Damage Meters

[Magwa]

I know, I know, I’m beating a dead horse, but the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

 

This game would benefit from a tool that can measure the effectiveness of the DPS classes.

 

I know that the opponents of damage meters will argue that damage meters ruined such games as WoW because players were scrutinized on their performance in instances/raids. The players that weren’t living up to the standards of others were belittled and because of this the fun was drained from the game.

 

Is this not true with most games though? If you’re not performing at a certain expected level of skill or competence, the game will turn on you, you will fail and the game will cease to be fun.

 

On the other side of the coin, if you perform at, or above the expected level of skill or competence, the game will reward you for your efforts and you will have a positive experience.

 

The trick with MMOs is that we have to rely on not only our own level of skill and competence, but the level of skill and competence of other players. For the most part, it’s pretty easy to tell if a tank or healer is doing their job effectively, but without damage meters it can be tricky to tell whether or not a DPSer is doing their job.

 

For any given boss fight:

 

Did the boss die fast enough or did it die slower than it should have? Were the two DPS classes on par with each other, or was one carrying the load? Perhaps the tank was doing the most DPS. If the tank was doing more DPS than the DPS classes, is it safe to say that the DPS classes were not fulfilling their role? Should it matter as long as the group makes it through the instance?

 

The last question is what the folks against damage meters seem to focus on: “Hey, we made it through the instance. That was the goal right? We weren’t trying to break any speed records after all…” and I agree with that, however I feel that the people who enjoy spending 3 hours in an instance that should’ve taken 45 minutes to complete would be in the minority.

 

With damage meters a group can pinpoint the issues that led to the slow run (and possible wipe as a result of not killing a boss fast enough) and make adjustments accordingly. For instance, when this theoretical group reviews the damage meters they see the following:

 

Sniper (DPS) – 76%

Juggernaut (Tank) – 15%

Mercenary (DPS) – 9%

Sorcerers (Heals) – 0%

 

 

 

Of course this is an extreme case, but there’s obviously a glaring issue with that mercenary’s DPS. Since the group has a damage meter to see this, they can quickly assess the situation and work with the mercenary to make sure he has the right gear equipped, the correct talent spec for his role and is using the most effective attacks to improve his DPS. Without a damage meter it would’ve taken much longer to try and figure out whether the sniper or the mercenary, or both, were the issue.

 

Of course this would not be a typical scenario. In a typical scenario, especially in a PUG, this would’ve ended quite badly for the mercenary and he would’ve probably received a “Your DPS sucks! G-T-F-O n00b!” response.

 

So, this poor merc has a few options at this point. He can either:

 

A. Feel completely hurt and leave the game forever

B. Say “Whatever, I’ll do what I want!” and join another group, ruining 3 other gamers’ experience

C. Say “Man, I’m obviously doing something wrong” and go do a little research on his class to find out how he can be better at it

 

If he chooses option “A” I’m sorry to say it, but maybe MMOs aren’t for him. MMOs are the internet, and like it or not, if you’re having social interactions with strangers on the internet, you’re gonna need thick skin. Also, kids are cruel, and there are a lot of them playing MMOs.

 

If he chooses option “B” he’s just being outright selfish and he deserves the negative comments he’ll get from groups.

 

If he chooses option “C” not only will he have a more positive experience within groups, but the other 3 people will also have a more positive experience.

 

I think it’s safe to say that everyone wants to have a positive experience when they enter an instance. The best way to ensure that everyone does have a positive experience is to make sure that everyone is performing the role that they were asked into group to do, and for the DPS classes, this means having a way to measure the damage they do.

 

What makes you the master telling others how to play the game? Your suggestions will just end in lots of griefing. I say an emphatic NO to dps meters or anything similar.

[Bigbazz]

Probably said this about a million times before, but damage meters are the best thing about modern MMO gaming for me, without them this game has a very short shelf life for me, atleast in MMO terms.

 

People will argue left right and centre, but not having them in the game (obviously it would have to be user made, so would need the combat log + addon support) will do a lot of harm.

