You Guys Are Not Listening At All - Good Luck with the 5.0 Launch

[Gokkus]

Your stream today said you listened to the community and you will make the crates match the discipline. That is NOT what the community has been saying AT ALL. No one wants RNG.... No RNG... No random crates....

 

Yeah they have though, just not you. This is a great improvement which is completely lost on those blinded by visions of RNG doom and happen to overlook the fact that not EVERYONE is against this. BW is clearly working on improving the system based on player feedback. You know, actual feedback, which ranting and shouting about RNG is not.

 

At least in your other thread you try to actually add something to discussion. Maybe try not to be so trigger happy with the new topic button going forward.

[t-darko]

Your stream today said you listened to the community and you will make the crates match the discipline. That is NOT what the community has been saying AT ALL. No one wants RNG.... No RNG... No random crates....

 

You mention ripping mods out to make the set.. hate to tell you this, earpieces, relics, shields, focus and implants do NOT have mods. So, we are still going to have the RNG but now at least it will be discipline specific. Big deal. No one wants RNG at all!!!

 

What part of this are you missing? Raiding and PvP are going to be completely destroyed by what you are doing! You really, really, really need to consider what you are doing with this. It didn't work in 1.0, it didn't work with Battlemaster boxes, and it is not going to work this time.

 

Just for fun, count how many are posting on these forums, then figure out how many cartel pack they need to buy to keep turning this games revenue into profit, or nvm, this might come as a shocker; the majority of the playerbase are not on these forums, they are, luckily, in the game.

Edited October 21, 2016 by t-darko

[phalczen]

How is that good? Now the DPS Sage won't switch to heals because he doesn't want healing gear, he wants DPS gear...how does this help us?

 

1) If you are part of a dedicated raid team, and you are experienced with both roles, you're going to want to have both sets anyway.

 

2) If you're not part of a team, and you've been asked to switch roles in, say, a tactical flashpoint or SM op or whatever, and you don't have experience with healing, then either the content is too trivial to require a min/maxed optimized high tier set with set bonus to effectively heal, or bolster is adequate to help lower tier sets (or pre-5.0 sets) heal effectively.

 

As a byproduct of DvL event, I have a heal sage and a dps sorc, both with set boni from this expansion, in legacy gear. Now, imagine it is a story mode op post 5.0. If I am impside and my group needs me to swap to heals, I can do that. I send over the legacy gear, just like I do on live. I earn my CXP, and bolster will be helping me compensate for absolute stat differences between a 224 set and whatever item rating you get bolstered to in SM ops come 5.0 but I have a set bonus to boot. When the op is done, and I decide to start redeeming my crates, I swap back to a dps discipline and then open the crates. How is that prohibitive?

 

How is it any different from Live, when you have to wait to get to the vendor on the fleet to redeem your unassembled token for the piece you want?

 

I mean, I'm assuming that the Command Crates don't open as soon as you rank up. Their presence in an interface like the new pack opening experience implies that you control when you open them, and therefore will have the opportunity to swap back to dps discipline before opening them. I think its reasonable to infer that based on the two livestreams thus far.

[TX_Angel]

Just for fun, count how many are posting on these forums, then figure out how many cartel pack they need to buy to keep turning this games revenue into profit, or nvm, this might come as a shocker; the majority of the playerbase are not on these forums, they are, luckily, in the game.

 

Not according to what I see in the game, they aren't...

[joshuactsmith]

people complain all the time that the game is too easy, but now they add something in you find difficult or annoying and you cant stop complaining, it seems like your never going to be happy no matter what they choose, so either deal with it or just leave the game already.

[IanArgent]

I'm the same.. it's why I started my Alt collection to start with... sure it's gotten out of control now with 35 toons... but having to do this CXP thing with 35 toons will be a game killer for me.. rip alts

 

Also a little hint if you don't already do it. Set up you keybinds per toon and save them in your preferences... ie Jugg KB, Sorc KB

 

Going forward, new alts will get CXP as they advance through the story or participate in regular activities (unless they change the leveling speed, a subscriber is practically certain to hit level 70 before Ilum, meaning they'll start earning CXP on all that content (the Ilum FPs and the ones that come after, both "Knights" stories, etc.) For the existing alts, I'm hoping they do a conversion of crystals and comms to CXP at a decent rate, to help the people who would have already been earning CXP if this system had been in place. And that the speculation about command crate item modifications themselves not requiring c levels is true, or even that items in the command stash can be pulled across the legacy.

 

I don't really have any duplicate-dispicling characters yet, and at any rate, I'm a click to cast person, not a big keybinder. I use the basic numeric keybinds, and depending on the role or AC type, the bound keys remain the same. (spammable AoE goes on 3, AC's base heal goes on 2 if I have one, otherwise some kind of usefully spammable attack goes there, etc). Interrupt is always on ` though

[Wayshuba]

people complain all the time that the game is too easy, but now they add something in you find difficult or annoying and you cant stop complaining, it seems like your never going to be happy no matter what they choose, so either deal with it or just leave the game already.

