You Guys Are Not Listening At All - Good Luck with the 5.0 Launch

[robertthebard]

No it's not what we have now. Honestly, what does it take to explain to you that we currently can gain level 65 gear at level 50. The gear that drops in SM ops is level 65 gear with a 216 rating. This gear is the Tier 1 gear of the current expansion. You can get this starting 15 levels below actually being level 65.

 

In 5.0 this option no longer exists. We cannot as of level 50 or 55 get Tier 1 gear of the new expansion. Now I am not saying that's a bad thing. I am only stating that it's different.

 

If you cannot see the difference between that, I'm not sure if I should laugh, feel exasperated or just feel sad for you. I almost hope that you are doing this out of some misguided need to want to be right no matter what, but really it's an objective observation that you can do something now (getting tier 1 endgame gear before you are of the appropriate level) which is no longer the case in 5.0 Really, I cannot make it any clearer than this that there is a difference there.

 

Did I miss the part where they said they were taking our current gear away? If so, oops, my bad. If they're not taking it away, then I'm going to at least have entry level gear when I hit 70. In the meantime, gear that drops is going to be appropriate for both level and content. I'm guessing I also missed the part where current set bonuses are going away too? Because even with all the changes up to now, all the set pieces that I have, despite being 3 or 4 years old, still work.

 

So maybe it's more about me being confused about what the big deal is, since no matter what, I'm going to have at the very least good starter level gear for the new progression, and, as stated by the devs in the live stream, I'll be able to pull multiple crates per day, for my spec, I may well have set pieces for the next tier in one day, maybe two, depending on what drops in the crates.

 

I touched on the "getting gear before I need it" in the other thread, I don't need to pull gear before I need it, it just takes up space in the cargo bay.

[Transcendent]

Did I miss the part where they said they were taking our current gear away? If so, oops, my bad. If they're not taking it away, then I'm going to at least have entry level gear when I hit 70. In the meantime, gear that drops is going to be appropriate for both level and content. I'm guessing I also missed the part where current set bonuses are going away too? Because even with all the changes up to now, all the set pieces that I have, despite being 3 or 4 years old, still work.

 

So maybe it's more about me being confused about what the big deal is, since no matter what, I'm going to have at the very least good starter level gear for the new progression, and, as stated by the devs in the live stream, I'll be able to pull multiple crates per day, for my spec, I may well have set pieces for the next tier in one day, maybe two, depending on what drops in the crates.

 

I touched on the "getting gear before I need it" in the other thread, I don't need to pull gear before I need it, it just takes up space in the cargo bay.

 

So how is this an improvement for a PvP end-game player? Currently I can collect Warzone Commendations while levelling (from level 10) all the way up to level 65. Once I hit level 65, I'll normally have enough saved to get the end-game gear required for level 65 play (204+208 PvP set). With this new system, I can level from 10, all the way to 70 and have zero gear to use for end-game - because now I'll have to also level my command ranks once I hit 70.

 

Which part about what is being said to you, do you not understand?

[indelible]

I think people are forgetting: Bioware went down this path previously - although not as dramatically - and got the living ***** kicked out of them by the community. They implemented RNG loot chests for PvP gear, every single PvPer, the PvP community complained ( loudly, and not in the minority ), and they were forced into a dramatic rollback. Roll on a few years, and what are we getting? A new RNG system that impacts EVERY aspect of the game. I mean... it fundamentally undermines the drive at the center of every MMORPG ever - loot.

 

Frankly, I get the distinct impression BW have literally no idea what they're doing outside of making the single player story stuff at this point. Maybe they should just bite the bullet, shut down all end game development, close down PvP, remove the sub, and carry the game forward as a B2P episodic story-driven RPG.

 

That would be less disingenuous that seemingly and purposefully developing your MMO to drive as many of your core players away as is humanly possible.

[Chuhu]

OP, your headline is correct.

If you want them to listen to you..this is not the place to be..this forum site is just a big joke..

