EQN dead, Wildstar dying...swtor?

[Codedrago]

TOR was supposed to kill LotRO and Wild Snore was supposed to kill TOR. Neither came to pass (although LotRO is kind of withering).

 

Tor was supposed to kill WoW. But then again, EVERY MMO is supposed to kill WoW

[Andryah]

Know what's really dead, this topic.. It has been on these forums since launch, seriously don't people have some grasp of reality too, I don't know move on..

 

Game is still here after a very long endless talk of it dying, perhaps if a big fing comet hit the earth, then I would say officially this game would be over...

 

Yep yep.

 

SWTOR appears to have more lives then Super-Cat.

[trueKieran]

You don't even have the fortitude to follow up on your own "threats":

 

Ok kid, I was going to let it rest, but you brought this on yourself. That line was a) not a threat and b) about the so called "doom-threads".

 

Now back on topic:

Not "will." "should." The "will" part is after, about extending it to companions.

 

They made all kinds of "should" statements in the early days of the game. A large number of the "shoulds" never made it to PTS, much less the live servers. Clearly... "should" /= "will".

 

 

Both you and Andryah made it pretty clear that you're not acknowledging this as a promise because it didn't read "will come out", well lets take a closer look again, shall we?

 

NiklasWB: When will you make it possible for Force-using characters to pull up/down their hoods on their robes?

 

Damion Schubert: This is in the works now. It won't be in Game Update 1.2, but should get done in the next major update after that. And yes, we will extend this functionality to your Force-slinging companions as well.

 

As you yourself pointed out, they did use "will" for the second part, "we will extend this", not "we may" or "should" or anything else, so by your own definition this one is a promise. Well guess what genius, you can't very well extend a feature that you're not going to implement, so if the extention is promised, so is by necessity the feature itself. And no, there's no chance to see the second as "if it comes", there's nothing even remotely in there that suggests a probability, it clearly says "We will".

 

Now either you start to accept the reality that you were just wrong here like an adult, or you can crawl back under your rock and pretend to live in your own little universe where things work differently, because if that's not a promise, then the only promises in MMOs are the patch notes, and that's absurd. Of course you can also just follow the example of your friend up there and just put me on your ignore list, that's fine by me too.

Edited March 17, 2016 by trueKieran

[Ansultares]

Things just ain't what they used to be. MMO's circa early 2000's were more about roleplaying and just being immersed into the world. It was a pleasure to walk around everywhere on foot, to take in the scenery. There was a sense of magic that is totally gone for the most part nowadays. The fun in gaming back then was just playing the game. Now people gripe if they have to click more then 4 buttons, or sit through a cut scene.

I had the chance last fall to play a circa-2000 MMO, Asheron's Call. The lack of understanding these days as to what makes an MMO world engaging is self-evident.

[Vhaegrant]

As you yourself pointed out, they did use "will" for the second part, "we will extend this", not "we may" or "should" or anything else, so by your own definition this one is a promise. Well guess what genius, you can't very well extend a feature that you're not going to implement, so if the extention is promised, so is by necessity the feature itself. And no, there's no chance to see the second as "if it comes", there's nothing even remotely in there that suggests a probability, it clearly says "We will".

I don't normally like to join other people's semantic battles but...

 

Let's try this another way

Me: 'I'm currently planning my summer holiday. Should I get my bonus I will take you with me.'

Several months pass...

Friend: 'When are we going on that holiday'

Me: 'Sorry company underperformed because of an unexpected market downturn, no bonuses, pay rise frozen for two years. Can't afford a holiday this year.'

Friend: 'But you said you WILL take me.'

Me: 'Sorry mate, that was a conditional on me getting a bonus that at the time seemed likely. If it makes you any happier I'm not getting a holiday either.'

Friend: 'You suck. You are the worst friend ever. You break all your promises.'

Me: 'How do you even...!?'

[TUXs]

I don't normally like to join other people's semantic battles but...

