Whos quitting Nim loot?

[Volcan]

I don't know what's worse, the design decision, or the time they need to implement their terrible decision 2+ months from now, ~4 months after launch date. Edited December 8, 2015 by Volcan

[IcySmokeone]

I deleted my credit card last week after getting unsatisfactory responses from customer service on a few issues. My sub runs out in February but after the announcement I plan to go ahead and stop before Christmas. I don't play an MMO to do story content.

[Gyronamics]

Largely I play for PVE and get nothing out of faceroll PVE modes or PVE with pick up groups with extremely low raid experience or farcical PVE modes that don't give me gear rewards appropriate for the difficulty.

 

I'd guess what will happen will be clear in the ~week of sub time I have left.

 

I expect my thoughts will crystalise on the next yellow dev post the next poor ******* sent with it has to post.

 

But basically I'm thinking **** this, these muppets offer a hardest tier mode and have no idea what people prepared to spend a ****load of time clearing such fights actually want even though the correct format was used since game launch.

 

I want, and I'm not alone in this, the best gear to be the hardest to get and no RNG lark about it (aside from the acceptable group rolls to see who gets it).

 

Not the best gear to be accessible by a trained monkey in joke modes and the hardest mode to be hours, days and weeks of time commitment only for pretentious titles, mounts and achievements which are a one shot thing and provide no incentive to go back and do it again.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Gyronamics

[Asaxor]

aren't you supposed to do the h2s to farm alliance crates?

[JouerTue]

it was clear they wanted nim to die. no new nim for tos/rav and now this joke about bugged drops. they just want their metrics to confirm that people prefere enlighted model, when it's just terribads farming Soa.

very poor decision.

time will show how many will sub for a single player game, but probably thousands with the film and the endless abyss of stupidity men can explore day after day, scam after scam, yellow post after yellow post.

[Brutal]

lol ow i can't get the loot i will un sub really ? SAD SAD people take your toys and go play Pokemon who needs lot like u in game

[Magvay]

Brutal - Tomski?

[Magvay]

And it is not about can't get loot. It is about top loot drop from easy operations 100%. Imagine whine about Mythic gear from heroic raids in wow 100% but on mythic it is slight chance like really

[guerting]

You have to realise that Bioware are a metrics driven organisation.

 

If people stop doing NiM raids... that won't be a sign Bioware scr*wed up and drove people away...

... It'll be seen as a absolute truth that consistently people aren't interested in doing NiM OPs, so it's a waste of resources and so they should focus on the other stuff.

 

The NiM loot itself probably wouldn't be directly an issue for me. But the design philosophy... my perception of the ideas BEHIND this decision, just make me realise how big the expanse is between what I want from an MMORPG and what Bioware want to deliver.

 

This line intentionally left blank.

 

While I agree completely with your idea of being metrics, its likely the idiots screwed up their own metrics by having Ravagers and ToS in only HM. Counting those raids as HM almost certainly screwed their metrics because it was what people were doing for progression instead of the old NiM. Metrics are only as good as the data going into them. Garbage in, Garbage out. And it seems BW knows a lot about garbage.

[VegasTheLost]

While I agree completely with your idea of being metrics, its likely the idiots screwed up their own metrics by having Ravagers and ToS in only HM. Counting those raids as HM almost certainly screwed their metrics because it was what people were doing for progression instead of the old NiM. Metrics are only as good as the data going into them. Garbage in, Garbage out. And it seems BW knows a lot about garbage.

 

You're halfway right True that BW has metrics and they rely on that. However the way you look at metrics and what your conclusion is depending on what you want to see in them. Hope this is not confusing Anyway so if you want to read from the metrics that only a few people finished ToS on HM, clearly the metrics will show that. Reason is Revan was designed to be halfway HM-NIM so it was truly a challenging fight. Also the metrics showed them that only a few people was running NIM OPS. It was true again but the reason was they weren't relevant. See? Metrics is a thing. What the conclusion is regarding them, depends what the company wants.

 

I can link you a statistic from the Brazil - German 1-7 from the world cup that shows Brazil was dominant, they had more chances, more attempts and stuff like this but that would be off topic and I'm not sure anyone is interested. And I'm just saying this because numbers alone can be misleading, you have to see the whole picture to make them relevant and clear.

[Torvai]

You're halfway right True that BW has metrics and they rely on that. However the way you look at metrics and what your conclusion is depending on what you want to see in them. Hope this is not confusing Anyway so if you want to read from the metrics that only a few people finished ToS on HM, clearly the metrics will show that. Reason is Revan was designed to be halfway HM-NIM so it was truly a challenging fight. Also the metrics showed them that only a few people was running NIM OPS. It was true again but the reason was they weren't relevant. See? Metrics is a thing. What the conclusion is regarding them, depends what the company wants.

