Is this lack of communication normal?

[ikinai]

People start threads with "edgy" titles to get views, much like any newspaper in the world does. Views increase activity, activity is what gets noticed...and just so you know, this is the internet, not the UN...

 

Wait a minute, not the UN? Dangit! I thought I was posting all this clever stuff to Sergei Lavrov. No wonder he hasn't called me back since the last ti... I mean, um, yeah, I'll uh, I'll be over there..

[TUXs]

Wait a minute, not the UN? Dangit! I thought I was posting all this clever stuff to Sergei Lavrov. No wonder he hasn't called me back since the last ti... I mean, um, yeah, I'll uh, I'll be over there..

Of course it's not the UN...this community isn't united on ANYTHING

[Tsetso]

Of course it's not the UN...this community isn't united on ANYTHING

 

Of course we're united. We all love forum pvp.

[ikinai]

Of course it's not the UN...this community isn't united on ANYTHING

 

So it is the UN!

[Jamtas]

Story has ALWAYS been the focus of this MMO, not exclusively but primarily. So this is nothing new.

 

Oh, I've been here forever and know that part- but when announcing and publicizing KOTFE it was "a return to bioware storytelling" and putting content like operations and such on hold to really focus on it.

It's important to differentiate that part. I'm not complaining the game has always had a focus on story - my issue was them making an announcement that they were going to focus on getting back to their storytelling roots and not being distracted by development on other aspects.

 

Choices, are another matter entirely.

 

I encourage people not to buy in to marketing hype. I also encourage people not to go negative as a first impulse to every challenge, and that includes myself. I encourage the studio to try to find a way to use more objective terms, or simply back off the marketing hype as it's too easily misunderstood, or open to personal interpretation. The result is missed expectations.

 

Again.. choices do matter in many cases, but not materially... not to the extent that they fundamentally change your personal story or game play. So the term is flawed to begin with in this context. There is the disconnect when you use a term that is not really objective (ie: open to wide and broad variance in interpretation from person to person.) Some players want choices to matter significantly, and they want it to matter the way they want it to matter. For an MMO this is fallacy by both the studio and the players in my view.

 

if the outcome is the same for the story, I'd argue that the choices do not matter. Eric used Koth as an example of choices mattering in KOTFE where I posted my objection and counter to that thought. A couple examples from ch 16 on choices not mattering:

 

 

Choose to Kill Arcann not once but twice and both times no difference. (I get they have use for him down the line, but don't make the user frustrated more than once on that choice)

Choosing which companion to do what (vette, gault, torian). Absolutely no difference made with exception of disapproval on vette/gualt side if asked to babysit. Past that, either one on guns or shield makes no difference in any way. Why bother even having this be a cutscene decision?

 

 

And if choices do not ultimately change the direction of the storyline, then no they do not matter. The types of chocie you are referring to are more like the options we had prior to KOTFE in the diaglogue, light/dark routes. Sure it may grant a different dialogue line and cutscene, but more than that not much a difference.

 

The old choose your own adventure stories had choices that mattered. Depending on what you did, the story branched and led to different endings at times. The choices didn't read:

 

1) slay the dragon, turn to page 12

2) walk away, turn to page 12

3) put on makeup and do a strip tease to distract dragon, turn to page 12

 

The issue with KOTFE is that all choices go to the same page.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Jamtas

[ikinai]

...

 

1) slay the dragon, turn to page 12

2) walk away, turn to page 12

3) put on makeup and do a strip tease to distract dragon, turn to page 12

 

The issue with KOTFE is that all choices go to the same page.

 

Dangit, what's on page 12? Now I have to know.

 

Grrr, you suckered me in, just like KotFE.

[Tsetso]

3) put on makeup and do a strip tease to distract dragon, turn to page 12

Ok, that's Pure Platinum

[TUXs]

The old choose your own adventure stories had choices that mattered. Depending on what you did, the story branched and led to different endings at times. The choices didn't read:

 

1) slay the dragon, turn to page 12

2) walk away, turn to page 12

3) put on makeup and do a strip tease to distract dragon, turn to page 12

 

The issue with KOTFE is that all choices go to the same page.

