Ops in 5.1 - Will unassembled pieces drop from every boss, or just the last boss?

[lokimogor]

There are different groups of people playing this game. No one with common sense would say doom this or that.

Those who have taken big breaks from this game can enjoy doing those story missions and few new FP's. No no opses past 2 years so nothing new on this part.

If returning players are happy to pay subscription for most part solo and story gameplay then they are welcome to do so. Those who have played this game since launch and wanted to endgame or even new bigger group content didnt get this. Instead they got random gearing even at endgame if they would want to try hardest modes again.

 

Are the new returning players big spenders also buying CM stuff? I doubt that. But if players are happy with current gearing and runnig same content over and over again then Biwoare has doen excellent job rendering old graphics engine and content with just new gear rating and rng. Smart business man is not that who invests a lot for new stuff but that man who recycles old things to make more profit than investing more into new stuff.

 

Weird how you seem to think you speak for those who have played the game since launch. You speak only for a minority that doesn't like change. But then again I'm going to stop wasting time with forum dwellers, too toxic for my taste

[Divona]

Weird how you seem to think you speak for those who have played the game since launch. You speak only for a minority that doesn't like change. But then again I'm going to stop wasting time with forum dwellers, too toxic for my taste

 

I didnt say i speak for everyone. It is you who make it look like i speak about some small group. Look around forum or check ingame chat. Maybe you notice there are more different thinking players than just you or me. Not going to bother mention reddit or fanpages and their comments.

 

Enjoy the forum freedom i guess what we all paying for...

[TUXs]

Harbinger and I'm not giving out my guild info here. Seems bit pervy of you. The fact is the forum dwellers those who post routinely are the most negative of a games population.

Pervy? By asking for you to offer up some form of proof to your claim? I don't think "perv" means what you think it means.

 

But judging by your name calling and insults, I assume you're not being truthful to begin with.

[Exly]

Hey folks,

 

There is some good conversation going on in this thread but I thought I would pop in and explain how it is currently planned to work in 5.1. The last boss of each Operation is guaranteed to drop unassembled pieces of a specific slot (we are still working out how many pieces drop). Each other boss in an Operation has an increasing chance (by boss) to drop any unassembled piece, not a specific slot. For the sake of the example I am about to make, I will use Karagga's Palace.

 

Everything listed below is an example and not necessarily what will be in-game, these are just representative of the way the system will work.

 

1st boss (Bonethrasher) - 20% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

2nd boss (Jarg and Sorno) - 25% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

3rd boss (Foreman Crusher) - 30% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

4th boss (Fabricator) - 35% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

Final boss (Karagga) - 100% chance to drop unassembled head piece.

 

Hopefully that clears up any confusion!

 

-eric

 

So what you are really saying is that only the last boss will drop something, and the other bosses might occasionally drop something, but we really shouldn't expect anything from them.

[Khevar]

But then again I'm going to stop wasting time with forum dwellers, too toxic for my taste

1. Come to the forums.

2. Be antagonistic towards others.

3. Call someone pervy.

4. Engage in other insults.

5. Claim the forum is "too toxic"

 

This is called "hypocrisy"

Edited December 21, 2016 by Khevar

[Jamtas]

Hey folks,

 

There is some good conversation going on in this thread but I thought I would pop in and explain how it is currently planned to work in 5.1. The last boss of each Operation is guaranteed to drop unassembled pieces of a specific slot (we are still working out how many pieces drop). Each other boss in an Operation has an increasing chance (by boss) to drop any unassembled piece, not a specific slot. For the sake of the example I am about to make, I will use Karagga's Palace.

 

Everything listed below is an example and not necessarily what will be in-game, these are just representative of the way the system will work.

 

1st boss (Bonethrasher) - 20% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

2nd boss (Jarg and Sorno) - 25% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

3rd boss (Foreman Crusher) - 30% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

4th boss (Fabricator) - 35% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

Final boss (Karagga) - 100% chance to drop unassembled head piece.

 

Hopefully that clears up any confusion!

 

-eric

 

This must be the "listening" and humility we've been hearing about.

 

"we hate rng gearing for operations"

"ok, how about we implement a different RNG system with 1 guarantee for each operation?"

 

:|

[TUXs]

1. Come to the forums.

2. Be antagonistic towards others.

3. Call someone pervy.

4. Engage in other insults.

5. Claim the forum is "too toxic"

 

This is called "hypocrisy"

No kidding...is it really that hard to listen to differing opinions?

