Sith Inquisitor and Jedi Consular Changes

[Darth_Advent]

Just give sorcerers a tanking discipline already. We know you wanna.

[RuivonKyn]

If Force Lightning is removed from Assassin that means Tank will not be able to use Depredating Volts,which replaces Force Lightning in its Darkness Discipline Tree, then Depredating Volts should be given to Sorcerer, Lightning Discipline,instead and have it replace its Force Lightning.

 

Its an awesome abilities for Sorcerer to have and it have great animation too. :)

[Kai-Del_Serromis]

Jedi Consular

Sage

Coming from Knights of the Fallen Empire, we felt the that the Sage was in a really good place and so they aren’t receiving a whole lot of changes this Update. One big change that we made with Fallen Empire was to work on increasing the overall mobility and survivability of the Sage. Additionally, we really wanted to separate the Sage as a ranged class from that of the Shadow. To accomplish that goal, we are making the following changes:

• Phase Walk: Removed from base class. Now Sage exclusive.
  
• Mind Crush: Removed from base class. Now Sage exclusive.
  
• Telekinetic Throw: Removed from base class. Now Sage exclusive.
  
• Double Strike: Removed from base class. Now Shadow exclusive.
  

 

Each Advanced Class is receiving a new suite of Legendary Utilities, here are some of the Sage’s:

• Swift Rejuvenation: Restoration grants Swift Rejuvenation, making your next ability with an activation time activate instantly. The effect cannot occur more than once every 30 seconds and lasts for up to 15 seconds.
  
• Valorous Spirit: Force Mend increases damage reduction by 15% for 6 seconds. Reduces cooldown of Force Mend by 5 seconds.
  
• Impeding Slash: Lash the target with your lightsaber, dealing weapon damage and immobilizing it for 3 seconds. When the immobilization effect ends, the target is slowed by 50% for 6 seconds. Replaces Saber Strike. 15 second cooldown.
  

 

Are you serious? SERIOUS!? You're taking THE most mobile of all the classes and making it even more mobile?* I have mained the Sage/Sorc since right after release, the class has NEVER been this powerful; that or I sucked at the time. There are only two classes that can even threaten a knowledgeable Sorc: PT and Op. Why are you making us even MORE durable? I get you had to because of the changes to all the other classes, but I've looked at those too. It's like you guys wanted to make them all able to take down a Sorc and then overdid it, so you had to give more to the Sorc.

 

I swore I'd always play this class through hell and high water because I love the caster class in this game so much, but come on; don't get even more ridiculous. Please listen to the feedback given in all these threads on class changes; we play this game far more than the devs do.

 

*I say it's the most mobile because PW puts it WAY ahead of the Operative.

[Iona_Var]

 

Assassin

After giving every class some additional mobility in Knights of the Fallen Empire, we felt that Assassins were left a bit too mobile. So with Knights of the Eternal Throne we have reduced some of the Assassin’s mobility while simultaneously enhancing their identity as a powerful, stealthy melee class.

• Thrash: Now granted at level 1 as an Assassin exclusive.
  
• Lightning Charge: Now a passive buff.
  
• Guard: Now available at level 16. No longer requires Dark Charge.
  
• Dark Charge: Removed from Advanced Class. Now granted as Discipline passive in Darkness.
  
• Phase Walk: Removed from base class. Now Sorcerer exclusive.
  
• Reaping Strike: New ability for the Deception Discipline. High damage single-target skill on a 15s cooldown that is usable from stealth or within 15 seconds of landing a critical hit.
  

 

Each Advanced Class is receiving a new suite of Legendary Utilities, here are some of the Assassin’s:

• Reaper’s Rush: Phantom Stride grants Reaper’s Rush, allowing your next Assassinate to be used on any target, regardless of remaining health. Reaper’s Rush lasts for 10 seconds. Additionally, if the target of your Phantom Stride is killed within 10 seconds of using Phantom Stride, the cooldown of Phantom Stride is reset.
  
• Renewing Darkness: When entering stealth with Force Cloak you generate a stack of Renewing Darkness and heal 4% of your maximum health every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. Stacks last for 6 seconds. When stealth is broken, each stack of Renewing Darkness heals you for 4% of your health.
  
• Retaliatory Grip: Deflection grants Retaliatory Grip, reflecting 50% (or 100% for the Darkness discipline) of all direct single target tech and Force damage back at the attacker for 12 seconds. Does not absorb incoming damage.
  

 

 

I really don't see how assassins and shadows having phase walk makes them too mobile. In 4.0 the cooldown on force speed was increased to compensate for gaining phantom stride. Now that phasewalk is being taken away from assassins/shadows will it's cooldown be reduced? Especially since deception/infiltration so heavily relies on using phantom stride for the 2(3 with utility) static charges so for them to use ps just for mobility is a dps loss.

[Lowarro]

Thrash: Now granted at level 1 as an Assassin exclusive.

 

 

Level 1 Assassin? is this a typo or an unannounced change. (Currently you can't be an assassin until level 10).

