SWTOR is less than a month old, wow is 7 years old. Why do people compare?

[Quaade]

It irks me a little bit that people are saying that WoW didn't introduce something new.

 

They introduced phasing into an MMO and I never really realised what an amazing tool for storytelling it is before I tried TOR.

 

TOR prides itself on the narrative aspect, however, I fail to feel involved when everything I do gets summed up as "then you did this for us and that for us and you're so awesome and heroic" and then I go out and nothing has changed, the mobs are still there, whatever I just removed is still there.

 

It rings hollow and it's a shame

 

I know the general feelings about WoW from the staunch supporters and what I have read here, so I ask for some leway and that you hear me out before dismantling my argument.

 

In WoW I go to Redridge Mountain, one of the first things I see when I come to town is a guy lying underneath a rock and some other people trying to get it away from him.

In the course of some quests I end up controlling an Ettin and throws the rock away. I'm shown this ingame and when i return after getting my reward, the rock is still gone and the NPC is now a questgiver and I feel awesome seeing that I made an impact on the world.

And from thereon and forwards the questline in the zone turns absolutely massive and insanely cool, no spoilers though.

 

In TOR as a trooper I was told there was a road and some bad guys on it with bombs that was going to blow a convoy up, so I went and removed them and came back, had my little cutscene where I told that the road was clear and the bombs had been removed.

At this point, still new to the game, I had expected the bombs and mobs to be gone and it was now a clear road, phasing, right?

Wrong, I blundered blindly into a pack of mobs the bombs at the road. I did not feel epic at that point, more like Sysifos who has just rolled the rock uphill only to watch it roll down again

 

I came to TOR with few expectations having tried it on a friend's pc while it was in beta, I knew it was heavily borrowing from WoW in a lot of regards, the cutscenes were kinda cool and other than that there wasn't really anything that struck me as different.

 

I'm still massively disappointed in how the story is told. If it was a movie it would had been demolished by critics and audience alike because it just tells you what you have done, never shows it. It's essentially one massive exposition.

And the few areas where you do something special, you can never visit again because the forcefield went from green to red.

 

Another example, on Tatooine, the bonus quests, it starts with a sandstorm and some dialogue where you can go out into the storm and get the last people in. A little part of me hoped that I'd get to go out into a raging sandstorm and look for people caugth in it.

What I got instead was a fade to black of my toon going, then him coming back, the storm in the background in the cutscene and saying "that was the last of them."

I felt robbed of a good story there

 

I got told I should like the game in order to enjoy it, I disagree with that, I should enjoy the game because I like it.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Quaade

[krookie]

No it isn't supposed to be designed with WoW's very limited unique features in mind. That short list of things is what makes WoW WoW and not EQ or DAoC.

 

Every game does not have to have a Dungeon Finder or an exclamation mark over the quest giver's head.

 

They didn't have them before and they don't have to have one now. If every game adds those features then they can't create new features that are better. If every game tries to be WoW then something unlike WoW that is better can't be created.

 

WoW's basic features are the same as every other game's, WoW's unique features separate it from other games. Copying those just makes it a clone that WoW kids will rage about.

 

So what exactly is it you want? A WoW clone? Why when you have WoW already?

 

They are not WoW features anymore. They are pretty much industry-wide at this point.

 

This game already is a WoW clone in almost every regard, albeit not a really good one in certain aspects. Hell, BioWare all but admitted to worshiping WoW, they may as well copy over the features that made WoW a better game.

Edited December 28, 2011 by krookie

[Sefrix]

I have read all the Wheel of Time books...

 

+1 for you sir.

[Zazzaro]

Man WoW was a train wreck at launch. Super long Ques, Constant server crashes, maintenance. WoW didn't even have battlegrounds implemented in the game when it launched. So I'm def willing to see what Bioware does between now and their first expansion.

[TheHauntingBard]

because it had 7 years to do research and development. A game released after it, should have an idea based on whats already done of what should be included an a next gen mmo.

 

As it stands, swtor is like WoW when it launched. Not how WoW is today. Which is the problem.

 

This pretty much, why invent the wheel again.

In fact why invent the wheel again and make it square.

 

Bioware had seven years to observe what worked in WOW and what not.

SWTOR is inspired by WOW and similar in many ways.

[YzenDanek]

You obviously expected this game to be something different. The game always was going to have a big focus on the storytelling and a LOT of us are enjoying or leveling experience, listening to conversations, knowing why we are doing what we are doing, making choices and in some cases seeing the consequences of the same.

 

Enjoy the leveling experience, if one doesn't do that in SWTOR, they won't enjoy the game too much.

 

And of course that's great; I'm not begrudging you that. I've enjoyed all the other Bioware titles (Black Isle and Obsidian too; there's a lot of incest between the three). This one feels pretty watered down compared to them in order to stretch that storytelling out into the timescale expected for an MMO leveling experience 1-50.

