6 Years In, Compare SWTOR to SWG? Story VS Sandbox?

[Soljin]

I agree with there being a middle ground. Sandbox simply does not appeal to enough players to support a large MMO, and theme park seems to get boring early and easy for some players. Personally, I find sandbox to be quite boring, and given all the people that demand Bioware step in and code-override any in game feature or experience they do not like.. I wonder how such players could actually cope with a Sandbox game.

 

This MMO has planetary boundaries for content, so I would like to see them make an actual planet with a planet specific set of sandbox rules. I bet, if they did... most players would ignore the planet entirely since there is "nothing to do" and they have to create their own fun... but it would be a great innovation experiment for SWTOR. I would want a side team added in the studio to do this, so as to not drain resources from the core of the game.

 

The problem here is I do not think a middle ground approach where there is both sandbox and theme park content will actually work well with today's MMO player base. But I would like to see that proven with a real life attempt.

 

SWG was a great advance in MMOs in it's day.. but it is primitive by today's standards, and does not represent state of the art in Sandbox (that would be EVE Online that holds that priviledge). If you launched it today, it would fail, and fail hard.

 

Actually I think you are wrong here... BDO is hybrid sandbox and its NA Servers are all full at peak times and they have many. The biggest reasons people complain about the game is the aggressive monetization tactics (Similar to SWToR) and the excessive RnG aspects (Also similar to SWToR).

 

Using BDO once again, the things people love about that game openly are not only sandbox elements but are also scarily similar to the old SWG crafting etc...

 

Regarding SWG being "primitive to today's standards"...If you mean graphics and engine yes that is true. If you mean in game systems such as crafting, combat advancement systems, and pretty much everything else then no... SWG was well past its time and current MMOs actually went backwards in complexity trying to copy WoWs very old school yet simple and polished systems...

 

The game design for SWG was so ahead of its time the industry still has not caught up...That said Sony devolved the game considerably and its last iteration did not live up to my statement AKA the NGE.

 

By the way you describe SWG I am forced to assume you either didn't play the game or came in after the NGE...

Edited April 23, 2017 by Soljin

[VanderII]

All people love SWG but nobody played it.

[Soljin]

All people love SWG but nobody played it.

 

If you want to find out if someone really played SWG especially from the start, post and talk nice about SOE....If they lose their mind all over you... they played SWG.

Edited April 23, 2017 by Soljin

[Alec_Fortescue]

SWG had traditional Jedi robes unlike SWTOR after 6 years of requests...

[Soljin]

SWG had traditional Jedi robes unlike SWTOR after 6 years of requests...

 

Yep and you had to be a Jedi or Sith (Black version) to wear them...and prior to the NGE that was not an easy task.

Edited April 23, 2017 by Soljin

[Aylisis]

If you want to find out if someone really played SWG especially from the start, post and talk nice about SOE....If they lose their mind all over you... they played SWG.

 

To be honest, I feel we had more communication with the dev team on SWG than what we get from SWTOR now. It's really starting to feel the same, and have being witness to multiple closures, blood is in the water here and the ship is starting to list.

 

Look at how fast EA replaced SW Battlefront. With all the money pouring in from Star Wars I wouldn't be surprised to see something new come up. Something more relevant to the current money making era of Star Wars.

[Soljin]

To be honest, I feel we had more communication with the dev team on SWG than what we get from SWTOR now. It's really starting to feel the same, and have being witness to multiple closures, blood is in the water here and the ship is starting to list.

 

Look at how fast EA replaced SW Battlefront. With all the money pouring in from Star Wars I wouldn't be surprised to see something new come up. Something more relevant to the current money making era of Star Wars.

 

I agree... Their aggressive monetization tactics have not worked out and MMOs are known for being very high maintenance... EA will likely drop a modified MMO model that is lower maintenance and kill off SWToR.

 

My guess is we will be looking at a Destiny style multi platform game in the Star Wars IP that will replace SWToR.

Edited April 23, 2017 by Soljin

[Ralei]

 

Anyone noticed how Dorne drew her blaster, but never fired a single shot, and Theron missed Jace, at close range lol, and you just stood there while he tried ot activate the "superweapon".

 

I'm just tired of this ****.

 

I feel like it's pretty obvious that Theron missed Jace on purpose But you do have a point about standing there while he's charging up the lasers. I think, though, that my warrior, as a force user, knew Jace was about to fry himself to a crisp, you even get to remark about how he's lost his damn mind. So I don't think my warrior felt any real danger from the situation, just wanted to see how it played out because it was amusing. That's how I justify it anyway.