 

Also as mentioned in at least half the comments I'm seeing here, removing phase walk from assassins is a really bad move.

[wildantics]

Level 1 Assassin? is this a typo or an unannounced change. (Currently you can't be an assassin until level 10).

 

Also as mentioned in at least half the comments I'm seeing here, removing phase walk from assassins is a really bad move.

 

Yes, the way they are releasing information is just confusing people even more. Remove core abilities... Replaced by?? Ravage as an example a.. I think most anything that was a cast is gone... Etc

But to directly answer... At the character select screen... Or maybe as soon as you spawn on a planet at level 1...

You can then pick an advanced class. (or maybe are forced to)

[Asaxor]

Sins/Shadows mobility is so hilariously bad that I stopped playing it in PvP. In the same timeframe you can do force-speed once and shadow stride once a marauder can do 2x force jump, 1 x super-pred (for 10s also breaks roots, speeds entire grp, lul) and 1x bladeblitz.

 

The "developers" of this game kinda "feel" shadows are too mobile. Like, for realsies. They can feel it in their plums. It's about feelings now, rational thought need not apply. Of course, it kinda defies reality because everybody actually playing this game agrees that shadows/sins RIGHT NOW WITH PHASEWALK STILL INTACT have the worst mobility among all melee specs. Probably to make up for the fact they're the squishiest melee class with less DR than a sorc and less burst than maras, burst jugs and burst PTs.

 

Eric, those feeling developers - did somebody sheeit in their brain? Like, literally, opened the skull, took a dump?

You sure all of them have the correct number of chromosomes? The guy who comes up with this awesomeness must be the same guy who thought that forcing PvPrs to PVE or else they won't get equip was a great idea because "it will improve q times."

:it's a mystery:

 

Those developers are truly beyond all hope, it's like they're actually working hard on pissing off as many of the remaining players as possible so they can finally switch off the servers.

[Jedi_riches]

Yes, the way they are releasing information is just confusing people even more. Remove core abilities... Replaced by?? Ravage as an example a.. I think most anything that was a cast is gone... Etc

But to directly answer... At the character select screen... Or maybe as soon as you spawn on a planet at level 1...

You can then pick an advanced class. (or maybe are forced to)

 

I have seen 'elsewhere' this info and it appeared that a level 1 will work like a new 60 creation ie straight to advanced class, that's why they are moving stuff like thrash to assassin only as with the removal of Base classes there is no more need for 'shared' abilities to level 10.

 

Just to ask a question re sorcs /sages can you confirm that you are NOT nerfing any of the abilities because again other info has nearly all sorc abilities being nerfed by 2-10% which is not leaving them in the good place that you mention.

 

I would much rather hear this information from yourselves though.

[aghori_Jedi]

Sins/Shadows mobility is so hilariously bad that I stopped playing it in PvP. In the same timeframe you can do force-speed once and shadow stride once a marauder can do 2x force jump, 1 x super-pred (for 10s also breaks roots, speeds entire grp, lul) and 1x bladeblitz.

 

The "developers" of this game kinda "feel" shadows are too mobile. Like, for realsies. They can feel it in their plums. It's about feelings now, rational thought need not apply. Of course, it kinda defies reality because everybody actually playing this game agrees that shadows/sins RIGHT NOW WITH PHASEWALK STILL INTACT have the worst mobility among all melee specs. Probably to make up for the fact they're the squishiest melee class with less DR than a sorc and less burst than maras, burst jugs and burst PTs.

 

Eric, those feeling developers - did somebody sheeit in their brain? Like, literally, opened the skull, took a dump?

You sure all of them have the correct number of chromosomes? The guy who comes up with this awesomeness must be the same guy who thought that forcing PvPrs to PVE or else they won't get equip was a great idea because "it will improve q times."

:it's a mystery:

 

Those developers are truly beyond all hope, it's like they're actually working hard on pissing off as many of the remaining players as possible so they can finally switch off the servers.

 

this! ......developers r clearly shoe makers or tile layers as best. (with no offence at those professions ).but clearly some1 is not qualified here ..they clearly tried some class for 10min and decided what should or not stay in game...who is the genius behind these changes, like we should know who is .and make him a special golden rankor mount dedicated exclusively to him...the rankor will b holding a toilet brush in 1 arm to show the real profession of the dude :D:D

[Axist]

How are they improving sorcs mobility I don't see any mobility gains...

[Kirtastropohe]

I honestly have no idea how BW thinks these changes are going to do anything but hasten exodus from the game. Taking phase walk away from the class that got it first is a huge insult, especially in light that they've totally screwed up the intents of classes. Shadows were meant to hit hard but be squishy. Guardians were meant to be durable but not hit hard. Look at damage outputs these days, the other classes now hit as hard as we do, but we still have squishiness.... at least phase walk gave us a chance to recover. Now, we don't have that. To leave it with the class that will already be miles away from the fight is just insult to injury.

 

I think the damage nerf will also be painful.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Kirtastropohe

[Kirpputori]

So, the goal for 5.0 was to make assassins useless?