These are TERRIBLE choices...like who isn't gonna pick 3?! I mean, just to see what happens of course...right?!

[Tsetso]

These are TERRIBLE choices...like who isn't gonna pick 3?! I mean, just to see what happens of course...right?!

 

Yeah, that's called bait and switch. You decide to make striptease and the screen goes to black - ***?

[ikinai]

Yeah, that's called bait and switch. You decide to make striptease and the screen goes to black - ***?

 

Well, that's cause the dragon went to sleep waiting for me to do my makeup, sorry.

[SFDebris]

Yeah, that's called bait and switch.

Which makes it perfect for KOTFE!

[Deaconik]

Oh, I've been here forever and know that part- but when announcing and publicizing KOTFE it was "a return to bioware storytelling" and putting content like operations and such on hold to really focus on it.

It's important to differentiate that part. I'm not complaining the game has always had a focus on story - my issue was them making an announcement that they were going to focus on getting back to their storytelling roots and not being distracted by development on other aspects.

 

 

 

 

if the outcome is the same for the story, I'd argue that the choices do not matter. Eric used Koth as an example of choices mattering in KOTFE where I posted my objection and counter to that thought. A couple examples from ch 16 on choices not mattering:

 

 

Choose to Kill Arcann not once but twice and both times no difference. (I get they have use for him down the line, but don't make the user frustrated more than once on that choice)

Choosing which companion to do what (vette, gault, torian). Absolutely no difference made with exception of disapproval on vette/gualt side if asked to babysit. Past that, either one on guns or shield makes no difference in any way. Why bother even having this be a cutscene decision?

 

 

And if choices do not ultimately change the direction of the storyline, then no they do not matter. The types of chocie you are referring to are more like the options we had prior to KOTFE in the diaglogue, light/dark routes. Sure it may grant a different dialogue line and cutscene, but more than that not much a difference.

 

The old choose your own adventure stories had choices that mattered. Depending on what you did, the story branched and led to different endings at times. The choices didn't read:

 

1) slay the dragon, turn to page 12

2) walk away, turn to page 12

3) put on makeup and do a strip tease to distract dragon, turn to page 12

 

 

The issue with KOTFE is that all choices go to the same page.

 

Oh, if this is the return to BW story telling, then I probably skip Andromeda out of pure fear. This. Is. Not. Even. Close. To. A. Classic. BW. Storytelling.

[Saregon]

I see we have unsurprisingly reverted back to Maintenance Tracker. GG BW

[_Colonel_]

This is my first post here, despite I'm a subscriber for about 5 years.

I'll post it here as probably nobody in BW read or write in the french forum (well except server maintenance).

I don't read all the posts (sorry) but still, I have some questions :

- Do BW have any plan to consolidate servers and / or change price of personnal transfer with legacy to less than 100CC ? Do BW will do this before end of 2016 ?

- Does nearly empty servers is interesting for players ? for BW ?

- Do KOTET will be exactly as KOTFE ? KOTFE is interesting, three or four times, not really more as was the 8 initial stories.

- I know you will not answer but will there be some PVE and PVP in KOTET ? Nearly 2 years without new content for PVE. It's a bit long for some kind of MMO.

- Don't you think we have quite enough companions ? Don't you have any other ideas than give another one at each chapter ? Yes two but...

- Does our choice will have real impact on storyline ? For now except loosing companions (among 30 ?) our choices in the story had very low impact !

 

Thank you, May the force blablabla

Edited September 21, 2016 by _Colonel_

[OneHit]

Hey Musco,

 

Here is a good read for you bud.

 

http://www.pcgamer.com/what-its-like-to-manage-a-gaming-community-on-fire/?utm_content=buffer24b13&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=buffer_pcgamerfb

[Tsillah]

- Do BW have any plan to consolidate servers and / or change price of personnal transfer with legacy to less than 100CC ? Do BW will do this before end of 2016 ?

 

No plans have been communicated. The cost of transfers is 1000CC and it was 90CC for over a year so if you're a five year sub, you have had plenty of time to transfer your characters I would think.

