Galactic Command is going to break Guilds.

[Kawiki]

I suggest avoiding an argument with some people here. There are those who don't have open minds, they aren't here to debate a topic, only defend it and mock you - they tell you you're wrong, when in fact, you're not. You're exactly right.

 

Oh I know you are right but...

[Quraswren]

I think you're mistaking the crafted purple non mod-able gear with the fact you can craft Mods/Enhancements/Hilts/Barrels all with the same stats as 240 purples. You can also craft implants and ear pieces with "almost" the same stats as the 240 blues. (These are good enough for the time being.)

 

Not mistaking but knowing that as I get mats for 240, If I spend them on making the gear. I cannot then add in mods etc... to them or change out anything. OR I can make one mod and have nothing completed if I wasn't already stocked with 224 old gear. I doubt most are. Thats a problem with the system as it is and not so easy to get around for many. Sure, you can craft one complete item but then shaft yourself because you can't mod it out later if needed.

 

This is what most people are talking about when talking about crafted gear. For us raiders, this is what we've had to suffice with doing with the current situation. The armorings will still be from 4.0 until upgraded (minus one that you can substitute for a 240 armoring since you only need 6 pieces) but the rest of the gear can put you really close to what is needed for some of the harder content depending on skill level.

 

In other words a set of 6x 224 armorings with 240 mods/enhancements/barrels in each slot is still better than keeping all 224 equipment. The downside of this is that it's still expensive right now. This is because how highly it is currently sought after. Being that actually getting to tier 3 is such a grind, many players don't feel the need to do that especially with a new patch closing in.

 

If you watch on the fleet or on the GTN, you will see people sometimes selling crafted items for either straight credits, or materials + a fee for their time depending on what server you are on. This is sometimes a way to get things a little cheaper.

 

I just want to correct the misunderstanding it seems some of the people are having.

 

I get what you are saying, but the money and mats it would take is beyond most gamers in swtor can do. Doing both blue gear as a supplement and mods etc... for raiding gear as well as for so many slots is just beyond what most can do all the while knowing that your running those same OPS for so little.

 

Can it be done? Sure but I think it's a sugar coated endeavor as some down play how expensive it would be to actually do it.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Quraswren

[Vember]

I suggest avoiding an argument with some people here. There are those who don't have open minds, they aren't here to debate a topic, only defend it and mock you - they tell you you're wrong, when in fact, you're not. You're exactly right.

 

To be honest, his being right or wrong is a matter of opinion, one that Andryah obviously doesn't share. I agree with both of them on this point in some ways, but the fact stands that crafting right now is a viable way to get back into raiding that doesn't require GC gearing. Is it fun? That's up for debate.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Vember

[Vember]

Can it be done? Sure but I think it's a sugar coated endeavor as some down play how expensive it would be to actually do it.

 

And many exaggerate the cost and effort.

[Quraswren]

And many exaggerate the cost and effort.

 

Have you priced it recently? It's still in the millions of credits for just one mod. Price that out for 9 item slots of gear. Then enhancements if needed to boot.

 

It's expensive beyond what most can do.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Quraswren

[Kyuuu]

going to ? it already has

[DanNV]

It will break causal raiding guilds. Mostly because of the nature of them. Many in my guild hop on twice a week for the ops and not much else. They are stuck in the teens in galactic command rank and maybe someday will see more but not likely much. They are never likely to see 91 or 181 for the next level of gear. So running ops being a terrible way to get gxp means slow progress for them. Worse some arent super skilled its a social event for them so they need gear to do things more then other more hard core groups. So the idea of running HM which we used to do is very likely off the table. Running the same ops with no increase in challenge just is already starting to wear some of them out. They are frustrated that ops they have run for the past 2 or three years are now beyond them. Its not like new content it beyond them but stuff they have been doing for years is. That is breaking the spirit of many. And its all because of this just broken new gearing method.

 

My guild is in a similar boat. Some pretty hard core players, but mostly 40 something adults with families and jobs. They are one a couple nights a week for ops and not much any other time. Even when we had more raid teams (15 just prior to 4.0 dropping) it was only one really hard core team and they left for WoW months ago. We lost 11 qualifying accounts in the guild in less than week (96 to 85) and I know more are leaving (I am one of them.)

 

5.1 wont help. Its too little and too late. To make a real difference they need to remove any connection to galactic command and every boss needs to drop pieces. I don't think that change will happen, even if it does the devs are reacting so slowly to this mess it will happen too late for many. I've seen calls for them to fire Ben and I don't know who they need to move out of the way of removing rng but whomever it is they need to move them out of the way and get rid of rng sooner rather then later.