 

Guess i'll need to delete my sin and roll a sorc or merc

[Aniajan]

I have mained a Shadow / Assassin since picking up the game shortly after RotHC. Played Tank and DPS in Ops and later in PvP. I have all but given up on that class though.

 

Ever since 3.0, you have taken away range on our abilities, diameter on our AOEs, changed our mechanics to make us fight more and now you are going to completely **** up our mobility.

 

As of right now, we are pretty much dogsh*t DPS in PVP without our escapes.

As of right now, we are completely undesirable as DPS in endgame PVE.

 

As tanks, we are currently in a decent position in both PVE and PVP. But we are far from the most desirable class and can only be successful through cheezing mechanics (PVE) or playing as quasi DPS (PVP).

 

What in the world makes you believe, that taking away mobility is improving the overall situation of the class vis a vis the other classes in the game?

 

Are you adding to our DPS potential, particularly sustained single target damage for Hatred/Serenity and burst for Deception?

 

Because if you don't, you don't seem to have even the slightest idea about the meta in PVP and the desirability of certain classes in endgame PVE. Which tbh seems the most likely case and doesn't surprise me at all given your history of bad decision making in dealing with your player base.

[Lillythiel]

Tanks need mobility. Stop taking it away. At LEAST give tanks back the old Force Speed cooldown if you're going to be set in this ridiculous decision.

Do not take phase walk away. Please leave it the way it is. That skill is incredibly useful to shadow tanks. There is literally no reason to remove that skill. I would recommend a thorough reconsideration on removing the skill. I vote leave the skill as is.

Yes, the speed bonus was 'very useful', but it wasn't really balanced. It gave shadows a huge - and IMO unfair - advantage. First of all, the maximum distance of 60m was traversed in a blink of an eye, which is a huge advantage over any speed bonus, especially if you can fortell a boss mechanics. You can avoid harmful AoEs (Master/Blaster), you can place voids more efficiently (Revan) and you can instantly get out of harms way (getting out of range or blocking line of sight). Especially the last point isn't what tanks are suppose to do.

 

And let's compare the remaining abilities that provide a speed bonus:

 

Vanguard:

Storm - Leap attack (15s CD)

Hold the Line - 35~80% speed boost over 6~10s (35~45s CD)

Transpose - switch position after a short activation time (90s CD)

 

Guardian:

Force Leap - Leap attack (15s CD; maybe lower)

Guardian Leap - Leap (15~20s CD)

Blade Blitz - more than a 150% speed boost and ~1s duration (result = 20m) (45s CD)

Focused Freedom - utility; 50% speed bonus for 6s via Combat Focus (45s CD)

True Harmony - utility; 50% speed bonus for 10~20s via Enure (60s CD)

 

Shadow:

Kinetic Accelleration - utility; 50% speed boost for 9s via Project (18s CD)

Force Speed - 150% speed boost for 2~2.5s (25~30s CD)

Shadow Stride - Teleport + 3s speed boost (30s CD)

Motion Control - utility; 50% speed boost with your in-combat re-cloak (90~120s CD)

 

So if you ask me, the Shadow tank isn't in a bad position!

 

Yeah sins are too mobile (operatives are not. yeah... )

No phase walk for sins (sorcs really need it because of... yeah... )

So let's also add the speed bonuses of Scoundrels // Operatives.

 

Scoundrel:

Holdout Defense - utility; 50% speed boost for 3s via Blaster Whip (6s CD)

Scamper - 12m roll (10s CD)

Trick Move - Teleport + 3s speed boost (45s CD)

Flee the Scene - utility; 50% speed boost for 6s with your in-combat re-cloak (90s CD)

 

So for me, it looks like Holdout Defense is similar to Kinetic Accelleration; Scamper similar to Force Speed; Trick Move similar to Shadow Stride and Flee the Scene similar to Motion Control. Scamper is less precise // less controllable, so it has a lower cooldown than Force Speed. On contrast, Trick Move has a higher cooldown instead. And in my opinion, that's fine. Scoundel's have a higher rotational demand to stand behind a target in order to use Back Blast (has a cooldown). Shadow Strike on contrast is optional in regard of a rotation (doesn't have a cooldown).

 

Phase Walk for Sages makes a bit more sense. A long-distance teleport provides them with a gap-opener to counter the existing gap closers.

 

I play balance, remember? Now its called Serenity.

 

You took from us Shadow Strike, OK you moved it to infiltration but now you have a shadow without shadow strike... You removed project from us as well... You buried back then our dps leaving us out of ops (seriously all you guys play, if you play the game at all in ops, is all classes but shadows?

You can still use Shadow Strike with every spec, even Serenity. Serenity just doesn't receive a situational boost anymore (attack from ahead [Kinetic Combat]; higher damage, lower cost [infliltration]). Serenity gets one for Spinning Strike instead. And that skill deals more damage and has a lower force cost right away.

 

So in my opinion, there are too many complains about the wrong aspects. In my opinion, I would have hoped for other improvements.