 

I can link you a statistic from the Brazil - German 1-7 from the world cup that shows Brazil was dominant, they had more chances, more attempts and stuff like this but that would be off topic and I'm not sure anyone is interested. And I'm just saying this because numbers alone can be misleading, you have to see the whole picture to make them relevant and clear.

 

So much this.

 

I mean, we're talking about an organisation here that thought that people skipping through story like mad to level toons during 12x XP said they were enjoying story and it's what motivates them to play:rolleyes:

[AlrikFassbauer]

But basically I'm thinking **** this, these muppets

 

These ?

[Jerba]

I wanted to talk to my raid group first before replying in this thread and am happy to say that we are not quitting the game, we are staying.

IMO, it is important in this whole discussion to distinguish raid loggers (e.g. players who only log in shortly before raid starts and are gone afterwards, you never see them online outside of raid night) and players who log in daily and play other content in addition to raids.

For me, operations are the thing I enjoy most in SWTOR but I also do every other in-game activity, PvP, GSF, decorating, flashpoints, group finder, collecting Cartel Market items and pets, helping out other players etc. So I still take enjoyment in this game even if we don't receive another operation, and my group feels similar because I took great care to not recruit raid loggers.

TBH, I'm not sure if we count as NiM raiders, we only have Rav/ToS on 7/10 because we usually don't manage to kill the most difficult bosses but I still consider us to play at the highest level, in fact we have killed every NiM boss but some bosses only post-nerf.

 

Anyway, I can understand why certain players no longer feel attached to SWTOR as much and would rather raid in another MMO, I 100% support you in that decision. WoW's Legion looks very promising and if I weren't playing SWTOR, I'd've already preordered it but I don't want to play more than one MMO, and as long as I'm having fun here, I rather play the game where I invested so much time and money.

We did know that operations were in a bad state for a few months now but only this week did we receive direct confirmation that currently no operation is in the works, and there are no plans for starting work on one either. At one time, I thought that they had started work on it in October already but that was an empty promise the devs made.

It is clear that BWA is in financial trouble and they have to cut costs and try to do whatever they can to increase revenue. While I don't want to excuse them, I do imagine that it was a very hard decision to abandon the veteran players and focus on new players, but obviously they cannot outright state that.

At this point, I am unsure if we will see a Season 2 of the KotFE story or if the game will be in maintenance mode then. We'll have to wait for the next two quarterly reports, and then it depends on whether EA wants to keep this game running idle for a few years or just shut it down because the engine is so bad that even in maintenance mode it costs too much, who knows.

I know that I am still having fun doing old content; there is so much to do that I have something different to do each day, be it a flashpoint, operation, heroic or daily area. If something gets boring, I just play another area of content. The fact that my raid group thinks the same is a plus and I hope they will stick with the game until the end. I try to motivate them as much as possible by varying our raid night, like e.g. we've been killing some conquest commanders for NiM crystal materials, we've been doing the Yavin walker world boss for decorations, and in the future we may even do a bit of PvP, all in addition to operations. E.g. today on our last raid before Christmas we did a speeder race and an Esseles speedrun competition which were a lot of fun, but we also did Xeno and Denova HM because we are a raid group after all. But what I mean is that there are ways to prevent burnout from old content.

It is clear that the zenith of SWTOR is over. I look forward to experiencing the new chapters and I will enjoy playing my character as long as possible. Have fun in WoW, FF14 or wherever you're going and we may see each other again when the servers are shut off here.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Jerba

[Asari-tears]

I'n pretty much done, might go back to wow.

 

I just don't understand their logic. I mean I think it's a great idea to have the HL hm each week to give the casual raiders a chance to get their toons bis. But then to strip the same rewards away from your hardcore raider base who have been with you for years. I just don't understand it at all, there is zero loyalty and zero consideration for end-game raiders.

 

it's like BioWare are beating the end-game raiding community with a shovel until it finally kills them and the ones that didn't get killed by the first blow of there being no new ops have only been further punished with this crazy (stupid) loot system.

 

The only legitimate reason I can possibly think of is that the top-tier guilds asked for nim to not drop 224 so that nim raiding can pose more of a challenge in being forced to run it in 220. But I doubt even they'd want that level of masochism.

[Dark_Mithrandir]

I'n pretty much done, might go back to wow.

