Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[samdbtto]

Just did some more testing regarding responsiveness.

Made a clip showing my Priest in wow, and a clip of my Sith doing the same move.

 

 

It feels like swtor is like me, a little bit slower than the rest of the world (of warcraft).

 

PS. Addons might not be such a bad idea? Quartz with latencytimer. Love that addon.

 

This is perfect, it illustrates the feel of the game we think is missing in its current state. So basic, but this is the best clip I've seen showing what I think is wrong. Been almost a year since I quit WoW, I forgot how smooth it is.

Edited December 30, 2011 by samdbtto

[fallenvirtues]

I give you a simple answer, since you asking for one!

 

When I use my ability Saber Throw, which is instant, I have no problem if the damage hits .5 seconds after the cast, even though I am used of another mechanics.

 

But when I use Force Kick, to interrupt an ability (a chanelled cast) I dont accept delays in the effect of the Kick taking place. It has to be immediately.

 

I hope you are satisfied with my answer and catch the spirit and you like this compromise.

 

YOu still didnt answer the actual question....you focused on my comment about instant attacks...

 

I agree with up close interupts should go instantly...Im talkin more on the saber throw or grenade throw type instant attacks that should do what they do upon impact..Even though this is a game, it doesnt mean it cant have SOME realism to it...

 

But now this is where I dont have a problem...During Boarding party last night, everytime I hit my interupt, it worked perfectly...I dont get why it doesnt for you (in a PvE sceneraio..Not PvP)

 

I do agree, things like shock wave, kicks and so forth should instantly happen and let the animation finish out...I can compromise to

[Xcore]

Let me ask you guys this...Can there be any compromise with you all? If BW was able to fix the buggyness of the UI but still had damage corresponding with the animation and it worked perfectly with no problems with the execution i.e firing off as soon as you hit the button...Would that make you happy???

 

I personally like the animations in there...I realize that makes some instant casts not so instant...But I like the fact that you have to wait for the grenade to land on the mob before it explodes...The saber actually has to make contact before it inflicts damage instead of damage numbers poppin out before any type of lame animation follows...

 

I am not saying its definitely gonna be fixed/changed/stay the same nor am i offering a solution to fixing it...Non of that...Im simply asking if the animations stayed the same and their influence on how damage was distributed BUT there was no delay from when you hit the button and when the attack/ability started, would you be able to live with that and enjoy it???

 

Fallen,

 

Yes it would make me happy... I don't really care that much for how fancy the animations are. I like them a lot currently and thats nice. However, "NOTHING" is more important that Gameplay and Responsiveness/Feeling is the most important part of Gameplay. Having said this, what you propose:

 

"Would it make me happy if things fired off instantly when I press the button but the damage still corresponds to the animation?"

 

I have to answer, it depends... I don't much care for the detail of if the lightsaber hits you it does damage or when I hit the button. It should be less than .01 difference anyways there. However, if you ask about the Grenade which has some travel time before it "Hits" the person... does it do damage when I push the button or when the grenade hits the person?

 

Well of course when it hits the person my dear friend, not because I "love the animation" so much but because there is absolutely no problem with that! Take WoW for example, which we all agree has the Responsiveness we strive for, a Frostbolt does damage when it hits the target, not when it leaves the player. However, I do believe the determined damage and the details (Math) behind it (does it resist, do 123dmg or 400 crit) is calculated when it leaves the player.

 

But you'd see the damage (register) only when it hits the target.

 

 

So, to your question... "it depends". I'm ok with the Grenade registering the damage when it hits the target not leaves my Avatar. However, what I am NOT AT ALL ok with is not being able to throw the fkin thing because my character is busy stuck in an animation (like in the OP Video).

 

 

 

Hope this is a decent answer my friend, I do enjoy reading your posts even when you get a hard time sometimes.

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Crucial Edit here as I read your post above! --

 

Instant attack but ranged registering instant damage or when it connects? Such as "Fire Blast"!?

 

Well this is another topic! -- My answer remains the same as the above Grenade example. If any WoW and PvP Purists disagree, I do believe WoW does it this way still (That instant ranged ability still registers damage only when it hits the target not leaves the player) as in Lava Burst (Instant) Procs etc. etc.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Xcore

[Rustcan]

This is one of the factors that drove me away from Warhammer Online. I have always been of the opinion that one of the most subtle foundations for success of WoW (and one of the reasons it kept so many subs over the years) was it's instantaneous response to user input of your character. IMO, if SWTOR can emulate that, the game will keep subs for a long while - including mine. So many players are looking for a new MMO, but it seems many developers don't understand that more than anything, Warcraft gives that unparalleled control.