[dathomirwitch]

For all you doom sayers, please explain why my guild roster has exploded by 30+ subs. I'm not in a large guild, we don't want to be a large guild, but we've always recruited fun folks and theres a lot more of them out there. We are not seeing a decline in our guild at all, we've had folks come back from 2 year hiatuses. The general conclusion is folks seem to be angry about not being able to ravager glitch their way into full gear within 2 weeks

 

I call B U L L S H I T on this one. I won't believe that for one second. This is guaranteed a BW dev trying to troll this thread.

Edited December 21, 2016 by dathomirwitch

[Jamtas]

I call B U L L S H I T on this one. I won't believe that for one second. This is guaranteed a BW dev trying to troll this thread.

 

It's entirely possible. Reasons why can differ.

 

On the negative side, several guilds could have disbanded with players quitting and those remaining came and joined this guild

 

On positive side, there are some happy with current game, still have content to do and brand new that could have joined.

 

It could be an outlier or the norm. Based on dev response to recent criticism, my guess would be that this was an outlier or a result of the negative side above. It's just my opinion but I think that based on recent events and press that this is not an expansion being well received past an initial 1 month sub to get the story..

[TUXs]

It's entirely possible. Reasons why can differ.

 

On the negative side, several guilds could have disbanded with players quitting and those remaining came and joined this guild

 

On positive side, there are some happy with current game, still have content to do and brand new that could have joined.

 

It could be an outlier or the norm. Based on dev response to recent criticism, my guess would be that this was an outlier or a result of the negative side above. It's just my opinion but I think that based on recent events and press that this is not an expansion being well received past an initial 1 month sub to get the story..

Based on that posters reaction to simple questions, I think dathomirwitch is spot on. Nobody who is being honest reacts that way.

[TBDNicodemus]

Hey folks,

 

There is some good conversation going on in this thread but I thought I would pop in and explain how it is currently planned to work in 5.1. The last boss of each Operation is guaranteed to drop unassembled pieces of a specific slot (we are still working out how many pieces drop). Each other boss in an Operation has an increasing chance (by boss) to drop any unassembled piece, not a specific slot. For the sake of the example I am about to make, I will use Karagga's Palace.

 

Everything listed below is an example and not necessarily what will be in-game, these are just representative of the way the system will work.

 

1st boss (Bonethrasher) - 20% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

2nd boss (Jarg and Sorno) - 25% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

3rd boss (Foreman Crusher) - 30% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

4th boss (Fabricator) - 35% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

Final boss (Karagga) - 100% chance to drop unassembled head piece.

 

Hopefully that clears up any confusion!

 

-eric

 

why can't we do a chance to drop a schem and CXP for each boss but the last boss drops gets a 100% chance to drop a UA (same every time you run it) just like you mention but for every person in the group.... this allows for alt building up, allows for harder ops to get more coveted pieces, allows for no ninja, allows for op completion mattering, and generally increases your QoL.

[DragonTYR]

This is not in any form a solution or even enough for me to re-sub. This is just insanity by its very definition.

 

I can not even fathom how it is so hard to see the problem & the easiest solution. Are you guys that blind? The forums are full of simple solutions that can end this train wreck & still keep your precious little RNG command crates.

 

For Example:

1. No armor tokens. All BiS gear can be bought w/ command tokens that drop from every crate, bosses & weekly missions.

2. The RNG command crates should be a subscriber reward system. Not a punishment system. Drop things from old packs, deco's things that reward players.

3. CXP should be legacy wide. Just like our legacy points. All toons contribute & benefit from it.

 

My patience is just about exhausted with this train wreck. I have already un-subbed & once my sub runs out & this is not fixed, I will uninstall this train wreck & move on to another game. Plain and simple, I'm paying you for enjoyment (a.k.a a service). You are no longer providing said service. Therefore, I will fire you & hire another game to provide the service you can not.

[Tsillah]

Hey folks,

 

There is some good conversation going on in this thread but I thought I would pop in and explain how it is currently planned to work in 5.1. The last boss of each Operation is guaranteed to drop unassembled pieces of a specific slot (we are still working out how many pieces drop). Each other boss in an Operation has an increasing chance (by boss) to drop any unassembled piece, not a specific slot. For the sake of the example I am about to make, I will use Karagga's Palace.