You need to logon to Twitter if you want them to listen..it seems where their focus are..

 

Best of luck..

Me, I can't care less....

[Wayshuba]

Did I miss the part where they said they were taking our current gear away? If so, oops, my bad. If they're not taking it away, then I'm going to at least have entry level gear when I hit 70. In the meantime, gear that drops is going to be appropriate for both level and content. I'm guessing I also missed the part where current set bonuses are going away too? Because even with all the changes up to now, all the set pieces that I have, despite being 3 or 4 years old, still work.

 

They are not taking your gear away and, if you raid, you will NOT have the entry level gear required either. Don't forget that the Ops will be updated where the entry level gear is higher than even the top level gear today. 228 will be the entry requirement on SM raid now, 236 on HM and 240 for NiM (or Master). This gear, you can't even start to grind until level 70 and will need a minimum of 14 CS Levels (if the RNG gods are really, really, really smiling upon you) but more likely 40-60 levels. Considering the said the goal was earning a crate and hour, that means it will take longer in time to get your entry level Op gear than it does to level from 1-70 in the first place.

 

The other issue, which hasn't even been addressed yet, is there is also a pretty big nerf coming to the majority of healing and DPS classes... which is going to make this gear even more important than it is today.

 

See the problem now?

Edited October 23, 2016 by Wayshuba

[Tsillah]

Did I miss the part where they said they were taking our current gear away? If so, oops, my bad. If they're not taking it away, then I'm going to at least have entry level gear when I hit 70. In the meantime, gear that drops is going to be appropriate for both level and content. I'm guessing I also missed the part where current set bonuses are going away too? Because even with all the changes up to now, all the set pieces that I have, despite being 3 or 4 years old, still work.

 

So maybe it's more about me being confused about what the big deal is, since no matter what, I'm going to have at the very least good starter level gear for the new progression, and, as stated by the devs in the live stream, I'll be able to pull multiple crates per day, for my spec, I may well have set pieces for the next tier in one day, maybe two, depending on what drops in the crates.

 

I touched on the "getting gear before I need it" in the other thread, I don't need to pull gear before I need it, it just takes up space in the cargo bay.

 

The only reason you apparently don't get my point is because you can't see the difference between a judgement and an observation. I am not talking about whether or not it's a good or bad change or whether something is needed or not.

 

You keep explaining why it's fine the way it's going to be but that's completely irrelevant to the point that it's different. It's not a complaint, it's not a judgement. It's just an observation that it's a change. You said it's exactly the same as it is now. It's not, but that doesn't mean it's a problem. We don't know that yet.

 

See here's the thing. We don't know yet which rating gear will drop in SM ops for below 70 characters. There is also no clear indication that it will be exactly the same gear that drops now. It could be the same 216 gear but it could be 220 or 224 gear for example. Will it have set bonuses? Maybe, maybe not.

 

Then the question becomes, is the gear that drops in SM ops for people under level 70 baseline gear for HM ops...or will you have to become level 70, start GC leveling and then the 230 gear that drops from the gear boxes will be the baseline gear.

 

So if you want to talk about the possible EFFECTS of this difference, it could lie there. If the gear that drops from ops pre level 70 is good enough to start HM, then people who have 224 gear now would be ready to go into HM directly. Then they just do the story to 70, skip SM ops entirely and go directly into HM.

 

If the gear that drops pre 70 is not good enough to go directly to HM, then you have to start collecting your actual baseline gear for HM ops AFTER you turn 70.

 

Bottom line, no matter how much you twist around it, there is an objective difference in gearing before 70. Whether that's a problem or how much of a difference it makes for going into HM ops, that remains to be seen. That all depends on whether the pre 70 gear is good enough to go to HM or not. I would find that surprising myself because it would actually invalidate the first tier of gear from the GC gearboxes.

Edited October 23, 2016 by Tsillah

[Wayshuba]

See here's the thing. We don't know yet which rating gear will drop in SM ops for below 70 characters. There is also no clear indication that it will be exactly the same gear that drops now. It could be the same 216 gear but it could be 220 or 224 gear for example. Will it have set bonuses? Maybe, maybe not.

