You Guys Are Not Listening At All - Good Luck with the 5.0 Launch

[Wayshuba]

As for comments about player's not doing Op's anymore because they can get gear now though GC. Well I disagree most raider were not doing Op's for gear. They were doing Op's because that is what they enjoyed doing. If this changes after 5.0 then Op's were not as fun as raider claimed. All 5.0 will do is maybe stop the hardest Op's for a very short time until enough players have enough new gear to re-start. Which will be what a week, maybe two at most? If the boxes are as easy to get as said on the livestream.

 

One other point, yes we will continue to do Ops because we enjoy the challenge with them. However, to enjoy that harder challenge you do need the gear. So, with each new increase in gear, you first do them to properly gear to do the harder ones. Once properly geared, then you continue to do them because you enjoy them. Some raiders like to get to the HM/NiM for the challenge quickly (since you have already done the same Ops over a thousand times) and that means gearing quickly to get back to doing what you were doing before the expansion dropped.

[robertthebard]

One other point, yes we will continue to do Ops because we enjoy the challenge with them. However, to enjoy that harder challenge you do need the gear. So, with each new increase in gear, you first do them to properly gear to do the harder ones. Once properly geared, then you continue to do them because you enjoy them. Some raiders like to get to the HM/NiM for the challenge quickly (since you have already done the same Ops over a thousand times) and that means gearing quickly to get back to doing what you were doing before the expansion dropped.

 

You need the gear rating described in the Operation. The sets are conveniences, and now apparently crutches, for the harder content. The process, however, will be exactly the same as it is now, up until lvl 70. None of the changes to the content occur until then, other than the crates being added and gaining GXP, which aren't currently in today's game. We have that in Yellow, so you can check the Dev Tracker for confirmation.

 

Now, I don't know how long it's going to take to hit 70, but I hope that they steepen that curve. Doing so would ease some of the misgivings about this system, along with other changes that they've made according to the Live Stream.

[Tsillah]

You need the gear rating described in the Operation. The sets are conveniences, and now apparently crutches, for the harder content. The process, however, will be exactly the same as it is now, up until lvl 70. None of the changes to the content occur until then, other than the crates being added and gaining GXP, which aren't currently in today's game. We have that in Yellow, so you can check the Dev Tracker for confirmation.

 

Now, I don't know how long it's going to take to hit 70, but I hope that they steepen that curve. Doing so would ease some of the misgivings about this system, along with other changes that they've made according to the Live Stream.

 

It's not the same as it is now. I can do ops as of level 50 and gain endgame gear that I can then equip once I ding 65. In 5.0 I cannot gain gear or GC xp to gain crates before level 70 so I have to wait till I'm level 70 to actually start the gearing. So instead of being able to start gearing at 50, I now have to wait till 70.

 

That is a significant difference in my book.

[Tsetso]

 

That is a significant difference in my book.

 

Don't forget that to enter anything harder than EV & KP HM, you'll probably have to grind to ~rank 30 so that the 216 equivalents start dropping at all.

[Tsillah]

Don't forget that to enter anything harder than EV & KP HM, you'll probably have to grind to ~rank 30 so that the 216 equivalents start dropping at all.

 

Probably more because changes are you won't have your first set of gear together at level 30 because of the RNG element.

 

Still I foresee that if you play regularly you should be able to accomplish that in a week or two. The question for me is, what makes sense in those two weeks to do, in order to get that gear. If solo content is interesting enough I would bypass SM ops altogether because of all the annoyances SM ops bring with them (nerfed boss fights and terrible players).

 

I would think that for a raider, especially since it's still the same old ops, it would be preferable to avoid SM ops altogether, and well, now we can.

[Tsetso]

Probably more because changes are you won't have your first set of gear together at level 30 because of the RNG element.

 

Still I foresee that if you play regularly you should be able to accomplish that in a week or two. The question for me is, what makes sense in those two weeks to do, in order to get that gear. If solo content is interesting enough I would bypass SM ops altogether because of all the annoyances SM ops bring with them (nerfed boss fights and terrible players).

 

I would think that for a raider, especially since it's still the same old ops, it would be preferable to avoid SM ops altogether, and well, now we can.

 

I heard a rumor that kotfe was significally interesting when run on nim mode. A lot of the bosses seem to have some interesting mechanics which we didn't see because of brute forcing.

[Tsillah]

I heard a rumor that kotfe was significally interesting when run on nim mode. A lot of the bosses seem to have some interesting mechanics which we didn't see because of brute forcing.

 

Well that could be cool as such but I don't think I'm interested in doing kotfe again. I already have a hard time going through the stories as it is. I mean, I am not reactivating my sub yet and it doesn't run out till January but I am allowing for the possibility that I might like 5.0 in spite of my concerns. But I really have a hard time running my main characters through KotFE as we speak.

