Why Macros belong in TOR.

[NightHawke]

No NO no NO

 

Macro is for lazy ppl who dont want to do anything them self what we do need is AUTOATTACK tire of spaming the same key over and over

 

This.

 

It is indeed skill less.

 

What you are going to find is that there will be flavor of the month builds for classes and skills... but also FoTM macros as things are tested.

 

This you will have scoundrels and shadows (and mirrors) hitting a button, now they can completely focus on running around the target without pushing anything else.

 

Making these classes that take a tad of skill (even with it dumbed down a bit) into a class than anyone can do and be. So now we will have armies of shadows, armed with macros, running around circle strafing because they dont have to push any buttons with their mouse.

 

Woot!

 

 

Sorry man, macros are just being lazy. The only macro I can see having is an autoloot one, or maybe even an area autoloot. But we already have that.

[Thaonnor]

There is nothing automated about focus macros. By inhibits, I mean that I believe gameplay is faster and more fluid when focus macros are present, and that I can play more efficiently and effectively when permitted to utilize the focus system.

 

I had already adapted to the absence of macros before I queued for my first warzone - that does not mean that their absence did not detract from my experience or decrease my enjoyment - it did. Not because I was incapable of playing - the converse actually, I excelled - but because the combat felt awkward and clunky in comparison.

 

Macro - Computing a single instruction that expands automatically into a set of instructions to perform a particular task. (Oxford)

 

All macros are by definition automated. They are automating a process in which would normally be done by clicking the target to focus them. Now that our definition of macro is cleared up (unless of course you would like to argue with dictionary definitions, in which case we have much larger issues than macros in SWTOR).

 

You believe that gameplay is faster and more fluid with macros present. I understand this, as again the definition lends a helping hand. Not having to actually do something does in fact make it faster, and more fluid. Pressing a simple button and having it automatically done for you will definitely make things more fluid and faster. There is no doubt that having something be automatic does make your play time more efficient, as you do not in fact have to make the input or have the awareness to look around and click the player yourself.

 

It is great that you have adapted, because there are not macros in this game. I am by no means saying that you do not have the right to talk about how your experience would be better with macros. However, that is not an argument that is any stronger than those who claim there should not be macros because it ruins their experience. By the fact that we are all paying the same amount of money per month, you could assume that we are all equal in the amount of power our experience and opinions have on shaping the game.

 

I will agree with you t hat the combat is awkward and clunky. However, the solution to an awkward clunky game is not to send players to Google to find the best macros to use to get around the clunkyness, but rather to fix the clunkyness and make it more playable for all players, not just those who wish to automate their gameplay. This also makes things better for newer players, who come into the game and may judge the game based on its face value, not the value with macro complexity added.

[_compton_]

Da derp derp derpie herp herp? Herpie derpie berpie!

 

You want macros for 5 or 6 abilities? I think you don't know how to play. You were comfortable with WoW and smashing buttons but when you get into a new game you still want the feeling of the old game. No. Either adapt to the new style or macro off.

 

But yes, don't consider someones opinion going against what you believe to be trolling. This isn't WoW forums. Either you adapt or just stop playing, "Compton".

 

Yet another poster who failed to actually read the OP. Maybe I should keep a count.

 

I have not and do not consider opinions which conflict with my own to be trolling. In fact, I've stressed that point. I'll quote the troll post in a second, it was clearly a troll and clearly not constructive. Compton is my last name, I fail to see what how putting it in quotes adds anything to the merit of your statement.

 

"Goonso".

 

Yes, all macros are inherently automated to some extent - but the ones to which most of the ignorant posters are referring to are actually addons that perform in game tasks for you without input - such as automatically identifying and targeting a healer - and that is also what I was referring to. The entire process of casting a spell is automated. The aiming process is automated. Hotkeys function as a "shortcut" as well. This can devolve into relativism really, really quickly.

 

@Boba

You still haven't said anything new, nor have you supported your arguments or really gone into much depth at all.

 

@Th- I appreciate your rational approach and the fact that you're not simply reiterating something that's already been said.

 

Thanks for contributing.

Edited December 28, 2011 by _compton_

[MemphisIX]

I guess at the heart of this discussion lie differing views on what should make the game challening.

 

Me? I think it should be the mechanics themselves that present the challenge, whereas moving around and accessing my abilities in the easiest and smoothest way possible should be encouraged.