 

Kinetic Combat

Harnessed Shadows is unnecessarily complex. If forces a player to delay Cascading Debris that went off cool down, just for the sake of up to 4% damage reduction. And the same is true for Kinetic Bulwark which is resetted as soon as you use Kinetic Ward. This forces a player to keep track of the tiny numbers in a cluttered list of buffs for the sake of keeping the +8% absorb bonus for as long as possible. What a nonesense!!!

 

Infiltration

IMO, there's absolutely no reason why 'Whirling Strike' produces charges of Clairvoyance... and why the devs haven't replaced it with 'Shadow Strike' instead.

(It's a mystery to me, why the devs didn't separate Force Breach into three separate skills, making them discipline-specific)

 

Serenity

Well, well. If you ask me, Shadows and Sentinels should have been sub-classes of the same base class (linking Guardians and Sages together instead).

 

The "third" discipline of both Shadows and Sentinels would have then granted each side with a life-leech alternative to heals (Serenity could have been a sort of Vaapad lightsaber combat style). Without a Sage variant, there wouldn't have been a necessity to focus this discipline on AoEs, damage-over-time effects, ranged attacks or skills with an activation time. Force in Balance f.e. could have been an emanation around the user, sapping the energy // life force of all nearby enemies. Skills like Focused Defense or utilities like Zealous Ward (Sentinel) would have been really cool & flavorful for this class.

 

But as it is right now, making both the cooldown of all the active skills and triggered resets more equalized would already do the trick.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Lillythiel

[D_a_r_t_hA_l_e_x]

First off, I think that the decision to remove Phasewalk from Assassins is a mistake. While I used it in NiM raids on my Sorc often, I don't think that Sorcs really needed it to begin with. Assassins, especially Deception, need Phasewalk for mobility.

 

With that being said, I really want to talk about Sorcs here. This is the design problem with Sorcs at the moment. They are getting too tanky for PvP which is making them too strong. At the same time, because of how strong they are, their dps is either left alone or nerfed. With 4.0, Sorc dps was in a terrible state for raiding. Sorcerer specs should be able to hold their own in dps with Mercs and Snipers, but that is just not the case. Madness is in an abysmal state right now, and Lightning isn't any different. Part of the problem is that I think the dps spread is too big. If you want Sorcs to be in a healthy state for this game, then their utility needs to be nerfed, but their damage needs to be buffed. For instance, Corrupted Barrier is super strong in PvP, while pretty much useless in PvE. I suggest cutting the healing from 2% to either 1% or .5%. Additionally, put Phasewalk on a longer Cooldown. On the other hand, buff the dps of the classes to make them more competitive. Sorc dps just aren't desired because they are so weak right now that you have to be really good at it to make it work. As far as mobility goes, Sorcs have it really good already. Giving us more mobility just makes us more of a utility pick than an actual dps, and that just doesn't work in NiM because certain dps is required, and it is too good in PvP.

 

Everyone always talks about nerfing Sorcs because they are too strong in PvP. I think that these claims are often exaggerated but not unfounded. If you really want to balance Sorcs properly, then nerf their utility, and buff their damage. Madness should do equal damage to Virulence and Innovative Ordinance. It also needs some rotational help, because the rotation is a mess right now when it comes to Force management. Lightning should do equal damage to Arsenal (I didn't say Marksmanship here because that needs a buff as well). I've played this class in the most difficult content in this game. Please listen when I say that you are going about this the wrong way in order to make this class healthy.

 

As a side note, I think that Sorc healing is in a really good place right now and should be left alone. If the utility is nerfed as I suggest, then they will become less oppressive in PvP. Though judging by the changes to Mercs, they are going to be the oppressive ones now as far as healers, and maybe even dps, are concerned.

 

/signed ^^

[teclado]

Assassin

After giving every class some additional mobility in Knights of the Fallen Empire, we felt that Assassins were left a bit too mobile.

You are wrong on this point. Other than Phantom Stride, Sorcs have the exact same mobility tools as Assassins do. A ranged class has the same mobility tools as a melee class. The melee class SHOULD be more mobile. Phase Walk was originally exclusive to Assassins, and it makes sense for them to keep it. If you want to take Phase Walk away from somebody, take it away from Sorcs.

 

I don't think you can deny the dominance of Sorc healers in Season 7 Ranked. Part of the reason for that dominance was Phase Walk. It's an extremely powerful anti-focus tool that can even be used while incapacitated (stunned). Combine that with Force Barrier (also usable while stunned) and you get Ranked healer dominance. Meanwhile, what anti-focus tools did Merc Healers have that could be used while incapacitated? Nothing. Do you see the problem here? Apparently not...