 

Let's try this another way

Me: 'I'm currently planning my summer holiday. Should I get my bonus I will take you with me.'

Several months pass...

Friend: 'When are we going on that holiday'

Me: 'Sorry company underperformed because of an unexpected market downturn, no bonuses, pay rise frozen for two years. Can't afford a holiday this year.'

Friend: 'But you said you WILL take me.'

Me: 'Sorry mate, that was a conditional on me getting a bonus that at the time seemed likely. If it makes you any happier I'm not getting a holiday either.'

Friend: 'You suck. You are the worst friend ever. You break all your promises.'

Me: 'How do you even...!?'

Except you put a disclaimer in yours...they didn't.

 

It's more like your boss asking when to expect your proposal on his desk and you saying:

"This is in the works now. It won't be in tonight, but should get done in the next week."

 

When do YOU think he would expect it? Do you think that is a commitment to have it done in a week? Do you think he'd be okay with it if 3 years later you still hadn't completed it?

[Vhaegrant]

Except you put a disclaimer in yours...they didn't.

 

It's more like your boss asking when to expect your proposal on his desk and you saying:

"This is in the works now. It won't be in tonight, but should get done in the next week."

 

When do YOU think he would expect it? Do you think that is a commitment to have it done in a week? Do you think he'd be okay with it if 3 years later you still hadn't completed it?

Um, no.

 

Writing a report is one task.

'In the works.' with regards to implementing a new feature in a computer game comprises many stages, the core three being design document, basic asset building, Q&A pass.

I doubt the design document would have been the stumbling block, after all 'character/companion animated to raise/lower hood' just about covers it. But implementing that is a whole different ball game.

I vaguely remember a comment from one of the Q&As at a Cantina mentioning it was curtailed because the devs weren't happy with the bald under hood to hairy head transition phase.

 

So what looks easy on a quick glimpse at the design doc can run into unforeseen complications that may not make it past the Q&A.

[trueKieran]

I don't normally like to join other people's semantic battles

 

That's probably because you aren't any good at it.

 

Should I get my bonus I will take you with me.

This is entirely different. They didn't write "should it get done, we will expand it". Other than in your example, "should" in their statement isn't even used as "if it gets done" but "when it gets done". This is how your example should read to qualify as comarison:

 

"I'm currently planning my summer holiday. I should get my bonus soon. And yes, I will take you with me."

 

I suggest you either try a little harder next time or just go back to "what you normally do", because this is actually a really simple case about a feature, that lost it's necessity years ago and was merely mentioned as an example, and I'm getting a little tired here explaining it to every 4 year old who doesn't get it.

Edited March 17, 2016 by trueKieran

[TUXs]

So what looks easy on a quick glimpse at the design doc can run into unforeseen complications that may not make it past the Q&A.

You're probably right...their Q&A team is a shining example of competence and professionalism. Nothing shabby gets past them.

[Ansultares]

Not surprised EQN fell apart. My first exposure left me feeling mostly positive about it; great to see developers engaging in the collection of feedback, even if I was more than suspicious about the alpha/beta players they were getting feedback from.

 

My second exposure to EQN related to that legacy system (or whatever the hell its called). Any hope I had for the game was instantly crushed.

 

But the OP is comparing apples to oranges (SWTOR v Wildstar), and apples to lettuce (SWTOR v EQN). Neither comparison is revealing of SWTOR or its future.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Ansultares

[trueKieran]

By the way TUXs, an honest thanks for helping out. I just wish it wasn't so time-consuming to get people to understand the bloody obvious... maybe at least it goes faster when two people try.

[TUXs]

By the way TUXs, an honest thanks for helping out. I just wish it wasn't so time-consuming to get people to understand the bloody obvious... maybe at least it goes faster when two people try.

Of course And nah, just gives them twice as many people to disagree with

[trueKieran]

Of course And nah, just gives them twice as many people to disagree with

 

Right again I'm afraid.