 

I see others here suggesting that not being able to click on someone easily is "part of the challenge" and therefore should stay as is.

 

In the latter case I'd opine, however, that you may as well get rid of hotkeys altogether, that will provide the ultimate challenge in PvP, I can assure you that.

[MemphisIX]

This.

 

It is indeed skill less.

 

What you are going to find is that there will be flavor of the month builds for classes and skills... but also FoTM macros as things are tested.

 

This you will have scoundrels and shadows (and mirrors) hitting a button, now they can completely focus on running around the target without pushing anything else.

 

Making these classes that take a tad of skill (even with it dumbed down a bit) into a class than anyone can do and be. So now we will have armies of shadows, armed with macros, running around circle strafing because they dont have to push any buttons with their mouse.

 

Woot!

 

 

Sorry man, macros are just being lazy. The only macro I can see having is an autoloot one, or maybe even an area autoloot. But we already have that.

 

So, clearly you don't play a Shadow. I do, and it's not button mashing, let me say that. I put a lot of care into my talent build, I use every single ability in my book, and after a while, I can finally see that I'm getting slightly better.

Besides, I don't know, maybe you don't allow macros that allow you to hit a button and do everything you need. No one here is asking for that, we just want enhanced functionality.

[_compton_]

I guess at the heart of this discussion lie differing views on what should make the game challening.

 

Me? I think it should be the mechanics themselves that present the challenge, whereas moving around and accessing my abilities in the easiest and smoothest way possible should be encouraged.

 

I see others here suggesting that not being able to click on someone easily is "part of the challenge" and therefore should stay as is.

 

In the latter case I'd opine, however, that you may as well get rid of hotkeys altogether, that will provide the ultimate challenge in PvP, I can assure you that.

 

A point I've been trying to make - but some of those in opposition just conveniently disregard whole portions of an argument and take things out of context.

 

Oh well.

 

Here's an analogy that pretty accurately represents the primary argument against focus macros/mouseover macros:

 

I feel like we should remove all forms of enhanced transportation from our society - sure, driving from LA to NY may be much more efficient, but I'd much rather walk across the country so I can better appreciate all of the sights - plus, I get exercise!

Edited December 28, 2011 by _compton_

[MemphisIX]

Macro - Computing a single instruction that expands automatically into a set of instructions to perform a particular task. (Oxford)

 

All macros are by definition automated. They are automating a process in which would normally be done by clicking the target to focus them. Now that our definition of macro is cleared up (unless of course you would like to argue with dictionary definitions, in which case we have much larger issues than macros in SWTOR).

 

Not to pick on your post but no, not all macros are like this. Some, most, are. But some simply allow for the use of 1 cast bar instead of 4, same buttons, same functionality, the only difference is a cleaner UI. That's a macro, and it doesn't fit your dictionary definition.

 

People need state at the end of their posts whether or not they EVER used macros. Some clearly haven't.

 

I, of course, always have, and continue to do so via peripherals, I just want to see them added to the game.

[NightHawke]

So, clearly you don't play a Shadow. I do, and it's not button mashing, let me say that. I put a lot of care into my talent build, I use every single ability in my book, and after a while, I can finally see that I'm getting slightly better.

Besides, I don't know, maybe you don't allow macros that allow you to hit a button and do everything you need. No one here is asking for that, we just want enhanced functionality.

 

Clearly I played a shadow in beta, and I currently play a scoundrel.

 

Explain to me enhanced functionality if you don't have a button push do everything for you or a series of everything for you, then what exactly do you think a macro does?

[Thaonnor]

I guess at the heart of this discussion lie differing views on what should make the game challening.

 

Me? I think it should be the mechanics themselves that present the challenge, whereas moving around and accessing my abilities in the easiest and smoothest way possible should be encouraged.

 

I see others here suggesting that not being able to click on someone easily is "part of the challenge" and therefore should stay as is.

 

In the latter case I'd opine, however, that you may as well get rid of hotkeys altogether, that will provide the ultimate challenge in PvP, I can assure you that.

 

I agree that the click box is small. But creating a macro to target someone is going around the even simpler solution of making the UI less clunky, where macros are not needed.

 

If the developers instead create a system in which macros are not needed, they keep things on a level playing field without the need to write or look up macros. I understand a healers pain as I too heal in war zones. However, I feel that with an improved raid frame UI for healers, they could eliminate the need that some people are seeing for macros.

