Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Monkertrol]

if this isn't fixed i dont see any reason for them to add ranked warzones or any form of pvp ladder. This needs to go to the top of their queue of fixes.

[Zakumene]

You have no clue.

 

Do you know what the global cooldown exists for? Allow me to educate you: the GCD exists to pace the flow of combat. The GCD, in tandem with ability cooldowns, is used by this game's combat system to determine how often a player can attack. It is debatable whether this system is effective or not, but that's irrelevant to this discussion. Very popular AAA titles use this system, namely World of Warcraft.

 

Allow me to educate you on another system, which, if I recall correctly, was actually used in Guild Wars: animation timing, in tandem with ability cooldowns. As above these two things are used to control the pace of combat and determine how often a player can attack. Again, it is debatable whether it actually works or not, but it is irrelevant.

 

Now before I go on, let us take a look at SWTOR combat. We shouldn't beat about the bush here so I'll be frank -- pretty much every single element is taken directly from WoW. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, and I love SWTOR, but it is simply a fact that needs to be acknowledged. If there's anything we can say that WoW did right with its combat system, it would be the fluidity and responsiveness that a GCD-combat system naturally brings to the table, so naturally SWTOR should try to emulate that above all else, right?

 

What does SWTOR use? Well, it uses a GCD. But it also uses animations, AND it uses ability cooldowns. The GCD does nothing in deference for an animation system that is, right now, broken. Ultimately this means that the GCD is completely redundant and serves no purpose, because half of the time the player will be unable to act whilst waiting for an animation to finish. Combining both systems is an incredibly poor way to deal with the GCD problem and it shows clearly in this thread, because it results in combat that many people consider clunky and unresponsive.

 

The only way to possibly resolve this issue is to allow animations to be broken midway through when another ability is activated. It may look silly, it may not, but it is the only way to salvage SWTOR's combat system. This is a fact and if you're not capable of comprehend it, well I envy you for your ignorance and pity you at the same time, but it doesn't change the matter whatsoever.

 

All you've done was summarize that what they've done is working as intended. If you swing your lightsaber at me, you'll have to follow through with that swing before you make your next one.

 

Deal with it.

[HoneyBoy]

I know dude, the way you could ride your mount in large circles in Org after you locked yourself to every dungeon was so amazing and responsive.

 

What does that anti-WoW vitriol have to do with the comparison of WoW's combat fluidness vs SWTORs?

 

And your response to alacrity being broken because of animations is "well it's broken for everyone!".

 

Seriously? You think that's good game design having a totally busted stat?

 

I think we all get it, you don't like WoW. That's okay, we both like SWTOR, there's nothing wrong in pointing out a criticism with SWTOR's combat system.

[Xzenorath]

You and your RP server cronies that agree with this can go back to holding one another anytime now. Thousands of people have voiced there frustration with this issue, and only a few RP'ers have found there way in here and enjoy the unresponsive, slower than molasses combat. Please go play a platformer and enjoy the nice slow gameplay, but please don't ever join my pvp server.

 

I play on a PVP server and I wreck people.

 

Nice try cupcake, how about you go back to WoW since it's so amazing?

 

 

Get your ****** spin-sunders followed by spin-mortal strikes followed by spin-cleaves followed by spin-everything outta here and go back to killing night elves.

 

I'm gonna keep enjoying my glowsticks and laser bolts while I wait for these bugs to get fixed instead of coming here to cry about it.

[Zakumene]

You and your RP server cronies that agree with this can go back to holding one another anytime now. Thousands of people have voiced there frustration with this issue, and only a few RP'ers have found there way in here and enjoy the unresponsive, slower than molasses combat. Please go play a platformer and enjoy the nice slow gameplay, but please don't ever join my pvp server.

 

 

As long as everyone is experiencing the same animation and gcd queue interactions the game is fair, no?

[Paganini]

All you've done was summarize that what they've done is working as intended. If you swing your lightsaber at me, you'll have to follow through with that swing before you make your next one.