 

Here's how I would rank mobility of all AC, with this PW change:

1. Operative (Exfiltrate, Holotraverse)

2. Marauder (Leap, Mad Dash, Predation)

3. PT (Turbo Hydraulic Overrides, Jet Charge, Translocate [tank spec])

4. Sorc (Force Speed, Phase Walk)

5. Assassin (Force Speed, Phantom Stride)

6. Jugg (Leap, Mad Dash)

7. Merc (Hydraulic Overrides [only usable in combat], Rocket Out)

8. Sniper (Covered Escape)

Edited November 8, 2016 by teclado

[UTlNNl]

You can avoid harmful AoEs (Master/Blaster), you can place voids more efficiently (Revan) and you can instantly get out of harms way (getting out of range or blocking line of sight). Especially the last point isn't what tanks are suppose to do.

 

Playing a giant lumbering wall standing around getting punched in the face is what Juggernauts are for. It used to be considered a good thing when different classes played differently. Assassin tanks have always been the class for working through or around mechanics, rather than just taking them to the face with your pick of one of a million DCD's.

 

 

Shadow:

Kinetic Accelleration - utility; 50% speed boost for 9s via Project (18s CD)

Force Speed - 150% speed boost for 2~2.5s (25~30s CD)

Shadow Stride - Teleport + 3s speed boost (30s CD)

Motion Control - utility; 50% speed boost with your in-combat re-cloak (90~120s CD)

 

If Kinetic Acceleration was in the skillful tier, and not masterful, then it might be used by PvE tanks in some fights. Having uncontrollable speed fluctuations is not ideal, even if they are somewhat regular.

 

You cannot use Motion Control as a PvE tank for any kind of meaningful mobility. If you are using Force Cloak, you aren't tanking. There are some fringe cases where Force Cloak is useful as a tank to break mechanics, but never for mobility.

 

Shadow Stride is horrifically buggy. Even if it did land you next to your target as consistently as Force Leap does, it was just further homogenization between Juggs and Sins when they added it. I didn't like it when it was added, and I still don't. The other two tanks have leaps, and it was good when we were different. I'd happily give back Shadow Stride to be able to quickly move exactly where and when I want with Force Speed and Phase Walk.

 

But since we're already going to be losing an entire mobility ability, we should get our old Force Speed CD back so we don't have to rely on utilities that we either can't afford to take or simply can't use and an ability (which I can't remember really anyone asking for in the first place) that's a 50/50 gamble that we'll get thrown into the air or simply go no where at all.

Edited November 8, 2016 by UTlNNl

[Ariyena]

I just don't get it. Why do you take Phase Walk away from Shadows/Assasins? In my opinion this is the most ridiculous class change made. For the hope of preventing this change coming with 5.0 let me explain.

 

Your argument for taking PW away is based on the assumption that shadows are too mobile. As a melee class it is vital for the shadow to stay on target. So let's compare the shadows mobility to the other melee classes. (List in spoiler tags)

 

 

Shadows:

 

- Force Speed: Increases the users movement speed. Cooldown (CD): 30 seconds (25 if specced into)

- Phantom Stride: Teleports the user to an enemy. CD: 30 seconds

It's usefulness is unfortunately hindered by the fact that it bugs out pretty often (Not teleporting at all, being stopped midway by bumpiness on the ground or even getting stuck in bosses (e.g. tanks in explosive conflict)). Furthermore for the deception discipline it is a rotational ability and therefore can't be used as a gap closer without sacrificing dps (dps as a shadow isn't even great to begin with, but that is a different topic)

- Phase Walk: Teleports the user to a preassigned location. CD: 45 seconds

This ability has been the shadows trademark since level 51 (well, until sages got it too with 4.0). It's use has always been somewhat strategic, placing it in locations you will need to get fast to in near time. This is most true for PvE situations, but also for PvP, where it can also be used defensively for escaping your opponents.

- Utility Misdirection: Increases movement speed by 15%.

- Utility Kinetic acceleration: Activating project, psychokinetic blast, Mind Crush or Vanquish increases movement speed by 50 % for 9 seconds. Internal CD: 18 seconds.

 

 

Sentinels:

 

- Force Leap: Jump to an enemy. CD: 15 seconds

- Blade Rush: 20 meter gap closer: CD: 45 seconds

- Transcendence: Increases the movement speed of the entire group by 50 % (80 % if specced into) CD: 30 seconds (if specced into) or 30 stacks of centering

- Force Camouflage: Increases movement speed by 50 % (or 70% if specced into) CD: 45 seconds

- Utility Force Fade: Increasing movement speed by 15 %.

 

 

Guardians:

 

- Force Leap: Jump to an enemy. CD: 15 seconds. It's CD will be reset when using Force Push. Furthermore the utility Battlefield Command reduces it's CD by 1 second every 1,5 seconds when attacked.

- Blade Rush: 20 meter gap closer: CD: 45 seconds

- Guardian Leap: Jump to an ally. CD: 20 seconds (15 if specced into)

- Utility Focused Freedom: Combat Focus increases your movement speed by 50 %.

- Utility True Harmony: Enure increases your movement speed by 50 %.

 

 

Operatives:

 

- Scamper: Gap closer 12 m. Can be used twice before going on CD for 10 seconds.

