Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Siem]

"WoW was designed for the lowest common denominator"

 

I've seen that come up a number of times now. Can anyone elaborate on this? I'm curious how you arrive at that conclusion.

 

The guy who said this tried to use it as an insult, though it really isn't one.

 

It basically means anyone can pick up the game and play it to some success. With or without any MMORPG experience. Prior MMOs usually assumed previous experience with the genre and offered little to no help for players new to the scene.

[Gohlar]

That's just plain false.

 

1) The different classes have different lengths on their animations and thus different delay

2) Even the mirror classes have different lengths on the animation of the same bloody ability.

 

Non channeled animations should be done within the GCD so this is a legitimate complaint.

 

The guy who said this tried to use it as an insult, though it really isn't one.

 

It basically means anyone can pick up the game and play it to some success. With or without any MMORPG experience. Prior MMOs usually assumed previous experience with the genre and offered little to no help for players new to the scene.

 

I meant computer/connection. Should have clarified.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Gohlar

[Manofmisery]

I meant hardware and connection wise, sorry.

 

Should have clarified. WoW is made to be played by people with slow computers and bad connections. I personally think that design philosophy is outdated. I like the more dynamic combat in SWTOR. It looks so much better.

 

You sir clearly do not know what dynamic is in programming. Dynamic is something that works on almost anything aka as wow. And guess what it's all about the gameplay and not about graphics, can you also please clarify what's dynamic on ability delays and sometimes ability's not working at all?

Edited December 28, 2011 by Manofmisery

[kalibri]

So I took my Sentinel out to check something I mentioned in the other thread.

 

I tossed my lightsaber at an enemy (Crippling Throw) and was unable to perform any attacks until I had caught my lightsaber.

 

I think this is incredibly awesome. If this is the line in the sand (as it were) for some people to go back to WoW, then.....have fun? It'll be great to log into the forums and not see thread after thread that all basically say "We want SWTOR to do <XXXXXXXXX> like WoW!!!!"

 

Explain the gcd then.

[Siem]

Non channeled animations should be done within the GCD so this is a legitimate complaint.

 

This is what the entire thread has been about.

[Gohlar]

You sir clearly do not know what dynamic is in programming. Dynamic is something that works on almost anything aka as wow. And guess what it's all about the gameplay and not about graphics.

 

Subjective is subjective. I find WoW very disconnected with the visual feedback meaning next to nothing.

 

This is what the entire thread has been about.

 

Yeah but people are confused.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Gohlar

[Calsium]

This thread describes a very serious issue. Please BioWare, adress this issue as soon as possible. I love the game, but when I'm in warzones, the ability delay is killing me mentaly.

 

Also I can't believe the people that come in here and say **** like "please don't make wow responsiveness", are they trolling? If WoW did anything right, it was the way characters respond to your key-presses. If swtor is to compete in this market, they need to atleast match up to their standard, if not I reckon that atleast all PvP'ers will simply change to the next big MMO release when it's out. Surely the game can run without having viable PvP-play, but in the end, would that make it able to fight games which do in addition to having decent PvE-content?

[EyePawd]

Gohlar sounds a bit like someone who quit WoW because of the introduction of Sparkle Ponies, Looking For Group, Hero Classes......

 

I could go on, but the point is there. For those that don't speak Warcraft, I'll translate: Hardcore MMO'er is hardcore.

 

Hate to break it to you, Sir, but WoW being the so-called 'lowest common denominator' really has nothing to do with it's continued and stable popularity.

 

The game has kept going for so long due to the major fundamentals of any game: great art design and aesthetic, Control response and playability, and a 'hook' (which in the case of WoW would be it's lore/universe, character design and adaptability).

 

I'm not saying TOR will not have any of these things or doesn't already. Hell, I'm not saying anything negative about TOR besides the technological glitches that I know will get ironed out, eventually.

 

Point in fact, I love the design, the refreshing focus on story first, and the fact that my character has their own tale to be told instead of being 'One of the many heroes', as WoW often frames it.

 

There is a problem, however, with delay. Whether it be intentional, or a side-effect of launch time jitters, only BioWare knows. But, having raided and PVPed in the high end of a few games, I can tell you that something is definitely up with TOR at the moment.

 

Summary: Don't let your blind rage over a game being popular make you 'that guy' in the forum thread.

 

You know, the one everyone wants to slap with a trout.

