Whos quitting Nim loot?

[Woetoo]

Governments are anything but organized.

 

I was aiming for amusing. That moment has passed. Let's see if we can get back onto topic...

 

Would I quit over this NiM loot announcement? Not in isolation, but as another design choice in a long line of recent design choices that have me concerned about overall game... maybe. But it's a mute point. I already cancelled my recurring subscription 3 weeks ago and it'll expire in about 3 weeks from now. Why isn't relevant to this particular thread.

 

I'd love to hear from more actual NiM progression raiders though...

 

This line intentionally left blank.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Woetoo

[psikofunkster]

who still give a damm of this stupid game/dev team anyway? Wake up its announced since june, take the leap of another game, stop worrying about your little char and bonus dmg lmao

 

Well you still do for sure that why are you still here posting...

 

Little problem is there is not another SW game like this so.....

Edited December 7, 2015 by psikofunkster

[Ruskaeth]

I'd love to hear from more actual NiM progression raiders though...

There are a lot of comments from nim raiders. Most of those comments have been along the lines of "lol" and ---> then unsub. For real.

[WiththeForc]

Eh, like I said in the thread, I think the reasoning behind this is that every week you have 5 different nim ops to choose from/do vs the 1 HM. Depending on what the drop rate is though, I might not agree with it. Regardless I just have Brontes left then I get to think about unsubbing or not

[Kawabonga]

But, and I mean no disrespect nor do I wish to start a fight, SWTOR isn't and has never been a hardcore raiding environment. Throughout its history it has been, at best (in that regard) "somewhat difficult", so i get really confused when people state they are leaving due to anything at all related to NiM ops - because they weren't a reason to stay in the first place for any serious raider.

 

Admittedly, for me, no current MMO will ever be considered hardcore raiding but I come from the EQ era. No instancing, deaths had a real cost, far bigger groups required and before all the modern fancy aids (or even voice comms).

 

As I noted in a different thread, I can see a logic behind what they did (although not having an explanation from them was very shortsighted) in that expecting NiM ops to require 224 gear allows them to be more highly tuned. What should happen, in that instance, is that (a) they are given sufficient other rewards to make them interesting and (b) they should be the first opportunity to earn the next gear level prior to the release of new content. This would allow players focused on endgame raiding to continue to be tested and rewarded as well as wanting to keep their skills up in preparation for the next operation release.

 

Having NiM being the place to get the top end gear simply means that, over time, it becomes relatively easy. And with modern games, that time is very short. Tuning NiM content to require the best players using level 220 gear simply means that, once a few get 224 gear, the raid becomes easier. Ultimately, it means that once everyone has 224 gear the raid is trivial for that level of skilled player. Even cycling in alts will only delay things slightly as any sensible raid group will maintain a majority of what are now overgeared players to ensure success and maximise rewards/minimise time.

 

So ultimately all it does is delay the inevitable - and given how fast players get through content, it doesn't delay things by much. Having NiM content being able to be overgeared also significantly diminishes its appeal and is one of the reasons I don't bother with progression raiding in modern MMOs - the window of time during which it is a real challenge is simply too short and overgearing allows players to "pretend" to be progression raiders when they have neither the skill nor the mentality for it.

 

So Eric's announcement makes sense IF that is their philosophy. The main problem is that they didn't actually explain their philosophy and the rewards within the current NiM system clearly aren't enough to keep people doing it.

 

SWTOR is my first and only MMO, so I have no frame of reference with regards to difficulty. Maybe it's because throughout the game's life my group wasn't one that would clear everything twice on a Tuesday, but I have always found Nightmare modes to be entertainingly difficult, and if the content became trivial and face-roll easy, or boring, I switched to a different class/role. So yes, raiding (and habit i guess) is the reason I keep my subscription. Maybe other MMOs have harder and better raids but I no longer have the time to invest into creating an empire of characters, find a proper group and create a nice network of friends on another game. And where do i get a lightsaber on another MMO?

 

That logic you see, from my point of view, is flawed. If Highlighted HM drops 224 gear, and NiM is tuned to require 224 gear, what's the point of having NiM drop any sort of gear at all? What's the point of the existence of gear in the first place? Might as well turn us into companions.