 

- Does nearly empty servers is interesting for players ? for BW ?

 

I know some players prefer emptier servers, but I have no idea how many people are like that.

 

- Do KOTET will be exactly as KOTFE ? KOTFE is interesting, three or four times, not really more as was the 8 initial stories.

 

KotET is the continuation of KotFE and so it can be expected it will go along the same lines. I agree the replay value is a lot less than the original story but KotET will also be one story for all as far as we know.

 

- I know you will not answer but will there be some PVE and PVP in KOTET ? Nearly 2 years without new content for PVE. It's a bit long for some kind of MMO.

 

It's very long. They said there will be new group content in KotET but they have refused to say what. We should get a lot more information on October 7th as they said.

 

- Don't you think we have quite enough companions ? Don't you have any other ideas than give another one at each chapter ? Yes two but...

 

For some people it can never be enough. I also ignore most of the new companions, but personally I am more concerned about getting back some of our old companions. I really don't need more new companions either.

 

- Does our choice will have real impact on storyline ? For now except loosing companions (among 30 ?) our choices in the story had very low impact !

 

Well, I do not expect KotET to be much different in that, but I guess we'll find out. The KotFE story didn't make a whole lot of sense and with all the companions that are woven into the story I think there is a certain level of complexity behind the story that makes it actually difficult to give much room to choices that really make a difference.

 

I know I'm not BW, but as you said, they probably won't answer you.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Tsillah

[Icykill_]

Hey Musco,

 

Here is a good read for you bud.

 

http://www.pcgamer.com/what-its-like-to-manage-a-gaming-community-on-fire/?utm_content=buffer24b13&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=buffer_pcgamerfb

 

I specifically liked these quotes by the two community managers in the article.

 

says Whipple. “If you’ve done what you can do, and the only thing left is to ensure the feedback keeps making its way to the developers, it’s usually not going to add a lot of value to continue to agonize over people’s anger or continue engaging and repeating yourself. The trap you have to work hard to avoid is considering it solved, and disengaging from it entirely. Those things can smolder and burn for a long time if they’re not put out decisively enough.”

 

Says Alex Leary “You have to stay tapped-in,” he says. “If you can’t keep that in balance and you start tuning out and ignoring customers… you want to make people feel listened to. You want to empower those advocates, those hardcore players who will then turn around at 3am when you’re not on the forums and have your back. That’s how you keep the pitchforks away.”

 

While the article pointed out some of the darker sides these community managers have to put up with, both these guys understood the fundamentals of why communities need to be managed and not ignored.

 

Whipple also worked out - “I think it actually woke me up a bit, and made me realize my employment with any company is a partnership, and not any kind of debt or life-oath that I need to repay,”

 

We don't know if Eric is getting the proper support from Bio/EA or if they are fundamentally tying his hands together and preventing him doing the job properly.

 

Then there is the mental effect that a job like a CM can have -

“[being a community manager] requires a huge amount of empathy, so of course if you’re reading negativity day in and day out it’s difficult not to take at least some of that with you,” continues Whipple. “With enough experience you can kind of catch it before it gets bad and take a step back, but more than a couple times I found myself in really dark depressive states for quite a while just due to, essentially, surrounding myself for eight hours a day with people’s hate. Pile on top of that just all the standard stuff that’s going on in life, and it can get very real very quickly. Looking back, and having a better understanding of what depression actually looks and feels like, it’s probably something I should’ve sought professional help for.”

 

Maybe Eric is burnt out from all the type of hate that the article pointed out, maybe not. Who knows. If he is, then maybe he needs a break from the cycle and have a new, not another recycled, community manager take over the reigns for awhile. Eric could then move into another internal role that doesn't expose him to the darker side of the forums.

I don't envy Eric's role. It would be extremely exhausting emotionally, even if you don't take things to heart and have a thick skin. At some point things leaks through.

 

None of us know what is happening on the Bioware side of things. Any and all of what I've theorised could be true. It could all be false and Bioware/Eric just don't give a rats about the community. But it would be good if someone actually listened at Bioware and tried to understand what those other CM's clearly understood.

