Wildcat Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 My guild last night tried to go into warzones in an organized fashion, with 7 of us, formed in a RAID group. All of us in voice chat, so we can actually TRY to run a warzone as a disciplined group, not a bunch of cats running around randomly targeting people (as is typical). Alas, no mas. SWTOR won't allow you to queue up as more than a group of 4. This is utter nonsense. We SHOULD be able to go into warzones as a guild. Or at least as an organized group of 8, in voice chat. Either that or cut them down to 4 on 4 instead of 8 on 8. The system as it is now is utter nonsense, and will eventually be ignored as people will get sick of being randomly stuck with idiots who run around like mad, don't take orders, and generally hand victory to the enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlaid Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Making up half the team as a premade gives you plenty of people to do everything you described. It just ensures that premades don't get a FREE ride against pugs by virtue of voice chat and prior organization. I wouldn't be surprised if once rated warzones come out (or something that supports premade vs premade more) they disable premade pugs completely. But, if you want a way around that....just have everyone queue at the same time over voice chat. Then tell everyone who didn't get the queue to enter chat in vent so it puts a C next to their name. If you see no C's, everyone takes the queue. If not, you drop queue and try again until everyone gets the queue pop. That's how you premade without premades, if you really want to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Libertine Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 yeah...im with you...more PUG farming = more fun for everyone...oh, wait... its fine the way it is ... imagine playing hutball vs. an ops group of 8 lvl50s vs. a mix of lvl10-50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Repefe Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 And who would you be fighting ? Unorganized pugs with no chance of beating you ? Just wait for rated war zones. BW stated they are coming and you will be able to joind them as raid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haralin Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 (edited) If they do that, the Bgs will be not full, all casuals will leave PvP cause loosing against an 8 men guild group is just frustrating. Edited December 28, 2011 by Haralin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcat Posted December 28, 2011 Author Share Posted December 28, 2011 (edited) If they do that, the Bgs will be not full, all casuals will leave PvP cause loosing against an 8 men guild group is just frustrating. Why? If your guild doesn't have 8 people in it, is it really a guild? Keep in mind this wouldn't prevent people from queuing up individually. Also, there is nothing casual about PVP. If you FORCE PVP'ers (and PVP is my endgame activity of choice) to deal with random "casual" people in our warzones, you might make the random casual happy (as long as they are happy getting melted in match after match) but you tick off the dedicated PVP'er. I thought the whole point of playing on a PVP server was to be able to PVP vs other PVP'ers, not be forced into clown car matches! Edited December 28, 2011 by Wildcat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcat Posted December 28, 2011 Author Share Posted December 28, 2011 (edited) M But, if you want a way around that....just have everyone queue at the same time over voice chat. Then tell everyone who didn't get the queue to enter chat in vent so it puts a C next to their name. If you see no C's, everyone takes the queue. If not, you drop queue and try again until everyone gets the queue pop. That's how you premade without premades, if you really want to do it. We tried that too. Unreliable. And, again, a dumb game mechanic. Why should we have to queue and re-queue until all 7-8 of us are in the same warzone? Isn't that just bad system design? Also, PVP only works WHEN IT IS ORGANIZED. When people can be told what their role is, who they are to shoot, who they are to pass to, etc. Random running round is plain silly. Also, expecting nothing out of HALF your warzone force isn't exactly going to get you much. We're able to do flashpoints and heroics as a guild. Why can't we also do warzones? Edited December 28, 2011 by Wildcat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverspar Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 We tried that too. Unreliable. And, again, a dumb game mechanic. Why should we have to queue and re-queue until all 7-8 of us are in the same warzone? Isn't that just bad system design? Also, PVP only works WHEN IT IS ORGANIZED. When people can be told what their role is, who they are to shoot, who they are to pass to, etc. Random running round is plain silly. Also, expecting nothing out of HALF your warzone force isn't exactly going to get you much. We're able to do flashpoints and heroics as a guild. Why can't we also do warzones? Nope, it's not bad game design. It's to keep people from being steam rolled who aren't in a guild. Premades have always been the bane of getting people interested in PvP. Rated Warzones are coming, there you can queue against other organized groups to your hearts content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaskaszh Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 As has probably already been pointed out; the current system is to prevent 8-player premades from steamrolling newbies and PUGs. Or, if that's not the direct reason...it sure is a wunnerful side-effect. When I played WAR, if you were PUGging it, you knew right away when you were up against a premade; they reacted exactly as you described. Organized, well-oiled, and