 

Just a clarification, if you go back and watch the last livestream they make it clear that NO gear will drop in Ops and FPs anymore. Decorations and crafting items, yes, but no more gear. Their reasoning is you will play the content for the CxP instead and the harder the content, or bigger the group, the more CxP you will earn.

 

On that clarification, it will also be why people who are willing to do the grind will now only do the fastest group content they can. Why take all that time with Directive 7 when there are other FPs you can run faster. For Ops, there is no reason to run anything but EV and KP now, unless you do more than two raids a week to go around the lockouts. Of course, when it comes to the OPs, that is once you have at least got one character through 40-60 CxP levels to get the entry level gear.

[Tsillah]

Just a clarification, if you go back and watch the last livestream they make it clear that NO gear will drop in Ops and FPs anymore. Decorations and crafting items, yes, but no more gear. Their reasoning is you will play the content for the CxP instead and the harder the content, or bigger the group, the more CxP you will earn.

 

On that clarification, it will also be why people who are willing to do the grind will now only do the fastest group content they can. Why take all that time with Directive 7 when there are other FPs you can run faster. For Ops, there is no reason to run anything but EV and KP now, unless you do more than two raids a week to go around the lockouts. Of course, when it comes to the OPs, that is once you have at least got one character through 40-60 CxP levels to get the entry level gear.

 

Well you don't earn CxP before level 70 and that's what we're talking about. Pre level 70 gear apparently does still drop in some form and since you will be able to do SM ops before level 70 you can still get gear drops there. At least that is my understanding. However, contrary to 4.0, the gear drops will no longer be the first tier of the actual endgame gear as they are now and if you are level 70 doing sm Ops you will get rewards as per the GC system.

 

The only point of contention between me and him is that I observed that you no longer get tier 1 endgame gear before max level in SM ops and for some reason he doesn't get that it's a simple observation, nothing more.

[Transcendent]

Just a clarification, if you go back and watch the last livestream they make it clear that NO gear will drop in Ops and FPs anymore.

 

1) You can get gear that has your set bonus as early as the very first Command Crate you receive at Command Rank 1.

2) Bolster will still exist in SM. If someone under level 70 is in an Operation they can still loot gear from the boss as they did before. It is when they hit level 70 that they will begin earning CXP instead towards Command Crates.

3) That is a fairly complicated question to answer, so, a few caveats. First, how many Command Crates you would earn from playing an Operation, for example, is dependent on a few factors. What is your current Command Rank, what difficulty is the Op, how many players are in the Op, etc. It is faster to level from Command Rank 1-2 than it will be at higher Command levels. The team is still turning the dials on CXP, but as we get closer to launch I will try to provide a more exact example of how much CXP you could earn in an Op/how many Crates.

 

-eric

 

Pre-level 70 you still get gear drops. Just to clarify.

[thewitchdoctor]

Pre-level 70 you still get gear drops. Just to clarify.

 

Da what?

 

So ... a SM group goes in with 7 70's and 1 65. The 65 will get gear drops off the bosses but the 70s won't?

 

This system is a bigger mess with every post. So the 'its too hard to gear yourself' gear will still drop for 65-69, but the hand-held gear will accrue once you hit 70? What about that poor sap who hit 70 two-thirds of the way through the op?

 

Does this mean that the pre-70 gear is higher than 224? If so, then that means they have bothered to itemise 5.0 gear for drops. If not, then it leads credence to the idea that HM+ raiders will need to grind out SM and CXP before they get back to their HM+ content.

 

Ridiculous.

[thewitchdoctor]

On that clarification, it will also be why people who are willing to do the grind will now only do the fastest group content they can. Why take all that time with Directive 7 when there are other FPs you can run faster. For Ops, there is no reason to run anything but EV and KP now, unless you do more than two raids a week to go around the lockouts. Of course, when it comes to the OPs, that is once you have at least got one character through 40-60 CxP levels to get the entry level gear.