[Ralei]

To be honest, I feel we had more communication with the dev team on SWG than what we get from SWTOR now. It's really starting to feel the same, and have being witness to multiple closures, blood is in the water here and the ship is starting to list.

.

 

I don't think so. I remember those days well. The atmosphere here is no where near the same.

 

I think you have a lot of valid points about the Iokath story, especially that it does feel like a non-force user's saga after just coming from a force user extravaganza. And "hamburger face" lul. I just don't see the parallels you're trying to draw with SWG. The circumstances are far more complicated than just "sandbox" vs "story" , not to mention they existed (in their primes) in 2 different eras of mmo history.

 

I had such huge nostalgia for swg I tried an emu and thought, *** was I so obsessed with?

[Joluka]

SWG was the best game I've ever played. I could free roam in space, man. Just explore and live in Naboo. So good, so, so good.

 

It also had this awesome crafting system and roleplayability that I loved.

[Soljin]

I don't think so. I remember those days well. The atmosphere here is no where near the same.

 

I think you have a lot of valid points about the Iokath story, especially that it does feel like a non-force user's saga after just coming from a force user extravaganza. And "hamburger face" lul. I just don't see the parallels you're trying to draw with SWG. The circumstances are far more complicated than just "sandbox" vs "story" , not to mention they existed (in their primes) in 2 different eras of mmo history.

 

I had such huge nostalgia for swg I tried an emu and thought, *** was I so obsessed with?

 

If you played the EMU you likely played the NGE version of SWG which was garbage in comparison to the original and even the CU version.

 

NGE had removed most of what made SWG great in an attempt to make it easier to have cross game development teams with other SOE titles at that time.

 

I will rarely insist that my statement is correct and challengers of my ideas are wrong but in the case of the Original and even the CU version of SWG I will. That game was so advanced even one of its complex systems would likely bring wildly positive responses to this game. For instance the original creature handler or any of the crafting aspects...

Edited April 23, 2017 by Soljin

[Rankyn]

SWG still had a healthy enough and profiting sub population when it shut down... far healthier than many MMOs that are still existing today.

Actually, it didn't.

The only thing that kept it hanging on for as long as it did was the Trading Card Game.

That was its equivalent of the Cartel Market.

The game had well under 100k subscribers but the cash from the TCG lottery more than made up for it because people wanted those rare in-game items.

As one of the devs told me, the thing was practically a license to print money and without it, they'd have gone under.

It turns out you can get a lot of information out of developers when you buy them alcohol.

 

So no, it wasn't the subscribers that were keeping the game alive, it was the "cash shop" doing it.

Just like they did it with this game.

[Ralei]

If you played the EMU you likely played the NGE version of SWG which was garbage in comparison to the original and even the CU version.

 

NGE had removed most of what made SWG great in an attempt to make it easier to have cross game development teams with other SOE titles at that time.

 

I will rarely insist that my statement is correct and challengers of my ideas are wrong but in the case of the Original and even the CU version of SWG I will. That game was so advanced even one of its complex systems would likely bring wildly positive responses to this game. For instance the original creature handler or any of the crafting aspects...

 

Oh It was definitely a pre-cu emu Don't get me wrong, I know the complexity and depth of that game is what made it fantastic. I thoroughly enjoyed almost every part of that game, but trying to get back into it required a huge commitment I couldn't make.

 

It's much easier for people to jump in and enjoy a game like this one. Games need to find that sweet spot of hiding their complexity behind an addictive, simple interface. And then, how do you maintain all the complexity when most of its devs are immediately shuffled on to the next game in development?

 

Seems like most mmo's are built like a giant palace and then a demo team immediately comes to dismantle it brick by brick because the owners can't afford the electricity to run it.

[Soljin]

Actually, it didn't.

The only thing that kept it hanging on for as long as it did was the Trading Card Game.

That was its equivalent of the Cartel Market.

The game had well under 100k subscribers but the cash from the TCG lottery more than made up for it because people wanted those rare in-game items.

As one of the devs told me, the thing was practically a license to print money and without it, they'd have gone under.

It turns out you can get a lot of information out of developers when you buy them alcohol.

 

So no, it wasn't the subscribers that were keeping the game alive, it was the "cash shop" doing it.

Just like they did it with this game.