 

I just don't understand their logic. I mean I think it's a great idea to have the HL hm each week to give the casual raiders a chance to get their toons bis. But then to strip the same rewards away from your hardcore raider base who have been with you for years. I just don't understand it at all, there is zero loyalty and zero consideration for end-game raiders.

 

it's like BioWare are beating the end-game raiding community with a shovel until it finally kills them and the ones that didn't get killed by the first blow of there being no new ops have only been further punished with this crazy (stupid) loot system.

 

The only legitimate reason I can possibly think of is that the top-tier guilds asked for nim to not drop 224 so that nim raiding can pose more of a challenge in being forced to run it in 220. But I doubt even they'd want that level of masochism.

 

Pretty much all Top-tier guilds-players left before 4.0 and are playing other stuff.

They may come back from time to time for 3 days - 4 days and run out again. It's called nostalgia.

[Bradypan]

The cancel subscription box has a 2000 character limit which I completely used up to write this:

I first came to SWTOR because I loved the Star Wars franchise, and having played many BioWare games before, expected to get a great deal out of this game. This is my first, and probably last MMO. While I joined to play the story, what kept me playing the game was the end game content, where I would join a team made up of friends that I made in the game, and try to clear the hardest content possible. When you were still creating operations, my friends and I got a great deal of enjoyment out of working on DF/DP NiM and Rav/TOS HM. In the end, we were able to clear 10/10 TOS and Ravagers HM before the Revan HM nerf, and started selling runs for everything imaginable in the game. At this point, I have 99% Operations completion, having started the game much later than most endgame raiders. However, with the KOTFE announcement and the switch to only story, with no Operations/Warzones/GSF map additions, we all lost interest. The only content was recycled old content, and NiM operations did not drop any 224 loot. From 4 raid days a week, we went down to 1, used to farm the highlighted HM. On December 7th, the final nail was driven into the coffin. Eric Musco announced that the highlight HMs were intentionally the best way to farm gear and that NiM content was only supposed to have a chance of dropping 224s. The immense disrespect showed towards end game raiders have made dozens of top tier raid groups leave already, and this last announcement sounded the death knell of the rest. My raid team of 14 months, all of whom I could call good friends, and some of whom I had met in real life during a guild meet, got together and decided that it was the end of an era. The only reason that we had even stayed as long as we did was because we enjoyed spending time with each other and we still held out hope for a bone to be thrown to raiders. We all love this game and have spent thousands of hours in game. Perhaps one day we can all come back to a brand new challenging op.

[ArenCordial]

I decided to call it and hit the unsub button.

 

The NiM Loot + Eric's statement convinced me of what I knew to be true. The PvE end game is done. KotFE has already devastated my progression guild, guys that I've been raiding with since practically launch. On the expansion's launch we had 4 people on. FOUR. Not enough to run one op let alone multiple teams.

 

On a good night we can get 5-6 players leaving us to pug the other 2-3. For progression? Forget it. So basically we have the choice of joining another guild and throw away all the work and effort we did for our Guild ship just to run the same content we've been running for over a year or calling it.

 

Its time to call it. At this point all we are doing is going through the motions anyway.

[DataBeaver]

Okay this is ridiculous. It's debatable whether the highest tier of raids needs to have its own tier of gear (after all, there are no more difficult raids where that content might be useful), but it certainly shouldn't be worse than what's dropped on a lower tier. This reeks of artificially lengthening the grind by limiting the number of drops players can get per week.

[xkcurtisx]

Okay this is ridiculous. It's debatable whether the highest tier of raids needs to have its own tier of gear (after all, there are no more difficult raids where that content might be useful), but it certainly shouldn't be worse than what's dropped on a lower tier. This reeks of artificially lengthening the grind by limiting the number of drops players can get per week.

 

you clearly never step foot in a nim operation.

[Grimsblood]

You make some very good points (although I think the ones about not dropping gear at all and being companions were, shall we say, exaggerations to make a point ).

 

As you have identified, despite not being experienced in other MMO raiding, SWTOR raiding is pretty short lived for any group of players with skill and/or experience. It was never designed to be an end game raiding game, has never pretended to be one - too few raids that are all pretty easy show that. At the top end have been NiM ops, which have had various iterations but the current stance appears to be that they are about bragging rights and unique rewards rather than best gear. I actually think your ideas about shells and cartel coins are absolutely valid and would be good additions.

 

As I stated before, the problem with awarding the next level of gear at NiM level is that it means you MUST make the op itself easier than that gear level requires. If the only place to get level 224 gear is NiM ops, you can't have those ops require 224 gear. Now, this assumes proper tuning but that is an achievable goal imo. If NiM ops require 220 gear but award 224 gear, they rapidly become easier and easier, until you get to the point that a full ops group in 224 steamrolls through it, easily carrying a few un-geared players to gear them up with little effort.