[KrelosDarksky]

My personal damage meter:

 

1) I hit stuff

2)

A) it dies

B) I die

 

If 2-A, damage good. If 2-B damage bad.

 

Done.

 

 

Exactly .. I don't know why people don't get it.

 

Well .. I do know .. because people like the OP want to know if a new player is doing 0.05457% less DPS than their buddy... that way they can shun and belittle the new player.

 

.

Edited January 2, 2012 by KrelosDarksky

[TrollBerzerker]

I would say that damage done is way more important then dps.

 

But if you're pulling way more DPS than other people, shouldn't it automatically be assumed that you're higher on damage dealt too? Granted, I know that wasn't always the case, as I saw people with lower DPS but higher damage done. But in the end, the only thing that mattered was that they brought enough DPS for the encounter. If everyone is pulling at least that much, then you should be able to defeat the boss. Anything above that just makes it quicker (though not necessarily easier, due to potentially paying more attention to meters than encounter hazards)

 

Exactly .. I don't know why people don't get it.

 

Well .. I do know .. because people like the OP want to know if a new player is doing 0.05457% less DPS than their buddy... that way they can shun and belittle the new player.

 

Either you need to find a new raid or get thicker skin. This never happens, ever. No one belittles anybody for pulling slightly less damage. I've never seen it, not in six years of playing WoW.

 

The only time anybody says anything is if you aren't pulling enough damage for the encounter.

Edited January 2, 2012 by TrollBerzerker

[jettemakaron]

Exactly .. I don't know why people don't get it.

 

Well .. I do know .. because people like the OP want to know if a new player is doing 0.05457% less DPS than their buddy... that way they can shun and belittle the new player.

 

.

 

No, people wana know whats wrong when the boss dont die.

If u try to kill a new boss a couple of nights every week (or whatever raid/fp times your guild have) and u after several weeks still dont can kill it.

Would it not be nice to see why u cant kill it?

[jettemakaron]

But if you're pulling way more DPS than other people, shouldn't it automatically be assumed that you're higher on damage dealt too? Granted, I know that wasn't always the case, as I saw people with lower DPS but higher damage done. But in the end, the only thing that mattered was that they brought enough DPS for the encounter. If everyone is pulling at least that much, then you should be able to defeat the boss. Anything above that just makes it quicker (though not necessarily easier, due to potentially paying more attention to meters than encounter hazards)

 

If u have 1000 dps but doing other stuff 20% of the fight, running around or are slow on switching targets or whatever.

 

And another guy doing 900dps but he running around etc for 10% of the fight he does more dmg.

 

Its also nice to see what people have done dmg to, if there are adds that needs to die fast u can count on that some dps dont know it/ignore it and keep firing on the boss and u all die.

[KrelosDarksky]

No, people wana know whats wrong when the boss dont die.

If u try to kill a new boss a couple of nights every week (or whatever raid/fp times your guild have) and u after several weeks still dont can kill it.

Would it not be nice to see why u cant kill it?

 

If the boss doesn't die then you didn't do enough damage before he killed you. Simple.

 

If you are doing the same thing over and over again then that is on you. Looking at a window that says you did 32134 points of damage in the 2 minutes you were fighting isn't going to help you.

 

A damage/DPS meter only serves one purpose .. see my previous post in this thread .. I don't feel like copy/pasting it here.

 

 

 

.

[jettemakaron]

If the boss doesn't die then you didn't do enough damage before he killed you. Simple.

 

If you are doing the same thing over and over again then that is on you. Looking at a window that says you did 32134 points of damage in the 2 minutes you were fighting isn't going to help you.

 

A damage/DPS meter only serves one purpose .. see my previous post in this thread .. I don't feel like copy/pasting it here.

 

 

 

.

 

Like i said, people can be dps wrong targets, healers can miss to cleanse, people can miss interupts.

 

Theres so much more info u can get more then just dps, most fight the dps dont even matter its just a matter of people doing the right things in the right order and a addon to see what people did makes it alot easier.