 

My main concern about NiM not dropping 224 loot isn't because I need 224 loot. All of us here complaining are probably BiS already after mindlessly farming HHMs for 4 weeks. It's the principle of the thing. BW itself has been going on and on about how important rewards are to players, and it is true. The hardest content available, no matter how easy you perceive it to be, should provide the better rewards. Mounts and titles are a one time reward, which thanks to the lack of foresight of the original devs are trivial. Non BiS gear is not a reward, it almost feels like a punishment even. A percentage based chance to get BiS gear is absurd. People will still pick doing HHMs a million times over, unless that percentage is very, very high.

 

If i didn't know how the market worked I'd at the very least be asking for NiM to drop unique cool armor shells that are more than reskins with shiny lights, but obviously that amount of resources are not going to be dedicated to such a small percentage of players. A second, just as silly idea would be to reward cartel coins. Economically not viable obviously, so it's off the table. All we can realistically expect as a proper reward is proper gear, and we're not getting that anymore it seems.

[Khevar]

But, and I mean no disrespect nor do I wish to start a fight, SWTOR isn't and has never been a hardcore raiding environment. Throughout its history it has been, at best (in that regard) "somewhat difficult", so i get really confused when people state they are leaving due to anything at all related to NiM ops - because they weren't a reason to stay in the first place for any serious raider.

While I cannot speak for anyone else, for me this is less about "bad rewards for NM" and more about "weird developer decisions"

 

2012-2013 was (at lest for myself and the people I played with) the "golden age" of group content for SWTOR. We played the gear grind because in this game because we all liked Star Wars, we liked dealing with the mechanics of group content, and we liked getting in vent and talking while we played. There were (relatively) frequent content updates, and there were interesting things to do most of the time.

 

Since then, a number of things have happened. Dramatically lessened pace of group content. Egregious exploiting going on for far too long. Announcement of no new NM ops ever. No new group content (other than quasi-group content Star Fortress) for 4.0. And to date, no details given of upcoming group content.

 

Then just today, we're made privy to this design philosophy: "Easier content provides better rewards than more difficult content."

 

It's just a weird idea.

 

It's an indicator that the people in charge of making decisions about group content are at odds with people that ENJOY group content. Even people that have no intention to ever run NM content have responded in this (and the other thread) with a resounding "HUH?"

Edited December 7, 2015 by Khevar

[holmeskywalkr]

Well you still do for sure that why are you still here posting...

 

Little problem is there is not another SW game like this so.....

 

No i dont, im unsubbed for days still amused by people reaction, btw didnt know that post on a forum means we care about the game in question

 

leave the sw sphere for your own good

Edited December 7, 2015 by holmeskywalkr

[KyoMamoru]

I unsubbed. I left this letter to them, not like they'll read it. They are out of touch with their metrics and forum presence.

 

"Three terrible announcements in a two week period.

 

1) You hyped up what amounted to be a 'please stay sub for eight months to get a bonus chapter of content.'

 

2) You hyped up an insanely disappointing 4th year anniversary. Really, the basic stronghold for... 5 credits? It's normally 5k.

 

3) NIM will not drop 224 gear. It already lost the shells in the change. No reason to run it. I already have the old achievements. Couldn't even give us new ones?

 

4) No new Operation Content in over a year. You busted last content tier by allowing bugs to break the content/gear progression cycle.

 

5) There's undoubtedly a dupe glitch going on right now. 99x stacks of contracts and gifts. It's been happening for six weeks with no fix. The economy is all but destroyed.

 

6) Continued Nerfs to the Operative DPS class. Concealment is terrible, Lethality was finally doing well only to recieve a 150 dps drop in the most recent patch. Both of them have terrible AOE. In fact....

 

7) Carbine Burst is the most terrible move I've ever been forced to play with in an MMORPG, and I've been forced to use it due to the dot spread mechanic. You took away Orbital Strike, and left me with this? -.-

 

The most important part of an MMORPG for me is to log in and progress a character. I need a number to improve. I need a reason to care. You've taken all that away from me, and most of my guild members. Before this announcement we had 9 Progression Teams. I don't see that lasting."

