and btw, time for some more fun math! expertise reduction does NOT negate the expertise dmg increase, it goes above and beyond... NON expertise math: Tom and Jerry have no expertise... Tom Hits Jerry for 1000 dmg Jerry takes 1000 dmg Expertise version: Tom and Jerry have a 10% expertise slide Tom hits Jerry for 1100 (1000 + 10%) Jerry takes 990 damage (1100 - 10%) YAY! There actually is a benefit to the reduction from expertise! (This would have been obvious to the free thinkers out there, but many people have been posting how expertise has no effect in end game and only helps you kill new 50's) Math is good...

absolute truth, but we are used to that, and we're getting to reduce 10% of that 10% incoming damage while we're healing for 10% more then we used to... BUT... Once again, We're healing more then we did with non expertise gear, while negating the damage bonus from the opponent's expertise with our own... So, victory!

Dear "People who say I can't pass because I'm stunned!", Did you pick the ball up in the middle? Think you can make it to the endzone yourself, don't you...? You can't, and every second you hold onto the ball, you'll be swarmed by more and more (up to 8) defenders... Get the ball, pass it up to the cat walk, run towards the opposing team's endzone but stop in range of the person who currently is holding the ball, he/she/bot has resolve by now, and will be looking forward to you for a reception... IF: ...you see defenders ahead of you, pass laterally to a teammate who is not defended. ...you do not see defenders ahead of you, run to endzone. FIN

Hello fellow healers... Are you having a bad day? Need a pick-me-up? Want to feel like a god? Well here you go! Have you ever thought about the fact that in about a month, when everyone has all their pvp gear, we're the only ones who will actually benefit from expertise!?!?!? Think about it... Larry, Moe, and Curly all have (X) amount of expertise... Larry is an Assassin Moe is a Marauder Curly is a Operative Healer Larry, Moe, and Curly all reduce incoming damage by (x/y)... Larry, Moe, and Curly all Increase outgoing damage by (x/y)... Curly increases healing by (x/y)... Larry hits Moe for dmg + (x/y) - (x/y) = dmg Moe hits Larry for dmg + (x/y) - (x/y) = dmg Moe hits Curly for dmg + (x/y) - (x/y) = dmg Curly heals self for dmg + (x/y) = dmg + (x/y) In a world where (x/y) is a uniformed, constant equation, Curly is the only one benefitting because Curly is the only one not having his dmg/healing reduced at the same rate it goes out... Damn it feels good to be a healer... /spanked

And one more thing... I don't see them addressing this, so everyone start now on grinding bags as best you can! I so very much wish I could captain a team I've picked based on skill and not "gearscore..." Thanks WoW for revolutionizing the world of MMO's straight into the toilet!

Now, I'm not saying this to stir up forum drama, attract trolls, or stroke my own (very observant) epeen, but......... Has anyone thought about the effect Expertise will have on rated Warzones? One must assume that in a normal, sane world, greater ranking would denote greater skill... Now I, for one, am pretty durn well geared out for PvP. I have a face pwning (not really since I'm a healer) amount of Expertise, and My well geared team roll people in Warzones because of it. But I am really curious to see if people start taking skilled gear into WZ's on their premades instead of skilled players. I have a bunch of people I have played with for years that are exceptional PvPers, but for whatever reason (RNG, a late start to the game, a reroll) they aren't well geared out. I know for a fact that some of them are better players than others I currently run with that have *Epic* amounts of Expertise gear. So I guess the question is this... "Is Bioware going to address the fact that because of the game system of Expertise, their upcoming 'pvp ratings' will mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in terms of skill and teamwork. Rather, it will give you a wall of statistics as to who deserves congratulations on your server for being the luckiest with RNG..." I'd love to see Bioware disable the Expertise stat in rateds, but then it'll be all about who has ground out the best pve gear... /sigh I hate paradoxes... E.P.

Flawed statement is flawed... A game should not be about grinding, or "the grind..." For those of you who are unemployed or 15 years of age, "The Grind" is what we refer to as going to work everyday 9-5... Wait a minute, I know there's a comparison there... But where could it be? Show me an MMO that eliminates the grind beyond leveling, and I'll show you the most successful MMO ever! SWTOR did it with professions, now what about PvP? Why couldn't we have a system for gear that maybe includes no RNG? Like, "Trade 5 Champ bags in for a guaranteed piece of gear of your choosing? Are you willing to risk a bag by opening it then?

@ballisticbob Actually, I'm only missing 2 PvP pieces (boots and 1 implant) and I'm just a community conscious poster... I have little to no PvE gear because I work and can't make raid times (I think I have 4 pieces)... So, Lawyered... /thanksforplaying

ding ding ding!

Read the post, this is addressed... Thanks for playing!