 

I would prefer these boss fights to be accessible outside the story or I just won't bother to be honest. I just don't care for kotfe enough to go back there again. I am hoping I will enjoy kotet a lot better.

 

But again, you need to be level 70 and have enough gear to even go there.

[casirabit]

It's not the same as it is now. I can do ops as of level 50 and gain endgame gear that I can then equip once I ding 65. In 5.0 I cannot gain gear or GC xp to gain crates before level 70 so I have to wait till I'm level 70 to actually start the gearing. So instead of being able to start gearing at 50, I now have to wait till 70.

 

That is a significant difference in my book.

 

How long is it really going to take to get to 70? I just leveled 2 toons to 65 in three weeks. Sure the double xp will not be there but I am willing to bet you will be level 70 before you even get half-way through the story.

[Tsillah]

How long is it really going to take to get to 70? I just leveled 2 toons to 65 in three weeks. Sure the double xp will not be there but I am willing to bet you will be level 70 before you even get half-way through the story.

 

I agree but that wasn't what the discussion was about.

[Wayshuba]

How long is it really going to take to get to 70? I just leveled 2 toons to 65 in three weeks. Sure the double xp will not be there but I am willing to bet you will be level 70 before you even get half-way through the story.

 

That's not the point. The point is how you are able to gear upon dinging top level today vs what is coming.

 

A couple of examples:

 

PvP - Today in PvP you can begin playing at Level 10 and gaining commendations. I recently had another toon that upon dinging 65 had a little over 24k commedations saved up. Since it takes just over 21k to fully gear in 208 PvP, I am able to purchase the gear I need and immediately jump into 65 PvP and be competitive. PvP, unlike raiding, is NOT about gear progression (as was painfully found out in SWTOR 1.x which they have since fixed and are about to erase all those fixes again) it is about player skill, and thus gearing must remain equalized. With the new system, I can't even start gearing until I reach level 70, then have to grind the gear. If I dare jump into a PvP match upon dinging 70, I am going to get crushed by all the PvPers who are playing toons that have ground through 80-100 CxP levels. Thus, high level PvP is going to become the gear mish-mash mess it was in v1.x and we all know how that turned out.

 

Raiding - Likewise, you can begin SM raiding when you hit level 50. By the time you hit 65, you usually have enough gear to immediately equip and begin taking on HMs. With the new system, you have to first ding 70, then grind, then HOPE the RNG gods are in your favor. I won't even go into how the new system absolutely destroys power gearing newer guild members or alts to catch up with better geared guild mates.

 

Basically, the new system will completely wipe out all the improvements BW made that caused A LOT of players to leave in the v1.x era. We already know what this will do to the player base as it has happened before. Putting a new color lipstick on the pig, still makes it a pig.

 

The only reason I can see BW even making this severe step backwards is the hopes of selling Command Crates (i.e., end game gear) in the CM in the near future. The problem with that, however, is any game that has tried that in the past (like LOTRO) has been a very quick disaster.

 

If this RNG end gear is implemented, it WILL have a very negative effect on the game. Mark my words. It happened twice in the past with this game and it won't be any different this time. Unfortunately, if that same disaster happens a third time, I don't think SWTOR is in any position to recover from it - at least if they plan on operating this game another year from now, but maybe they aren't and are going for the one last cash grab EA is famous for before shutting down a title.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Wayshuba

[Quraswren]

Seriously, what the **** was wrong with the current token system?!

 

Hasn't Bioware ever heard of the old adage: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"?

 

Agreed,

 

Leave in teh command ranks, galactic command DVL but the reward system for gear being random is a no go.

 

Add back in the token system. Let gamers choose what they need to fill out those sets and control how quickly getting all that gear happens through the command ranks.

 

Turning the current gear system into the complete garbage system of random gear in a box is not something I can spin in anyway to make it worth playing SWTOR for.

 

Current system just isn't broken and did not need to be changed to random gear. Even changing it from AC based to discipline doesn't help it enough. It's still random loot and thats a major problem.

[Wahala]

I am Baffled. What does Bioware hope to get with all this Random Box stuff. They make no more money from a Sub for playing more different content for more hours per week. If the player is happy playing what he wants to a 1 hour/week sub pays them the same as a 50 hour/week Sub. Some (Like me) do not like to spend hours and hours to make progress. I usually just do heroics to get my common crystals, then buy 208 amour for alts at 65. ( I Make the relics and implants and hilts/barrels) I am also saving up the purple crystals for 216 gear ..... wasted time:confused: Now what? More complexity (Not Less).