 

True point.

 

Ironic, GC is meant to force old content to stay relevant but everything but the fastest and/or easiest of it will get ignored in the zerg. Which really means, in effect, you'll have less to do with GC if you do not have a self-supported guild or group of regular friends who will do all content. If you rely on PUG ops to get that CXP, its going to be KP and EV for you.

[Tsetso]

If you rely on PUG ops to get that CXP, its going to be KP and EV for you.

 

Not that we haven't seen it in 4.0 when HLHM is EV or KP

[Tsillah]

Da what?

 

So ... a SM group goes in with 7 70's and 1 65. The 65 will get gear drops off the bosses but the 70s won't?

 

Yep, the 70s however will get command points towards their next gearbox.

 

This system is a bigger mess with every post. So the 'its too hard to gear yourself' gear will still drop for 65-69, but the hand-held gear will accrue once you hit 70? What about that poor sap who hit 70 two-thirds of the way through the op?

 

The poor sap will get command points at that point I would think instead of the lower gear.

 

Does this mean that the pre-70 gear is higher than 224? If so, then that means they have bothered to itemise 5.0 gear for drops. If not, then it leads credence to the idea that HM+ raiders will need to grind out SM and CXP before they get back to their HM+ content.

 

It would make no sense to make pre 70 gear higher than 224. There is a chance even that they might still drop the same 216 gear as it drops now but who knows? However there isn't much sense in making it higher than 224 because it would make the first tier of endgame gear pointless.

 

So it seems most reasonable to expect the pre 70s to get lower gear and as soon as you hit 70 you start getting points for the better gear.

[thewitchdoctor]

Not that we haven't seen it in 4.0 when HLHM is EV or KP

 

Yep. I suspect it will just be even more SOP for PUGs tho. Bloody sad. SWTOR may have had super slow ops releases and far too many released bugged as hell (Soa to start, ToS to end), but they were fun. For the most part they did give a feel to the game. I enjoyed EC, for example. It was different. Not many people going to see it now, I bet.

[thewitchdoctor]

So it seems most reasonable to expect the pre 70s to get lower gear and as soon as you hit 70 you start getting points for the better gear.

 

I think you are right. It was you I was thinking of when I said, 'lends credence to the idea that ...' HM+ raiders will have to hit 70 and then start grinding out SM ops to get their CXP up just to get back to the content they enjoy.

 

The PVP-only crowd remains the hardest hurt. That's a crowd that BWA really has put the screws to for the last five years.

[Tsetso]

Yep. I suspect it will just be even more SOP for PUGs tho. Bloody sad. SWTOR may have had super slow ops releases and far too many released bugged as hell (Soa to start, ToS to end), but they were fun. For the most part they did give a feel to the game. I enjoyed EC, for example. It was different. Not many people going to see it now, I bet.

 

I believe the intent is to chase any players that love ops so that they can just abandon them and do some zergfest "group" content like the gw2 dynamic events.

[thewitchdoctor]

I believe the intent is to chase any players that love ops so that they can just abandon them and do some zergfest "group" content like the gw2 dynamic events.

 

Which ... isn't that what these DvL 'world bosses' sound like? So, I share the same suspicion as you. Same for PVP. If there isn't anyone doing it, they don't have to even try to balance it anymore.

[Tsillah]

I think you are right. It was you I was thinking of when I said, 'lends credence to the idea that ...' HM+ raiders will have to hit 70 and then start grinding out SM ops to get their CXP up just to get back to the content they enjoy.

 

Well I'll do SM ops with guildies but now I also have other ways to avoid pugging them because I can do more activities to get my gear. SM ops are a cess pool of fail players and I will do my best to stay away from them so I can go to HM asap.

 

The PVP-only crowd remains the hardest hurt. That's a crowd that BWA really has put the screws to for the last five years.