 

Ben is the lead producer. It's his responsibility. BW isn't known for moving fast, but they really need to this time. The player base is too small to just do tiny changes and hope people will forget they are angry. Go watch some of the videos from the 20112 guild summit. There are things there they promised and never delivered and things there they finally did, but it took years. There are also things there they were getting rid of that they've brought back, in a bigger way. (RNG gearing being a big one.) There's nothing like not learning from your own mistakes. (Ben was an employee at BW for the game's launch.)

 

I just paid for 6 months in another game. It's going to take BW a lot of work to bring people like me back, ones who have subbed since launch and now have started paying someone else for our entertainment.

[Andryah]

I think you're mistaking the crafted purple non mod-able gear with the fact you can craft Mods/Enhancements/Hilts/Barrels all with the same stats as 240 purples. You can also craft implants and ear pieces with "almost" the same stats as the 240 blues. (These are good enough for the time being.)

 

This is what most people are talking about when talking about crafted gear. For us raiders, this is what we've had to suffice with doing with the current situation. The armorings will still be from 4.0 until upgraded (minus one that you can substitute for a 240 armoring since you only need 6 pieces) but the rest of the gear can put you really close to what is needed for some of the harder content depending on skill level.

 

In other words a set of 6x 224 armorings with 240 mods/enhancements/barrels in each slot is still better than keeping all 224 equipment. The downside of this is that it's still expensive right now. This is because how highly it is currently sought after. Being that actually getting to tier 3 is such a grind, many players don't feel the need to do that especially with a new patch closing in.

 

If you watch on the fleet or on the GTN, you will see people sometimes selling crafted items for either straight credits, or materials + a fee for their time depending on what server you are on. This is sometimes a way to get things a little cheaper.

 

I just want to correct the misunderstanding it seems some of the people are having.

 

Exactly.

 

For mains for guild group activities like OPs... we went with mods that players could put in shells of their choosing, since it give them better secondary stat optimization ability and key members needed to retain old set bonus armor mods from 4.0 until something better comes along.

 

For alts.. we simply rolled out fixed 228s... with the understanding that any alt that enters a group role in guild could get mods later if they choose.

 

Beyond 228s though... we are sticking with mods that players can put in shells as that offers members the most flexibility.

[_Shaddai_]

And many exaggerate the cost and effort.

 

The cost is not really exaggerated. It is quite expensive. It quite literally is (on my server at least) 4.5m per mod or enhancement if the crafter doesn't charge a fee.

 

Meaning to get a full set it would cost you 40.5m Credits for mods, 31.5m Credits for enhancements, 9m for mh/oh, and an additional 4.5m if you replace one of your 7 piece set with a 240 non-set bonus armoring. This also doesn't include left side. (Even though left side is considerably cheaper being that no Void Matters are required.)

 

Now if you can't find a crafter, imagine spending 7-10m each item on the GTN. It does get quite expensive. For raiders, we're able to farm most of the materials required (and in the process get the schematics like we were doing early in 5.0) to get everybody to where they need to be. Since Void Matters drop frequently, it isn't that bad provided you have some direction your team(s) is/are going. Though plowing through a bunch of SM Ops for materials does get old really fast.

 

The alternative is to farm the Istotopes (spelled intentionally the way it's spelled in game) by doing flashpoints (more specifically Black Talon) so it cuts some of the cost down but just requires a bit of self farming. You can also use this to generate revenue by selling excess Istotopes to help mitigate the costs required.

 

The main point of this is, the cost is not exaggerated. It is quite expensive to do it. But that's the price to pay (pun intended) if you want to raid in 5.0 without having to wait for them to fix their mistake.

[DanNV]

IF a guild insists that the only way to progress their gear is through GC leveling... then yeah.. said guilds are going to go belly up. But that approach is a fallacy, self-inflicted by years of habit ingrained into rigid thinking. If anything, the crafting capabilities in 5.0 will save casual raiding guilds from grinding gear via GC. But a guild need to look at their challenges objectively rather then following obvious carrot tactics.

 

Play smarter, not harder. Besides.. there is no actual progression raiding in any serious manner in this game anymore.... which largely undercuts old thinking about how to go about gear.

 

Crafted gear has sub-optimal stats and isn't on par with drops above 230. Not to mention you need to either run ops or hope for more luck with GC to get schematics. Why bother? The entire system is totally FUBAR.

 

I agree that 5.1 as presented will not help fix GC. It is simply a red herring tossed out by the studio.. and some people are gobbling it up and fueling their hopes with it. Which will result in a second round of mass raging in the forum... this time over 5.1 changes.