[DrewFromPhilly]

Why even bother? All you'll get out of posting questions is:

 

1. Vague non-commitall assurances that never amount to anything

2. An attempt to protect BW by hiding the ugly truth behind a wall of ambiguity

 

It's obvious there will not be any operations any time soon, and it's also obvious that KOTET will be predominantly single player content.

 

They said themselves only this past January that group content was in the very early conceptual phases, which means nothing had been at all. Assuming they were even talking about an operation, to go from that point to a finished operation in less than a year is simply not feasible for BW Austin given their track record. It's likely they will include something along the lines of the star fortress heroics with KOTET, and it's probably what he was referring to by "group content." Short, simplistic, and easy to produce group instances that won't overly impact the resources they've devoted to KOTET's "story"

 

Do not get your hopes up.

Edited September 22, 2016 by DrewFromPhilly

[Rolodome]

Hey Musco,

 

Here is a good read for you bud.

 

http://www.pcgamer.com/what-its-like-to-manage-a-gaming-community-on-fire/?utm_content=buffer24b13&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=buffer_pcgamerfb

It is a good read. That said:

 

The part that always irks me about articles like these. And just narratives about the bad side of gaming communities in general... is how ironically negative they are (it's ironic because they're talking about the horrors of negative communities and painting a mostly bleak picture). Acknowledgement of the people who are mostly calm and supportive is relegated to footnote status, while everyone remembers the 0.000000001% of players who made death threats.

 

The prevailing thing that stands out to me from all of those CMs (and this is not their fault, it's the fault of the human brain) is that players are ultimately numbers to them. Building relationships and all, sure... some of them try. But when you're dealing with thousands or millions of people, you can only do that to such a degree.

 

And so, if 60% of communication from the community is raw negativity, that's what the majority of the experience is going to feel like.

 

I think what CMs would really benefit from is psychological training, particularly in the realm of nonviolent communication and understanding needs (see: the CNVC).

 

Reason being, what players say they want and what they actually want can be two vastly different things. And I think many of us, when we get negative, we might want a solution, but more than that we just want to feel like we're not being dropped in a ditch. The fulfillment we're looking for is largely emotional. So when some big thing blows up and people get crazy, it's easy to dismiss it as mob mentality and decry the horrors of runaway anger, but if you look at how mobs work in RL (in particular, rioting in poor communities) it's usually got something to do with people feeling that the-powers-that-be couldn't care less about their needs.

 

Now I'm not saying it's all on the CM, cause if the CM wants to be empathetic and their hands are tied by company mumbo jumbo, then obviously that's beyond them. But just as a general approach to communication, I think the reality is that part of the reason so much raw anger comes out of gaming communities is because it's pretty common practice for developers to irrevocably change things, with no warning and/or with not a single **** given about how people feel.

 

That doesn't justify ****** behavior from players, but in terms of contribution to the situation, we need to look at both sides.

 

I mean, imagine if you woke up tomorrow and gravity didn't exist anymore. Games are virtual, but virtual worlds are like a microcosm for the real world in that way. And to log in and find that the rules have changed can be pretty psychologically jarring. It's one of the reasons I find it so vexing that so many companies now are so deathly silent about everything. On the one hand, I get it completely; they're trying to avoid making promises they can't keep and generally being crucified while they try to do their job. On the other, I feel like they're doing the worst possible thing they could do... be the personification of a god who only communicates through action, doesn't seem to clarify whether he loves you or hates you, and worst of all, is actually human and everybody knows it, so is not immune to criticism and persecution.

 

If all you do is communicate through action, every change that people hate is going to be interpreted as "we hate you." Same with good things "we love you." Same idea with talking... if you only ever speak up to give bad news and say no, that's going to be interpreted as "I don't want to talk to you and probably dislike you." If you talk when you have good and bad news, and say both yes and no, and generally say enough to come across as a whole human being and not a company line bot, peoples' natural empathy will kick in and they'll be a lot kinder and a lot more defensive of what you do and say in general. That goes for both CMs and developers communicating in general.

