.. and the award for Worst MMO Business Model in 2016 goes to ...

[Tsillah]

Sometimes it certainly seems that way and those live streams seem to come across as an inside joke to them, like they are laughing behind our backs or as we say in Australia, taking the piss.

 

For some reason Ben seems to like words like awesome and exciting a lot these days. Is he trying to convince himself I wonder?

 

I mean, when I hear him say such words, I don't believe him. Could be just me of course. Now, I will say that they did take the criticism and did something with it this time around. Whether or not you think their 5.1 solution will do the trick, they did at least address all the critical issues that were identified.

 

From my point of view, these critical issues were already identified well before 5.0 was released and it's their dismissive attittude (saying they were flexible to adapt but being ever so confident that it would be fine) in spite of some clear arguments of why it would be problematic that really is regrettable.

 

The thing is that with such a big change, putting it on a closed test server and then not being forthcoming with information about it, really set things up for what happened. Then when they start admitting to the not so nice parts of it, concerns grew and they just said it should be fine. I cannot reallly qualify what sort of person would think this system would be lauded as the new messiah for SWTOR, but I for one am not surprised that it backfired as much as it did. Prevention is the best medicine as they say and now they have to hope that the cure isn't worse than the disease. A bit cliché but it seems approppriate.

[TrixxieTriss]

For some reason Ben seems to like words like awesome and exciting a lot these days. Is he trying to convince himself I wonder?

 

I mean, when I hear him say such words, I don't believe him. Could be just me of course. Now, I will say that they did take the criticism and did something with it this time around. Whether or not you think their 5.1 solution will do the trick, they did at least address all the critical issues that were identified.

 

From my point of view, these critical issues were already identified well before 5.0 was released and it's their dismissive attittude (saying they were flexible to adapt but being ever so confident that it would be fine) in spite of some clear arguments of why it would be problematic that really is regrettable.

 

The thing is that with such a big change, putting it on a closed test server and then not being forthcoming with information about it, really set things up for what happened. Then when they start admitting to the not so nice parts of it, concerns grew and they just said it should be fine. I cannot reallly qualify what sort of person would think this system would be lauded as the new messiah for SWTOR, but I for one am not surprised that it backfired as much as it did. Prevention is the best medicine as they say and now they have to hope that the cure isn't worse than the disease. A bit cliché but it seems approppriate.

 

When ever I see those guys in a live stream it feels like they are laughing at a joke, but we don't know the punch line.

 

I've stopped watching them, I just want to throw stuff at the screen when I see them being disingenuous.

[Soljin]

Seeing that landslide of a vote tally is pretty sad...

 

SWToR is the undisputed winner there...

 

I'm not sure what they are thinking...This game has always had the potential to be top tier but they just can't find the proper approach...

 

Designing games with the wrong intentions makes for a mediocre or awful game. It has to be made with the players fun as number one priority and the money will come....

 

They seem to make design choices based on profit potential and ease of maintenance, fun game play is way down there next to QC and sweeping the office floor or cleaning the office toilet.....

Edited December 19, 2016 by Soljin

[ShardODarkness]

Afaik it breaks no rules so not sure why that would happen. This is the sort of thing they should be taking notice of and realize it's not really a vocal minority that are really unhappy with the direction this game is going in but a true majority and even possibly people outside of the game looking in to how it's managed can realize how bad things are getting.

 

Didn't you know that the industry is a vocal minority? #sarcasmoff

 

[LordArtemis]

Well, regardless of my original first post in this thread, I do think they need to remove the restrictions in the game up to level 50....the entire game to level 50 should be free IMO.

 

I don't think that money restrictions are bad...in fact I would keep that in place to generate regular income, but I would raise the cap and sell extended caps in groups.

 

I would make all secondary parts of the game and the expansions pay only to unlock...for those that are not subbed of course.

 

I think that would be a far less draconian system than what is in place now.

[PlasmaJohn]

Knowing how held back this game is b/c of the engine, I can see everyone who is a developer just wanting out. Why spend your career making something that you can't do properly b/c of the restrictions?

I keep seeing the engine get a lot of hate yet Austin still has the capability to introduce new features. Lack of innovation is not what's hampering SW:TOR. In fact they're got a really bad innovation addiction which they really need to reign in so that they can get back to developing content and fixes for all of the neglected modes.

[Jamtas]

I keep seeing the engine get a lot of hate yet Austin still has the capability to introduce new features. Lack of innovation is not what's hampering SW:TOR. In fact they're got a really bad innovation addiction which they really need to reign in so that they can get back to developing content and fixes for all of the neglected modes.

 

i think the "innovation desires" they keep showing are a result of having to work around the engine. If we can't make aspects up to par b/c of it, what new thing can we introduce to draw away attention?

