not a Star Wars game. You had to put a lot of time into SWG before it really felt like Star Wars. As an analogy, it felt like a much, much slower paced and more spread out Rogue One than Star Wars.

 

The problem was the game was hyped as if it were a heroic Star Wars space opera, and it was anything but that. Which is not really a criticism of the game, just a statement of how it felt at the time.

 

Whenever I started missing the Star Wars feel in SWG I would just go murder tons of Storm Troopers But there were times when you could not even distinguish you were in a Star Wars game, I remember that.

 

Its kind of like KoTET and KoTEF for me...They don't feel like Star Wars...Something is missing I just can't name it.