utterly dominant. In other words; not fun at all. PUGs literally wound up spawn camped. I'm sorry you can't play with more than 4 of your friends at once, OP, but consider that it makes PvP a heckuva lot more fun for a lot of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlaid Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 We tried that too. Unreliable. And, again, a dumb game mechanic. Why should we have to queue and re-queue until all 7-8 of us are in the same warzone? Isn't that just bad system design? Also, PVP only works WHEN IT IS ORGANIZED. When people can be told what their role is, who they are to shoot, who they are to pass to, etc. Random running round is plain silly. Also, expecting nothing out of HALF your warzone force isn't exactly going to get you much. We're able to do flashpoints and heroics as a guild. Why can't we also do warzones? Why? Using your logic you should expect nothing from the ENTIRE opposing ream if they aren't running a premade. Having to run half a premade actually makes you have to use a bit more coordination since you can't just rofl stomp pugs with an 8 man premade. The alternative might be that premades only get to fight premades and sit through hour long queues. Because honestly, as someone who ran countless premades across several MMO's for the last 10+ years.....it's never even remotely close against even a premade of casuals. It's almost always too much coordination and "getting each others backs" for a pug to compete with. You want COMPETETIVE PVP right? Not...steamrolls? Full premades would not be competetive, it would just make it impossible to enjoy some PVP if you don't have a premade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcat Posted December 28, 2011 Author Share Posted December 28, 2011 Nope, it's not bad game design. It's to keep people from being steam rolled who aren't in a guild. Premades have always been the bane of getting people interested in PvP. Rated Warzones are coming, there you can queue against other organized groups to your hearts content. Then what you are telling me is that PVP'ers who play on PVP servers are supposed to put up with random noise in order to PVP. Which will result in the warzones emptying faster than allowing us organized PVP. I can accept your point, on the PVE servers. But the rules should be different for PVP ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaskaszh Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 We're able to do flashpoints and heroics as a guild. Why can't we also do warzones? That's easy; because doing flashpoints and heroics as a guild will not ruin anyone else's game in any way. Constantly crushing PvP PUGs as a guild, however, will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathHenk Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Why? If your guild doesn't have 8 people in it, is it really a guild? Keep in mind this wouldn't prevent people from queuing up individually. Also, there is nothing casual about PVP. If you FORCE PVP'ers (and PVP is my endgame activity of choice) to deal with random "casual" people in our warzones, you might make the random casual happy (as long as they are happy getting melted in match after match) but you tick off the dedicated PVP'er. I thought the whole point of playing on a PVP server was to be able to PVP vs other PVP'ers, not be forced into clown car matches! Organised group vs. Pug is won by organised group even before the game started. That is why there is no big qeueuing for pug pvp. If you have played WoW you know what I'm talking about. People do not like and will afk when they see the system is putting them on a disadvantage. Just wait for rated warzones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haralin Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 (edited) Why? If your guild doesn't have 8 people in it, is it really a guild? Keep in mind this wouldn't prevent people from queuing up individually. Not every Guild is a PvP Guild. You will lose mostly all casuals in BGs and this is much, the waitingtime will be much higher as now cause none want to form a group over 30 min. For me it will be ok but the Bg PvP will lose people. Edited December 28, 2011 by Haralin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverspar Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Then what you are telling me is that PVP'ers who play on PVP servers are supposed to put up with random noise in order to PVP. Which will result in the warzones emptying faster than allowing us organized PVP. I can accept your point, on the PVE servers. But the rules should be different for PVP ones. PvPers who want to PvP shouldn't need to worry about a full group. The noise is coming from the fact it's blatantly obvious you just want to steamroll pugs. This isn't an unfair game mechanic, this is an actual good design to at least give people a chance to actually PvP who don't have a guild or are just getting into the game instead of always running into the brick wall team, as happened regularly in WoW on many servers. I'm sorry you don't like it and think it is unfair, but life is not fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcat Posted December 28, 2011 Author Share Posted December 28, 2011 Not every Guild is a PvP Guild. You will lose mostly all casuals in BGs and this is much, the waitingtime will be much higher as now cause none want to form a group over 30 min. For me it will be ok but the Bg PvP will lose people. I'm playing on a PVP server. If you are a guild on a PVP server, and you aren't a PVP guild, why did you choose THAT server, especially when the PVE ones are less likely to have long queues to log in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcat Posted December 28, 2011 Author Share Posted December 28, 2011 Organised group vs. Pug is won by organised group even before