[kongzi]

I meant hardware and connection wise, sorry.

 

Should have clarified. WoW is made to be played by people with slow computers and bad connections. I personally think that design philosophy is outdated. I like the more dynamic combat in SWTOR. It looks so much better.

 

Thank you for clarifying... from the hardware point of view that makes sense. They did, however, adjust their graphics engine slightly from expansion to expansion to allow for more advanced effects, for example the water rendering that was changed at some point. Still, WoW can run on hardware that SWTOR wouldn't run on.

[Skerry]

You see, I really want you (The Reader) to understand the importance of this topic. To drive home "how" important this is. In fact I will say this: I am in no way shy to say that, the reason Warhammer Online, EQs, Rift, SWG etc. etc. could never "ever" get to anything near WoW subscriptions is the Character Responsiveness. All these games failed for many reasons, and a game "can" fail for many reasons and on many fronts but this single-one-category... is by "far" the #1 Reason why World of Warcraft is World of Warcraft.

 

Sorry, started to read the post - full intention of reading the whole thing, but got to the above and realized you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

 

In all the complaints I encountered, discussed and read about - character responsiveness was never part of it.

 

World of Warcraft is not the game it is because of Character Responsiveness.

 

This is a very bizarre belief.

 

Is it an issue? Yes, and am very confident they are looking into it - THE make or break issue of the game; hardly.

[Gohlar]

Gohlar sounds a bit like someone who quit WoW because of the introduction of Sparkle Ponies, Looking For Group, Hero Classes......

 

Played WoW until SWTOR came out.

 

I should have clarified I guess. I've already explained. It's my fault, it sounded bad the way I said it.

 

Thank you for clarifying... from the hardware point of view that makes sense. They did, however, adjust their graphics engine slightly from expansion to expansion to allow for more advanced effects, for example the water rendering that was changed at some point. Still, WoW can run on hardware that SWTOR wouldn't run on.

 

Oh yeah there is merit to making a game that way it's just SWTOR isn't made that way. I'm personally glad.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Gohlar

[kongzi]

Gohlar sounds a bit like someone who quit WoW because of the introduction of Sparkle Ponies, Looking For Group, Hero Classes......

 

I could go on, but the point is there. For those that don't speak Warcraft, I'll translate: Hardcore MMO'er is hardcore.

 

Hate to break it to you, Sir, but WoW being the so-called 'lowest common denominator' really has nothing to do with it's continued and stable popularity.

 

The game has kept going for so long due to the major fundamentals of any game: great art design and aesthetic, Control response and playability, and a 'hook' (which in the case of WoW would be it's lore/universe, character design and adaptability).

 

I'm not saying TOR will not have any of these things or doesn't already. Hell, I'm not saying anything negative about TOR besides the technological glitches that I know will get ironed out, eventually.

 

Point in fact, I love the design, the refreshing focus on story first, and the fact that my character has their own tale to be told instead of being 'One of the many heroes', as WoW often frames it.

 

There is a problem, however, with delay. Whether it be intentional, or a side-effect of launch time jitters, only BioWare knows. But, having raided and PVPed in the high end of a few games, I can tell you that something is definitely up with TOR at the moment.

 

Summary: Don't let your blind rage over a game being popular make you 'that guy' in the forum thread.

 

You know, the one everyone wants to slap with a trout.

 

Good post. I agree.

[mutharex]

"WoW was designed for the lowest common denominator"

 

I've seen that come up a number of times now. Can anyone elaborate on this? I'm curious how you arrive at that conclusion.

 

It was designed to run on low end machines, even years old ones. Also it tried attracting casuals in a genre that had none, by over simplifying itself

[DIggu]

I am on board with the OP 100%

 

I rolled a bounty hunter last night and got up to lvl10 to pick my specialization.

 

I went merc. Qued for for warzone and started playing.

 

 

 

Healing is almost unbearable. When casting rapid scan the heal doesn't HEAL until after the animation, which resulted in many people dying although my cast had finished, it just hadn't HEALED the HP yet.

 

Sometimes if I spam rapid scan fast enough I will end up over lapping the animation...it is really hard to explain, but I will be on my fourth cast of rapid scan before the third heal has landed which then completely bugs the next cast. Sometimes I will just lose my cast bar, but my character is still going through the animation. Other times I will have the cast bar but nothing is happening, no animation and no heal...