 

Lets not forget about the development team willfully purging a large portion of the original player base by going against an overwhelming outcry not to move forward with the CU and eventually the NGE.

 

Their "cash shop" may have kept the SWG NGE floating like SWToR's CM but if they had not dumped their player base first it may not have been needed (We will never know). Not to mention the NGE was literally a gutted version of the game with the same title...Everyone I played with and I mean everyone left the day they launched it including me.

 

Parallels can be drawn between the two games the difference is that Original SWG had the depth needed to be off the charts but was managed poorly and suffered for it.

 

SWToR doesnt have that depth but had story instead...they started out ok but basically dropped the ball...

Edited April 23, 2017 by Soljin

[Soljin]

Seems like most mmo's are built like a giant palace and then a demo team immediately comes to dismantle it brick by brick because the owners can't afford the electricity to run it.

 

Sadly this seems pretty accurate.

[Kaisernick]

As a SWG player you can not compare the two.

 

Both excel via different means:

TOR had a brilliant story and is one of the only reasons i come back, its combat is better as well (though recent so called upgrades i think have made some classes worse off) pvp is sort of a middle ground as i like the warzones but lack of world pvp is obvious. TOR fails in its social aspects you rarly forge bonds with players and its only gotten more solo content as the game has gone on and its space combat is dreadful.

 

SWG had better crafting better community better housing and had a space combat that is so much better than TOR'S in every way, but its planets were a little dull and its lack of real story can mean that you had to make your own way, not a bad thing at times but i still prefer TOR's.

 

You will also find that SWG vets will differ on what version of SWG is better the pre cu the cu or the NGE for example i preferred the CU and very late NGE (though i didn't like the jedi being a starting class)

[Soljin]

You will also find that SWG vets will differ on what version of SWG is better the pre cu the cu or the NGE for example i preferred the CU and very late NGE (though i didn't like the jedi being a starting class)

 

True, The NGE was why I left the game along with everyone I played with...

Edited April 23, 2017 by Soljin

[Rankyn]

Lets not forget about the development team willfully purging a large portion of the original player base by going against an overwhelming outcry not to move forward with the CU and eventually the NGE.

And they did that because the game was in a death spiral.

Be cause as had been said many times... the forum represents such a tiny portion of the total number of players.

If the outcry had really been so huge, subscription numbers wouldn't have been nosediving.

The game had lost 10% of its subscribers after 6 months.

That's a huge thing for an MMO.

WoW only made things worse for SOE in general because it hurt all their games across the board.

 

Did they go about trying to save SWG the wrong way?

Absolutely.

It'll be used as a case study for years to come about how not to save your game.

But the fact is that their game was failing and they had to do something to save it.

The CU didn't do it.

 

I got a chance to look at a summary of the original CU docs (and may even still have them somewhere) and what we got was not the original version of the CU.

But when that change didn't pay off, they had to neuter the game and make it something more appealing to the masses because WoW was a thing and F2P wasn't a thing yet.

 

So nostalgic people may want to see the game through rose color glasses but what they often fail to comprehend is that rose color comes from the rapid bleeding of subscribers.

It doesn't matter how innovative a game may be, if it's not making any money, its business isn't sustainable.

 

SWTOR had an even larger dropoff in subscribers after a similar amount of time but 1) its total subscriber numbers at the time were easily 5x higher than SWG's so it had a little more breathing room 2) EA was in a better position to absorb the loss than SOE, and 3) F2P was a thing now.

[Andryah]

And they did that because the game was in a death spiral.

Be cause as had been said many times... the forum represents such a tiny portion of the total number of players.

If the outcry had really been so huge, subscription numbers wouldn't have been nosediving.

The game had lost 10% of its subscribers after 6 months.

That's a huge thing for an MMO.

WoW only made things worse for SOE in general because it hurt all their games across the board.

 

Did they go about trying to save SWG the wrong way?

Absolutely.

It'll be used as a case study for years to come about how not to save your game.

But the fact is that their game was failing and they had to do something to save it.

The CU didn't do it.

 

I got a chance to look at a summary of the original CU docs (and may even still have them somewhere) and what we got was not the original version of the CU.

But when that change didn't pay off, they had to neuter the game and make it something more appealing to the masses because WoW was a thing and F2P wasn't a thing yet.

 

So nostalgic people may want to see the game through rose color glasses but what they often fail to comprehend is that rose color comes from the rapid bleeding of subscribers.