 

I agree with the second adjective - annoying. It is not difficult by any means.

 

When people refer to the "difficulty" it is sarcasm aimed at the livestream which said that having different currencies was too complex, yet this system is more complex than the multiple currencies.

[curulz]

I think some of this is an overstep in what people were saying, "game is too easy", Folks have been asking for sliding scales on missions for some time. I think their answer was this new system. Seeing into the future, they saw the casual solo player saying they can't do the harder versions of solo mission w/o better gear, hence the new gearing system. Like most changes it lacked subtlety, only the sledge hammer.

 

RNG and Gear-n-a-Box may be OK for the casual player, but it hurts the more tenured players that have been conditioned to gaining gear in different ways.

 

Someone said elsewhere they probably didn't anticipate this amount of backlash. If so, then they are woefully out of touch with their customer base. A much simpler solution would have been to add GC and Gear-n-a-Box while leaving the current gearing system alone (or at least intact). You reward the casual player in a new way w/o negatively impacting the more tenured players.

[Quraswren]

Maybe I'm weird, but I'd just switch to one of my healing characters, rather than respec on the spot.

 

Then now you have a new porblem many wont be able to do. How much leveling did you do on that alt? Does he have the gear to support the content you're hitting?

 

Given the time it takes to get gear. The random nature of it how long will it take to have that second alt read? I'd wager a long time even on a discipline based system and not AC. So long, if you work on that tank set, you'll have little time to actually work on another toon much less switch specs and work on a DPS set.

 

So yea, if you have time for all that, you are a bit weird because I don't think many put in that much time these days.

 

Even in the same AC, I have wildly different placement of powers for "shared" powers, so I'm going to have to move around powers on the bars, pull stuff out of the powers pane, remember to regear properly, and then undo it again when I'm done. And, try not to cuss my muscle memory because 15 minutes go I was running the same character as a DPS instead of a healer. At least with another character, I have different visual cues, a UI configured for the role, possibly different keybinds, etc, etc.

 

Given how gearing is you wont have to worry about changing specs.

people complain all the time that the game is too easy, but now they add something in you find difficult or annoying and you cant stop complaining, it seems like your never going to be happy no matter what they choose, so either deal with it or just leave the game already.

 

Annoying yes. Difficult? No.

 

Want to make gamers happier? Remove the random nature of gearing at end game. Keep GC and the ranking system but put in the same token loot option. Allow gamers to choose what they need as they complete content. Not some random gear gambling mechanic.

 

There is nothing good about random gearing at this point in SWTOR and how we have been gearing for years. Random gearing is done to screw over the gamer and just add more time. IT's neither fun or entertaining, removes a gearing system that wasn't broken we have had for years and is just a cheap way for BW to stop you from getting what you actually want when you actually beat content.

 

Sorry, random gearing even discipline based is no good.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Quraswren

[TUXs]

Actually you're even more screwed because the system is character based. You'll need to go through this grind multiple times. Sad that they failed to address how alt-hostile this system is.

Exactly lol. Let him laugh though...I find it humorous how he thinks it's funny.

[Tsetso]

Exactly lol. Let him laugh though...I find it humorous how he thinks it's funny.

 

Well, seems you're one of the few that won't be bothered too much about it. How many commandos do you have, 20?

[TUXs]

1) If you are part of a dedicated raid team, and you are experienced with both roles, you're going to want to have both sets anyway.

Right...which is easier to get under the current system, far more difficult under the new one.

[Wayshuba]

My predictions if this goes live:

 

1.) Within a month of launch, BW will be dealing with an uproar that makes the stealth companion nerf look like a walk in the Sunday park. They already have it happening now and have decided, no matter what, they are going to ignore it even though a lot of players (read paying subscribers), and even MMO journal sites, are telling them just how bad an idea this really is.

 

2.) They are going to double down to prove everyone that they are right and players are wrong. Like they did in the v1.x era.....

 

3.) Withing three months, high level PvP and progression raiding will be just about completely dead.

 

4.) Within four months, the alarms will go up as subscriptions plummet as those raiders and PvPers go elsewhere for their fix.

 

5.) Within five months, they will announce a system similar to what we have in 4.0 but it will be too late and the damage will have been done.

 

As an added bonus, in January when they discuss "if group content might be coming" they will tell us they don't have anything to share yet but to tune in (and stay subscribed) for the May livestream.