 

But I agree with you. They seem to want to keep trying to be the first to pioneer some new model (monthly chapter release) rather than just go with the fact that they have one of the most desired IPs on the planet and use that single premise. Being SW is really enough for a ton of people. Just don't make it SW and not fun. Be clone wars and rebels, not "droids"

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Good news, so I got an incredibly positive response from Eric about why this topic was moved after contacting community support:

 

You are correct, this had no reason to be moved to off-topic. The only threads that we move into off-topic are threads that are off-topic (obviously) and threads about cancelling subscriptions. I will move it back into General Discussion and make sure the moderation team is aware. Thanks.

 

Not moved yet but glad to see Eric is on top of this and indeed threads like this shouldn't really be getting moved.

 

Thanks in advance Eric when you do move this back.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

First of all, I think it's logical to assume that when someone says the game ''wasn't making money'', that their meaning is along the lines of ''not profitable enough'', or; ''would not have been worth keeping open''.

By saying that the game is ''on its way out'' you suggest that the game is going to close. I doubt EA would shut something down if it's profitable enough to keep open (unless there are motives that we cannot ascertain), therefore by extension, it's reasonable to assume that you are implying that it is not profitable enough to keep open or, that it ''wasn't making money''.

 

So, the question is; would EA have kept the game open had it remained in its previous state - or was it just a push for reaching the profits that they had previously projected?

 

I don't care about the answer. The point is that taking things literally to a fault is pointless, and doesn't mean you can accuse someone of strawmanning you just because you refuse to read between the lines or consider the full implications of the things that you say.

 

You are still missing the point - it wasn't that he said I implied "was making no money" that I misunderstood. He gave two options in his response - "not making money" AND "Not meeting EA's targeted goals". Thus he chose to shoe horn me into the "not making money" statement to try and act as thought there were no evidence out there to support this.

 

It can indeed be seen as saying "making no money" or "not profitable enough" are the same thing but NOT when the poster I quoted decided to differentiate them him/herself and then put me into one category for the sole purpose of being able to say "there is no proof of that".

 

Thus I stand by my response.

 

As for witch hunting .... huh?

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I wish that were true...I just don't see EA caring one way or another. SWTOR has had its run, it's made its money...games are disposable to EA. Only Bioware should have any fear of this game closing, which they clearly don't have.

 

The thing is they should care. Unless they are secretly developing an MMO we are unaware then letting this game slide into the point it no longer meets their profitability goals is not a good thing for them especially in light of how much they may have to for the license to have "star wars" in the first place ( which no one knows how that works - could be flat payment + royalties, could be monthly/annual expectation of payment and royalties etc. ).

 

I guess it's a case of you have to hit rock bottom to make your way back out again. Clearly they care about the game because of the latest trailer and what that would have cost and I think in light of that and the lacklustre performance of the KotET launch we should see a shake up coming.

 

Thing to remember is KoTFE quite likely broke through their goals of where they wanted it to be for the first few months ( highest sub point ) and may well have even tracked along within the realms of their minimum goals ( CM arbiter sabers remember were a massive cash cow on release ). It is only really now I feel we can clearly assume this game is not meeting their expectation.

 

So I guess it's what happens next - do they step in and shake things up or do nothing? I honestly don't believe they will take a "do nothing" approach even though it seems like they might do so from recent lack of intervention. We need remember that recent lack of intervention is on the back of goals being smashed through ( imo of course ).

[MeNaCe-NZ]

The only thing that makes any sense to me is if 2017 was the end for this game either way, which seems like the only logical conclusion. There's literally not ONE employee of Bioware Austin who seem to care any longer.

 

As anti as I am about 5.0 I think that's a really poor statement to make on your behalf.

 

Not sure what your involvement is within the business world and/or in particular the software development world but sometimes you just have to knuckle down and do as your told.

 

If you paid attention to the end credits of KotET you'll notice the team is quite large, larger in fact than I had assumed and I'm sure many of them were are both passionate and proud of their product.

 

Unfortunately it's decision making that is letting this game down and primarily around direction and design ( direction - to make as much money grinding as possible, design the GC system for examples ).

 

This needs to, imo, be lumped into the laps of the likes of Ben Irving who wear the mantle of producer for the game, who made sure his name was first off the ranks in the credits and thus it is him who should wear the flack for the state of the game ( likewise the praise if it were doing great ). I pick Ben out in particular because in the live streams he has been seeming to come across as completely out of touch with the community, surprised at our responses to GC etc. and borderline confrontational on being able to admit he is wrong and doing something about it.

 

Even as far back as the Open Letter compared to where are now is evidence enough of just how out of touch Ben is in regards to this game and I really think he is in way over his head.

 

Anyway point is perhaps don't blame everyone at BWA because in the end they are more than likely just doing as they've been instructed.

[Eshvara]

Back in the off topic I see?

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Seeing the interview where James Ohlen showed his burnout and how he asked off the game, I'm sure that feeling is there across the board. They are prob just done with this game and want to move on. Knowing how held back this game is b/c of the engine, I can see everyone who is a developer just wanting out. Why spend your career making something that you can't do properly b/c of the restrictions?

 

Held back because of the engine? Strangely enough I thought the same until 5.0 - they've come leaps and bounds with 5.0 I personally believe and that's probably one of the biggest positives in a long time for this game.