 

Deal with it.

 

How is me not being able to use my off GCD interrupt off of the GCD if an animation is going on (90% of the time) working as intended??

 

As long as everyone is experiencing the same animation and gcd queue interactions the game is fair, no?

 

 

Fair and unresponsive, yes.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Paganini

[Isende]

I don't play a healer so I couldn't give you one of those.

 

I play a Shadow and here are some of the issues I run into:

 

 

My instant cast interrupt off the GCD has about a .5-1.5 second delay when I'm in the middle of a Clairovoyant strike or other saber animation. This is game-breaking by itself.

 

Deflection has a looong animation that often has trouble firing up. I usually have to precast this by at least 3 seconds, 5 to be extra safe. Comical.

 

Often times Clairovoyant strike will cast twice when I only want it to hit once.

 

Resilience and Force of Will both usually work, but about 20% of the time they have a 1-3 second delay.

 

Shadow Strike (Backstab) is nearly unusable in warzones due to the constant warping, clipping and server-side packet loss. This is another issue though so I'll leave it there.

 

i play a jedi consular healer, and i have about three heal spells, at lvl 33. one instant, one 1.5 sec cast, and one 3 sec cast. CONSISTENTLY, if i pop the instant, and immediately pop the 1.5 to follow it (hot followed with a small heal to top it off) the second cast DOES NOT BEGIN. i have to wait for the animation to complete, even though the gcd has completed and the second spell is showing as ready to be cast. i get a "spell not ready" error and MUST wait for the animation to complete. now, being a decent player, i've learned this and work around it -- but yeah, i've had tanks fall. this is one example of the issue, but by no means the strongest. for instance, tank gets hit with a death blast -- i pop my instant, then my 3 sec, then my instant again then the 1.5 sec if it's still needed. but i can't pop them as soon as they're ready, i MUST WAIT FOR THE ANIMATIONS TO COMPLETE.

 

if the tank has used their cds, and i've used my bubble, and i'm just sitting there waiting on the system to say "ok, animation complete, NOW you can cast your next spell" there's absolutely not a DAMNED thing i can do to fix this.

 

this IS a major gameplay issue.

[Zakumene]

Since you won't check the OP, I'll link it here:

 

 

Both 0:08 and 0:13 are examples of bad game mechanics.

 

Did you even watch this? He is clearly spamming the button while his GCD is ticking down.... No wonder it didnt use his ability.

[MaceTowani]

Why would your enemy moving indicate a stun wore off you? You are obviously not following the conversation or dodguing the qeustion.

 

And why is it ok for you to mash buttons but if anyone else does it is exploiting?

 

This is ridiculous.

 

Not that it wore off, but I calculate the amount of time it took for them to close the gap and or strike as a good indicator. It's just how I adapt and perceive things and keep the amount of elapsed time in my head. But if you want a way to leave the stun at the EXACT moment 100% of the time then I don't know what to tell ya.

 

I'm not button mashing, I merely stated that I tapped the jump button on occasion to make sure that my hunch when the time elapsed was right or not, though usually it is.

 

Anyway, how about you play the game and try it instead of complaining about it all day. Take the advice of someone who DOESN'T have your problem, not people who do.

[HoneyBoy]

All you've done was summarize that what they've done is working as intended. If you swing your lightsaber at me, you'll have to follow through with that swing before you make your next one.

 

Deal with it.

 

Did you even watch this? He is clearly spamming the button while his GCD is ticking down.... No wonder it didnt use his ability.

 

It's not working as intended though as someone already pointed out:

 

 

In the video the player is unable to use Riposte even though its description (which we have to assume is what bioware intended for the ability) says it "does not respect the global cooldown".

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/2Zt5kfR

Edited December 28, 2011 by HoneyBoy

[Khoranth]

EQ1 was not responsive until late in its life cycle. See any pattern?

 

EQ was always responsive. Now comparitively, the combat was much simpler then current MMORPG's, that should be noted, but EQ combat was always responsive.