 

Maybe they should spend time on Customer service. I Did directive 7 yesterday (Got the completed achievement and the checkmark in the D/:L thing) but got none of the "Loot" at the end. Put in a ticket, got the usual "Sorry you had difficulty with the content. There is nothing we can do. You can put in a Bug Report." Bug report = Trash can as far as getting the stuff I was supposed to. Maybe I coulf spend another hour and try it again .... not.

 

Eric says we have to trust him that they have some "Really Cool" stuff coming in the future .... Just like he said about 5.0. Somehow I am getting to the point that I don't trust him.

 

Sorry ... cause even with the flaws I Loved this game .... but Love can fade away.

 

 

I have a Bad Feeling about 5.0

Edited October 22, 2016 by Wahala

[Transcendent]

Just curious and this is to all the OP/raiders out there:

 

How long do you think it should take to get fully geared for end game content?

 

I came from EQ, so my idea of gearing time is significantly longer (I also do OPs and know this game doesn't take anywhere near as long.)

 

I PvP more often than not for group content. For me personally that would be ~1 week absolute tops within the current system, probably ~20-30 hours max. If it was moving across 4.0 to 5.0 with the same system as it uses now it would take less time as I probably have upwards of 130k wz commendations, and I'd likely level by playing story / PvP, so that figure would increase.

[JamieKirby]

Guys, you are just complaining about it taking LONGER to gear up your characters, right now, its fast and easy.....you need the chest piece? go kill x boss in x operation, now it will be random and that is what is cause you guys and gals to have such a hissy fit over it.

[Wahala]

Guys, you are just complaining about it taking LONGER to gear up your characters, right now, its fast and easy.....you need the chest piece? go kill x boss in x operation, now it will be random and that is what is cause you guys and gals to have such a hissy fit over it.

 

This is exactly true. However with the present system, you can have a goal and make a plan to achieve it. With Random Boxes, you can have a goal, but theoretically, you will never reach it. Or Maybe you will. You can not really plan and execute.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Wahala

[Quraswren]

Guys, you are just complaining about it taking LONGER to gear up your characters, right now, its fast and easy.....you need the chest piece? go kill x boss in x operation, now it will be random and that is what is cause you guys and gals to have such a hissy fit over it.

 

Longer is not the problem. Command ranks can be used to control the rate of gear token if they kept the same loot system. Keep tokens so gamers can choose what they need. Control the drop of tokens through the command ranks. Make it take a longer if needed. Just don't let it be random.

 

Random is the problem. Pulling the slot machine handle and going oh well I lose again time after time (which btw only gets worse as the time you might actually win makes it harder to win again as you get more and more useless duplicates)

 

Random gear as SWTOR is wanting to try is not designed to benefit the game in any way. It's made to make you lose and lose a lot. Making sure there is a chance that you never get what you need and if RNG is the same for you as it has been for me. Just the idea of RNG loot is bad.

 

RNG looting isn't made for the player to have a good time. It's made to make sure you lose out a whole lot more than you succeed.

[robertthebard]

It's not the same as it is now. I can do ops as of level 50 and gain endgame gear that I can then equip once I ding 65. In 5.0 I cannot gain gear or GC xp to gain crates before level 70 so I have to wait till I'm level 70 to actually start the gearing. So instead of being able to start gearing at 50, I now have to wait till 70.

 

That is a significant difference in my book.

 

So there is no difference, since we have it in Yellow, yet again, that gear will still drop until 70. So being the same will somehow be different?

[Tsetso]

Longer is not the problem.

 

Depends how much longer anything more than a month is a deal breaker for me.

[Tsillah]

Guys, you are just complaining about it taking LONGER to gear up your characters, right now, its fast and easy.....you need the chest piece? go kill x boss in x operation, now it will be random and that is what is cause you guys and gals to have such a hissy fit over it.

 

Well actually the problem is not so much that it takes longer because I think it's not going to be so bad at least for most people. What the RNG may cause is that some people may never get their sets together because of bad luck or might get left behind in harder content till they get their gear together while their friends/guildies are off doing HM/NiM content.

 

That is the biggest issue with RNG.

 

Medium sized or smaller guilds could get in trouble like that as described above or they may be forced to do lower content and not do the content they want to do while the unlucky person will feel bad for causing this.

[Quraswren]

Depends how much longer anything more than a month is a deal breaker for me.

 

I'd like to think BW isn't that stupid.

 

But the true taking a little longer to get gear isn't really the isuse.

 

Random gear is. There is no benefit to the gamer for random gearing in slot machine pull by random loot crates.

 

RNG gearing is not designed in anyway to benefit the actual players.

[Tsillah]

So there is no difference, since we have it in Yellow, yet again, that gear will still drop until 70. So being the same will somehow be different?

 

Are you really not getting this?

 

Do you really think that the ops pre 70 will drop the same gear as the command boxes? The answer is no, because you won't get command boxes till level 70.