This was mainly because in Vanilla WoW, the Grand Marshall gear was put in around the time that MC was the biggest deal... As raid gear went forward, GM gear stayed the same. And it also has to do with the fact that there was SOOOO much unnecessary Stam on PvE pieces... Just a thought...

Except the expertise stat is allowing too much of a disparity between players who are all pvpers... And while I am myself a PvP hardcore player, I don't think people should be completely unable to play pvp (ie: be farmed by me for valor) if they don't have the expertise gear, and sadly, many of the PvEers / Casuals I talk to say they have stopped PvPing all together because it's impossible to compete on ANY level... Just a thought though... Look at DAoC (revered as best PvP game ever) and Warhammer (while it had a flawed game, the PvP system was well laid out...) as examples... Wait a minute, didn't BW have the Mythic team helping them create this game? How then did we end up here?

AND THE MOON LANDING NEVER HAPPENED!!!!!!! Now let's all pick up our pitchforks and follow this guy to slay the frankendevs... /saluteyourfailure

-------------TL;DR VERSION-------------- Expertise if Flawed math, math, math, math, opinion, opinion, math, math... Fast, easy fix to Expertise: add Exp total to End for survivability and eliminate Exp math, opinion, opinion, opinion, math... Have a look at set bonuses and make them more geared toward PvP or PvE respectively math, opinion, opinion... Signature

So I've been reading the posts on this forum for a long time now, and when you filter out the "Nerf <class that killed me> NOW!" threads and the "I R in PvP, PvP R bad, unsub" threads, there are some genuinely good ideas in here. That being said, I wanted to cover the most commonly addressed topic that people who actually want to discuss the systems bring up. Starting with... Expertise is both in theory and practice a flawed system... Almost everyone on the forums would agree with this, but VERY few people have taken the time to actually ask why... Here's what it comes down to: Expertise was implemented, I can only imagine, because the developers wanted to differentiate between PvP and PvE gear. The issue that arises is that PvP is all about putting out enough damage to kill the opponent while simultaneously having enough survivability to outlast said opponent... Objectives aside, that's what it's all about. Now when you add expertise to the mix, you get a natural imbalance of power based solely upon gear (which is based solely upon luck thanks to RNG gearing) and a bad taste gets left in everyone's mouth. So how do we fix it? Expertise, while I admit the intentions behind it were good and could be used to pave the road to hell, needs to go... It's as simple as that. My suggestion is that the PvP gear itemization is looked at in a light where instead of a new "PvP specific" stat is included, the normal stats are reworked on the gear in a more pro-PvP way. Now you may be asking yourself... So what does that even mean? Here it is, and I'm going to use the two top set chest pieces in game to illustrate my example... Sorry this is from a healing standpoint, but that's the first place my mind goes... Rakata Force Mystic Robe (PvE) 105 End, 122 Will, 48 Crit, 51 Alacrity Battlemaster Force Mystic Robe (PvP) 92 End, 94 Will, 50 EXP, 48 Crit, 51 Alacrity Looking at them side by side, I happen to see it plain as day what needs to happen... First: Take the PvE gear and swap 10% of the Endurance value into the primary stat value Second: Take the Expertise bonus from the PvP gear and switch it to flat endurance Third: Take another look at the set bonuses that were thrown on last minute... By making this fix, the stats on the gear would read as follows: Rakata Force Mystic's Robe (PvE) 94 End, 133 Will, 48 Crit, 51 Alacrity Battlemaster Force Mystic Robe (PvP) 142 End, 94 Will, 48 Crit, 51 Alacrity Now, looking at this as I'm typing it, it's obvious that the PvP gear slightly outweighs the PvE gear (yes, I'm doing this math while I'm typing this) so a further suggestion would be to normalize the Endurance/Primary stat differential... ie: bring the PvE Primary stat up to 142, or drop the PvP End down to 133... Assuming a normalization of 1:10 for endurance, the PvP gear (if End is dropped to 133 to normalize) stands at an extra 390 HP than the PvE gear, and the PvE piece has an extra 39 Willpower on hit, making your heals hit far harder and thus, allowing force consumption to go way, WAY down during nightmare operation boss fights. Now the next question people will have: What's to keep dps from using the PvE gear in PvP, and tanks from using the PvP gear in PvE...? Simple as these 3 basic truths: 1 - If people want to be glass cannons (Max front end damage w/no survivability whatsoever) then nothing's going to stop them, but right now, expertise is allowing them to be "Iron Cannons" where they are maxing their output AND getting survivability... 2 - RNG keeps telling me "this is the gear you're going to get, DEAL!" This will slightly decrease the number of people complaining about RNG not getting them the gear they want because there is a second avenue to get gear. Now this gear will not be optimized for PvP, but it won't be the 100 steps backward from the people that have their full battlemaster sets. People will rush through to get PvE gear, and after about a week of seeing great numbers in yellow, but crap on the scoreboard due to 1.5k deaths, they will strive harder to advance their pvp gear set and not rest on PvE gearing... Basically, see basic truth #1! 3 - TAKE A LOOK AT YOUR SET BONUSES BIOWARE!!!!!!! Really, who was the genius who put a bonus to consumption on a PvP based set. Now, there will be a few instances where Consumption needs to be used to maintain a LONG battle in open world PvP (if that ever gets fixed), but 9/10 times, sage/sorc would benefit far more from something like "resurgence has a reduced cooldown," or "dark infusion's cast time is reduced by .5 seconds..." Not terribly game breaking, but a bit more useful than a consumption bonus... Making the 4 piece bonuses worth it is what keeps people from running 2 and 2 from their sets... And on that note, make the 2 and 4 piece set bonuses on PvE gear damn near necessary to doing the top tiered content. (PvP and PvE weapons that have procs on them would go a long way in helping with this... So there you are, my 18-35 cents... Take it for what it's worth, but frankly I think this would be a MUCH better system than what we have in place... Emperor Punjab <Dastardly>, Tarentatek Master Ghoti <Parjir Darasuum>, Death Wind Corridor More sense on other topics to follow in other threads, I have a long day at work ahead of me...