- Trick Move: Teleport to an enemy or an ally. Furthermore increases movement speed by 75 % for 3 seconds. CD: 45 seconds

Same as the shadows phantom stride it bugs out pretty often.

- Utility sneaky: Increases movement speed by 15 %.

- Utility Holdout Defense: Using Blaster Whip or Bludgeon increases movement speed by 50 % for 3 seconds.

- Utility Flee the scene: Disappearing act increases movement speed by 50 % for 6 seconds.

 

 

Vanguards:

 

- Storm: Storm to an enemy. CD: 15 seconds. Furthermore if specced into the utility Blitz, the movement speed is also increased by 30 %.

- Hold the line: Increases movement speed by 30 % (75 % if specced into). CD: 35 seconds (25 if specced into)

- Utility Battlefield training: Increases movement speed by 15 %.

 

 

 

So with this nice list (put into spoiler tags to save space and which took me a while to put together) let's have a few arguments:

 

- Every melee class has a gap closer with a CD shorter Force Speed Force Speed (the shadows gap closer with the shortest CD)

- Save for guardians every melee class can spec into a utility that increases the movement speed by 15 % - so no advantage for the shadow in comparison over other melee classes

- Every melee class can spec at least into one utility that gives other skills a movement speeds bonus or increases the already existing bonus of a movement skill (shadows/vanguards 1, sentinels/guardians/scoundrels 2) – again I can see no advantage for the shadow over other melee classes

- In fact when counting the number of total gap closers shadows together with guardians and sentinels (and I'm not counting force camouflage which movement speed bonus is just a nice plus to its defensive capabilities) have one more gap closer than other melee classes (shadows/sentinels/guardians 3, operatives/vanguards 2). This is somewhat compensated by the fact that the shadows gap closers have the longest CDs. And when looking at the deception discipline you can't really count phantom stride as a gap closer.

 

So to summarize: Sentinels and Guardians are the most mobile by having the most movement skills and utilities including a movement skill with a short CD. Vanguards have the least movement skills and utilities.

To be fair, Sentinels and Guardians need to be in 4 meters range for the most of their rotational abilities, Vanguards can use the most of their rotational abilities within 10 meters range. So this ranking is kind of valid. Shadows and Operatives are in the middle ground, but both have rotational abilities which can be used within 10 meters. So in my opinion the overall mobility of the melee classes is pretty balanced.

 

I am mainly a PvE player. I love tanking nightmare operations with my shadow. Phase Walk is a great asset for shadow tanks in boss fights. It is super versatile having repositioning, evading or kiting capabilities. I would really hate to lose it. And while this is not a class balancing argument, phase walk really fits the shadows theme of a sneaky force user.

 

So dear developers if you read this: Please reconsider this change. Or give me a more detailed explanation why you feel the need to take PW away from shadows. And when you're at it, explain why sages get to keep it. I didn't even touch this subject, others have already written enough about it.

[ZeroTypeR]

So...no more tanky assassin/shadow in dps spec (Dark Charge), thx EAware, thx a lot . Oh and of course, no crushing darkness/forgot the name for pub, great, that's perfect .

 

I suppose i'll just have to adapt, because there's no way I'm getting rid of my favorite class due to some... unsurprising nerfs.

Edited November 8, 2016 by ZeroTypeR

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I just don't get it. Why do you take Phase Walk away from Shadows/Assasins? In my opinion this is the most ridiculous class change made..

 

 

I agree, Assassins should have kept phase walk and sorcs lose it. It seems more in line with an Assassin [who has to get quick in and quick out]. Killing sorcs a good deal of the time is extremely difficult and time consuming, phase walk just makes them all the more harder to kill for many opponents.

 

Assassins should definitely keep phase walk, and i say this despite the fact that I HATE Assassins heh.

[keidgen]

Wow. Just wow. For the first time in all the years I spent with swtor, I`ll be ranting on forums))))

 

Sins neither had top dps nor top survivability in my experience. But they were fun to play because it involved tactics, timing and predicting the other classes (or other sins) a little. Those precious moments when you double-cc the unsuspecting and plant the bomb were worth dying for. Saving your healer but getting to him in a right time, or pulling the enemy away AND quickly getting back? Great. Turning a losing Civil War into winning one by capping in a right moment, while the enemy team is foolishly running around? Priceless. When they introduced PW it was great. And I never minded them giving it to sorcs either. Common, those who were clever enough to use it wisely were good enough without it anyway. Like those GOD HEALER sorcs every server has and we all know and lovehate - they were quite unkillable with or without PW. Suckers sucked anyway. Besides, Phase Walk was never about SPEED. It was about positioning and knowing the map and mechanics and having fun in doing so. Like, for example, outrunning an operative (or worth - op-combo) that grabbed the huttball? Not a chance in hell. Cleverly positioned Phasewalk gave you a CHANCE to PREDICT them and knockback. Solo guarding and no one comes to help? Great way to annoy the enemy team for a longer period. We played it. We utilized it. We have tactics and stunts based on it. And now it`s gone?!