 

Well, PvP has never really gotten anything beyond a few more warzones. It still amazes me how small the framework is for PvP in this game. GSF was a good attempt I will say but that was ruined by a lack of balance and maps, particularly when bombers were introduced.

 

But just for ground PvP it's all very one dimensional. I don't know how long it will take to gear up but and I do not know how big the gear differences will be. The difference between a geared and not so geared player might actually be a lot smaller than it is now because of the removal of expertise.

 

The valor rank requirement for ranked will be interesting. I think it needs to be set high enough, probably 60 and the pve heroes as they are lovingly called will have a much harder time getting into ranked now, so maybe it's not all bad.

[Tsetso]

I don't know how long it will take to gear up but and I do not know how big the gear differences will be. The difference between a geared and not so geared player might actually be a lot smaller than it is now because of the removal of expertise.

 

The difference will be exactly the same as it is now between a 208 pve set and 224 pve set. Unless they keep bolster to equalize it. Which is not a bad idea, but makes the whole rng grind meaningless.

[Tsillah]

The difference will be exactly the same as it is now between a 208 pve set and 224 pve set. Unless they keep bolster to equalize it. Which is not a bad idea, but makes the whole rng grind meaningless.

 

I don't agree. A 224 pve set gets a big penalty to expertise which is a bigger loss than the actual stat difference. So I expect the difference to be smaller between gear particularly with bolster because the points you gain from better gear in the current set up are worth less in combat than the expertise that is lost. That imbalanced trade off will no longer exist when expertise is removed.

[Tsetso]

I don't agree. A 224 pve set gets a big penalty to expertise which is a bigger loss than the actual stat difference. So I expect the difference to be smaller between gear particularly with bolster because the points you gain from better gear in the current set up are worth less in combat than the expertise that is lost. That imbalanced trade off will no longer exist when expertise is removed.

 

I said that the difference between current 224 and 208 PVE sets.

[Tsillah]

I said that the difference between current 224 and 208 PVE sets.

 

Ahh I misread I thought you were speaking of a bolstered situation.

 

Since the upcoming gear ratings aren't know yet I cannot possibly agree or disagree with you however I am not sure if 208 is the right current rating to compare with. So why pick 208 if I may ask? And if I have to believe the rumours the new gear tiers will be much closer together in rating than the current tiers which would effectively make the gap smaller.

[Tsetso]

Ahh I misread I thought you were speaking of a bolstered situation.

 

Since the upcoming gear ratings aren't know yet I cannot possibly agree or disagree with you however I am not sure if 208 is the right current rating to compare with. So why pick 208 if I may ask? And if I have to believe the rumours the new gear tiers will be much closer together in rating than the current tiers which would effectively make the gap smaller.

 

Sure, it's a speculation mostly but so far when new tiers of gear came the stat budget was increasing mostly linear. And i picked 208 because that's the starting gear you get in 65. Not sure how many tiers will be in 5.0. At any rate the difference between current 216 and 224 is about 600 dps or about 10% which you can see in this thread.

[Tsillah]

Sure, it's a speculation mostly but so far when new tiers of gear came the stat budget was increasing mostly linear. And i picked 208 because that's the starting gear you get in 65. Not sure how many tiers will be in 5.0. At any rate the difference between current 216 and 224 is about 600 dps or about 10% which you can see in this thread.

 

Well if you're interested go to torcommunity.com I can't discuss what's on there on this forum, but, well, you get the point.

[IanArgent]

My SWAG as to what the star difference between tier 3 (today's 224) and tier 0 (today's 208) will be around 5% before factoring set bonus. Set bonus might add another 5% to DPS/HPS. But I suspect they're going to de-emphasize the importance of having big numbers as a soft mitigation mechanism for the RNG. That way you can get your 6/6 set bonus across however many drops to max GC level and even if the armor plate is not BiS, your stats will be acceptable for highest tier content.

 

How much of the Endurance budget for a tank (or the Mastery budget for anyone else) comes from the plates in armor today? How much after 5.0?