 

No, those of us who state this are not returning to that game - we simply would like SWTOR to have that level of responsiveness.

[Khaleth]

Totally agree with OP. Pity that the game will fail because of this. Everything else is great, but it fails on the basics. I don't think this problem is easily fixed with a patch so I'm afraid this game will be a Warhammer 2.0.

[fallenvirtues]

Fallen,

 

Yes it would make me happy... I don't really care that much for how fancy the animations are. I like them a lot currently and thats nice. However, "NOTHING" is more important that Gameplay and Responsiveness/Feeling is the most important part of Gameplay. Having said this, what you propose:

 

"Would it make me happy if things fired off instantly when I press the button but the damage still corresponds to the animation?"

 

I have to answer, it depends... I don't much care for the detail of if the lightsaber hits you it does damage or when I hit the button. It should be less than .01 difference anyways there. However, if you ask about the Grenade which has some travel time before it "Hits" the person... does it do damage when I push the button or when the grenade hits the person?

 

Well of course when it hits the person my dear friend, not because I "love the animation" so much but because there is absolutely no problem with that! Take WoW for example, which we all agree has the Responsiveness we strive for, a Frostbolt does damage when it hits the target, not when it leaves the player. However, I do believe the determined damage and the details (Math) behind it (does it resist, do 123dmg or 400 crit) is calculated when it leaves the player.

 

But you'd see the damage (register) only when it hits the target.

 

 

So, to your question... "it depends". I'm ok with the Grenade registering the damage when it hits the target not leaves my Avatar. However, what I am NOT AT ALL ok with is not being able to throw the fkin thing because my character is busy stuck in an animation (like in the OP Video).

 

 

 

Hope this is a decent answer my friend, I do enjoy reading your posts even when you get a hard time sometimes.

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Crucial Edit here as I read your post above! --

 

Instant attack but ranged registering instant damage or when it connects? Such as "Fire Blast"!?

 

Well this is another topic! -- My answer remains the same as the above Grenade example. If any WoW and PvP Purists disagree, I do believe WoW does it this way still (That instant ranged ability still registers damage only when it hits the target not leaves the player) as in Lava Burst (Instant) Procs etc. etc.

 

Finally a real answer!!!! Ty

 

Please dont think gameplay is not important to me for one second, I just find the way combat looks to be nice and refreshing and for once I am actually entertained by the visuals of the fight...I do agree it is not more important...I just hope they can keep it incorporated but yet make the responsiveness work the way it should so everyone is happy

[AlkalineKitten]

Just as an aside:

LotRO, also a promising project once, also had this issue from the beginning:

long-winded combat animations and no direct control over your character.

It was a game where you watched your character doing sth. rather than actually doing sth.

 

Turbine realized that this was a core problem and changed it, made "instant" abilities truly instant or "immediate" as they then phrased it.

 

These immediate skills/abilities interrupt every on-going animation and acts out the ability at the BEGINNING of its animation.

Combat felt much smoother, directer than before but still nothing like WoW, which is really a shame since both LotRO and TOR have much more potential story-wise than WoW but nothing beats WoW's gameplay smoothness/direct responsiveness at the moment (at least nothing I have played and I play A LOT).

 

Coming from someone that canncelled WoW and doesn't want to go back to a world of Pandas (even though Chuck Norris almost had me going back .

 

I wish my Shadow responded as slick as my Warden.

[SoloHand]

/signed for the OP...I love everything about this game accept the feeling of being disconnected from my character in combat ( and also the crap UI but that's for another thread ).

[Xcore]

Finally a real answer!!!! Ty

 

Please dont think gameplay is not important to me for one second, I just find the way combat looks to be nice and refreshing and for once I am actually entertained by the visuals of the fight...I do agree it is not more important...I just hope they can keep it incorporated but yet make the responsiveness work the way it should so everyone is happy

 

As long as you don't get me wrong and believe that I don't like and appreciate the animations! In fact, I agree... SW:TOR as a whole is incredibly refreshing and the animations play a large part. However, I am very cautious about favoring them above the gameplay and Bioware has undoubtedly done just that, which is what we are trying to correct.

 

Because, if this can and is corrected... well then, as I've said before... THIS (This game etc.) is "it". But the gap from "meh" to "it" is 0.5 seconds (HUGE)

[Reedful]

Travel time is a whole separate issue. Ability delay is a fundamental flaw that is probably not going to be fixed. The reason this is so awful is it's probably an engine issue which is not going to be repairable partially because BioWare doesn't even own the Hero Engine. Blizzard is sitting on D3 and the SC2 expansion with DotA in it and both of those options seem better than not being able to control the character I'm supposed to spend ~335 Warzones gearing up.