 

I need to get off this crazy ride. =/

[g_land]

I wonder if this announcement counts as "unprecedented" cause that live stream sure as heck didn't!

[Sanglay]

I laughed when i read Eric's post, then I realized he was serious. I don't know how true this is for other nim raiders but I mostly play at this point because I enjoy raiding with my friends; more than I enjoy our "new content." This news will likely be the final nail in the coffin for what little we had left of the progression raiding scene. Hopefully my group decides on a game that we can all play together if we all decide to quit after this amazing new development.

 

Good luck if you still think the devs care about us after this :cool://

Edited December 7, 2015 by Sanglay

[auroroavalor]

I've been a staunch BW defender since launch, I love this game...

 

But I also consider myself a progression raider and I currently run in two raid groups and lead a third, there will be serious discussion tonight amongst the teams regarding unsubscribing.

 

 

It wouldn't surprise me if only three our four of us are left by the time 4.1 comes around.

[DTMHMK]

As someone who enjoys PvE and PvP who's played since Beta, I really feel like Bioware is really out of touch with the player base and has just given us the short end of the stick for far too long. Unfortunately, I think this is the final straw for me and the friends that I raid with, I'd recommend anyone who's feeling the same to check out either WoW, FFXIV, or Blade and Soul.

[RikuvonDrake]

Kappa Rewriting Edited December 8, 2015 by RikuvonDrake

[SHLOOMPA]

Yep, this game is heading in a direction that no longer holds my interest. I have been a loyal raider for years. I was disappointed with the news of 4.0 dropping with no new content but excited that the old operations would be brought up to level only to find out that NIM operations wouldn't be dropping 100% NIM loot....yet a highlighted HM op would drop NIM loot every week.....what a joke. Way to crap on your loyal raiding community.....we may not make up the majority of the people playing this game but I do know that we invest $ into it and in my case a lot of $. I would love to continue playing SWTOR but the continued efforts to destroy the raiding community by BW has finally pushed me over the edge. My sub is up this month and will not be renewed.

[thatPERSON]

well this sucks, i just purchased a 60 day sub card and than i see this thread 5 minutes after using it. i knew things were getting bad, but this is just ridiculous.

 

the main reason i bought the card was to spend some time online with the friends i had made over the years... most of them were hardcore raiders and some of them being in the better raiding guilds... now i might not be able to play with them because they may have unsubbed already!!!

Edited December 8, 2015 by thatPERSON

[Gyronamics]

Total horse**** being fed to us.

 

Some of us like gear and gear progression with legit challenge and the knowledge that you get rewarded with the best gear for killing the hardest content.

 

Who wants to run a NiM and get slapped in the face with a MAYBE it might drop and then MAYBE you can win the rolls against everyone else also interested in the gear.

 

This BS after we have EV and KP dropping 224 gear which we farmed the **** out of with many many many alt chars and hugely undermanned groups because it was pathetic content.

 

Now we are meant to stay for rehashed ancient content and total RNG chances of relevant loot while joke modes drop the best loot all the time.

 

Who the **** is saying they wanted that as endgame PVE content.

 

Aside from the obvious answer which was someone on the design team.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Gyronamics

[Lesheren]

"Hardmode" can be easily done with players who have no clue. And no gear (well. they have storymode gear... from previous expansion, lol), but it drops best pve gear in game. NiM maybe drops it while requires more afford and skill. The most stupid thing I've ever read on this forum.

 

Probably next patch tacticals will start dropping 228 and ranked warzones - MAYBE a few comms. Isn't it the same logic?

[ybdron]

/signed

[SootyTX]

SWTOR is my first and only MMO, so I have no frame of reference with regards to difficulty. Maybe it's because throughout the game's life my group wasn't one that would clear everything twice on a Tuesday, but I have always found Nightmare modes to be entertainingly difficult, and if the content became trivial and face-roll easy, or boring, I switched to a different class/role. So yes, raiding (and habit i guess) is the reason I keep my subscription. Maybe other MMOs have harder and better raids but I no longer have the time to invest into creating an empire of characters, find a proper group and create a nice network of friends on another game. And where do i get a lightsaber on another MMO?