 

It doesn't really change the current situation at all, it just gives players a 'warm fuzzy' because they are getting gear from something called 'nightmare mode' instead of 'hard mode'. But that nightmare mode really isn't anymore, its 'slightly-harder-than-hard-mode mode' because its easy to overgear and therefore screw up the tuning.

 

Ultimately it comes down to expectations. If we, as players, want NiM ops to be, and remain, the ultimate level of difficulty, then we need to also accept that that means there cannot be a gear increase within them as that would make any meaningful difficulty tuning impossible. We should, though, expect suitable and worthwhile rewards if level gear isn't included, and that's where the SWTOR devs have fallen short by a long way. A couple of titles and mounts won't keep players interested for long.

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts after almost 16 years playing MMOs, mostly as what is now known as a progression raider.

 

I am not sure if you will respond to this. I was just browsing through this thread and came across your comment. The bolded part really stands out to me. I feel that as a progression raider, you should know better. The entire point of getting better gear than what you currently have is so you will be prepared for the next level. NiM's "should" bridge the gape between SM and HM for the next tier of content while providing a top level challenge for the HM equivalent gear for its tier. Where a current tier's HM gear would become entry level SM gear for the next tier, NiM would provide the entry level for the next HM tier.

 

Of course, this model can be adjusted for different factors (things like maybe NiM only allows access to the next tiers SM, ect). But the core idea remains the same. For instance, take HM's. Since we are no longer getting NiM, that means once we acquire the "current tier's" HM gear, we will be able to faceroll the HM's and they will not be a challenge. Therefor, we should not increase the gear, correct? You are telling us that an op should not drop better gear than what is required to beat it. That is entirely wrong, IF you are planning on having more difficult raid content at a later date.

 

If Bioware wants to phase out NiM's, they should simply remove them. If they allow them to stay in the game, then they should provide a reward equal to their difficulty. The do not. Not when you can faceroll EV and KP for the best rewards in the game. That also brings up the point of removing EV and KP's NiM. Those NiM's were stupidly easy, BUT wasn't the idea that they didn't want people farming those for gear? I could be wrong, but isn't that what everyone did when those were the Priority Ops?

 

The entire approach to the raids in this game has been contradictory. People may hate EC, but it was really a step in the right direction. The op tested each member of the group and punished you for messing up. That's why people couldn't out gear and out level that op. This idea of making things easier and handing out loot to everyone is ridiculous! People want the loot so they have the "best." Everyone wants to be the "best." No one wants to put the effort in to it. They assume that if they are handed the gear, that will be the "best" and be able to do all the content. The gears only purpose is to act as a gate for harder content and to provide a sense of accomplishment. They gear is MEANT to be used IN THE RAID. Not doing dailies or flashpoints or decorating your house.

 

This game doesn't know where it wants to go. It is trying so many different things that it does not take the time to slow down and get the basics right. This focus on single player story and all the people saying that is what they play SWTOR as( a KOTORIII) are destroying this game. This is not an RPG. This is an MMORPG. It is meant to be played with other people. Group content is sort of required for this genre. It is about community. You don't log in to raid, you keep logging in to experience this content with your friends. That is what keep players coming back. This game started hemorrhaging players when the content became easy (NiM EV/KP) and when the group content was bugged. Players simply didn't have enough reliable content to sink their teeth in to. There is a reason why Blizzard does so well. It has felt like SWTOR has been trying to reinvent the wheel. Turns out, they made a smooth wheel turn in to a rectangle. If they want to make a story driven single player RPG, please go make KOTOR III. I will buy it and play it. But this Single player "MMO" hybrid thing they are doing is pitiful.

 

Forigve me, I will stop rambling and ranting. I know I am everywhere in what I am saying. I just feel like there are so many broken aspects to this game that have been in it since launch. I feel that it has been the leadership behind this game that have allowed them to remain this way. Inexperienced leadership. There is no shame in recognizing this and taking steps to learn and make a better game. There is a lot of shame and disappointment when you refuse to accept help and knowledge.

[VegasTheLost]

It is meant to be played with other people. Group content is sort of required for this genre. It is about community. You don't log in to raid, you keep logging in to experience this content with your friends. That is what keep players coming back.