[Vhaegrant]

That's probably because you aren't any good at it.

Probably.

This is entirely different. They didn't write "should it get done, we will expand it". Other than in your example, "should" in their statement isn't even used as "if it gets done" but "when it gets done". This is how your example should read to qualify as comarison:

 

"I'm currently planning my summer holiday. I should get my bonus soon. And yes, I will take you with me."

 

I suggest you either try a little harder next time or just go back to "what you normally do", because this is actually a really simple case about a feature, that lost it's necessity years ago and was merely mentioned as an example, and I'm getting a little tired here explaining it to every 4 year old who doesn't get it.

How do you go from a work in progress 'should' be included down the line to 'will' be included is beyond me. Probably because you've had little experience with the real world and how projects develop in a dynamic workplace.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Vhaegrant

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I don't normally like to join other people's semantic battles but...

 

Let's try this another way

Me: 'I'm currently planning my summer holiday. Should I get my bonus I will take you with me.'

Several months pass...

Friend: 'When are we going on that holiday'

Me: 'Sorry company underperformed because of an unexpected market downturn, no bonuses, pay rise frozen for two years. Can't afford a holiday this year.'

Friend: 'But you said you WILL take me.'

Me: 'Sorry mate, that was a conditional on me getting a bonus that at the time seemed likely. If it makes you any happier I'm not getting a holiday either.'

Friend: 'You suck. You are the worst friend ever. You break all your promises.'

Me: 'How do you even...!?'

 

Sorry but I fail to see how your example actually matches the text he quoted from Bioware? There was never any mention of anything happening should they meet certain goals that I am seeing?

[trueKieran]

Probably.

Either you have a very bad day or that should read "certainly".

 

How do you go from a work in progress 'should' be included down the line to 'will' be included is beyond me. Probably because you've had little experience with the real world and how projects develop in a dynamic workplace.

Well if you know so much about me, tell me then, what exactly are my experiences regarding software engineering? And while you're at it, explain to me what degree and how many years in this business I'll need to correctly interpret a statement of two lines that doesn't even contain a technical term.

Edited March 17, 2016 by trueKieran

[Khevar]

Either you have a very bad day or that should read "certainly".

 

 

Well if you know so much about me, tell me then, what exactly are my experiences regarding software engineering? And while you're at it, explain to me what degree and how many years in this business I'll need to correctly interpret a statement of two lines that doesn't even contain a technical term.

Genuinely curious, but what are you hoping to accomplish by continuing to argue this point?

 

It's apparent that they did promise it. It's also apparent the didn't follow through. There are plenty of other promises (e.g. about the cadence of release of flashpoint and operations content) that also never happened.

 

Perhaps I'm simply cynical, but I'm used to broken promises by game developers. Heck, I'm still waiting for the day when Peter Molyneux says something that actually turns out to be true.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Genuinely curious, but what are you hoping to accomplish by continuing to argue this point?

 

It's apparent that they did promise it. It's also apparent the didn't follow through. There are plenty of other promises (e.g. about the cadence of release of flashpoint and operations content) that also never happened.

 

Perhaps I'm simply cynical, but I'm used to broken promises by game developers. Heck, I'm still waiting for the day when Peter Molyneux says something that actually turns out to be true.

 

Now, now Peter can't help all these "circumstances beyond our control" that always seem to occur to him in particular.

[trueKieran]

Genuinely curious, but what are you hoping to accomplish by continuing to argue this point?

 

It's apparent that they did promise it. It's also apparent the didn't follow through. There are plenty of other promises (e.g. about the cadence of release of flashpoint and operations content) that also never happened.

 

Perhaps I'm simply cynical, but I'm used to broken promises by game developers. Heck, I'm still waiting for the day when Peter Molyneux says something that actually turns out to be true.