 

Can it be done without it, well ofc but why make it harder then i have to be?

[TrollBerzerker]

If the boss doesn't die then you didn't do enough damage before he killed you. Simple.

 

If you are doing the same thing over and over again then that is on you. Looking at a window that says you did 32134 points of damage in the 2 minutes you were fighting isn't going to help you.

 

A damage/DPS meter only serves one purpose .. see my previous post in this thread .. I don't feel like copy/pasting it here.

 

No, you're wrong. Again, nobody mocks other people for doing slightly less damage. It only happens when you aren't pulling your weight, or you're behaving badly, or the person is just a troll who gets off on mocking other people. In which case, congratulations, you getting offended has made the troll successful.

 

The damage meter tells you if someone isn't pulling enough damage for the encounter. Without it, people who are good at their class suffer and fail because idiots don't want to bother learning how to play. Raids and even regular flashpoints are a group endeavor, and if people aren't pulling their weight, everyone else has to try harder to pick up the slack.

 

Further, if you consistently are failing the encounter, then you should check to see how many people aren't pulling enough damage. Or, if everyone is pulling enough damage but you're failing anyway, then you should check the heal meters, or see if the tanks are performing properly.

 

Either way, the meters tell you whether or not low damage is the issue, and you can go from there. Without the meter, you'll never know what's causing the problem.

[choboon]

My personal damage meter:

 

1) I hit stuff

2)

A) it dies

B) I die

 

If 2-A, damage good. If 2-B damage bad.

 

Done.

 

This...

 

If Bosses hit enrage timer and kill the group you need more damage.

Upgrade, change rotation, try again.

 

Unless you dont want to really try things, you want a spread chart to tell you what is better so you dont "waste" time.

 

Sorry, this is subjective, but for me that has nothing to do with gaming anymore.

[jettemakaron]

This...

 

If Bosses hit enrage timer and kill the group you need more damage.

Upgrade, change rotation, try again.

 

Unless you dont want to really try things, you want a spread chart to tell you what is better so you dont "waste" time.

 

Sorry, this is subjective, but for me that has nothing to do with gaming anymore.

 

And in a group of 8 people, they all die because of the boss hits the enrage timer.

With a dps meter we could easily see the the bounty hunter needs to do more dps so we help him achive that.

 

Without it all 8 people trying to improve even to 7 of them already are doing just fine.

 

Why should 7 of them suffer because 1 dosent know what hes doing?

[WarTornPanda]

Go back to wow if you want damage meters.

 

I guess WoW is the only MMO with damage meters now.

[jettemakaron]

I guess WoW is the only MMO with damage meters now.

 

"Go back to wow" is the standard frase from fanboys when they know they are acctually wrong but are asshamed to admit it.

[Phorla]

It cracks me up how the people against dmg meters never have a valid arguement.

 

You say people will get flamed for being bad? I say dont be bad and you wont get flamed.

 

Also, just because you would rather spend your time running around killing mobs in an attempt to find the best rotation doesnt mean that those of us who want to see a breakdown of a timed session are wrong. I couldnt give a **** less how you spend your time bettering yourself so why does it bother you so much that I want to see a chart?

[mrfrye]

There's only one reason someone would not want meters in the game.

 

I'll give you a hint: TIMMY!!!

[crazycantab]

Let me echo:

 

To the OP ..... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

the reasons I am against this have been stated a million times. This is not the game I want to play, where people use meters to determine their group participants and not have to bother using their own social skills or to figure out how to do something on their own. It's for lazy people.

 

That makes no sense.

 

Damage meters are for people that don't want to be grouped with lazy people.

[icepiick]

It seems silly to argue against damage meters since no one is forcing you to get an add on.

 

Damage meters are an important testing tool. They are limited for measuring performance in raid situations, but usually a good indication. At the very least, they help figure out who's asleep at the wheel.