 

Everything listed below is an example and not necessarily what will be in-game, these are just representative of the way the system will work.

 

1st boss (Bonethrasher) - 20% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

2nd boss (Jarg and Sorno) - 25% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

3rd boss (Foreman Crusher) - 30% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

4th boss (Fabricator) - 35% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

Final boss (Karagga) - 100% chance to drop unassembled head piece.

 

Hopefully that clears up any confusion!

 

-eric

 

It's good to see some actual numbers.

 

I know it's an example but let's fly with it and I can tell you that I think the percentages for boss 1-4 are not high enough in my opinion.

 

A short comparison.

 

In 4.0 all bosses dropped loot 100% from all 5 bosses. For a team of 8 that divideds loot as a guild or pugs with a 1 token (unassembled piece) max per person rule, which was standard on my server this leads to having an 5/8 chance of getting an unassembled piece. That's essentially a 62.5% chance.

 

In 5.1 we would have a different situation

With the drop chances as describe above the ops will on average drop 2.1 unassembled pieces which comes down to a chance of 26.25%. Now ok, you still get GC crates but I don't estimate the chances there are more than 4-5% per crate on average from what I've seen so far and assuming doing an operation drops you a crate each time (which I'm not sure it will especially in SM but maybe someone can comment on that), you'd be lucky to hit the 30% mark depending also on your luck with RNG. Overall though it looks like the gearing progression in 5.1 (which is an improvement over 5.0) is therefore cut in half.

 

On top of that there are the command tokens that need to be collected which is another factor that will also slow down the gearing process depending on how many tokens. This I cannot calculate into it yet but the more tokens you need the more it slows down the gearing process.

 

And of course priority ops have been removed. I am ok with that but it's also something that dramatically reduces the speed in gearing up. So for those who did priority operations regularly the gearing is slowed down a lot more, going down to a third by comparison

 

Now, I'd like to say that everyone who claimed that the point of GC was to make gear more available and not to slow down gear progression can now eat their words.

 

The improvement called 5.1 still easily cuts the gearing spead in half or worse depending on whether you count prio ops into it.

 

Now for my purposes the priority ops were too much. I agree with people who say that it was too easy to get such gear that way but more importantly the problem was that the 224 gear didn't drop instead of the 220 gear but on top of it.

 

So let's talk cutting the gearing process down by half compared to what would've been a more reasonable set up in 4.0 (without the prio).

 

It literally means that it will take at least twice as much time to gear up, but it is worst for pugs. The chance of actually walking away with something is much smaller now.

 

And then we haven't talked about the MK-2 gear that dropped in operations from bosses as well and the crystals you got for MK-4 gear.

 

So if in 4.0 I had 20 alts that I could gear up in 2 weeks per character. Then I needed 40 weeks to equip them all. With 5.1 this will take at least double that time so 80 weeks.

 

If the next expansion hits in december 2017 I will then get the unsatisfactory situation that my goals are not achievable. So why even start then because by then the gear will be obsolete.

 

So then I have to look for ways within the system to gear up more quickly. Well let's see...oh yeah, we kill the first 3 bosses so we have a lock on boss 4+5 and then we just do those two bosses with alts.

 

That will dramatically increase the chances but it will feel more grindy, but for efficiency's sake I would feel I needed to do that if I wanted to have a chance at keeping all my toons up-to-date.

 

Now people can argue that I don't need to gear up all those alts, but it's what I enjoyed the last two years because there was no new content for groups. Uprisings don't really help there. I find them ok but they got boring quickly and didn't feel very rewarding.

 

So I guess I should noob around in warzones for effort-free CXP and use boss locks to be efficient enough to gear my alts?

 

Perhaps you see why I am still hesitant about 5.1 and wonder if it really is going to be a big enough change. The real numbers will be rather important on that.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Tsillah

[DanNV]

My raid team is losing another member over this. He unsubbed yesterday and is gone in three weeks. Two of use run out in Feb. This "fix" isn't going to cut it if you want to keep us and the money we pay to sub.

[Sargrith]

why can't we do a chance to drop a schem and CXP for each boss but the last boss drops gets a 100% chance to drop a UA (same every time you run it) just like you mention but for every person in the group.... this allows for alt building up, allows for harder ops to get more coveted pieces, allows for no ninja, allows for op completion mattering, and generally increases your QoL.