 

So whatever drops in operations before 70 will clearly not be the same level gear that drops from the command boxes. How much more clearly can it be stated than that GC starts at 70. Not before. That's where the new endgame gearing starts. Currently it starts at 50.

[robertthebard]

Are you really not getting this?

 

Do you really think that the ops pre 70 will drop the same gear as the command boxes? The answer is no, because you won't get command boxes till level 70.

 

So whatever drops in operations before 70 will clearly not be the same level gear that drops from the command boxes. How much more clearly can it be stated than that GC starts at 70. Not before. That's where the new endgame gearing starts. Currently it starts at 50.

 

It will, however, be rated appropriately for the content. Isn't that what we have now? Or is there some top secret thing going on that's making people rail hard against this because once this is in, that top secret thing goes away?

 

Not to mention, of course, the ability to craft gear appropriate for content, sans set bonuses.

[IanArgent]

I'd like to think BW isn't that stupid.

 

But the true taking a little longer to get gear isn't really the isuse.

 

Random gear is. There is no benefit to the gamer for random gearing in slot machine pull by random loot crates.

 

RNG gearing is not designed in anyway to benefit the actual players.

 

Random gearing benefits the game design in that it is (theoretically) possible to control gear acquisition rates at a much finer level by twiddling the gear drop rates. This may or may not The same effect could have been better implemented by using a currency instead of tokens, (the way PvP gearing works), but for Reasons, they don't want to use a currency for gearing. I have speculated it's due to the rather horrible UX the current vendors have; which I was reminded of when I went to go buy the set of PvP 204s I'd been saving up for on the character I'm currently working on - I ended up starting up a copy of Excel to do some arithmetic, and looking some things up on third-party websites to make sure I a)had enough WZ Comms to fill out my Expertise, so I wouldn't make my effective stats worse by partially gearing, b)make sure I bought the "right" set of armor for my discipline, and c)make sure I wasn't making screamingly inefficient choices on the left hand side. And now I have two sets of blaster pistols, because I had previously modded out a set of blasters to 208 Crafted, and the PvP 204 mod sets are statistically inferior to the 208 crafted everywhere but PvP. And lets not even get into the "sink" I'm in that I can't upgrade my gear with crafted mods because it'll break expertise, and if I get a couple of tokens via ops and get to upgrade the armor plates, that'll break expertise as well.

 

(As a side note, I'll do a certain amount of homework to optimize gear - I have a spreadsheet around here with a solver setup too complicated for any non-Excel spreadsheet, dedicated to optimizing setups for another game; but that was a lot more work than I really wanted to do to get in the door without falling over)

 

If they didn't want currency, then RNG is what they've got.

[Quraswren]

Random gearing benefits the game design in that it is (theoretically) possible to control gear acquisition rates at a much finer level by twiddling the gear drop rates.

 

Not really no. RNG gearing is just that. The uncontrolled acquisition of gear but is also weight to make sure the gamer loses more than wins. Thats the whole point of it. It's not only no good for gamers, it's terrible game design at this point in the SWTOR MMO after years of what we have had. It's a massive step backwards in game design at this point all to what? Try to get gamers to sub just a bit longer for one more pull of the slot machine handle? Sorry but thats not a good system.

 

Tokens controlled through the command ranks that still lets gamers chose what they need is a much better system that allows actual control of gearing and the time to do it.

 

If they didn't want currency, then RNG is what they've got.

 

Getting rid of crystals would still have been fine. RNG is whats not fine. Stick with the token system and control that through command ranks. Gamers still get to chose what they need and bw still controls gearing rate.

 

RNG - Thats good for no one but BW. A move that cheapens the whole point in playing SWTOR at max level.

[Tsillah]

It will, however, be rated appropriately for the content. Isn't that what we have now? Or is there some top secret thing going on that's making people rail hard against this because once this is in, that top secret thing goes away?

 

Not to mention, of course, the ability to craft gear appropriate for content, sans set bonuses.

 

No it's not what we have now. Honestly, what does it take to explain to you that we currently can gain level 65 gear at level 50. The gear that drops in SM ops is level 65 gear with a 216 rating. This gear is the Tier 1 gear of the current expansion. You can get this starting 15 levels below actually being level 65.

 

In 5.0 this option no longer exists. We cannot as of level 50 or 55 get Tier 1 gear of the new expansion. Now I am not saying that's a bad thing. I am only stating that it's different.

 

If you cannot see the difference between that, I'm not sure if I should laugh, feel exasperated or just feel sad for you. I almost hope that you are doing this out of some misguided need to want to be right no matter what, but really it's an objective observation that you can do something now (getting tier 1 endgame gear before you are of the appropriate level) which is no longer the case in 5.0 Really, I cannot make it any clearer than this that there is a difference there.