 

GC needs to be fixed, not removed. They rolled it out broken .. now they have to fix it. It's not a bad concept at all, it was simply badly deployed with no safeguards for bad luck, no fairness in how Cxp is earned across content types, a leveling slope that is much much steeper then they said it would be, and no legacy mechanics. All of this can be fixed.... they just have to go do it. The question is.. will they? Or will they keep putting band aids on it and hope players will fall for it? meanwhile.... smart raid teams have found other ways then following an endless random carrot.

 

GC needs to be removed as the end-game gearing method. If thy want to keep it around as a way to drop goodies outside end=game gearing, sure, why not. But as the end-game gearing method it's garbage and you can't fix it. RNG is not the way to do endgame gear and it's so hated now, just "fixing" it isn't going to bring people back.

[Andryah]

If you have the resources (read: people) to accomplish it, that's the way to go. Doesn't work so hot for smaller teams.

 

Well the nice thing is resources scale well with need in the crafted category.

 

The harder hurdle would be for a small guild with no established crafting skills. Because trying to build them from scratch is no small task.. even as easy as it is in this game. If this is the case... finding and working with independent crafters is a better approach... but that does not solve the materials issue early in release....... as the real cost benefit for a guild is being completely self-sufficient with materials. This is why we as a guild have always incentivized our members to keep their tradecrafts current in each expac.. even if we see only limited practical value in a given expac. Because you never know what direction an MMO is going to take in the future.

 

That said.. other then augment slots and augments.... crafted item pricing is dropping really fast this expac.. which indicates a lot of players have re-embraced crafting in 5.0.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Andryah

[Andryah]

Crafted gear has sub-optimal stats and isn't on par with drops above 230. Not to mention you need to either run ops or hope for more luck with GC to get schematics. Why bother? The entire system is totally FUBAR.

 

Not true.. unless you work only with crafted gear that cannot be modded. But even then.. in many cases, you can pick fixed stat gear with the right secondary stats and fill in your gaps with the augment slots. The smart move for a guild is to farm OPs for recipe drops for mods that can be crafted and go into shells for anything beyond 230.

 

The real disappointment in my view with 5.0 gear is that 230 gear (unless it has a meaningful set bonus) is really no better then what you can achieve with selected crafted gear. I guess... this is to give a non-crafted access path for first tier gear for 5.0

[_Shaddai_]

Crafted gear has sub-optimal stats and isn't on par with drops above 230. Not to mention you need to either run ops or hope for more luck with GC to get schematics. Why bother? The entire system is totally FUBAR.

 

I'm going to correct this statement as it is incorrect. The mods and enhancements (and barrels/hilts/armorings) are all exactly the same stats you would get if you pulled a purple set piece in tier 3. (The only difference in there as that you don't get set bonus with the armoring, but it's good for the offhand if you use one as well as replacing your 7th piece since you don't need 7.)

[Quraswren]

The cost is not really exaggerated. It is quite expensive. It quite literally is (on my server at least) 4.5m per mod or enhancement if the crafter doesn't charge a fee.

 

Meaning to get a full set it would cost you 40.5m Credits for mods, 31.5m Credits for enhancements, 9m for mh/oh, and an additional 4.5m if you replace one of your 7 piece set with a 240 non-set bonus armoring. This also doesn't include left side. (Even though left side is considerably cheaper being that no Void Matters are required.)

 

Now if you can't find a crafter, imagine spending 7-10m each item on the GTN. It does get quite expensive. For raiders, we're able to farm most of the materials required (and in the process get the schematics like we were doing early in 5.0) to get everybody to where they need to be. Since Void Matters drop frequently, it isn't that bad provided you have some direction your team(s) is/are going. Though plowing through a bunch of SM Ops for materials does get old really fast.

 

The alternative is to farm the Istotopes (spelled intentionally the way it's spelled in game) by doing flashpoints (more specifically Black Talon) so it cuts some of the cost down but just requires a bit of self farming. You can also use this to generate revenue by selling excess Istotopes to help mitigate the costs required.

 

The main point of this is, the cost is not exaggerated. It is quite expensive to do it. But that's the price to pay (pun intended) if you want to raid in 5.0 without having to wait for them to fix their mistake.

 

Exactly.

 

It's easy to type, "Oh just buy them" as if that was easy. It's vastly out of the price range more most. It is the price you will pay if you want to get back to the OPS you were doing before 5.0 but like you said, what we are dealing with is a mistake and we can only hope BW fixes it sooner than later and 5.1 being the half arse step in the right direction isn't cutting it.

[DanNV]

The smart move for a guild is to farm OPs for recipe drops for mods that can be crafted and go into shells for anything beyond 230.

 

No, actually the smart move is to go pay someone else for actual entertainment. I have a job. I don't need one in the game, too. The new system isn't fun, so I'm not paying for it. Based on 3 unscheduled live streams and a survey since 5.0 dropped, I'd say I am not even remotely alone in that opinion.