the game started. That is why there is no big qeueuing for pug pvp. If you have played WoW you know what I'm talking about. People do not like and will afk when they see the system is putting them on a disadvantage. Just wait for rated warzones. This is a serious question: Why would you WANT to PVP when NOT in an organized group?!! My PVP background: SWG (we had a constant open guild war on Bloodfin that lasted YEARS), and EVE. Yes, I know that TOR does not have as much open PVP as either of those games, but seriously, NO organized PVP AT ALL? Unacceptable! Keep in mind that not all of us came to this game from WoW, or have any idea HOW WoW does such things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverspar Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 I'm playing on a PVP server. If you are a guild on a PVP server, and you aren't a PVP guild, why did you choose THAT server, especially when the PVE ones are less likely to have long queues to log in? Other way around. I know PvPers still believe everyone loves to PvP, but PvE servers are more likely to have a server queue than a PvP server. Secondly, not all PvPers join guilds. Thirdly, not all PvPers go in there to play warzones. In fact, there seems to be a big complaint about the lack of open world PvP. Finally, and personally, if you are a PvP guild, why are you doing warzones and not going out for world PvP? Warzones don't exactly hit my "PvP elite" meter very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scelerant Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 (edited) We tried that too. Unreliable. And, again, a dumb game mechanic. Why should we have to queue and re-queue until all 7-8 of us are in the same warzone? Isn't that just bad system design? Also, PVP only works WHEN IT IS ORGANIZED. When people can be told what their role is, who they are to shoot, who they are to pass to, etc. Random running round is plain silly. Also, expecting nothing out of HALF your warzone force isn't exactly going to get you much. We're able to do flashpoints and heroics as a guild. Why can't we also do warzones? Because the equivalent of you showing up with an 8 man group on vent, most likely all level 50, in PvP gear, probably using stims, heal packs and with a preplanned tactic against a pug, is like bringing a cannon to a fistfight. Hence why people tend to be ok with premade groups if they have their own queue where they only fight other premade teams. Pug rolling is a lot like being unemployed, sure its nice to have time to fix stuff in the house, the garden and get everything you've been putting off done, but soon it gets boring and lacks a challenge. I never saw the challenge of it all and those who like pug rolling are not PvPers they are for the lack of a better way to put it, people with very little skill who cannot handle a leveled playing field. Its fine in PvE because by organizing a group you do not increase your enjoyment at the cost of other people's enjoyment. In my case, I want to fight other premade groups because that's where the challenge is, outplaying an equal opponent. Edited December 28, 2011 by Scelerant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaskaszh Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 I'm playing on a PVP server. If you are a guild on a PVP server, and you aren't a PVP guild, why did you choose THAT server, especially when the PVE ones are less likely to have long queues to log in? How about PvPers who chose a PvP server but don't want to be in a guild? They're PvPers, legitimate...but they still end up in PuGs. I'm one of those. I play WZs strictly to kill other players and (hopefully) win the objectives. I couldn't care less about being in a guild. I'm sure I'm not alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirchuck Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Organized groups steamrolling pugs in pvp is exactly why I quit pvp in Rift. I'm having fun in Star Wars pvp because it's actually competitive. I wouldn't have a problem with the devs setting up a seperate que for premade groups but to allow premades for the general que would ruin pvp for the majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shortcake Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 (edited) No, im sorry, you cant farm pugs with premades. why dont you go solo ? dont answer, we know why Edited December 28, 2011 by Shortcake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHRISGG Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Anyone who needs a full premade to beat pugs is the type of idiot you're describing. Don't blame your pugs when it's your premade dragging them down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 OMG! Don't any of you have more than 3 freaking friends?! This is a STUPID limit in an MMO! We're a guild. We're friends. We sure as hell weren't going to "steamroll" anyone, we simply wanted to play as a group rather than solo. Win or lose, we didn't give a flip, we simply wanted to do them together. The 4 person limit is fine for heroics and quests, but foolishly low for warzones. I understand the concern of "premades", but...isn't that what MMOs are about? Playing with people you know/enjoy? There should be a way for groups of more than a 4 to PvP in warzones together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFishes Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Unpopular response: Make we who form up as ops groups wait longer... Institute a single line of code that makes premades of >4 have to wait til another team of >4 queues up... Then fill in the holes with pugs... Just saying, I wouldn't mind waiting another 5 minutes or so for a queue pop if I was able to play with the people I want to play with... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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