 

In the end, for me personally, I am an MMO player. Our guild has been together through 5 MMOs and for 15 years. It will not be the first time, nor the last time, our entire guild moves on because MMO devs just can't seem to figure out the simple way to build a successful MMO is just to give MMO players what they want (and really avoid giving them what they don't want).

Edited October 21, 2016 by Wayshuba

[Tsetso]

In the end they'll nerf operatives and everyone will be happy.

[DanNV]

How is that good? Now the DPS Sage won't switch to heals because he doesn't want healing gear, he wants DPS gear...how does this help us?

 

What he gets will be based on the discipline he is in when he actually opens the box. So, if he wants DPS gear, he just needs to be spec'd DPS when he opens the box.

 

I still think RNG on this is absolutely stupid, but the change is a start.

[TUXs]

5.) Within five months, they will announce a system similar to what we have in 4.0 but it will be too late and the damage will have been done.

They'll never do it that quickly...they don't move that fast. Hell, the Ravagers exploit was left live for nearly 3-months...that was a petty loot drop, not a game altering change.

[Wayshuba]

What he gets will be based on the discipline he is in when he actually opens the box. So, if he wants DPS gear, he just needs to be spec'd DPS when he opens the box.

 

I still think RNG on this is absolutely stupid, but the change is a start.

 

We are talking as if this stupid system is already implemented - it isn't. What they have works. What players are telling them is not to change what works. What MassivelyOP and MMORPG have written is basically "What are they even thinking?". The old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies well here.

 

I don't know about you, but if I was a Product Manager on a product about to make changes where both the customers and press were universally saying, "Do not do this, it is stupid." I would seriously reconsider my position on the whole thing. How anyone, in any business, can think upsetting a good portion of your customer base and getting bad press is a good thing is beyond me.

 

BW should not make the mistake of implementing an end game RNG gear system in any form period (other than maybe as an additional to what exists today like Alliance Crates). It was a disaster in v1.x. It was a disaster with the Battlemaster boxes. And it will be a disaster if this goes live. Einstein's definition of insanity is a good bit of advice to heed here.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Wayshuba

[PlasmaJohn]

We are talking as if this stupid system is already implemented - it isn't. What they have works. What players are telling them is not to change what works. What MassivelyOP and MMORPG have written is basically "What are they even thinking?". The old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies well here.

This is EA/Austin we're discussing. This wasn't a proposal, it was an announcement. A done deal. They had some wiggle room (Discipline vs. AC) but it's woefully inadequate considering the rest of the brain damage (unbounded grind to get back to your previous progression level, impossible to rapidly onboard new alts, locking out Preferred folks, etc.)

 

I don't know about you, but if I was a Product Manager on a product about to make changes where both the customers and press were universally saying, "Do not do this, it is stupid." I would seriously reconsider my position on the whole thing. How anyone, in any business, can think upsetting a good portion of your customer base and getting bad press is a good thing is beyond me.

Me too but they've always be in their own little world and when it blows up on them they have the temerity to act surprised.

[Quraswren]

What he gets will be based on the discipline he is in when he actually opens the box. So, if he wants DPS gear, he just needs to be spec'd DPS when he opens the box.

 

Yes but why would he do that till he has his complete healer set built? Given the random nature of gearing that isn't going to happen anytime soon so his chance to swap and get other gear is very limited and thats before I mention how far into GC ranks do you need to get before you start getting the good stuff? 50? 75? 100?

 

If you need a set of gear,

 

I still think RNG on this is absolutely stupid, but the change is a start.

 

Yes, RNG gearing is a stupid move at this point in SWTOR.

[Mubrak]

That one got me too...tokens were too complex, but this DvL component isn't?

 

Crystals and their vendors were still too complex for the target audience: you couldn't get the wrong main stat anymore, but you still could buy PT tank gear for your sorc healer. (And nobody would notice ) The DvL tokens, be they actual items or numbers in the UI like comms and crystals, are more like event-tokens, you collect them and go to one vendor to buy some stuff that has no impact on your actual stats.

 

The gearing process was messed up, though: in order to get the crystals, loot drops or tokens required to upgrade your gear, you always got tons of crystals for obsolete gear. At least we could use them to buy mats and companion gifts in 4.0.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Mubrak

[Wayshuba]

Crystals and their vendors were still too complex for the target audience

 

Yeah, even thought the target audience - MMO players - deals with this as a standard part of every single MMO on the market. These guys would have their minds blown if they ever played GW2 and LOTRO. How can anyone actually play those game with so many currencies?

 

Truth is, is was a very thinly veiled excuse for the new system people are upset with especially when less than two minutes after making the statement they add two new currencies (light/dark side tokens) to the game.

[IanArgent]

Then now you have a new porblem many wont be able to do. How much leveling did you do on that alt? Does he have the gear to support the content you're hitting?