 

More importantly, none of those Bioware game features are designed to create an experience that stays engaging long after you've finished the story. And 95%+ of your time played in an MMO takes place after you hit max level.

 

So again, the concern is: does Bioware have the experience to turn that corner?

[Darnite]

It is only new because it has a different theme. It feels different to you, but it will likely wear off when you realize its just illusion. When in WoW did we block with lightsabers? You didn't (as far as I know I never played wow but sure they dont have lightsabers), but its just a simple animation. It is no different then "dodge" or "block" in any other game. It isn't new, it just a simple animation for the same thing.

 

The choice doesn't affect the story very much at all. You can take all the choices out and you will still have the same exact story pretty much. Hearing a few lines of dialogue isn't a good reason to create an alt to sit through the same story.

 

Sending companions is good, it is new, its great yes...but really..thats the only thing maybe new.

 

An illusion you say, a damn good one too. Cause I don't take damage when it happens, and it looks cool. Maybe I'm from a different age group then you, and my understanding of software development is different than yours, oh I have 10 years so far in the industry, so maybe you have more. I get how sprites work differently, and collision detection works. What BioWare did to detect that Lazer, or blade hitting another blade is cool.

 

Choices do change an outcome, I've seen it first hand. In the SW story you have a choice to let a kid live or die, if you let him live you go do something the will gain you more experience points, or you don't go do that other thing and you lose those experience points. Oh where in WoW do you have a choice again?

[YzenDanek]

An illusion you say, a damn good one too. Cause I don't take damage when it happens, and it looks cool. Maybe I'm from a different age group then you, and my understanding of software development is different than yours, oh I have 10 years so far in the industry, so maybe you have more. I get how sprites work differently, and collision detection works. What BioWare did to detect that Lazer, or blade hitting another blade is cool.

 

Choices do change an outcome, I've seen it first hand. In the SW story you have a choice to let a kid live or die, if you let him live you go do something the will gain you more experience points, or you don't go do that other thing and you lose those experience points. Oh where in WoW do you have a choice again?

 

You know that parrying has nothing to do with collision detection and is just a random dice roll like in every other MMO, yes?

[xRydisx]

An illusion you say, a damn good one too. Cause I don't take damage when it happens, and it looks cool. Maybe I'm from a different age group then you, and my understanding of software development is different than yours, oh I have 10 years so far in the industry, so maybe you have more. I get how sprites work differently, and collision detection works. What BioWare did to detect that Lazer, or blade hitting another blade is cool.

 

Choices do change an outcome, I've seen it first hand. In the SW story you have a choice to let a kid live or die, if you let him live you go do something the will gain you more experience points, or you don't go do that other thing and you lose those experience points. Oh where in WoW do you have a choice again?

 

Dodging a bullet or deflecting it, makes no matter. It missed you, you took no damage. The only difference between the two is a slight animation. It is the same thing at it's core. That novelty wears off quick.

 

It changed your reward a little bit. Did it actually change the story? Did this decision your make have any bearing on anything outside of what you just did? No one wants to rock/paper/scissors for a better reward. I never played WoW so I dont know.

Edited December 28, 2011 by xRydisx

[Drakinor]

People compare because they want SWTOR to be the best game it can be, and SWTOR is competing against 2011 WoW, not 2004 Wow.

 

because it had 7 years to do research and development. A game released after it, should have an idea based on whats already done of what should be included an a next gen mmo.

 

As it stands, swtor is like WoW when it launched. Not how WoW is today. Which is the problem.

 

Then why dont you two front them the development costs for all that extra stuff? Apparently you dont understand how this works, its a business, they are given a budget and have to make a call on what to use that money for. In this case what you see is what made it into the original budget, subscriptions and sales will add profit that will be added to the future budget minus the bottom line that will then be used to add on. This is EXACTLY what WoW did as well, they did what they could within their budgetary constraints and the altered and added as profits refilled the pool.

 

If you havent figured it out yet, development isnt free. There are salaries which arent cheap, equipment that isnt cheap, utilities and lot fees that arent cheap, so therefore they cant just churn out everything your little heart desires on a whim because you want it. If you cannot understand these basic concepts then thats your problem. This is coming from a guy with almost no business experience, criminal justice is more my forte. It isnt hard to see this unless you let your petty issues blind you. Some of us can see whats going on and see the potential. And if you think WoW is better, fine go play it, that is your prerogative.

[Reecelol]

Then why dont you two front them the development costs for all that extra stuff? .

 

maybe they could have taken a few dollars out of their voice acting budget of making everyone sound british and spent a few more dollars on that instead?

[Bibdy]

wait? Voice acting is whats preventing quest-hub to quest-hub grind? It doesn't matter if Im reading the text or its being spoken to me, what follows is exactly the same.