sub-50 HP has a flatline normalization in Warzones... Basically, you have the same approximate HP as that level 11 that's getting bolstered to your level... So, yes, get to 50 if you want your gear to matter...

With the potential of soon to be rated Warzones, I was just wondering what class spread everyone was going to use on their teams... Personally: Advanced Class ------------- Spec Sorcerer ----- Heal Sorcerer ----- Maddness DMG Juggernaut ----- Immortal Powertech ----- Adv Prototype / Shield tech hybrid Assassin ----- Either DPS tree Mercenery ----- DPS (more than just Tracer Missile) Operative ----- DPS Operative ----- Heal Juggy / DPS sorc are our ball running team (force charge/pull/sprint/intercede) Powertech will roll with the other healer and ranged for the purposes of guard swapping. this will cause murder...

STOP POSTING ABOUT THIS STUFF!!! REALLY!!! plzkkthx

Working as intended... The tank trees aren't meant to do damage, they're meant for survival and in pvp specifically they're quite good with harrassment and control... If you want to play a tank in pvp, deal with the fact that you aren't going to top damage charts, find a healer buddy, guard him, and roll around the WZ with him. Or, grab a huttball, run a huttball...

As a courtesy to Zaodon... By your logic, I believe you must be a poorly skilled player. Please take note of your forum signature. Your inability to succeed in this game is directly correlated to the number of pages you've posted in the past. Bioware has, in fact, confirmed that in a long line of unskilled players, they have some semblence of proof that you are the lowest scorer in all available data categories. Please accept my humblest thanks as I have learned much from you and will not be posting on these forums henceforth... Regards, Mr. Incomprehensible (I believe that's what he was getting at, but I couldn't really hear him above all the Meth)

LIAR!!! You said you wouldn't look at this post again!!! All of your arguments, no matter how invalid and lacking in proof, are now defeated as you cannot stick to your convictions...

The ledge goes all the way around to the sides... I was talking more up that side... I know if you pull the ball carrier up and across the goal line he croaks, but next time your in a huttball, hang a right and follow the ledge all the way around to the side before you jump down... that's where I'm talking about...

As we all know that Huttball will most likely be the first WZ to have "rated" play implemented into it, and we all know that the most devastating weapon in competetive pvp play is the game itself, Here's something that came to mind... Situation: You have your 8 man premade huttball team in a match, but within the first 2 minutes of the game, you realize you're well out-matched on gear. Because you have a sorc/sage juggy/guard combo on your team (as every team will), you've managed to fastcap a score while the other team wasn't looking... It's now 1-0 in your favor, and you want the win because rating/points are everything... Smart money says don't risk it, and you already know BH's can pull targets up into the spawn area to a horrible gorey end. You think to yourself "hmmm, I woner if that's a two way street..." Here's the QUESTION: Has anyone tried/experimented with fast capping, then passing the ball back towards your side, and having a juggy intercede or a sorc pull up the ball carrier into YOUR OWN spawn area...? If this is possible, I'd be willing to waste 15 minutes to keep the rating up depending on how good the rewards are... remember, Gerrada encourages CHEATING!!! Discuss~

Yes, all you see is Lightning, Lightning, Lightning... BECAUSE BIOWARE GAVE US THE SAME ANIMATION FOR 7 DIFFERENT ABILITIES!!!! /rageplay (far more effective than /ragequit) People who call for nerfs RARELY need to Learn to Play... Rather, they should read over and learn the class they are crying about because it's typically not as cut and dry as they first percieve it... Classes are balanced, stop complaining...

Are you all still going to keep posting about these things after the patch? For one more day, still relevant... so /bump!