It probably is. My entire point throughout this thread has simply been to point out that most (generalizations are your friend) modern day MMO gamers are entitled, immature (in their behavior anyways), self-centered and self-important, and don't really know what they want in a game. I haven't seen anything yet to change my mind.

Among other things, it's the notion that they are special little snowflakes. Their opinion is beyond reproach, and terribly important, just like they are. Also, people who leave MMOs seem to feel the need to "punish" the developer who made the game that so disappointed them, and for them, the best way to do that is to make sure everyone else is unhappy and leaves the game too. Just leaving and not contributing their monthly subscription fee to the developer anymore- voting with their wallet, as they like to say -isn't enough.

Erm...yes, that's quite sad heh. But I can understand your point about bad design and so forth being the cause of many people leaving MMOs early. But if SWTOR is, as you say, well-polished enough to avoid the general "We're leaving early!" effect that poorly designed MMOs have, then I'm just curious as to what the problem might be.

If someone wants this or any other game to succeed and are just trying to voice their concerns in the hopes of improving things, they don't loosely throw around terms like "utterly broken" and "bug ridden" and "complete joke" as you'll often see in these posts. I cannot understand why people are unable to see the difference. "Excuse me, waiter? Yeah no offense but I ordered my steak rare, and this is well done. Plus, it's supposed to be served with garlic mashed potatoes and I got fries. Could you see about getting this fixed up please? Thanks." ...is quite different from... "Hey, s**t-fer-brains!!! What the *** is this??? I ordered my steak rare...R-A-R-E, dumba**!! You guys oughta take the word "steakhouse" off all yer advertising cuz you clearly don't know how to cook a steak. I bet you think steak comes from fish, right? Man this place is gonna go under so fast, I'm personally gonna make SURE everyone hears about how retarded you are. I'm going back to Burger King, at least they use the right animal." Both people have the same concern. One comes off as a normal human being, and the other comes off as your average forum-going MMO gamer. I'll let you guess which is which.

3 to 4 hours per day isn't remotely the average. Ask all the married couples, parents with kids, and professionals with demanding day jobs how long they play per day. If it hits 2 hours, I'd be really surprised.

Comments in red.

*woooooooosh* If you can find a single thing I posted in this thread to support your statement, I'll apologize to you. Unfortunately I already know you won't be able to, because yet again...you're one of those gamers I keep referring to. You know, the entitled, self-important, immature ones. Still, please go ahead and try to find something I wrote in this thread stating that I'll blindly accept whatever is put in front of me by game developers, including Bioware. Go ahead, I'll wait. It could actually prove entertaining.

Yes it is, and I know it. However, I am quite pleased that I at least don't appear to be some adolescent throwing a tantrum and making plainly unrealistic and childish demands and assumptions when I deliver my opinion, which is the point they're all missing. It's not really the message they're delivering that makes them the negative force they are in gaming; it's *how* they deliver it.

*Applause* If you want a really succinct explanation to amaze your friends: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

I agree completely. It's why I originally stated wayyyyy back in my first post in this thread that gamers nowadays are generally immature, self-important, entitled, etc etc etc... They create false expectations in their own minds, and when said expectations aren't met, they go way overboard in their criticisms and attempts to "punish" the [insert derogatory term here] developer who "lied" to them.

...ArcheAge.

This is because 12 million+ players first discovered MMOs by playing WoW...and will simply not accept that an MMO can exist which doesn't feel exactly like WoW. But...they also want something better, because they are tired of WoW. But...when it launches, it better have an auction house, and a cross-server queue, and all the amenities and gizmos and doodads of WoW. But...it has to be new and innovative, too. Just not too much. Now really, how is any game developer supposed to satisfy someone whose stated "perfect game" is so clearly defined?

Think really hard and ask yourself the following when you're next disappointed by an MMO (any MMO, not necessarily SWTOR); are you sure it's the gaming company that built the game up to be this incredible, innovative, genre-busting game? Are you sure they didn't provide years' worth of coverage indicating it would pretty much be yet another themepark-style MMO, but with minor differences...maybe voiced-over questing and a personal storyline? Are you sure that all the things you were expecting weren't things you were hoping for, but which the gaming developer never, ever came out and promised?

Yet more evidence of what I'm stating R.E. gamers in general today. Gamers have always been consumers by simple virtue of the fact that we buy games. That makes us consumers automatically. Also, you use two of the modern gamer's favorite words; broken and useless. Every single MMO made in the last 10 years, including WoW, has been called broken and useless by the gaming community at some point, but if you just stop for one moment, you quickly realize that SWTOR isn't broken because 1.7 million people play it. Since it's not broken and 1.7 million people are playing it, it is by extension not useless. Gamers have to stop tossing words around that have nothing to do with their complaints. Finally, these two statements need to be memorized by MMO gamers as a whole: 1- No MMO has ever been made which did not launch in a bug-ridden state. 2-No MMO will ever be made which will launch in a bug-free state.

Your problem is that you're too level-headed, rational, and consistent to be taken seriously by anyone who's bound and determined to make certain that their side is right...