 

Given the time it takes to get gear. The random nature of it how long will it take to have that second alt read? I'd wager a long time even on a discipline based system and not AC. So long, if you work on that tank set, you'll have little time to actually work on another toon much less switch specs and work on a DPS set.

 

So yea, if you have time for all that, you are a bit weird because I don't think many put in that much time these days.

 

In the 3-ish years I've been playing the game, I have 8 characters at max level (2 created for DvL, one via the Start-at-60), all in some variety of Better Available Gear but the one I just brought to 65 (who's wearing a set of the Yavin Companion gear that I pulled out of legacy hold because he's on Tatooine in his class story and I'm too lazy to go hit a crystal vendor), all equipped using "personal" resources. Better Available Gear in this case is either 208/216 moddable crystal gear that's been somewhat tweaked for better stat distribution, or a mix of 204/208 PvP gear not tweaked at all. So, for the content level I'm at, I can cover any role on the Pub side simply by changing characters, and the only role I'm missing on the Imp side I could cover by changing Discipline on my Assassin and sending over my Shadow's tanking gear. Once 5.0 drops, I'll get the current character I'm working on to a natural "stopping point" in their story progression (probably end of Ch.1 in their class story), and work my existing alts through KotET one at a time while I do "side content" just as TFPs and PvP to fill in the gaps. It's possible I'll use the start at 65 token they give me to generate a Powertech to complement my current Mercenary, because I don't like running class stories back to back, and the BH story isn't one I currently feel the need to do twice.

 

(It's possible my Operative isn't ready to hit the highest level of content I can do - I don't like the mechanical playstyle of the Operative and had to force myself to play through his class story; I haven't done much of any group content with him, and about all I do with him these days are crew missions/crafting and banking/item storage. But he would fill the DPS role anyway, I have less than no desire to try Operative Healing when I have a perfectly cromulent Sorcerer healer)

[TUXs]

What he gets will be based on the discipline he is in when he actually opens the box. So, if he wants DPS gear, he just needs to be spec'd DPS when he opens the box.

 

I still think RNG on this is absolutely stupid, but the change is a start.

Yeah, that post was yesterday before I knew that.

 

As long as RNG stays, it's a broken and foolish system. Any time they need to say "I know if may seem punishing...", it should be nixed!

[Wayshuba]

This is EA/Austin we're discussing. This wasn't a proposal, it was an announcement. A done deal. They had some wiggle room (Discipline vs. AC) but it's woefully inadequate considering the rest of the brain damage (unbounded grind to get back to your previous progression level, impossible to rapidly onboard new alts, locking out Preferred folks, etc.)

 

 

Me too but they've always be in their own little world and when it blows up on them they have the temerity to act surprised.

 

I think, considering they mentioned in the livestream it was still in development and subject to change, this is not set in stone yet. The smart thing to do would be to either

 

1.) Update vendors and gear in the game as is and delay implementing this system (though I have a feeling the only way to access Uprisings is through this system). But that wouldn't allow them to invalidate all the crystals and commendations saved up and make you reset the grind.

 

2.) Change the system to drop tokens that go into your pack stash to be pulled by any player (I wrote another thread in General about this). But that still doesn't fix the raiding "power gear" or specific gearing issues or deal with the gearing imbalance in high level PvP that is about to become a complete mess.

 

3.) Update vendors in game with new equipment (including new PvP gear), keep system as is for raids and PvP and let system be an ALTERNATE means of acquiring equipment.

 

None of the above will happen though. What will happen is the system is going to be implemented. There is either going to be a massive uproar that makes the current uproar look pale in comparison or there will be a big drop off in frustrated subscribers that won't be replaced by new subscribers and BW will go back to the old system - or over Command Packs in the CM so you can gear faster which is a very likely possibility this is why they are doing it.

 

At the end of the day, I am beginning to believe that is the big switcharoo. Make the in game grind for end game gear so tedious that you can get around it by buying Command Crates in the CM. Then you, of course, need a subscription to equip what comes from these Command Crates. Or maybe, with Command Crates in the cartel market, this is how they will extract cash from F2P/Preferred players who will now have to BUY end game gear.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Wayshuba

[Quraswren]

SNIP...)

 

and at the end of the day you are trying to base this off the old way gear worked at max level.

 

That will no longer be the case. It will be run a main and one discipline till the longest length you can to make sure you have really nice gear or mix the two and have what I'd bet is less than average gear.

 

You can add in leveling another class that is your main in hopes to get both discipline sets roughly equally but then both will be behind the curve because of the time divided. I don't expect that to happen right away. I would guess most will try and get their mains to a high point before really tackling another alt. At some point we will learn of a plateau and that might be the cutoff for most to work on alts.

 

RNG gearing isn't there to help you. It's there to hinder you in gearing.