 

Sure, but it doesn't feel like a grind when you get involved in the story. The story gives your character, and you, motivation. But, if you're unable to look at the game as anything other than "WoW with voice acting" then I feel sorry that you aren't experiencing a great and enjoyable portion of the game. Let alone when you start doing it with friends.

[TheHauntingBard]

Could have ignored space combat and released the game with high res textures, proper UI,AA,combatlog and less bugs.

Would have settled for that.

Edited December 28, 2011 by TheHauntingBard

[Darnite]

You know that parrying has nothing to do with collision detection and is just a random dice roll like in every other MMO, yes?

 

Yes I get that, but when the swords/sabers collide you think that there was no collision detection involved? Maybe you're a BioWare developer and you know better then the rest of us? There is an axis that all items move on, and you can reference that axis in computer code to detect a collision, and that can coincide with a dice roll as you call (I call it RNG) it to parry the attack that was coming at you. Pretty damn awesome in my opinion, whether it's smoke and mirrors or not.

[DaEzz]

Not understanding how things work? You should compare SWTOR to WoW because WoW is the COMPETITOR!! If you want customers you need to be better than your COMPETITOR!!!

 

This is well put, and as much as I like the single player aspect of the game with voice acting and all that its painfully obvious that this game lacks so much in simple functionality and common sense from Bioware that it saddens me, because I want it to be successfull.

 

I frankly cant understand how BW can fail to make better use of the wealth of experience and insight they - as we all- have gathered from the other MMO´s during the 6 years this game has been developed.

 

I played EQ2 from release back in 2005 or so, it had a similar UI and ability system que but you could resize and move the UI and the ability queing system was great and functional - from the start.

 

I played EvE, and the Galactic Market system is probably the best AH system there is. Not to mention the (somewhat ironical) fact that it probably displays the best and most detailed physical character creation tool there has ever been in any MMO.

 

I played WoW (ofc) and if anything, the Guild management and functionality is a Guild Officers dream. Its top notch.

 

Its not hard to see why LOTRO holds its own still either. The lore, game balance the great, mature and helpful community will secure them a nice cut of the MMO market for more years to come I am sure.

 

I would have hoped that something of the above would have caught the eyes of the BW devs, but instead, after 6 years of development we have....well, we know that already.

 

I am beginning to suspect that after a time, possibly a couple of years ago, Bioware simply gave up.

 

They went from trying to create a truly epic MMORPG to go like: "Hey, the voice acting, music and quest lines are what we put the most money in already, so keep them and just throw in a very basic UI, a rudimentary AH and the other must haves to be able to call this an MMO at all. Then we sell it and make the money on hardcopies instead of relying on subscriptions".

 

I am sad because I wanted a game, an MMO, free of the plague that is the WoW "community". But I will have to bite the bullet. Bioware could not live up to the challenge it seems. And thats really too bad.

Edited December 28, 2011 by DaEzz

[YzenDanek]

Then why dont you two front them the development costs for all that extra stuff? Apparently you dont understand how this works, its a business, they are given a budget and have to make a call on what to use that money for. In this case what you see is what made it into the original budget, subscriptions and sales will add profit that will be added to the future budget minus the bottom line that will then be used to add on. This is EXACTLY what WoW did as well, they did what they could within their budgetary constraints and the altered and added as profits refilled the pool.

 

If you havent figured it out yet, development isnt free. There are salaries which arent cheap, equipment that isnt cheap, utilities and lot fees that arent cheap, so therefore they cant just churn out everything your little heart desires on a whim because you want it. If you cannot understand these basic concepts then thats your problem. This is coming from a guy with almost no business experience, criminal justice is more my forte. It isnt hard to see this unless you let your petty issues blind you. Some of us can see whats going on and see the potential. And if you think WoW is better, fine go play it, that is your prerogative.

 

I don't think you're being any less naive of the way business work than you're foisting onto these two posters here when you disagree with paying customers reporting that a product they paid top dollar for didn't meet their full expectations upon getting it home and getting good look under the hood.

 

From a budget perspective, this game was given the largest budget in MMO history. Some people expected that would translate into a game that felt like the most MMO they'd ever gotten at release. Many people don't feel that way. I for one wish they'd spent more on the MMO part, and am voicing that here. That doesn't make me ignorant of how development works, nor does it make me objectively right. It's a forum for discussion.

[goobinator]

I just hope they all unsubscribe soon so we don't have to listen to them =/ If ya don't like it don't play we don't care to hear your moaning about how you wish it was better... trust me...

[Ambrogino]

To the OP, I would love to help you but I've heard this comment made several times in the forums and its always funny.

 

Let me put this to you in terms you may understand, would you buy a brand new Mercedes and put a tape deck in there? How about an 8-track? No, why not?