This is apparently a mystery to many here even though I've already tried to explain it... whatever, might aswell give it one last shot. I've already made it clear here

As for your question about what I'm going to do about it? Nothing. Over the course of the next few months after that statement, each time they were asked it, it became clearer that it will never happen. It went from this to "it is something we are still working on" to finally "something we really want to do". So I've stopped waiting and caring for it years ago, also because, since we now have plenty of robes with hoods down that republic characters can wear, it became obsolete. The entire quote of my old post and them never actually finishing the hood toggle was merely an example.

that at this point, I've stopped caring for the hood toggle a long time ago and that I just used it as an example, so why am I still typing in this thread? It's pretty simple actually. It should also be apparent that after mentioning it the first time, I never complained about it not being in the game, I merely pointed out, repeatedly, that they did indeed promise the feature like I stated. Why? Because by claiming that Bioware never did promise it, these people here are basically accusing me of making that part up, of telling a lie or make a false claim and I'm not going to sit here and take that, especially when the proof for my statement is in plain sight on the very same *********** webpage!

 

It does however have another posetive side effect I didn't think about at first. As you pointed out already, one broken promise isn't really a big deal, especially when like in this case, what was promised isn't even needed anymore. In fact if that was all that Bioware did wrong, I'd personally vote for them as best company to run a MMO, it just isn't, it's just one more thing in a long list. So the people, who go into full denial mode because they can't even admit that Bioware screwed this up, are certainly not the ones you can talk to about how to make the game better, because basically everything you'll say will be offensive to them. So if some of them put me on ignore now, that will save me from having to deal with their ignorance in future threads.

[Vhaegrant]

Well if you know so much about me, tell me then, what exactly are my experiences regarding software engineering? And while you're at it, explain to me what degree and how many years in this business I'll need to correctly interpret a statement of two lines that doesn't even contain a technical term.

Judging from your expectations and affront against hoods I'd say bordering on zero.

I would have hoped basic life experiences by the time you leave school would have helped you understand that there are no certainties in life. Bearing in mind shortly after the statement about whether hood raise 'should' make it into the game the planned direction was halted and pretty much diverted to getting the cartel market up and running and the transition to a hybrid model.

You seem to have an overly aggressive tone to your discussions, and an overly simplistic grasp of where a developers priorities should lie in developing a game.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

/popcorn

[Pagy]

since wow, studios have been foaming at the mouth for a piece of the mmo pie

 

except the mmo market is shrinking rapidly. in the last 10 years, you can lose count over the number of mmos released that had no hope in hell of succeeding but they kept trying and trying and trying.

 

when blizzard decides to can an mmo project, you know you should cut your losses.

[DarthDymond]

Trying to twist "should be the next patch or two" into "they never promised we'd get it" is an... interesting exercise in interpretation, I suppose.

 

But it's ultimately kind of superfluous - they've always maintained the general disclaimer that "anything we say about future plans is subject to change." That's just what happened here: they had plans for something, they've always said that any plans might change, and this particular plan changed.

 

That being said, while they have every right to play the "all plans are tenative and subject to change" card, the more often they actually do so, the more reasonable it becomes for players to meet any / all of their announcements with open skepticism.

[CarpeSangrea]

You really are fixated on the group queue as the sole indicator of game success / life, aren't you?

 

Well for an MMO where the primary method for participating in ANYTHING is queues, he's not wrong. Even giants like WoW are feeling this problem.

[trueKieran]

Judging from your expectations and affront against hoods I'd say bordering on zero.

I would have hoped basic life experiences by the time you leave school would have helped you understand that there are no certainties in life. Bearing in mind shortly after the statement about whether hood raise 'should' make it into the game the planned direction was halted and pretty much diverted to getting the cartel market up and running and the transition to a hybrid model.

You seem to have an overly aggressive tone to your discussions, and an overly simplistic grasp of where a developers priorities should lie in developing a game.

 

You're a goldmine pal. Do me the favor of quoting what I wrote that gave you the insight of that hightlighted part, will you? Also just so we're on the same page, what exactly do you think my expectations are, from which you're judging?