 

I have been an avid WoW player for 8 years. The problem is I really enjoy TOR and I want to see it succeed. This issue needs to be addressed let alone acknowledged.

[Gohlar]

Summary: Don't let your blind rage over a game being popular make you 'that guy' in the forum thread.

 

You know, the one everyone wants to slap with a trout.

 

You seem very eager to bite people's head off.

 

Don't be that guy. All of what you just said in all just in your head you know.

 

Good post. I agree.

 

And you're both confused...

Edited December 28, 2011 by Gohlar

[Skerry]

The guy who said this tried to use it as an insult, though it really isn't one.

 

It basically means anyone can pick up the game and play it to some success. With or without any MMORPG experience. Prior MMOs usually assumed previous experience with the genre and offered little to no help for players new to the scene.

 

This! YAY to the fact someone gets it.

 

WoW - when it came out, was to many gamers at the time already into MMO's for some years, considered MMO Lite. A starter MMO.

 

Very easy gameplay.

Very easy mechanics.

Very simple and quick to get into and quick to learn.

However, still had enough to allow theorycrafters to go nuts should they want to.

 

It also was designed to be able to be played on a wide range of systems and connections by lowering graphic quality and system resource requirements. Low end machines could play WoW quite well.

 

That is why WoW has the sub numbers it does.

[MagicmanNC]

Explain the gcd then.

 

Really?

 

 

Um....so you can't cast 35 abilities in a span of 1.5 seconds?

 

I will now spam buttons for 1.5 seconds.

 

dfsadfaerwgyrt4eahytr4

 

OK, 22 abilities in 1.5 seconds, unless my counting is wrong.

Edited December 28, 2011 by MagicmanNC

[Zironic]

Sorry, started to read the post - full intention of reading the whole thing, but got to the above and realized you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

 

In all the complaints I encountered, discussed and read about - character responsiveness was never part of it.

 

World of Warcraft is not the game it is because of Character Responsiveness.

 

This is a very bizarre belief.

 

Is it an issue? Yes, and am very confident they are looking into it - THE make or break issue of the game; hardly.

 

Well, the singularly most important part of a game is the 'fun to play' factor and it's there that while many might not mention responsiveness specifically, mostly because it's really hard to put your finger on the issue. They will say that they just didn't find the game enjoyable.

 

Though most games also had a horrifyingly poor Class design, so even if the game was ultra-responsive it would still be dull as hell to play. You'd think most game designers just put a bunch of abilities ideas on a dartboard and then put them randomly into classes.

 

I think it's really worth remembering that Bioware has no experience AT ALL with making good game mechanics. They've always made games that have had a good story and **** gameplay, and people always play their games anyhow, because the story is good enough to make up for it.

 

Odds of them fixing SWTORS gameplay are close to nil sadly.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Zironic

[DannyInternets]

The unresponsiveness of combat is what killed Warhammer Online for me and I really hope they address it in this game.

[veevito]

Well, even though I don't really experience this on my guardian, since I have yet to come across a non channeled ability that has an animation that lasts longer than the GCD, the only "fix" that I would be against is removing or clipping animations. And the channeled ones like master strike can be interrupted at any time by another ability.

 

You can disagree all you like or even bash me, but I find the combat animations to add incredible amounts of style and immersion to my character. The standard mmo philosophy of clipping animations or barely having any to begin with like wow always annoyed me.

 

So, if you can fix whatever it is that you guys seem to be experiencing WITHOUT borking the animations or clipping them up to death, than i'm all for it. But I wouldn't make the mistake of thinking that people aren't actually enjoying the game in part because of the combat animations.

 

That is my opinion.

[Lethality]

It's not responsive, it just tricked you into thinking it is.

 

You guys really don't get it at all...

 

And the combat isn't really choreographed in TOR, it just tricked you into thinking it is.

 

Don't dismiss the issue, it's real.