 

The only time abilities lagged in EQ was when i had actual lag.

[Babykoui]

I feel that the overall GCD of the game should be reduced from 1.5 seconds to 1 second and the animations sped up to compensate and not get in the way of combat, animations should never trump what the ability actually does and for it to execute when desired, not after a canned animation.

[Zakumene]

What does that anti-WoW vitriol have to do with the comparison of WoW's combat fluidness vs SWTORs?

 

And your response to alacrity being broken because of animations is "well it's broken for everyone!".

 

Seriously? You think that's good game design having a totally busted stat?

 

I think we all get it, you don't like WoW. That's okay, we both like SWTOR, there's nothing wrong in pointing out a criticism with SWTOR's combat system.

 

Not "broken for everyone", but "working as intended for everyone".

 

I suspect alacrity will shine for healing classes that have long heals with short animations.

 

Most of the videos I've seen describing this problem are trying to use abilities while the GCD bar is still up....

[Elog]

WOW WAS SMOOTH AND RESPONSIVE DAY 1.

 

This is simply not true. The net code walked in thick syrup until mid spring and the WoW as we know it existed just before the summer - a little more than 6 months after release.

 

To some extent it does not matter but let's keep to the truth.

[Olzmo]

SWTOR is competing with WoW today, not in 2004, should I just unsub and come back in 7 years?

You know, this is Bioware's entry game in the MMORPG market. Of course they should learn from other games made by other companies but for the said reason I think it's sort of unfair to demand an absolute absence of any flaw that has been present in some other past MMORPG. But then again, I don't know what I'm talking about. I have just a tiny modicum of programming experience.

[Xzenorath]

WOW WAS SMOOTH AND RESPONSIVE DAY 1

 

WOW WAS SMOOTH AND RESPONSIVE DAY 1

 

WOW WAS SMOOTH AND RESPONSIVE DAY 1

 

WOW WAS SMOOTH AND RESPONSIVE DAY 1

 

WOW WAS SMOOTH AND RESPONSIVE DAY 1

 

WOW WAS SMOOTH AND RESPONSIVE DAY 1

 

WOW WAS SMOOTH AND RESPONSIVE DAY 1

 

WOW WAS SMOOTH AND RESPONSIVE DAY 1

 

WOW WAS SMOOTH AND RESPONSIVE DAY 1

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry for the spam but I really am sc****** the bottom of the barrel for a way to communicate with some of the people on this forum.

 

Smooth and responsive? No it wasn't, it lagged like balls and sucked horribly. Have you never been to Tarren Mill / Southshore battles? Yeah that **** was smooth like the insides of a cement truck.

 

Also; it looked terrible. 60% of your skills did the same animations. The dodges and parries never connected. You probably don't remember using charge and doing zig-zags all over the bugged terrain.

 

I bet you never tried to blink onto a bridge either.

 

Forget having a tiny rock between your location and the blink target.

 

Yeah, WoW is the damn best thing since sliced bread.

 

 

Don't you love watching those people wall-walking their way up to the top of the Warsong flagroom and being immune to attacks? Man that **** was the bomb, almost makes me want to resub.

[HoneyBoy]

So far it seems the argument has boiled down to two sides:

 

The first saying the combat system isn't as fluid as the GCD and UI lead you to believe.

 

The other saying "Just play the game" "Learn to adapt to this broken system" and "At least it's fair for everyone then!"

[Xzenorath]

So far it seems the argument has boiled down to two sides:

 

The first saying the combat system isn't as fluid as the GCD and UI lead you to believe.

 

The other saying "Just play the game" "Learn to adapt to this broken system" and "At least it's fair for everyone then!"

 

Also you forgot:

 

It'll be fixed. You can stop crying about it.