 

It tends to go under the radar though so good work to the guys who put in the work to get that extra oomph and efficient out of the engine, it was very surprising.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Well, regardless of my original first post in this thread, I do think they need to remove the restrictions in the game up to level 50....the entire game to level 50 should be free IMO.

 

I don't think that money restrictions are bad...in fact I would keep that in place to generate regular income, but I would raise the cap and sell extended caps in groups.

 

I would make all secondary parts of the game and the expansions pay only to unlock...for those that are not subbed of course.

 

I think that would be a far less draconian system than what is in place now.

 

The downside in 5.0 is they had a model where some people could buy unlocks with their money and those in game who had items to trade could trade those to be able to do the content.

 

It was flawed in a way due to the credit cap but it was still better than what 5.0 brought us. Now you sub or leave if you want end game content - many seem to be leaving.

 

A better idea imo would be bringing back unlocks, increasing the credit cap ( or other ideas I think you yourself put out around permanently lifting t X amount for CC) so people can afford the items others will pay cash for and removing "free CC" from referrals and have some other reward ( credits? ) so that BWA know any unlocks purchased MUST have come from people spending real world cash.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Back in the off topic I see?

 

Indeed - I'll mail Eric again about this. Perhaps he didn't get a chance to pass on to his staff around the moderation of these topics.

[Dilemmas]

You are still missing the point - it wasn't that he said I implied "was making no money" that I misunderstood. He gave two options in his response - "not making money" AND "Not meeting EA's targeted goals". Thus he chose to shoe horn me into the "not making money" statement to try and act as thought there were no evidence out there to support this.

 

It can indeed be seen as saying "making no money" or "not profitable enough" are the same thing but NOT when the poster I quoted decided to differentiate them him/herself and then put me into one category for the sole purpose of being able to say "there is no proof of that".

 

Thus I stand by my response.

 

As for witch hunting .... huh?

 

They didn't differentiate in the way that you seem to think, not as I read it anyway. The poster was just suggesting that there was no proof that the game actually needed to close as you were suggesting (i.e. not making any money), and that EA rather just wanted increased profits that may not have been necessary to the game's survival.

 

Again, I am not arguing the truth of this idea, simply that you are missing the point. I'm getting pretty tired of this though, so if you still disagree then I will leave it.

 

As for, ''witch hunting'', it's more or less what you're doing by going after anyone that does not hold the same opinions as you, sometimes going so far as to search them out or see opposing arguments where they don't exist.

[Transcendent]

Indeed - I'll mail Eric again about this. Perhaps he didn't get a chance to pass on to his staff around the moderation of these topics.

 

This topic is on a bungie cord. It's all over the place!

[DanNV]

This needs to, imo, be lumped into the laps of the likes of Ben Irving who wear the mantle of producer for the game, who made sure his name was first off the ranks in the credits and thus it is him who should wear the flack for the state of the game ( likewise the praise if it were doing great ). I pick Ben out in particular because in the live streams he has been seeming to come across as completely out of touch with the community, surprised at our responses to GC etc. and borderline confrontational on being able to admit he is wrong and doing something about it.

 

IMO, Ben should be fired. And today wouldn't be soon enough. He has trashed the game, either directly or through lack of leadership. (NO telling which, but either one should be grounds for termination.)

[MeNaCe-NZ]

This topic is on a bungie cord. It's all over the place!

 

Yes, we're back to general again.

[kodrac]

Yes, we're back to general again.

 

Until shift change.

[LordArtemis]

Good news, so I got an incredibly positive response from Eric about why this topic was moved after contacting community support:

 

 

 

Not moved yet but glad to see Eric is on top of this and indeed threads like this shouldn't really be getting moved.

 

Thanks in advance Eric when you do move this back.

 

This IMO is a HUGE move. A recognition (of sorts) that Bioware does not fear feedback, even if it is rather harsh.

 

They just scored a few points in my book.

 

Now, if we can only convince them to at least LOOK at their overall F2P model and consider some positive changes...that would be a very good step in the right direction.

Edited December 19, 2016 by LordArtemis

[JennyFlynn]

Well this thing just keeps jumping all over the place doesn't it?

 

Nice to see Eric's response though rather than more sweeping.

[Hathur]

edit nvm Edited December 19, 2016 by Hathur

[AlatarTheGrey]

Good news, so I got an incredibly positive response from Eric about why this topic was moved after contacting community support:

 

 

 

Not moved yet but glad to see Eric is on top of this and indeed threads like this shouldn't really be getting moved.

 

Thanks in advance Eric when you do move this back.

 

Standing O to BWA for moving this back. They've been taking a LOT of flack (deservedly IMO) and this move at least shows respect and integrity.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Standing O to BWA for moving this back. They've been taking a LOT of flack (deservedly IMO) and this move at least shows respect and integrity.

 

I think appreciation to Eric in particular, he received a lot of flack for some of things he passes on and has no control over but one area he does have control over is how the community itself is managed ( for the most part ).