[LadyAzurith]

I use to be in a very competitive guild in wow. And I wasn't the best, every week I looked over the meters and tried to find out where I could improve. the meters are a tool for improvement. I have to agree that the people who don't want them probably got burned at some point because they didn't want to put in the effort to make themselves better at the game.

 

If you want to play it your way and however you want. Fine , you go right ahead just don't expect the rest of the people in your group or raid to want to play with you. Why should they carry dead weight along when the game would be much more enjoyable for them if they had someone who did their part?

 

People who expect you to optimize are not ******es for doing so, they are the people who don't want to spend 5 hrs getting nowhere because the game is designed to be hard and is expecting you to know how to play your class right.

 

I have no problem with people who are new and are willing to learn. Its the people who have no desire/ make no effort at all to learn how to play the class they have chosen, join a group and then get pissed because people don't want them and call them out for it.

 

You may be paying your 15 a month to play how you want but the other people in your group are paying too. If you didn't want to play right then don't waste their time.

 

Damage meters are a much needed thing, and can only make this game better.

[TheHauntingBard]

I guess WoW is the only MMO with damage meters now.

 

You can see what type of ex WOW players are attracted to this game.

I almost do not dare to say it but eumh ' could you go back to WOW'

 

 

Would like damage meters myself, improving my gameplay is fun.

[Utorian]

havent read the thread and tobe honest didnt need to as its one of 100's on here about this issue.

 

I personaly do not like in game damage meters. They draw too much attention away from what matters in the game. However, I did use WWS or similar combat log reading forums. These to me were an invaluable tool when I was selecting a raid team or deciding on a recruits to the guild.

 

The arguments for both sides of this debate are all very valid and no one will back down on this. Now to me there realy is only 1 compromise to this that may appeal to both. The introduction of a combat log which will record into a readable file. This way we do not have to have dmg meters but people can then develop a forum based report for people to view after the raids.

 

You all know the kind of forums I am talking about and lets be honest, the information you could get from that was so much more informative than a crummy meter in the corner of your screen.

[TenebriousDeep]

I think they should remove the damage an ability does from the tooltip. This way you can just kill things with the abilities you like the best based on animations and just play the way you want.

 

I mean the more information players get the worse the game gets, right?

 

If a tank doesn't tank the mobs, everyone knows.

 

If a healer doesn't heal the tank, everyone knows.

 

If a DPS just spams one button, no one knows.

 

The great thing about a damage meter adding isn't just "who's doing the most", it's which abilities are the highest % of your damage? How much of a players DPS went to the boss vs. how much was on the adds?

 

These things are invaluable if this game intends to have challenging content (and the inclusion of nightmare modes tells us it will)

[KSheriff]

I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of tool that allowed me to assess my own performance. As things stand, when I'm dps, I have no idea if I'm really doing my part. I do use CCs, and damage reduction C/ds to lessen the load on healer/tank, but I have no idea if my actual dps is any good.

[capaydaga]

For those mature players which use DPS meters, not to belittle but to try to help other players on their team become better team mates, these are an essential part of any grouping game.

 

Thank you for working on the combat logs issue.

[SnoggyMack]

I know, I know, I’m beating a dead horse, but the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

 

This game would benefit from a tool that can measure the effectiveness of the DPS classes.

 

This game does not need a damage meter.

 

What it needs, and this is really the ONLY add-on I support in Star Wars The Old Republic ... is a Midichlorian Counter.

 

That way players can count the midichlorians of their fellow players, and know how good they are at Star Wars.

 

This fits the lore. And it fits the suggestion that all the players are asking for a measuring stick. In star wars, we need to be counting midis, not dee-pee-essas.

 

And really, if you're a Jedi with lazy swimmers and low midichlorian count, it's best everyone knows this up front.

 

And if you're a sith with limp midichlorians, you don't deserve to keep that slave collar on Vette.

 

/thread

[maxolina]

Imo Damage meters are useless.

 

If you manage to kill a boss, who cares who did the most dps, if someone carried the whole group etc, you killed the boss, thats it. Gratz.