 

If the final boss drops a piece for everyone....that will end badly fast. I like the idea of making sure everyone gets some guaranteed piece, I do. But think about what would happen. My guild and I run to the last boss and everyone but one switches to an alt, they all get the helm piece, and within hours we have a helm piece on all our alts and mains....too easy to farm it that way.

 

Again good try to be fair to everyone, and I do recognize that being a decent goal but well I think it would end poorly is all.

[Glzmo]

Hey folks,

 

There is some good conversation going on in this thread but I thought I would pop in and explain how it is currently planned to work in 5.1. The last boss of each Operation is guaranteed to drop unassembled pieces of a specific slot (we are still working out how many pieces drop). Each other boss in an Operation has an increasing chance (by boss) to drop any unassembled piece, not a specific slot. For the sake of the example I am about to make, I will use Karagga's Palace.

 

Everything listed below is an example and not necessarily what will be in-game, these are just representative of the way the system will work.

 

1st boss (Bonethrasher) - 20% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

2nd boss (Jarg and Sorno) - 25% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

3rd boss (Foreman Crusher) - 30% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

4th boss (Fabricator) - 35% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

Final boss (Karagga) - 100% chance to drop unassembled head piece.

 

Hopefully that clears up any confusion!

 

-eric

Will those drop for everyone in the group if they drop or just one piece that will have to be contested for? I'd hope everybody that participates would get the reward this time around so people don't quarrel around, especially in pickup groups.

[Soljin]

Well I have added my feedback which is Remove RnG completely from gearing.

 

It's pretty straight forward I have no tolerance for this system nor the half baked again RnG "remedy".

 

I was on my morning run where I do my clearest thinking and asked myself a simple question.

 

Do I feel the current game with the addition of the proposed changes in 5.1 is/will be an acceptable value in FUN for my subscription and moderate CM spending?

 

Answer is: Nope!

 

Subscription is cancelled and if they remove the RnG gearing and come up with some actual content for 2017 I will come back. Nice thing about this is I can come an go as I please...and take my support with me, just like that!

 

If they fail on those fronts or propose one more ridiculous RnG FIX I may just stop checking on this game all together.

 

I really love Star Wars...But this is not worth it for me any longer.

 

And I'm keeping my stuff...Just in case they manage to turn the game around.

 

I'm just another number...

Edited December 21, 2016 by Soljin

[TBDNicodemus]

If the final boss drops a piece for everyone....that will end badly fast. I like the idea of making sure everyone gets some guaranteed piece, I do. But think about what would happen. My guild and I run to the last boss and everyone but one switches to an alt, they all get the helm piece, and within hours we have a helm piece on all our alts and mains....too easy to farm it that way.

 

Again good try to be fair to everyone, and I do recognize that being a decent goal but well I think it would end poorly is all.

 

Please explain this, if there are 8 people in a room and they kill a final boss, the boss upon dying gives those people each a UA to loot from the boss not 8 ua but just like tactical gives a rng gear piece to be looted by that specific person. The op is then locked out for that character. Everyone got 1 thing the reason they ran that op, for instance we all ran story EV we all got 230 set wrist., we all ran TOS we got 230 Set chest. If I choose to run 8 Ev across 8 alts I get 8 wrists... or if I run 8 ev across 8 weeks my 8 toons would have 8 wrists. This seems fair to me.... what am I missing?

Edited December 21, 2016 by TBDNicodemus

[Sargrith]

Please explain this, if there are 8 people in a room and they kill a final boss, the boss upon dying gives those people each a UA to loot from the boss not 8 ua but just like tactical gives a rng gear piece to be looted by that specific person. The op is then locked out for that character. Everyone got 1 thing the reason they ran that op, for instance we all ran story EV we all got 230 set wrist., we all ran TOS we got 230 Set chest. If I choose to run 8 Ev across 8 alts I get 8 wrists... or if I run 8 ev across 8 weeks my 8 toons would have 8 wrists. This seems fair to me.... what am I missing?

 

Can do. Ok so we beat the council and are at Soa in EV. Everyone except my guy quits group and rejoins on a new character. Now this new group beats Soa and everyone gets a wrist as you say. Now one of the seven who quit before we beat Soa hopes on, his lockout starts with the council deafeated and only one boss left. We get on 7 other characters and beat Soa...and so on and so on till all seven people's lock outs are used....but that isn't even all of it. A person with the lockout starts the group, enters and so does all 7 new people. They start with the council beaten right, well the one with the lockout new quits and changes characters...now it actually 8 people none of whom deafened any of the boss but now all at the final boss Soa....