[MaceTowani]

i play a jedi consular healer, and i have about three heal spells, at lvl 33. one instant, one 1.5 sec cast, and one 3 sec cast. CONSISTENTLY, if i pop the instant, and immediately pop the 1.5 to follow it (hot followed with a small heal to top it off) the second cast DOES NOT BEGIN. i have to wait for the animation to complete, even though the gcd has completed and the second spell is showing as ready to be cast. i get a "spell not ready" error and MUST wait for the animation to complete. now, being a decent player, i've learned this and work around it -- but yeah, i've had tanks fall. this is one example of the issue, but by no means the strongest. for instance, tank gets hit with a death blast -- i pop my instant, then my 3 sec, then my instant again then the 1.5 sec if it's still needed. but i can't pop them as soon as they're ready, i MUST WAIT FOR THE ANIMATIONS TO COMPLETE.

 

if the tank has used their cds, and i've used my bubble, and i'm just sitting there waiting on the system to say "ok, animation complete, NOW you can cast your next spell" there's absolutely not a DAMNED thing i can do to fix this.

 

this IS a major gameplay issue.

 

I am a healer and I have NO such problems. I anticipate when the health drops with careful planning and strategy instead of panic healing and etc. None of my companions or party mates ever fall below half-health(unless their getting swarmed, but I always anticipate it before it happens and give them a complimentary heal then another one directly after anticipating that their health will fall fast aggroing two-three strong/elite enemies).

[Isende]

You and your RP server cronies that agree with this can go back to holding one another anytime now. Thousands of people have voiced there frustration with this issue, and only a few RP'ers have found there way in here and enjoy the unresponsive, slower than molasses combat. Please go play a platformer and enjoy the nice slow gameplay, but please don't ever join my pvp server.

 

yeah, ima take exception to this. first of all, i may've missed it somehow, but saw no mention of rp. second of all, while i wholeheartedly disagree with the thrust of the opinion you quoted, i will point out a couple of things:

 

1) gameplay and animation IS important to me -- i rp so gameplay and animation are important issues to me

 

2) please note that gameplay was listed first, above. the fact that i choose to rp in no way diminishes my ability to play, nor my ability to watch what's happening and figure out how to work around it. that said? even with the current "work arounds" i still have tanks fall. means that no mantter how well i like the animations, the gameplay is somewhat broken.

 

3) stop the vitriol. address the issues, stop labeling and categorizing folk because they state something in opposition to what you state. this is not constructive. offer something constructive, or be silent.

[badchx]

So far it seems the argument has boiled down to two sides:

 

The first saying the combat system isn't as fluid as the GCD and UI lead you to believe.

 

The other saying "Just play the game" "Learn to adapt to this broken system" and "At least it's fair for everyone then!"

 

Hehe, and indirectly agreeing.

[Zakumene]

How is me not being able to use my off GCD interrupt off of the GCD if an animation is going on (90% of the time) working as intended??

 

 

 

 

Fair and unresponsive, yes.

 

 

Animation clipping looks terrible, finish what you started!

[Archetypee]

I have found TOR to be fairly responsive, but I will try to pay attention to this in the future. If it is an issue then it really needs to be fixed. Character responsiveness is directly related to player immersion.

[Isende]

So far it seems the argument has boiled down to two sides:

 

The first saying the combat system isn't as fluid as the GCD and UI lead you to believe.

 

The other saying "Just play the game" "Learn to adapt to this broken system" and "At least it's fair for everyone then!"

 

you hit the nail on the head. the question then becomes one for the customer service mavens to consider: who's going to be the bigger subscription base? the fact that tor has had to "restart" this thread indicates that there's a strong contingent saying, "yeah, animations are nice, but don't let them interfere with gameplay." the next question becomes: what will be the end result? that's going to depend on the answer to the first question.

[Devolution]

Did you even watch this? He is clearly spamming the button while his GCD is ticking down.... No wonder it didnt use his ability.

 

Yes, I watched it, I made it. I already had to do this for someone 30 minutes ago.

 

Riposte (the ability I'm trying to use)

http://www.torhead.com/ability/2Zt5kfR

 

It does not respect the global cooldown, and therefore should be usable during a global cooldown.