 

Then again, I normally play in a good team and yes, I could make due without PW. Nothing is impossible if you love the class and don't mind a challenge. But you can't just strip away things because you "felt so". I don't scream that BW should nerf operatives because I feel that they are too fast. Enable me to fully play my class the way I like it, with the things you have already given me, that`s enough. Thank you very much.

 

As a tank sin who mainly focused on guarding the nodes, supporting the team and doing objectives... well goodbye, SWTOR. I survived this game`s changes since beta and made it through all the server merges, but stripping the fun out of my favorite class I can't handle.

 

Quoting my friend, soon BW will be like:

5.1 We felt that sorcerers still lack survivability. Sorcerers are granted stealth.

6.0 We felt that sorcerers are not stealthy enough. Stealth is now sorcerer exclusive.

 

Cheers.

[mdahm]

Do not take phase walk away. Please leave it the way it is. That skill is incredibly useful to shadow tanks. There is literally no reason to remove that skill.

I think this last sentence is very funny. Can only be written by someone who only plays PVE, and no PVP at all.

It's very easy to find dozens of threads stating that phase walk is a major exploit in PVP. Due to bad coding that lead to crippled mechanics, it's also exploitable for sages/sorcs of course, so in my opinion the whole buggy ability should get overall dumped.

For PVE tanks, phase walk is a sad loss thou. But Bioware decided to get rid of class stances, so this is what happens.

Edited November 8, 2016 by mdahm

[Krazhez]

If only they could figure out how to balance pvp separately from pve... maybe one day.

[GeorgeWhite]

First off, I think that the decision to remove Phasewalk from Assassins is a mistake. While I used it in NiM raids on my Sorc often, I don't think that Sorcs really needed it to begin with. Assassins, especially Deception, need Phasewalk for mobility.

 

With that being said, I really want to talk about Sorcs here. This is the design problem with Sorcs at the moment. They are getting too tanky for PvP which is making them too strong. At the same time, because of how strong they are, their dps is either left alone or nerfed. With 4.0, Sorc dps was in a terrible state for raiding. Sorcerer specs should be able to hold their own in dps with Mercs and Snipers, but that is just not the case. Madness is in an abysmal state right now, and Lightning isn't any different. Part of the problem is that I think the dps spread is too big. If you want Sorcs to be in a healthy state for this game, then their utility needs to be nerfed, but their damage needs to be buffed. For instance, Corrupted Barrier is super strong in PvP, while pretty much useless in PvE. I suggest cutting the healing from 2% to either 1% or .5%. Additionally, put Phasewalk on a longer Cooldown. On the other hand, buff the dps of the classes to make them more competitive. Sorc dps just aren't desired because they are so weak right now that you have to be really good at it to make it work. As far as mobility goes, Sorcs have it really good already. Giving us more mobility just makes us more of a utility pick than an actual dps, and that just doesn't work in NiM because certain dps is required, and it is too good in PvP.

 

Everyone always talks about nerfing Sorcs because they are too strong in PvP. I think that these claims are often exaggerated but not unfounded. If you really want to balance Sorcs properly, then nerf their utility, and buff their damage. Madness should do equal damage to Virulence and Innovative Ordinance. It also needs some rotational help, because the rotation is a mess right now when it comes to Force management. Lightning should do equal damage to Arsenal (I didn't say Marksmanship here because that needs a buff as well). I've played this class in the most difficult content in this game. Please listen when I say that you are going about this the wrong way in order to make this class healthy.

 

As a side note, I think that Sorc healing is in a really good place right now and should be left alone. If the utility is nerfed as I suggest, then they will become less oppressive in PvP. Though judging by the changes to Mercs, they are going to be the oppressive ones now as far as healers, and maybe even dps, are concerned.

 

Agree with this one about sorcs. I really can't understand nerfing sorcs dps, dps-wise it's already behind other specs by a good ammount (talking about lightning here, not sure about madness because i don't play it). Being potentially the lowest-scoring dps while other ranged specs bath their blasters and rifles in chocolate is very dissapointing.

[Lillythiel]

As I've posted a list as well, let's see...

(I edited some points; But I hope I preserved your intentions)

 

Every melee class has a gap closer with a CD shorter than Force Speed (the Scoundrel gap closer has the shortest CD)

You have to distinguish them a bit more. There are speed bonuses, leaps and teleports. You'd therefore have to compare Force Leap or Storm with Shadow Stride, not Force Speed. The latter is more similar to a Blade Blitz..

 

Furthermore, you have to look at the applicability of a skill. Just imagine a Force Speed that pushes the player straight forward without any directional control and with no way to stop it early (like the Blade Blitz). If it would have a lower cooldown, which version would you prefer?

 

And last but not least, you'd also have to consider other class specifica not directly linked... Here, I talk about push & pulls, stealth, range, rotations, etc.

 

Later on, you mention that Guardians and Sentinels must be at a 4m range to use their skills. Yes, that's one part of it. But how about the other points? How about slowing the target or immobilizing it? How about sneaking your way to the target avoiding being shot down, stunned or pushed away?