 

To me, it falls on the developers to create a system that I do not have to resort to writing scripts or macros to play.

[bobaTBS]

@Boba

You still haven't said anything new, nor have you supported your arguments or really gone into much depth at all.

 

Why should I say something new when you didn't argue against the fact that focus macro makes the game easier and less complex other than saying that the complexity removed by addition of focus macro is "artificial raising of the skill cap" which is not an argument at all? Writing a wall of text in which you say absolutely nothing is not supporting your arguments.

Edited December 28, 2011 by bobaTBS

[_compton_]

Clearly I played a shadow in beta, and I currently play a scoundrel.

 

Explain to me enhanced functionality if you don't have a button push do everything for you or a series of everything for you, then what exactly do you think a macro does?

 

Again, you are completely missing the point and posting in ignorance because you failed to read the OP.

 

@Boba - I've honestly lost track of how many times you've refuted my statements and arguments, often without providing alternatives - as I said, your argument has not changed. It is jaded and simplistic.

 

To clarify one more time: focus macros increase the fluidity and speed of combat, both by allowing players to react faster to new developments, monitor and manage multiple targets, and because a healer can realistically expect to be interrupted if there are focus macros within game and has to account for and anticipate that eventuality (increasing the tactical complexity). Manually clicking targets only involves muscle twitch speed, lag, and how accurate your mouse is. That is artificial increasing of the skill cap when this game is inherently tactical, by nature.

 

Here's an analogy that pretty accurately summarizes the primary argument against focus macros/mouseover macros:

 

"I feel like we should remove all forms of enhanced transportation from our society - sure, driving from LA to NY may be much more efficient, but I'd much rather walk across the country so I can better appreciate all of the sights - plus, I get exercise!"

Edited December 28, 2011 by _compton_

[MemphisIX]

Clearly I played a shadow in beta, and I currently play a scoundrel.

 

Explain to me enhanced functionality if you don't have a button push do everything for you or a series of everything for you, then what exactly do you think a macro does?

 

Most of us played WoW, can I assume that?

 

I never, ever EVER even on PvE used macros that automated my class in any way, shape, or form. Not even standard rotations.

 

I wanted a cleaner UI, and to be able to easily access all my abilities at first. Then (playing a Boomkin in BC, one of the few) I started playing around with the notion that some abilities had no GCD, so I would combine two, or three, to make a single potent cast. I still had access to them individually, but sometimes in, certain conditions, I'd activate many at the same time, with a single button.

Notice I was still able to do most things even without this "enhanced functionality", which I will define as simply being able to do something faster. Instead of it taking 1 second, It'd take zero (measured from the point I hit the first ability).

 

In Arenas, I'd make it so targeting a healer ("focus") was easy, it would be displayed on my UI as well, regardless of who my actual target was, and I'd be able to interrupt them if need be, as soon as I noticed a cast. That was it, I wouldn't define it as "automation", I'd define it as "enhanced functionality", which I did : )

[bobaTBS]

@Boba - I've honestly lost track of how many times you've refuted my statements and arguments, often without providing alternatives - as I said, your argument has not changed. It is jaded and simplistic.

 

Here's an analogy that pretty accurately summarizes the primary argument against focus macros/mouseover macros:

 

I feel like we should remove all forms of enhanced transportation from our society - sure, driving from LA to NY may be much more efficient, but I'd much rather walk across the country so I can better appreciate all of the sights - plus, I get exercise!

 

And again you didn't argue against what I said, you just used another false analogy. Come back when you actually have an argument, cy@

[Thaonnor]

Again, you are completely missing the point and posting in ignorance because you failed to read the OP.

 

@Boba - I've honestly lost track of how many times you've refuted my statements and arguments, often without providing alternatives - as I said, your argument has not changed. It is jaded and simplistic.

 

Here's an analogy that pretty accurately summarizes the primary argument against focus macros/mouseover macros:

 

"I feel like we should remove all forms of enhanced transportation from our society - sure, driving from LA to NY may be much more efficient, but I'd much rather walk across the country so I can better appreciate all of the sights - plus, I get exercise!"

 

There are so many posts with the most obvious alternative in this thread that you must be blind or illiterate to think that they are not here.

 

Fix the systems, don't create an automated way to play the broken systems. There is the alternative right there.

[MemphisIX]

Another point I feel is not being stressed enough:

 

You anti-macro folk realize we still use macros right? I can set them right here on my keyboard no prob. So I still have them.