It doesn't matter how innovative a game may be, if it's not making any money, its business isn't sustainable.

 

SWTOR had an even larger dropoff in subscribers after a similar amount of time but 1) its total subscriber numbers at the time were easily 5x higher than SWG's so it had a little more breathing room 2) EA was in a better position to absorb the loss than SOE, and 3) F2P was a thing now.

 

Excellent assessment in my view.

 

Post launch attrition levels are an interesting dynamic in MMOs, that has changed significantly over time. Back in the early 2000s... MMOs required a lot more time investment and effort to progress, so players who entered an MMO tended to set down roots for the long haul and stuck with an MMO through the peaks and valleys that they all experience. So attrition rates were actually pretty low, but so were actual total player numbers.. until WoW came along.

 

Fast forward a decade and things have changed significantly, with many more MMOs, and more importantly the better part of a decade of WoW setting the bar for every other MMO in terms of making MMOs fun, fast, and easy to level in. And with that came less time investment and commitment, and less willingness to stick around for the long term. This was probably best exemplified by the MMO Rift... because it came at a time right before F2P really proliferated in the market, and at a time when MMOs were being made more easy to enter and play in. And.. it suffered what has become a classic metric in the modern era ---> 60%+ attrition in the first 6 months for a new MMO. Players have more choices, less patience, and are more influenced by non-MMO game approaches and proliferations influencing how they view ALL digital games.

 

If SWG launched today, it would fail and fail hard in today's market. There would be a niche for it, but a niche is all it would obtain. In fact, it's market segement has largely been replaced by games that compete in the MMO space, but really are not full fledged MMOs.. like BDO.

 

TL;DR: times change, and as such so do player tastes and studio focus to gather and retain a player base. There is no going back.

Edited April 23, 2017 by Andryah

[Soljin]

And they did that because the game was in a death spiral.

Be cause as had been said many times... the forum represents such a tiny portion of the total number of players.

If the outcry had really been so huge, subscription numbers wouldn't have been nosediving.

The game had lost 10% of its subscribers after 6 months.

That's a huge thing for an MMO.

WoW only made things worse for SOE in general because it hurt all their games across the board.

 

Did they go about trying to save SWG the wrong way?

Absolutely.

It'll be used as a case study for years to come about how not to save your game.

But the fact is that their game was failing and they had to do something to save it.

The CU didn't do it.

 

I got a chance to look at a summary of the original CU docs (and may even still have them somewhere) and what we got was not the original version of the CU.

But when that change didn't pay off, they had to neuter the game and make it something more appealing to the masses because WoW was a thing and F2P wasn't a thing yet.

 

So nostalgic people may want to see the game through rose color glasses but what they often fail to comprehend is that rose color comes from the rapid bleeding of subscribers.

It doesn't matter how innovative a game may be, if it's not making any money, its business isn't sustainable.

 

SWTOR had an even larger dropoff in subscribers after a similar amount of time but 1) its total subscriber numbers at the time were easily 5x higher than SWG's so it had a little more breathing room 2) EA was in a better position to absorb the loss than SOE, and 3) F2P was a thing now.

 

I see a lot of opinion based off of speculation and potential documents. What I remember is that the myself and my fellow players were very happy with the game and then they changed to the CU...we were not as happy with the game but stayed, then the NGE we all left.

 

From what I have read so did a large portion of the player base in a short period of time. I also recall the NGE being referred to by some media as the biggest mistake in MMO history for quite a while...

 

 

SWG lost subs in the early days because they had balance issues and rather than balance they NERF hammered everything that people complained about...so some folks left yes...Poor management.

 

My thoughts on SWG are from my own and friends actual experiences....Not some SOE blokes opinion...They dropped the ball I could care less about their thoughts on what happened.

 

Until you dig out those documents we are two guys with different opinions...and clearly different memories of how the game changed and its impact on the population while we were playing.

 

SWG's failure can be completely laid on SOE and the awful management of the game...the game itself was amazing.

 

What server were you on?

Edited April 23, 2017 by Soljin

[Soljin]

 

If SWG launched today, it would fail and fail hard in today's market. There would be a niche for it, but a niche is all it would obtain. In fact, it's market segement has largely been replaced by games that compete in the MMO space, but really are not full fledged MMOs.. like BDO.

 

TL;DR: times change, and as such so do player tastes and studio focus to gather and retain a player base. There is no going back.