 

Save for guardians, every melee class can spec into a utility that increases the movement speed by 15% - so no advantage for the shadow in comparison over other melee classes.

Guardian - Defense: Gets a 35% speed bonus if the Guard'ed target is attacked

Guardian - Vigilance: Gets a 15% speed boost via Shien Form

Guardian - Focus: Gets another 10m leap attack

 

Every melee class can spec at least into one utility that gives other skills a movement speeds bonus or increases the already existing bonus of a movement skill [...]

 

When counting the number of total gap closers together, shadows, guardians and sentinels [...] have one more gap closer than other melee classes (shadows/sentinels/guardians 3, operatives/vanguards 2). This is somewhat compensated by the fact that the shadows gap closers have the longest CDs.

Why would you count the number or look at the cooldown, but neither the duration nor the duration/cooldown ratio of these effects?

 

Vanguard:

Hold the Line: 6~10s duration | 35~80% speed bonus | 35~45s cooldown || up-time ratio = 28,6%

combined up-time ratio: 28,6%

 

Scoundrel:

Holdout Defense: 3s duration | 50% speed boost | 6s cooldown (Blaster Whip) || up-time ratio: 50%

Flee the Scene 6s duration | 50% speed boost | 90s cooldown (Disappearing Act) || up-time ratio: 8.7%

combined up-time ratio: 56.7%

 

Shadow:

Kinetic Acceleration: 9s duration | 50% speed boost | 18s internal cooldown || up-time ratio: 50%

Motion Control: ???s duration | 50% speed boost | 90~120s cooldown (Force Cloak) || up-time ratio: ???%

combined up-time ratio: >50%

 

Guardian:

Focused Freedom: 6s duration | 50% speed boost | 45s cooldown || up-time ratio: 13.3%

True Harmony: 10s duration || 50% speed boost | 60s cooldown || up-time ratio: 16.7%

combined up-time ratio: 30%

 

Sentinel:

Transcendence: 10s duration | 50~80% speed boost | 30s+ cooldown || up-time ratio: 30%

Force Camouflage: 4~6s duration || 30~50% speed boost | 45s cooldown || up-time ratio: 13.3%

combined up-time ratio: 53.3%

 

You see! Suddenly, you might come to a different conclusion about class advantages.

 

Furthermore, if you start counting the number of utilities, you'd have to check whether a specific class receives benefits that other classes have to 'buy' via utility points. (an example: Commando - Gunnery has a passive that adds a 70% slow to Full Auto. Other classes have to spend a utility to get a similar bonus).

 

And when looking at the deception discipline you can't really count phantom stride as a gap closer.

That's "tricky" to say the least. The Storm skill makes the next two Ion Pulse // Explosive Surge consume no energy for Shield Specialists (Vanguard). Does that mean, it doesn't count as a gap closer anymore because you could increase the energy management a bit to squeeze out a few % more damage? - I don't think so.

 

Or how about Force Leap generating 3 Focus? You could combine it with Blade Blitz to get away and jump back in. Does that mean, neither Blade Blitz nor Force Leap qualify as a valid gap closers because they could be abused to increase the theoretical max. DPS?

 

What about the 100% defense for 1.5s after activating Scamper? Not a gap closer anymore? What about a free-of-cost, instant cast Kolto Pack after using Scamper? It doesn't even consume Upper Hand... Or what about a Hightail it that either creates a 3s immunity to cc-effects or leaves behind bomblets?

 

And the same is true if someone states that a Shadow doesn't have a free stealth, because a Force Cloak can be used every 90~120s to reset the cooldown of Blackout for a better energy management.

 

You see, the list is endless and this type of argumentation kind of silly.

 

I am mainly a PvE player. I love tanking nightmare operations with my shadow. Phase Walk is a great asset for shadow tanks in boss fights. It is super versatile having repositioning, evading or kiting capabilities. I would really hate to lose it. And while this is not a class balancing argument, phase walk really fits the shadows theme of a sneaky force user.

And that's exactly the point.

 

All the points above prove that even without Phase Walk, the mobility of a Shadow is at least mediocre. But the existence of Phase Walk breaks it, no matter if it's PvE (avoiding voids, placing voids, interrupting line of sight) or PvP (denying opponents the kill in a better way than Force Cloak).

 

So let's find a compromise then:

I hereby suggest to remove the Motion Control utility and lower the cooldown of Shadow Stride to 15s, making it a fix 18m forward teleport [no directional control, no automatic target, doesn't break stealth], just like a Hightail It (Gunslinger).

Furthermore, the cooldown of Shadow Stride is resetted whenever the Shadow enters stealth or uses Force Cloak This way, it can be used twice in a row if times are tough, for a total dstance of 36m. (not exactly the 60m of Phase Walk, but still a teleport and still "fitting the shadows theme of a sneaky force user")

(you could do the same with Force Speed of course, but it wouldn't be a Phase-Walk-like teleport)

Edited November 8, 2016 by Lillythiel