As I stated earlier, I'd like to see them placed into the game itself for two reasons:

1. Easier access.

2. A level playing field where you don't need special hardware to run your macros.

[Raggok]

Macros and UI Mods remove skill from the game, it doesn't add it. Heh.

 

In this game you can see the cast bars of enemy players who aren't your target. Try opening your eyes and play the game instead of some modded up UI telling what they are doing and what you need to do.

 

Look at what this crap led to in WoW, a UI mod that tells you what your enemy is doing with a voice sound file. Total crap.

[_compton_]

There are so many posts with the most obvious alternative in this thread that you must be blind or illiterate to think that they are not here.

 

Fix the systems, don't create an automated way to play the broken systems. There is the alternative right there.

 

Taking sentences out of context doesn't help you win arguments. Try reading it again, in context. A bit hypocritical to call me blind/illiterate, considering.

 

@Ragg - that type of thing is not what I or most of those in support of this are advocating for - again, actually reading the OP would really help.

 

Mem makes a good point. We can and still access this type of thing in other ways, regardless of official support for it. I advocate for support because I'd like to see PvP in this game become faster and more competitive, and because I'd like to level the field. My motives are not selfish, in fact I lose an advantage if macros are officially implemented within the game.

Edited December 28, 2011 by _compton_

[Thaonnor]

Another point I feel is not being stressed enough:

 

You anti-macro folk realize we still use macros right? I can set them right here on my keyboard no prob. So I still have them.

As I stated earlier, I'd like to see them placed into the game itself for two reasons:

1. Easier access.

2. A level playing field where you don't need special hardware to run your macros.

 

Completely different. Your macro cannot interact with game data, only keyboard & operating system functions. Putting a macro system in that allows an API of sorts to be used is definitely more advanced as far as automation of the game goes than using your keyboard and mouse macros.

[bobaTBS]

problem is, people should read your OP every 15 minutes because you edit it every time you realize your argument makes no sense.

[Thaonnor]

Taking sentences out of context doesn't help you win arguments. Try reading it again, in context. A bit hypocritical to call me blind/illiterate, considering.

 

@Ragg - that type of thing is not what I or most of those in support of this are advocating for - again, actually reading the OP would really help.

 

In context, it reads the exact same way. He is not providing alternatives. However, you obviously lack the ability to read anyone's alternatives, including the several that he has posted and you have not read or do not acknowledge.... All the while, your arguments are simply regurgitating the same debunked reasons why you should have macros.

 

On the plus side, the developers seem to agree with me rather than you, so its a win-win for me.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Thaonnor

[NightHawke]

Again, you are completely missing the point and posting in ignorance because you failed to read the OP.

 

@Boba - I've honestly lost track of how many times you've refuted my statements and arguments, often without providing alternatives - as I said, your argument has not changed. It is jaded and simplistic.

 

Here's an analogy that pretty accurately summarizes the primary argument against focus macros/mouseover macros:

 

I feel like we should remove all forms of enhanced transportation from our society - sure, driving from LA to NY may be much more efficient, but I'd much rather walk across the country so I can better appreciate all of the sights - plus, I get exercise!

 

Ok dude.. let me tell you about your OP.

 

You are saying you and "others"-

The lack of macro support in tandem with focus functionality inhibits me, and many others I've spoken with, from playing as effectively as we feel that we are capable of, and by extension, decreases the amount of enjoyment we can derive from PvPing in this game.

 

Because you cannot play like everyone else, you want to change the game and how it is played. Star Wars Galaxies did this... and we got the NGE. That is the New Game Experience. That turned out well because some people did not like the game and it was played. Not to mention the CU... Combat Upgrade....

 

 

Here's why: No one can deny, a large portion of SWTOR players are going to be coming either directly from WoW, or will at least be players with prior experience with that particularly behemoth. If you ask any competitive PvP player in WoW, focus and macro functionality are absolutely vital to maximize efficiency.

 

Think of it as going to the Land of the Lost.. .back to basics. Not everyone will find enjoyment or satisfaction of being buried playing against a guy who pushes a button to win.

 

But not supporting features that detract nothing from the game and would be welcomed (and the absence of which is already negatively affecting the experience of many people I know personally within the game) is silly.

 

Your opinion. I think you are wrong, but hey you think I am wrong. But don't say I didnt read your post. If so many people are repeating themselves to you, then maybe there is a valid point to their posts. How about reading those posts first.