[Digitalpossum]

OK, I can't quote my last post because I can't bloody well find it! We really need a working search feature or "View my posts".

 

Anyway, I had stated yesterday that I had been playing on a 4+ year old computer with an AMD dual core processor, 4 GB of RAM and an 8800GT OC with 512 MB of video RAM. Yesterday I received my new computer. Core i7 2600K, 8 GB of RAM and dual 6850s in Crossfire mode with a total of 2 GB of video RAM.

 

On my old computer, I had been seeing this issue, but since so many others had been having the same issue, I didn't attribute it to my hardware, primarily. Then lenonk pointed out that he had recently switched from an older laptop with an 8800GT to a newer laptop with, (I think he said) a 6950. He stated that the switch to the newer computer cleared the issue up for him and he speculated if the issue may not be solely game design, but also some hardware induced latency.

 

So, my girlfriend and I conducted a little experiment. Last night, as I was playing, the game did seem more responsive to me. So I thought perhaps lenonk had been right. However, this evening, my girlfriend logged on my machine and was able to duplicate the issue she's been experiencing on her laptop (which is newer than my old desktop) from the start.

 

So, our joint conclusion is this... The issue seems to stem from the game design, for certain abilities on certain classes. But, it is also likely that the lack of character responsiveness is exacerbated by hardware induced latency on older machines. New hardware helps in SOME cases, but definitely NOT all.

 

Just the observation of two experienced MMO players, on three different computers, trying four different classes/roles (a mix of melee tank & DPS, and caster heals & DPS).

[Xcore]

Travel time is a whole separate issue. Ability delay is a fundamental flaw that is probably not going to be fixed. The reason this is so awful is it's probably an engine issue which is not going to be repairable partially because BioWare doesn't even own the Hero Engine. Blizzard is sitting on D3 and the SC2 expansion with DotA in it and both of those options seem better than not being able to control the character I'm supposed to spend ~335 Warzones gearing up.

 

I'm afraid that I agree and am very sceptical still but the thing that gives me some hope is the space combat, I believe it to be top-notch responsive. If it is using the same engine, perhaps there is hope.

 

I personally believe it isn't the engine but the developing code... but that changes nothing, this will not be a simple fix as it in the first place is "very" multi-layered.

 

 

Lets see what Georg has to say...

[fallenvirtues]

As long as you don't get me wrong and believe that I don't like and appreciate the animations! In fact, I agree... SW:TOR as a whole is incredibly refreshing and the animations play a large part. However, I am very cautious about favoring them above the gameplay and Bioware has undoubtedly done just that, which is what we are trying to correct.

 

Because, if this can and is corrected... well then, as I've said before... THIS (This game etc.) is "it". But the gap from "meh" to "it" is 0.5 seconds (HUGE)

 

I understand completely and I really think BW intended for everything to match up and work flawless and to not have one over the other but both working perfectly

 

I have been a avid poster in this thread because I want everyone to enjoy this game as much as I do!!!

[AlkalineKitten]

This issue is under active investigation.

 

The complication is that there are actually a number of different issues with very different causes and potential resolutions lumped together in this thread.

 

All we can say for now is 'we are actively working on the topic of character responsiveness'.

 

I've been active in this thread(s) since the beginning, so I did want to thank you for this response, and not giving the issue the hard "Working As Intended" shut down.

 

I look forward to future communication on the issue!

[Xcore]

OK, I can't quote my last post because I can't bloody well find it! We really need a working search feature or "View my posts".

 

Anyway, I had stated yesterday that I had been playing on a 4+ year old computer with an AMD dual core processor, 4 GB of RAM and an 8800GT OC with 512 MB of video RAM. Yesterday I received my new computer. Core i7 2600K, 8 GB of RAM and dual 6850s in Crossfire mode with a total of 2 GB of video RAM.

 

On my old computer, I had been seeing this issue, but since so many others had been having the same issue, I didn't attribute it to my hardware, primarily. Then lenonk pointed out that he had recently switched from an older laptop with an 8800GT to a newer laptop with, (I think he said) a 6950. He stated that the switch to the newer computer cleared the issue up for him and he speculated if the issue may not be solely game design, but also some hardware induced latency.

 

So, my girlfriend and I conducted a little experiment. Last night, as I was playing, the game did seem more responsive to me. So I thought perhaps lenonk had been right. However, this evening, my girlfriend logged on my machine and was able to duplicate the issue she's been experiencing on her laptop (which is newer than my old desktop) from the start.