 

I think you have said this twice now...So now I will straight ask, Did you play SWG prior to the NGE? I think you might say yes...but I'm pretty confident you did not.

 

Everyone is trying to talk about models and marketing blah blah...WoW is why most MMOs on the market currently stink...People trying to mimic a basic game design that had massive content that no one wanted to put the effort in to produce on the clones...

 

Until the MMO market gets back to making deep and interesting games like SWG but managing them properly rather than destroying them for better monetization, MMOs will continue to suck.

 

You may not get it now...but eventually someone will figure it out.

 

And then all the followers will make clones and we will enter the next golden age of MMOs...

Edited April 24, 2017 by Soljin

[DreadtechSavant]

Love how this game is living longer than Star Wars Galaxies, going to be some angry vets around here replying to this.

 

Not all of us. Not sure what counts as vets but have been playing now for 4 years. So not here from day one. Still I think 4 years is long enough to count as a vet.

 

I still really like this game and my only experience of SWG was a few days I spent with friends as they all had accounts and tried to get me into it. Just was not for me and think this is a far better game.

[DreadtechSavant]

I think you have said this twice now...So now I will straight ask, Did you play SWG prior to the NGE? I think you might say yes...but I'm pretty confident you did not.

 

Everyone is trying to talk about models and marketing blah blah...WoW is why most MMOs on the market currently stink...People trying to mimic a basic game design that had massive content that no one wanted to put the effort in to produce on the clones...

 

Until the MMO market gets back to making deep and interesting games like SWG but managing them properly rather than destroying them for better monetization MMOs will continue to suck.

 

You may not get it now...but eventually someone will figure it out.

 

And then all the followers will make clones and we will be in the next golden age of MMOs...

 

A very typical post from you. Anyone not agree with you, they are to stupid, don't have a clue, or never played the game or whatever the subject happens to be. At least some of them were intelligent enough to walk away from the game (SWG) that they were no longer were interested in.

[Soljin]

A very typical post from you. Anyone not agree with you, they are to stupid, don't have a clue, or never played the game or whatever the subject happens to be. At least some of them were intelligent enough to walk away from the game (SWG) that they were no longer were interested in.

 

I never said any of that about anyone not to mention we have not established they did play SWG...

 

You seem to take issue with me and that is fine. Funny part is I actually respected your initial post because you said you had played SWG and simply did not enjoy it. Yet here we are...

Edited April 24, 2017 by Soljin

[DreadtechSavant]

I never said any of that about anyone not to mention we have not established they did play SWG...

 

You seem to take issue with me and that is fine. Funny part is I actually respected your initial post because you said you had played SWG and simply did not enjoy it. Yet here we are...

 

Ok lets go though your post line by line.

 

First I agree that it was not established that they did play SWG.

However. you did say...

"I think you have said this twice now...So now I will straight ask, Did you play SWG prior to the NGE? I think you might say yes...but I'm pretty confident you did not."

 

So basically you are saying he lies before he even answered? maybe not what you meant but that's how I read it.

 

Then ....

"Everyone is trying to talk about models and marketing blah blah...WoW is why most MMOs on the market currently stink...People trying to mimic a basic game design that had massive content that no one wanted to put the effort in to produce on the clones...

 

Until the MMO market gets back to making deep and interesting games like SWG but managing them properly rather than destroying them for better monetization, MMOs will continue to suck."

 

Ok don't have an issue with your opinion on the state of MMO's however it is your opinion. SWG's did not last WoW is still going. Now I have not played WoW and had very limited experience with SWG, enough to know is was not for me. Still clearly you enjoyed it and again no issue there. Still the game ended. Why? If it was such a deep and interesting game, why did so many walk away to such a degree that it became no longer viable to keep it going? Now I can not answer that myself has did not play it and only saw enough to know it was not for me. The last part hints that it was mismanaged towards the end? That however does not really say why?

 

The last part of your post . Then went on to say...

"You may not get it now...but eventually someone will figure it out."

 

So what is anyone going to take from that line? Well maybe it was just late and I read it the wrong way? I read to say that he was to stupid to understand it, but someone else will figure it out, just not him.

 

Ok As I said it was late and probably was overthinking it and it was probably not what you meant. Also was not in the best of moods from a different thread where yet again others think they have a right to say what happens to other players accounts.

So if I owe you an apology, sure don't mind doing so if I read your post wrong.

Edited April 24, 2017 by DreadtechSavant