 

Because you obviously know 800,000 people which is 1/4 of the population in this game to deem such a change.

 

Macros and focus are a staple within WoW particularly at end-game and proliferate even more at higher levels of competition, both within the PvP and PvE communities

 

Repeating yourself.

 

I'm positive that competitive PvE and PvP scenes are something that Bioware wants to cultivate and foster within TOR - the development of these scenes would benefit the game hugely.

 

I don't think so. If they did then there would be world pvp bonuses. As it stands it is another way to capture gear and taking a break from the normal gameplay.

 

There is nothing about macro and focus use that suggests "skill-less". Ask yourself, what is easier to manage? A single target, or multiple targets, each of which could be casting spells or performing abilities that you need to maintain awareness of at all times?

 

Nope, that is exactly what macros are. If they are put in, yep, I would have to use it to stay competitive. I will throw another analogy your way.. Imagine if they allowed steroids in professional sports.. the guys who dont want to use them, will be forced to do it, just to keep in the game. Yeah, lame right?

 

The only people who dislike macros in this context either were unable to use them properly, or were unwilling to even try using them initially.

 

I have used them, I don't like using them. They are lame, easy, and take away from the skill of playing the game against or with others. Skill means my skill, not some code.

 

Bottom line, macros, particularly in a PvP scenario and particularly in concert with focus, should be supported and available to those who wish to utilize them.

 

Again, your opinion.

 

My opinion, no. They should not be allowed. You have keyboards in place and mice that do macros. Use those. You can keybind just about everything anywhere. Use that functionality.

 

Finally, please, please discuss this. Opinions from every perspective are valid, and I know there are players who both vehemently support and oppose the advent of macros within TOR.

 

Can't do this. You continue label people trolls or none thinking idiots of they oppose you. What is the point right?

 

 

 

 

 

Is that reading your OP enough? Basically TLDR, I said everything that needed to be said in my first post here.

[MemphisIX]

Completely different. Your macro cannot interact with game data, only keyboard & operating system functions. Putting a macro system in that allows an API of sorts to be used is definitely more advanced as far as automation of the game goes than using your keyboard and mouse macros.

 

Oh, for the use I want out of macros, believe me, this is enough. I don't want any type of automation since it makes the game boring for me. What I've been saying all along is some macros don't fit into this category, and I feel they should be part of the game.

 

A macro that identifies a healer and instantly casts an interrupt? I agree that shouln't be in there.

 

A macro that let's me cast 3 non-GCD abilities at the same time? That I think should be in the game.

[_compton_]

problem is, people should read your OP every 15 minutes because you edit it every time you realize your argument makes no sense.

 

My OP is rational, logical, developed and my arguments are supported, all qualities that your arguments in contrast have been lacking.

 

@Night - perhaps you are unaware that I am still able to access these features regardless of official support. Hence, my motives are to level the playing field and, as I see it, improve the PvP in this game.

 

Again, you are missing the point. The macros that I am advocating for are not castsequence macros, and the automation involved is extremely minimal.

 

Also, again you are taking my words out of context, and avoiding addressing the material that you have no answer for.

 

Your "analysis" is selective and you choose not to address content that you have no arguments against. There's a lot of speculation and conjecture as well, tons of unsubstantiated claims, such as BWs initial perceived "lack of support" for world PvP being interpreted as them not caring about the scene as a whole. Try again.

 

@Th - If my arguments are chalk full of fallacies, why have you not exploited them? That's a pretty vague statement.

Edited December 28, 2011 by _compton_

[NightHawke]

Oh, for the use I want out of macros, believe me, this is enough. I don't want any type of automation since it makes the game boring for me.

 

A macro that let's me cast 3 non-GCD abilities at the same time? That I think should be in the game.

 

So you can push one button instead of 3, and the ability move of course so 4 buttons in total is ok?

 

How is that NOT automation?

[NightHawke]

My OP is rational, logical, developed and my arguments are supported, all qualities that your arguments in contrast have been lacking.

 

@Night - perhaps you are unaware that I am still able to access these features regardless of official support. Hence, my motives are to level the playing field and, as I see it, improve the PvP in this game.

 

Again, you are missing the point. The macros that I am advocating for are not castsequence macros, and the automation involved is extremely minimal.

 

It is very clear I understand. You did not read my text, you just saw I did not agree with you.