...because your average gamer is immature, self-important, etc etc.... I truly appreciate all these people making my point for me though (not that it really needs much proving since Penny Arcade's "GIFT" theory was postulated).

Actually, I was responding to a previous poster who wondered if the general gaming community had changed somehow in recent times. He in red, me in green... Quote: Originally Posted by Genkin Kinda makes me wonder. People have put up with far worse and even now tout how awesome it was. Has the gamer nation as a whole turned into such wusses? Your typical gamers nowadays are entitled, self-important, generally immature (at least as far as their public persona goes), unrealistic, and have no idea what they want out of a game. This isn't a troll or "rude behavior", it's just what I notice on a regular basis. My post had exactly nothing to do with the bloggers, their comments and dislikes about SWTOR, "fanboyism", or anything else beyond "Has the gamer nation as a whole turned into such wusses?" I'm therefore still at a loss to understand why I'm an "insecure fanboy" just because I posted my opinion of what gamers are like nowadays.

Again, you prove my point for me. My point, by the way, isn't "SWTOR is the greatest game ever made!". My point is "Gamers today are mostly an immature, self-important, entitled lot who complain first and don't even know why most of the time". I have no stake in SWTOR's long term success or lack of it. I could care less. My ego won't shatter and my life won't lose its meaning should the game underperform down the road. I play it; I didn't make or fund it, so I could care less how it performs. I fail to see how any of the above makes me an "insecure fanboy" but, since you're a clear exmplae of those gamers I'm talking about, I guess you clearly see this as a "Me versus you" thing, and you absolutely need to be right.

Yes it does. My point is that WoW is a poor reference for making MMOs nowadays (from a developer's point of view), but it's the only point of reference for millions and millions of gamers who were first exposed to the MMO genre by playing a game which simplifies the genre to its most basic expression. It should also be noted that the people stating "WoW didn't have this and that at launch" are also people who most likely entered the genre with WoW.

You're pretty much proving my point for me. Your saying that anyone who says the game's all right and fun to play has to be a "fanboy" or "Biodrone" (two obviously disparaging labels). Why? Different people like different things. Are you saying that SWTOR is so incredibly bland, boring, buggy, and shoddy that anyone claiming to enjoy it is somehow stupid or blind? Are you saying that since you believe it is, everyone else has to as well? That's rather immature and self-important, if you ask me. I'm ok with people not liking the game, just like I'm ok with people liking it. I'm just not ok with extremists at either end of the spectrum.

I have no idea why you feel so hostile about what I wrote; it's true. It was clearly shown recently with the Jennifer Hepler insanity. SWTOR is no worse than any other MMO out there, and far far better than most. And yet, all the complaints tend to boil down to "In WoW, you..." or "WoW does this instead of...". As I said; your average game nowadays is immature, generally disrespectful, and doesn;t have a clue of what he or she wants out of their games. All they know how to do is complain. Furthermore, it has nothing to do with SWTOR; it has to do with this exact, same pattern playing out on the message boards of every single solitary MMO released in the last, say, 5 years. I've played them all. All. Every last AAA MMO released in the last 10 years, even WoW (for about 34 levels before I gave up out of, yes, boredom). This cycle has played out on the message baords for every one of those games, but it has really ramped up in the last 4-5 years.

I should also point out that the bloggers' main problem with SWTOR is fairly obvious; it's not World of Warcraft. On several occasions, they bemoan SWTOR in direct comparison to WoW, but they never compare SWTOR to any other MMO (except once compparing it, negatively, to Warhammer Online and DCUO). Anyone whose first MMO was WoW is going to feel this way about any game released. In fact, since WoW hit the market, can anyone here name one single MMO which has "made it"? No? That's because you have 12+ million MMO newbies who got into the genre with WoW and who have no other real point of reference. Every MMO they play gets compared to their first love, and fails, be it AION, WAR, DCUO, STO, Champions Online, DDO (until it went F2P), EQ2, Auto Assault...*all...of...them*. It isn't that WoW is such an awesome game, because it's just not. It's a simplified MMO-with-training-wheels which took the genre's best (Everquest, Asheron's Call and DAOC) and made it accessible to the masses with simplified graphics and gameplay. it's just that all these millions of ex-WoWers want all MMOs to be WoW 2.0, and nothing else at all will satisfy them.

Your typical gamers nowadays are entitled, self-important, generally immature (at least as far as their public persona goes), unrealistic, and have no idea what they want out of a game. This isn't a troll or "rude behavior", it's just what I notice on a regular basis.

An entire video of some drama queen comparing SWTOR to a game released 8 years ago. Sad. EDIT: Oh and, for all of you who spout inanities like "SWTOR has been in development for X years, so they had all that time to fix the bugs and get it polished like WoW is today", ask youselves this... 1- How long has Guild Wars 2 been in development? 2- Do you really think Guild Wars 2 will release without bugs? 3- How long do you think it will be before all these WoW apologists start calling them "FailNet"? Sorry, WoW fanboys, but you really need to get over the fact that MMOs existed before WoW, and that not everything WoW has done (like their PvP model, for example) is an improvement. WoW PvP is utter, puerile garbage and it needs to rot and vanish from the gaming landscape. The sooner the better.