 

Case in point, seeing Eric in a video interview made me see him as a whole human being. Prior to that, he was just a disembodied voice box in my mind. It's hard for me to feel anything for a person until I've seen them show moments of vulnerability... signs that they're a human being. Most people can put on a face for a job, but being real isn't always easy. And it seems to be the humanity that calms people most of all, not the perfect utterance of company lines.

[SFDebris]

It is a good read. That said:

 

The part that always irks me about articles like these. And just narratives about the bad side of gaming communities in general... is how ironically negative they are (it's ironic because they're talking about the horrors of negative communities and painting a mostly bleak picture). Acknowledgement of the people who are mostly calm and supportive is relegated to footnote status, while everyone remembers the 0.000000001% of players who made death threats.

 

Not to mention that if the only way to try to provide feedback is to scream into a pit and hope against hope the echo says something back is going to lend itself to frustration. There's no excuse for abusing CM's of course, but there is definitely a problem for the frustrated community that its concerns are not even acknowledged in many cases.

[Andryah]

Not to mention that if the only way to try to provide feedback is to scream into a pit and hope against hope the echo says something back is going to lend itself to frustration. There's no excuse for abusing CM's of course, but there is definitely a problem for the frustrated community that its concerns are not even acknowledged in many cases.

 

How frustrations are expressed is the core issue though. Some players think they can say and do anything they want in order to get attention. Another issue is players believing they can behave any way they like in the name of provoking responses from the studio to their particular questions/demands, even after the studio may have already responded on the topic and it was not the answer they wanted.

 

The CM role in any gaming community is a thankless task. It really is. Given the number of players that are active on a commercial game, it's a given that there will always be some who are disgruntled, some with lots of anger. That, per se, is not the studios fault. People need to learn to manage their own emotions and expectations, not just heap all the burden on the CMs and demand they satisfy.

 

While a lack of communication "on demand" can be something some people get really worked up about, it does not excuse the constant attacking and denigrating of the studio staff.

 

Embrace the communications you do receive, and be patient beyond that, IMO. Bad as this studio may be about their overall communications process, they DO communicate and they do disclose expac info in advance of release. Not enough to satisfy the dissatisfied, IMO, but I also think no matter what is communicated, a person determined to feel dissatisfied will dig in heels over it. If someone thinks the game sucks right now, IMO, then unsub and wait for the info to roll out on the expac and then decide if it attracts you to resub or not.

 

The studio AND the players share blame in this whole perpetual angst and faux-prosecution over "communications" and what is/is-not normal. And given how many voices are at play here, there is no way the studio+players can ever make complete peace on the matter of information, game features, etc.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Andryah

[OneHit]

How frustrations are expressed is the core issue though. Some players think they can say and do anything they want in order to get attention. Another issue is players believing they can behave any way they like in the name of provoking responses from the studio to their particular questions/demands, even after the studio may have already responded on the topic and it was not the answer they wanted.

 

The CM role in any gaming community is a thankless task. It really is. Given the number of players that are active on a commercial game, it's a given that there will always be some who are disgruntled, some with lots of anger. That, per se, is not the studios fault. People need to learn to manage their own emotions and expectations, not just heap all the burden on the CMs and demand they satisfy.

 

While a lack of communication "on demand" can be something some people get really worked up about, it does not excuse the constant attacking and denigrating of the studio staff.

 

Embrace the communications you do receive, and be patient beyond that, IMO. Bad as this studio may be about their overall communications process, they DO communicate and they do disclose expac info in advance of release. Not enough to satisfy the dissatisfied, IMO, but I also think no matter what is communicated, a person determined to feel dissatisfied will dig in heels over it. If someone thinks the game sucks right now, IMO, then unsub and wait for the info to roll out on the expac and then decide if it attracts you to resub or not.

 

The studio AND the players share blame in this whole perpetual angst and faux-prosecution over "communications" and what is/is-not normal. And given how many voices are at play here, there is no way the studio+players can ever make complete peace on the matter of information, game features, etc.