[Threjyan]

 

I just paid for 6 months in another game. It's going to take BW a lot of work to bring people like me back, ones who have subbed since launch and now have started paying someone else for our entertainment.

 

which game can i ask?

 

i have an emptyness in my heart, and im trying to fill that void with a new game, and i was looking something entertaining, but mostly of the mmos are not what i am looking for..i needed a raiding game except wow.

[TUXs]

No, actually the smart move is to go pay someone else for actual entertainment. I have a job. I don't need one in the game, too. The new system isn't fun, so I'm not paying for it. Based on 3 unscheduled live streams and a survey since 5.0 dropped, I'd say I am not even remotely alone in that opinion.

BINGO!!! That is all that needs to be said imo. The new system sucks for all imo.

[TUXs]

To be honest, his being right or wrong is a matter of opinion, one that Andryah obviously doesn't share. I agree with both of them on this point in some ways, but the fact stands that crafting right now is a viable way to get back into raiding that doesn't require GC gearing. Is it fun? That's up for debate.

Yes...HIS opinion. MY opinion. Customer opinions. Our opinions actually DO matter. There will always be someone claiming something is fun online, but the reality is, this new system has seriously harmed the game...indicating, to me at least, that most people didn't like 5.0...and the only real thing to change with 5.0 was how gearing was handled. You're free to debate how much fun the new system is, but the numbers speak for themselves.

[Sargrith]

The problem is rng is a broken system. Getting around it is one thing but that doesn't really fix anything it just bypasses it. And that only works for some people. The game has trained for years a very different way of thinking, people are resistant to change and wont just because the devs say so. They will stick around hoping the game becomes the game they have been playing for a while then decide it isn't the game they want to play and leave.

 

Only removing what has failed us will get us started in the right direction. Arguing that they wont remove it is simply saying they really wont listen, they don't care about the player base, and they are liars. That means your view of the devs is as bad or worse then mine. I'm not sure what to say about that idea but it does make me chuckle a little.

[menofhorror]

No it's not because it's Star Wars so you will keep playing.

[Vember]

Yes...HIS opinion. MY opinion. Customer opinions. Our opinions actually DO matter. There will always be someone claiming something is fun online, but the reality is, this new system has seriously harmed the game...indicating, to me at least, that most people didn't like 5.0...and the only real thing to change with 5.0 was how gearing was handled. You're free to debate how much fun the new system is, but the numbers speak for themselves.

 

I just don't see it, what can I tell you. I can only speak from the perspective of the server that I play on and the activities of the guild I'm in, but both are booming, and we're over a month out from 5.0 launch. I do see the occasional complaint in general and guild chat, but it doesn't seem to be the consensus.

 

At any rate, I'd wait until 5.1 before I get too antsy.

[Andryah]

Just wait till he hits ESO's endgame

 

LOL.. indeed. If he even gets that far.

[Ryenke]

SM Ops are gonna be more popular come 5.1.

 

Alts aren't dead, it's advantageous to have multiple chars at T3 for daily/weekly rewards and it's easy to gear both your alts and your friend's mains once you've obtained schematics and assembly tokens on your main.

 

LOL, you funny

[Andryah]

The problem is rng is a broken system. Getting around it is one thing but that doesn't really fix anything it just bypasses it.

 

No disagreement. I have been clear and consistent on this, as well as offering reasonable suggestions for how to fix it without throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

The game has trained for years a very different way of thinking, people are resistant to change and wont just because the devs say so. They will stick around hoping the game becomes the game they have been playing for a while then decide it isn't the game they want to play and leave.

 

MMOs in general have done so in recent years... but in the history of MMOs.. it's literally been all over the map over time, including at extreme ends of the spectrum.

 

A lot of people though operate as sheeple and simply want to hit the most obvious feed bag put in front of them, without thinking ---> is it good for me?, will it achieve my objectives?, do I actually have other choices? etc.

 

I've played MMOs for a lot of years, and I have seen every possible variation and cycling of how gear is obtained. And from those years.. I have learned not to be a mindless animal looking for my feedbag. Fact is.. MMO studios are constantly tinkering with end game gear acquisition pathways. This goes all the way back to the early days of DAoC.. where the only way to get top end gear was to assemble in 100 man raids for the epic dungeons and hope for a lucky roll on one of the 20 or so items that dropped. Rinse and repeat each week over and over again. Then later on, they added crafting of gear to the game and everyone immediately began crafting gear and stat gems to go into said gear and we only looked at the epic raid gear for the looks or bragging rights it gave.

 

People turning their noses up at using crafted gear to help them progress to be able to play the content they want to play... are their own worst enemies.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Andryah