 

So, our joint conclusion is this... The issue seems to stem from the game design, for certain abilities on certain classes. But, it is also likely that the lack of character responsiveness is exacerbated by hardware induced latency on older machines. New hardware helps in SOME cases, but definitely NOT all.

 

Just the observation of two experienced MMO players, on three different computers, trying four different classes/roles (a mix of melee tank & DPS, and caster heals & DPS).

 

Edited out my response, apologies... I thought you were the same poster and kept claiming its fine on a new computer.

 

 

Forgive me!

Edited December 30, 2011 by Xcore

[MemphisDawn]

Didn't read the entire thread so apologize if asked and answered.

 

I understand the issue the OP is bringing up .. but what I have issue with the things that happen "just prior" to my animations. Example; using Force Charge the MOB takes damage before I even get there... and they die before I actually connect at the end of the fight.

 

It is probably a symptom on the issue being discussed, I just wanted to add or clarify it.

 

Thanks!

[Xcore]

Didn't read the entire thread so apologize if asked and answered.

 

I understand the issue the OP is bringing up .. but what I have issue with the things that happen "just prior" to my animations. Example; using Force Charge the MOB takes damage before I even get there... and they die before I actually connect at the end of the fight.

 

It is probably a symptom on the issue being discussed, I just wanted to add or clarify it.

 

Thanks!

 

I "think" this might be unique to gap closing abilities... perhaps to prevent the WoW Warrior Charge issue etc. (please correct if wrong)

[ArkonPhoenix]

It would be nice if you could simply queue the next move (and have a queue indicator of some type) without a 0.5 or 1 second restriction.

 

In addition, make the mouse be hardware driven and not software (game) driven, this was an option in SWG that worked wonders.

[Digitalpossum]

Edited out my response, apologies... I thought you were the same poster and kept claiming its fine on a new computer.

 

 

Forgive me!

 

No apology necessary.

 

Essentially, the short version of my post is... A new computer helped my gameplay, but as my girlfriend was able to demonstrate, it did NOT resolve the fundamental issue that we're discussing here.

[Chaneo]

just cancelled my account with reasons as these...

[Xcore]

Update to Original Post

 

Updated: 12-29-11'

 

-- Added Georg Zoeller's response from Page 123

-- Added New Quote from Poster Reedful from Page 109 (Professional Gaming Experience, very harsh but stunningly accurate post of the problem at hand in PvP)

-- Added Update Date at top of Post

-- Added other friendly notes on Thread # and Page #s etc.

 

 

If you have any ideas how to make the OP more streamlined let me know, I'm trying!

[Xcore]

Just did some more testing regarding responsiveness.

Made a clip showing my Priest in wow, and a clip of my Sith doing the same move.

 

 

It feels like swtor is like me, a little bit slower than the rest of the world (of warcraft).

 

PS. Addons might not be such a bad idea? Quartz with latencytimer. Love that addon.

 

Adding this video to OP, very valuable...

 

To everyone able to showcase these issues in videos, please do so... it is very valuable.

[allocater]

I don't know if anybody has mentioned it already, but one important aspect of responsiveness is SOUND.

 

And it is also easy to implement I would imagine and will help a lot until the underlying issues are resolved. What I am talking about is:

 

-a sound when an action is blocked because the GCD is running

-a sound when a spell-cast is canceled.

-a sound when an non-instant action is blocked because the char was moving

 

WoW has as GCD block sound the 'clonk' and as a spell-fail/cancel sound the 'whamm'. So you intuitively, subconsciously know exactly what happened and what didn't happen and you can act accordingly.

 

SWTOR has none of these sounds.

[bvalley]

This issue is under active investigation.

 

The complication is that there are actually a number of different issues with very different causes and potential resolutions lumped together in this thread.

 

All we can say for now is 'we are actively working on the topic of character responsiveness'.

 

Thank you for your response! I look forward to hearing more from the development team on this issue.

[Xcore]

I don't know if anybody has mentioned it already, but one important aspect of responsiveness is SOUND.

 

And it is also easy to implement I would imagine and will help a lot until the underlying issues are resolved. What I am talking about is:

 

-a sound when an action is blocked because the GCD is running

-a sound when a spell-cast is canceled.

-a sound when an non-instant action is blocked because the char was moving

 

WoW has as GCD block sound the 'clonk' and as a spell-fail/cancel sound the 'whamm'. So you intuitively, subconsciously know exactly what happened and what didn't happen and you can act accordingly.

 

SWTOR has none of these sounds.

 

I don't want to bring sound issue and details into this although I agree with your general sentiment.