 

That logic you see, from my point of view, is flawed. If Highlighted HM drops 224 gear, and NiM is tuned to require 224 gear, what's the point of having NiM drop any sort of gear at all? What's the point of the existence of gear in the first place? Might as well turn us into companions.

 

My main concern about NiM not dropping 224 loot isn't because I need 224 loot. All of us here complaining are probably BiS already after mindlessly farming HHMs for 4 weeks. It's the principle of the thing. BW itself has been going on and on about how important rewards are to players, and it is true. The hardest content available, no matter how easy you perceive it to be, should provide the better rewards. Mounts and titles are a one time reward, which thanks to the lack of foresight of the original devs are trivial. Non BiS gear is not a reward, it almost feels like a punishment even. A percentage based chance to get BiS gear is absurd. People will still pick doing HHMs a million times over, unless that percentage is very, very high.

 

If i didn't know how the market worked I'd at the very least be asking for NiM to drop unique cool armor shells that are more than reskins with shiny lights, but obviously that amount of resources are not going to be dedicated to such a small percentage of players. A second, just as silly idea would be to reward cartel coins. Economically not viable obviously, so it's off the table. All we can realistically expect as a proper reward is proper gear, and we're not getting that anymore it seems.

 

You make some very good points (although I think the ones about not dropping gear at all and being companions were, shall we say, exaggerations to make a point ).

 

As you have identified, despite not being experienced in other MMO raiding, SWTOR raiding is pretty short lived for any group of players with skill and/or experience. It was never designed to be an end game raiding game, has never pretended to be one - too few raids that are all pretty easy show that. At the top end have been NiM ops, which have had various iterations but the current stance appears to be that they are about bragging rights and unique rewards rather than best gear. I actually think your ideas about shells and cartel coins are absolutely valid and would be good additions.

 

As I stated before, the problem with awarding the next level of gear at NiM level is that it means you MUST make the op itself easier than that gear level requires. If the only place to get level 224 gear is NiM ops, you can't have those ops require 224 gear. Now, this assumes proper tuning but that is an achievable goal imo. If NiM ops require 220 gear but award 224 gear, they rapidly become easier and easier, until you get to the point that a full ops group in 224 steamrolls through it, easily carrying a few un-geared players to gear them up with little effort.

 

It doesn't really change the current situation at all, it just gives players a 'warm fuzzy' because they are getting gear from something called 'nightmare mode' instead of 'hard mode'. But that nightmare mode really isn't anymore, its 'slightly-harder-than-hard-mode mode' because its easy to overgear and therefore screw up the tuning.

 

Ultimately it comes down to expectations. If we, as players, want NiM ops to be, and remain, the ultimate level of difficulty, then we need to also accept that that means there cannot be a gear increase within them as that would make any meaningful difficulty tuning impossible. We should, though, expect suitable and worthwhile rewards if level gear isn't included, and that's where the SWTOR devs have fallen short by a long way. A couple of titles and mounts won't keep players interested for long.

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts after almost 16 years playing MMOs, mostly as what is now known as a progression raider.

[holmeskywalkr]

who cares of loot ffs

 

get over swtor for good if you like raiding

[MuskyBoy]

So can someone explain the reason for removing nim EV/KP now?

[benficakungfu]

Thanks bw been fun, only ever subbed to raid.

 

Now, can you please give acess to operations to f2p, also remove artifact authorizations?

Ill be happy then.

Lets go full on this bw dont stop.

[PulseRazor]

lol if this is all it was going to take to make you quit, you were on your way out anyway

[Gyronamics]

lol if this is all it was going to take to make you quit, you were on your way out anyway

 

You mean official confirmation that endgame PVE was not bugged but designed to be irrelevant?

 

Well aren't you observant that endgame PVE players find that quite final.

[Torvai]

lol if this is all it was going to take to make you quit, you were on your way out anyway

 

This is only the last terrible design decision in a long line of terrible decision. Not to mention the overly long periods without any new content.