 

Exactly. And now my guild is falling apart. Throughout the week the headcount was 4 peeps online(me included). I'm bored of SM OPS and we certainly can't PUG HM ones. And we're nowhere near even speaking about doing NiM content for challenge. It's just messed up. Sure I could switch guilds and progress but it's just not the same. If I can't do it with my friends it's never the same.

[Drevv]

DEV's do not seem interested in earning the money we pay for a game that once was an MMORPG. Now it's an RPG that you pay money for to get full access. Since community feedback is not considered by the Dev team and the SWTOR powers that be...I....like you have voted with my money. They don't earn it, and from the look of this don't plan on earning it. Best of luck all. May the Force be with you.

[JouerTue]

I am not sure if you will respond to this. I was just browsing through this thread and came across your comment. The bolded part really stands out to me. I feel that as a progression raider, you should know better. The entire point of getting better gear than what you currently have is so you will be prepared for the next level. NiM's "should" bridge the gape between SM and HM for the next tier of content while providing a top level challenge for the HM equivalent gear for its tier. Where a current tier's HM gear would become entry level SM gear for the next tier, NiM would provide the entry level for the next HM tier.

 

Of course, this model can be adjusted for different factors (things like maybe NiM only allows access to the next tiers SM, ect). But the core idea remains the same. For instance, take HM's. Since we are no longer getting NiM, that means once we acquire the "current tier's" HM gear, we will be able to faceroll the HM's and they will not be a challenge. Therefor, we should not increase the gear, correct? You are telling us that an op should not drop better gear than what is required to beat it. That is entirely wrong, IF you are planning on having more difficult raid content at a later date.

 

If Bioware wants to phase out NiM's, they should simply remove them. If they allow them to stay in the game, then they should provide a reward equal to their difficulty. The do not. Not when you can faceroll EV and KP for the best rewards in the game. That also brings up the point of removing EV and KP's NiM. Those NiM's were stupidly easy, BUT wasn't the idea that they didn't want people farming those for gear? I could be wrong, but isn't that what everyone did when those were the Priority Ops?

 

The entire approach to the raids in this game has been contradictory. People may hate EC, but it was really a step in the right direction. The op tested each member of the group and punished you for messing up. That's why people couldn't out gear and out level that op. This idea of making things easier and handing out loot to everyone is ridiculous! People want the loot so they have the "best." Everyone wants to be the "best." No one wants to put the effort in to it. They assume that if they are handed the gear, that will be the "best" and be able to do all the content. The gears only purpose is to act as a gate for harder content and to provide a sense of accomplishment. They gear is MEANT to be used IN THE RAID. Not doing dailies or flashpoints or decorating your house.

 

This game doesn't know where it wants to go. It is trying so many different things that it does not take the time to slow down and get the basics right. This focus on single player story and all the people saying that is what they play SWTOR as( a KOTORIII) are destroying this game. This is not an RPG. This is an MMORPG. It is meant to be played with other people. Group content is sort of required for this genre. It is about community. You don't log in to raid, you keep logging in to experience this content with your friends. That is what keep players coming back. This game started hemorrhaging players when the content became easy (NiM EV/KP) and when the group content was bugged. Players simply didn't have enough reliable content to sink their teeth in to. There is a reason why Blizzard does so well. It has felt like SWTOR has been trying to reinvent the wheel. Turns out, they made a smooth wheel turn in to a rectangle. If they want to make a story driven single player RPG, please go make KOTOR III. I will buy it and play it. But this Single player "MMO" hybrid thing they are doing is pitiful.

 

Forigve me, I will stop rambling and ranting. I know I am everywhere in what I am saying. I just feel like there are so many broken aspects to this game that have been in it since launch. I feel that it has been the leadership behind this game that have allowed them to remain this way. Inexperienced leadership. There is no shame in recognizing this and taking steps to learn and make a better game. There is a lot of shame and disappointment when you refuse to accept help and knowledge.

 

i think you nailed it.

[Overmind]

i think you nailed it.

No, Grimsblood didn't.

Probably half the player base plays the game for the story and SP content.

[JouerTue]

No, Grimsblood didn't.

Probably half the player base plays the game for the story and SP content.

 

the gear thinking was pretty good though. while i'm sure a lot of people just do SP content and the operations are a really consuming content in means of economic resources, compared with how many will actually participate, it's a kind of content that keeps a mmo healthy, it's what it's built around: who would need HM tier crafted relics, implants, hilts, the constant use of stims, adrenals..not the casual..guilds see the light to group together endgame players and organise raids, more than that it's all people keeping the sub going for months and years..

this direction the game took, leads to ''one month after a few chapters are released'' subscribers. HK bribe is just poor and ridicolous.