[asbalana]

As posted by Larlar in the previous thread -

 

Just to further the point, I wrote a review of Rift a few months back. I want to copy and paste what I wrote as it almost applies directly to this game aswell:

 

"Now, first of all, I'm going to focus on the negative, as for me one of the big let-downs in this game is the same let-down that has afflicted almost every fantasy MMO I have tried in the last 5/6 years - apart from Warcaft. That let down is the feel of the game and the gameplay - that elusive quality that you feel as you take control of your character: the responsiveness of the UI; the speed at which actions are executed on-screen when you press a key; the fluency of your movements and the degree in which you feel totally in control of your character. I guess its the very first thing I look for in any new game, and so far, nothing comes close to Wow in this regard. When you execute an ability in wow, you know it, and when you get hit by something - you know it. Like Age of Conan, Aion and Warhammer, Rift just doesn't get this critical aspect of the game quite right. Things just feel a little clunky and ever so slightly less responsive than a character in wow does.

 

...

Even at the very lowest graphics settings, the gameplay just doesn't feel smooth or perfectly responsive. Considering all of the games mentioned are more modern than WOW by a significant margin that is a damning indictment of the developers of these new games. Ultimately it is my view that this is the primary reason these new games get steamrollered by wow, and continually fall by the wayside as WOW dwarfs their subscription numbers.

 

This is my main gripe and its the absolute clincher for me when deciding whether I was going to actually buy the full version. There was lots to like, but ultimately, I couldnt justify paying the money when the game just doesn't feel fluent and doesn't feel polished in the area that really really counts - the gameplay."

 

Its the same thing... almost exactly. So therefore, I fully agree with the OP and the vast majority of people in this thread. This needs to be sorted and sorted fast.

 

_______________________________

 

I was struck by this, because I tried Rift and left it after a few weeks of play for exactly that reason. The game play just did not feel right or good.

 

I went back to WOW for a few months even though the game itself bores me to tears and was totally screwed up in the Cata release just because the combat felt so smooth and good. Fights were fun and felt natural.

 

I just love swtor as a game and everything about it except the combat problems described. The overall combat is great in that I love the talents and abilities of the classes and what they should be able to do. Much of the time the combat is engaging but the problems described by the OP are indeed offputting. Delays in casts and misfires just break the rhythm of play and fights. I have, a few times, fought an elite or elites and the elite and I have come down to almost zero health with the next cast wins and died because I have hit a cast and had it delay or not fire and stood there and watched as I was sent to the JC happy hunting grounds.

 

I am not a top tier player or a pvp player, but even in my noobishness feel the issue.

 

If, as some have said, this problem is not fixable I feel bad for the game and the millions of devoted fans who love what has been created by BW. Like most, I will continue to play for a while because otherwise the game is that good. I do not see a long term (multiple years) stay in game although that is what I would like, if the issue is not addressed. I will never go back to WOW and guess I will just have to wait until the next great MMO is launched.

 

As a final thought, I just do not understand how something this basic of a problem exists at launch. I understand bugs. I understand missing elements. But this is core to any MMO and the devs have been playing the game for years while developing it and people have said that the issue has been identified in beta. How was this not addressed? Or is this something that like so many WOW flaws will be said to be working as intended?

Edited December 28, 2011 by asbalana

[Gohlar]

Well, even though I don't really experience this on my guardian, since I have yet to come across a non channeled ability that has an animation that lasts longer than the GCD, the only "fix" that I would be against is removing or clipping animations. And the channeled ones like master strike can be interrupted at any time by another ability.

 

You can disagree all you like or even bash me, but I find the combat animations to add incredible amounts of style and immersion to my character. The standard mmo philosophy of clipping animations or barely having any to begin with like wow always annoyed me.

 

So, if you can fix whatever it is that you guys seem to be experiencing WITHOUT borking the animations or clipping them up to death, than i'm all for it. But I wouldn't make the mistake of thinking that people aren't actually enjoying the game in part because of the combat animations.

 

That is my opinion.

 

Yeah that's what I was trying to say.

 

No slappy hands WoW fighting please.

 

And the combat isn't really choreographed in TOR, it just tricked you into thinking it is.

 

I don't think you thought this through lol. Also see above.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Gohlar

[Tanaboon]

Well, now that we know BW has seen this thread, PLEASE HEED OP'S WARNING. The game WILL fail if this isn't fixed, and I don't want it to fail.

[Lethality]

Yeah that's what I was trying to say.

 

No slappy hands WoW fighting please.

 

I spam more keys in TOR than I ever did in WoW.

 

The issue is not HOW you fight, not even the results of fighting (though, in some cases it is.) It's about how combat feels and how fun it is. There is an inherent mechanical disconnect there, and many players can't quite verbalize it.

 

This thread finally does.