 

 

I don't think anyone expects communication on demand. or for their concerns to always be met. i think their would be less frustration with a simple acknowledgement and discussion on their part. they remain silent here. And its not doing anyone any good if it just angers the community further

[DarthWoad]

How frustrations are expressed is the core issue though. Some players think they can say and do anything they want in order to get attention. Another issue is players believing they can behave any way they like in the name of provoking responses from the studio to their particular questions/demands, even after the studio may have already responded on the topic and it was not the answer they wanted.

 

The CM role in any gaming community is a thankless task. It really is. Given the number of players that are active on a commercial game, it's a given that there will always be some who are disgruntled, some with lots of anger. That, per se, is not the studios fault. People need to learn to manage their own emotions and expectations, not just heap all the burden on the CMs and demand they satisfy.

 

 

So you are saying it's the customers fault for being disgruntled and angry at the service (or lack of) they are getting?

 

100% disagree.

While a lack of communication "on demand" can be something some people get really worked up about, it does not excuse the constant attacking and denigrating of the studio staff.

 

Obviously attacking the studio without reason isn't something I agree with. But people have valid reasons for anger.

 

 

Embrace the communications you do receive, and be patient beyond that, IMO. Bad as this studio may be about their overall communications process, they DO communicate and they do disclose expac info in advance of release. Not enough to satisfy the dissatisfied, IMO, but I also think no matter what is communicated, a person determined to feel dissatisfied will dig in heels over it. If someone thinks the game sucks right now, IMO, then unsub and wait for the info to roll out on the expac and then decide if it attracts you to resub or not.

 

This is where I disagree with you even more. As a paying customer, I'm not going to sit here and hope for the best. I never do pre orders. I want to know exactly what I am getting when I pay for something, I want to know if I'm going to continue my subscription or not based on the upcoming content I'm going to recieve. "Unsub now and wait until it comes out" you say? Well it's not as easy as that. I have things to do in game, my guild has things to do. Does our guild start doing operations to gear up in preparation for 5.0? Do I keep playing the game and earn credits to buy upcoming new cosmetic items?

 

If we start gearing up for 5.0 now, and we later discover there are no raids or other group content after release, we would have wasted our time and money, and it's lkely my guild would disband and leave the game. Yes, we know it's not a job. But this is an MMO, they are supposed to grow and evolve and improve. We are giving a monthly fee to this game to play the premium service. There are plenty of other MMOs out there which are completely free. But I am paynig for a premium service, I am supporting the games development. Ultimately the information we are given should tell us what we are getting if we subscribe the next month, if we should continue subscribing and supporting development or not. I want to build up hype, i want to encourage my friends to start playing the game again, but I can't do that if I have no information.

 

The studio AND the players share blame in this whole perpetual angst and faux-prosecution over "communications" and what is/is-not normal. And given how many voices are at play here, there is no way the studio+players can ever make complete peace on the matter of information, game features, etc.

 

I completely disagree.

 

I think the decision ultimately comes on a mix between the players and the moderators. Most of these unconstructive "rage" posts, not the "passive aggressive provoking" ones (which can also be constructive), should be removed as they aren't constructive. It's the job of the forum members to report anything they see unfit and for the moderators to remove these posts and threads.

 

But to say that the community people are "scared" of posting is nonsense, IMO.

Edited September 22, 2016 by DarthWoad

[TUXs]

Hey Musco,

 

Here is a good read for you bud.

 

http://www.pcgamer.com/what-its-like-to-manage-a-gaming-community-on-fire/?utm_content=buffer24b13&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=buffer_pcgamerfb

Wow...VERY good article and some great wisdom to be gleaned from it.

[Transcendent]

The CM role

 

This part stands out to me. I've rarely seen a Community Manager actually be able to manage the expectations of any gaming community. I think too much emphasis is placed on the title of Community Manager, the title itself really needs a rethink overall (not just in this game, but overall as an industry).

 

Perhaps more appropriate would be Community Developers Liason, someone who disseminates information in a two way manner between the community of a game, and the developers of a game. Effectively acting as a "buffer". Which is essentially what a Community Manager does, by and large. It would highlight that the person in the role is only the messenger, and shooting the messenger is generally not the done thing.

 

It would certainly help invdividuals in the role manage expectations of what they can actually do a little better, and also enable them to inform players that is all they can do, act as a messenger.