 

Does that make sense?

[RagnarAugustus]

Hey folks,

 

There is some good conversation going on in this thread but I thought I would pop in and explain how it is currently planned to work in 5.1. The last boss of each Operation is guaranteed to drop unassembled pieces of a specific slot (we are still working out how many pieces drop). Each other boss in an Operation has an increasing chance (by boss) to drop any unassembled piece, not a specific slot. For the sake of the example I am about to make, I will use Karagga's Palace.

 

Everything listed below is an example and not necessarily what will be in-game, these are just representative of the way the system will work.

 

1st boss (Bonethrasher) - 20% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

2nd boss (Jarg and Sorno) - 25% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

3rd boss (Foreman Crusher) - 30% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

4th boss (Fabricator) - 35% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

Final boss (Karagga) - 100% chance to drop unassembled head piece.

 

Hopefully that clears up any confusion!

 

-eric

 

Eric that is still unacceptable from a raider perspective. RNG kills any sort of gear planning to get an established progression raiding group back to raiding HM\NM progression Ops. It also harms raiding guilds because we can't gear alts in a normal time span since everything is left up to chance (in my entire Operations group only 2 people have had any set bonus drops since 5.0 implementation) nor can we gear off specs. How does this harm raiding guilds? When our other progression ops groups need to unexpectedly fill a slot in 4.0 and before we could roll out a fully geared alt and they could continue their progression without worry and without introducing the unknown PUG factor into the equation. Even with this new proposed system the most objectionable part of the entire 5.0 system - the RNG part, is still here preventing us from raiding anything other than our main.

 

The way to fix 5.0 from a raider perspective is to fully reestablish the 4.0 Operations loot system which has

1. Each boss has a known loot table

2. Every boss in an operation will drop one known slot (from the known loot table) unassembled armor token plus the new "cosmetic and vanity items exclusive to operations" that Bioware promised but has yet to deliver on.

3. No combining unassembled operations gear tokens with GC tokens, just have SM drop one tier, HM drop another tier, and NM drop the final tier like in 4.0

 

Anything short of that and SWTOR continue to hemorrhage raiders. Long time NM mode raiders in my guilds who have subbed for years straight have left due to the 5.0 loot system. I have no idea why anyone thought RNG was good for raiding but it's quite the opposite and has no place in SWTOR's system.

 

The express purpose of the 5.0 loot system change was not to make gearing more difficult, Bioware directly stated that it was to make it so non-end game players could get the best gear in the game without earning via raiding - it is making gearing easier for guys who don't need end game gear. That goal was accomplished but then completely killed raiding in the process when the established operations gear system was removed - and the new proposed system is almost as bad as the original 5.0 system. Just reestablish 4.0's Operations loot system and Bioware will have a sorely needed win in its category.

Edited December 21, 2016 by RagnarAugustus

[DarthVitrial]

So basically, your solution to people complaining that there is too much RNG is to add more RNG. Whoever created GC must just be physically incapable of admitting to being wrong...which would explain a lot about everything from SOR onward.

[benmas]

1st boss (Bonethrasher) - 20% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

2nd boss (Jarg and Sorno) - 25% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

3rd boss (Foreman Crusher) - 30% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

4th boss (Fabricator) - 35% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

Final boss (Karagga) - 100% chance to drop unassembled head piece.

 

 

 

more RNG just what we wanted!

what was the team smoking when you came up with command crates?

[Kurj]

This is truly depressing. It won't affect me directly because I PVP (although we have no idea what the conversion rate will be for components...), but I think this will drive more long-time players away from the game. It will do the same to new players, once they hit the post-70 GC grind with an RNG capper. What are they thinking?

[Sundragon]

They are never going to get rid of RNG gearing.

 

Please let that sink in.

 

Are you going to keep playing with RNG, or are you going to find another game? That's really all it boils down to at this point.

[Kurj]

They are never going to get rid of RNG gearing.

 

Please let that sink in.

 

Are you going to keep playing with RNG, or are you going to find another game? That's really all it boils down to at this point.

 

Maybe you're right, maybe you're not, but it makes perfect sense for dissatisfied customers to complain about what they don't like in an attempt to get it changed. It's a false dichotomy to say that the only options are to either accept it or leave.