 

Is it because that tchnology is outdated?

 

That's why the comparison exists, Wow and many other games have worked through the problems associated with upgrading various aspects of their MMO's to provide a better experience that, you, the consumer may want. Basically, any new technology builds on the foundation of older ones.

 

If that's too much to ask for you could always turn in your cell phone, use a landline, send mail instead of email and watch local TV for entertainment.

[Ronisman]

I know this will be totally lost in this thread, but here's the deal:

 

People can compare SWTOR with WOW because they exist at the same time, and it isn't wrong to expect features at the same level.

 

Imagine a new car company releases their first model. It has no seatbelts. No one in their right mind is going to say "Oh give them a break; that other car company has had 15 years to come up with seatbelts".

 

If there is a good/desired functionality that exists in any mmo today, there is no reason SWTOR could not have been released with such functionality.

 

They need to be adding features that other mmo's don't have ON TOP OF features that they already do have. I do not see a reason they need to be playing catch up in any regard.

 

That is why you can compare any mmo on the market with SWTOR right now.

[Reecelol]

I just hope they all unsubscribe soon so we don't have to listen to them =/ If ya don't like it don't play we don't care to hear your moaning about how you wish it was better... trust me...

 

sorry, sometimes people who spend $ on a product only to find out its not as good of a product as theyd hoped for like to voice concerns/complain in hopes that theyll get some of what theyre looking for.

 

but its good that there are people who will take whatever theyre given and smile. world needs that.

[Engleheart]

People say wow has so many fetures and swtor is bad because it does not have them... wow has had 7 years to improve upon its self. Give Swtor a chance and time to put in the things your f***ing complaining about.... ¬.¬

 

WoW was not the first MMO nore was it original all WoW did was take the MMO template and improve upon it by removing things that were annoying (e.g crafting had a chance to fail) it did this with games Such as Ever Quest and so on.

 

SWTOR has done the same it has take the MMO TEMPLATE not copyed wow but taken the MMO TEMPLATE Which all MMO's use and removed useless stuff, ADDED its own stuff and improved upon existing stuff.

 

People need to remember WoW its self is a quoat un quoat "Clone" of the MMO's that came before it.

 

My final point. Who cares if it borrowed things from other games, it happens all the time in everything. just shut up, get on with the game and stop comparing it to WoW; an MMO thats long out lived its greatness WoW "died" along time ago and is just clinging onto life and dragging its self out to long. Its 7 gosh darn years old, its had its time at the top and has set a good standard for MMO's to go by and people should accept the fact its long out lived its awesomenes.

 

 

Because if they are to stupid to look at the mistake of other companies and their successes

then there clearly is a problem. It would be like if a bank today started to buy up Subprime mortagas after lehman brothers went belly up from doing. Or you seen someone get in a wreck from driving to fast and you decided to speed up.

[Ronisman]

I just noticed the post right above mine said basically the same thing at the same time lol.

[mastorofpuppetz]

Because the bugs and design flaws that are a huge problem right now where seen in Alpha and Beta and nothing was done. This had 10x WoW's budget. It had twice the development time. It also had "blueprints" to a successful MMO.

 

A bug seen a year ago in Alpha should not make it to live. And hundreds have.

 

Anything else?

 

An incredibly ignorant comment about game development, do you know how much game development cost have risen since wow? Exponentially, not even close to a fair comparison.

[peroxsigh]

because it had 7 years to do research and development. A game released after it, should have an idea based on whats already done of what should be included an a next gen mmo.

 

As it stands, swtor is like WoW when it launched. Not how WoW is today. Which is the problem.

 

You clearly known nothing about development.

[ChannelledAnger]

People say wow has so many fetures and swtor is bad because it does not have them... wow has had 7 years to improve upon its self. Give Swtor a chance and time to put in the things your ******* complaining about.... ¬.¬

 

WoW was not the first MMO nore was it original all WoW did was take the MMO template and improve upon it by removing things that were annoying (e.g crafting had a chance to fail) it did this with games Such as Ever Quest and so on.

 

SWTOR has done the same it has take the MMO TEMPLATE not copyed wow but taken the MMO TEMPLATE Which all MMO's use and removed useless stuff, ADDED its own stuff and improved upon existing stuff.

 

People need to remember WoW its self is a quoat un quoat "Clone" of the MMO's that came before it.

 

My final point. Who cares if it borrowed things from other games, it happens all the time in everything. just shut up, get on with the game and stop comparing it to WoW; an MMO thats long out lived its greatness WoW "died" along time ago and is just clinging onto life and dragging its self out to long. Its 7 gosh darn years old, its had its time at the top and has set a good standard for MMO's to go by and people should accept the fact its long out lived its awesomenes.

 

 

Thanks for making this thread I was goin to make the exact same topic thread

 

 

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