NiM Loot Issue / Update

[xkcurtisx]

REALLY? You really need to reconsider difficulty vs. reward when it comes to operations. You scaled all operations to the same level for 4.0 but that doesn't mean they're anywhere near the same difficulty. Let's even forget 224 gear for a moment. HM Ravagers for example is way way harder than HM Eternity Vault, it makes no sense they should have the same rewards, gear or otherwise. It makes REALLY no sense that when the likes of EV or KP is highlighted, they have BETTER rewards than something that is way harder like HM ravagers, TOS or any nightmare. At the very least they should reward the same gear.

 

Veteran progression raiders got the shaft with 4.0, at least throw them a bone instead of giving them less rewards for doing the hardest content than you get for grinding the same hm operation multiple times a week.

 

At this point 4.0 gear progression is messed up. For now let nightmare (maybe except first boss or two in each op), aswell as hm revan, m&b, cora drop 224 gear. In 4.1 or 4.2 reset the gear progression with tiers more akind to this (just a rough idea):

 

220: SM EV, SM KP

224: HM EV, HM KP, All other SM's

228: HM EC, HM TFB, HM S&V, HM DF, HM DP, first boss of each nightmare op, first 3 in HM Rav and HM TOS

232: Highlighted HM, but 228 if it's EV or KP

236: Last 2 in HM Rav and HM TOS, all nightmare except first boss

 

this would actually be really good...

[ekwalizer]

This is the real issue. Your post has literally nothing to do with NiM content dropping 224 or not, you're just upset that no new raid content has been released. Nothing against your opinion, it is shared by the vast majority of the raiding community, but NiM dropping 224 isn't going to bring new content

 

But really, if all these people already have 224 from doing EV/KP HM, then who cares if NiM drops 224s? Are you going to gear up through NiM raids instead of running the HM 12 times on alts? The only real complaints have nothing to do with this post.

 

1) Highlighted hard modes are waaaay too easy if they will drop 224s. KP and EV at least should have been removed from the rotation. Most of them other than ToS/Rav could have used some buffs.

 

2) NiM Ops do not drop adequate rewards comparatively to the increase in difficulty, specifically when titles and mounts were not changed with 4.0. You should not get the same title today that someone 10 levels higher in gear 10 tiers higher than the Operation level got in September. There should be far more unique rewards dropping in these raids as rewards to replace gear.

 

3) Players want something new.

 

My post was in response to someone else's post, and their recommendation was "pretend" it is new content.

[Jadescythe]

You ever wonder why the first few bosses always drop the crappiest pieces? So that if players can only clear those first and second bosses then they get a ton of the crappiest pieces in the tier. Oh man, how horrible would it be if all of the ops groups were able to get 16 pairs of the same gloves over and over by doing only the first and second bosses.

 

All you need is 3 different enhancements to drop and every week you can replace the mod and enhancement in your gear. Armorings account for like 4 mastery and endurance? Surely one will drop a relic and an implant or earpiece. So you'll be short on MH/OH and some armorings without ever completing an operation.

 

But honestly, gear dropping in NiM isn't important to me. I'd much prefer 224 was required for NiM and you received non-gear rewards that were actually worth having for completion. The problem is that they will now drop neither gear nor an acceptable alternative.

[TUXs]

LOL at all these PVE kids not being able to comprehend this change. I am a PVP player and I completely understand this change, and from a financial perspective it makes 100% sense. PVP has been affected by this indifference for years (ranked 8v8 warzones). We're way ahead of you PVErs in understanding Bioware's thought process.

 

 

1. The actual skilled nightmare players that are left in this game are so small. Nothing they do will bring a majority of the ones who left back to this game
   
2. Bioware does not make money from these said Nightmare players. How much total percentage of the entire SWTOR population can clear a NiM boss? Less than 1%. How many "progression raiders" are still around when there's been NO NEW NIGHTMARE MODES since 2.x? Prob less than 0.1% of total population.
   
3. Bioware is prioritizing story. Story = Influx of Casuals.
   
4. Casuals don't want to do Nightmare mode ROFL. If I'm a casual, I keyboard turn and click, and run around in 98 level greens. Nightmare mode LOL, please, don't make me laugh. Nightmare mode LOL!
   
5. BUT WAIT. Casuals are self-entitled and want to feel powerful in the best gear the game can offer. Casuals want the best gear!!! What to do!?
   
6. Casuals can, however, do Hard Mode. How to keep casuals happy so the casuals keep the revenue stream going? Drop the best gear in highlighted HM. Durrrrr.
   

 

Economics 101 boys. EA and Bioware know EXACTLY what they're doing. The Ranked Arena scene faces the same challenges. Why? Because top tier Ranked Arena players are once again, 1% of the total population. To us top-tier PVP players, this is nothing new. It's funny that the top-tier PVE spectrum is now being affected.

Sadly, this is pretty much spot on.

[RiVaN_]

[AlixMV]

1. The actual skilled nightmare players that are left in this game are so small. Nothing they do will bring a majority of the ones who left back to this game
   
2. Bioware does not make money from these said Nightmare players. How much total percentage of the entire SWTOR population can clear a NiM boss? Less than 1%. How many "progression raiders" are still around when there's been NO NEW NIGHTMARE MODES since 2.x? Prob less than 0.1% of total population.
   
3. Bioware is prioritizing story. Story = Influx of Casuals.
   
4. Casuals don't want to do Nightmare mode ROFL. If I'm a casual, I keyboard turn and click and run around in 98 level greens. Nightmare mode LOL, please, don't make me laugh. Nightmare mode LOL. BUT WAIT. Casuals want to feel powerful in the best gear the game can offer. What to do!?
   
5. Casuals can, however, do Hard Mode. How to keep casuals happy so the casuals keep the revenue stream going? Drop the best gear in highlighted HM. Durrrrr.
   

 

Casuals don't necessarily stay casuals, but their shift in PVE philosophy certain paves the way to that.

 

lol Casuals doing HM. Even with the dumbed down mechanics and Bolster of 4.0 SMs, there are still groups wiping on it. HM still requires a level of dedication and skill that Casuals only here for the story aren't going to be able to achieve.

 

I used to be one of them, and the gear chase is part of what lured me down the path of progression. The best way to push a gamer into doing something is to put what the desire out of their reach and make them work for it. It makes achieving that much more rewarding.

[oofalong]

wish i could go back in time 4 years and tell myself to not bother with this game

 

Honestly, while I love the people I have met within the community I do sometimes wish I could do this.

[Wopr]

SWTOR was the drug.....KoTFE was the cure

[Jadescythe]

My post was in response to someone else's post, and their recommendation was "pretend" it is new content.

 

No, it was in response to me saying "think of it as a new raid" in terms of obtaining gear. In new ops, it's common for a group to be able to get through some beginning bosses without actually being able to complete it. Thus they keep gearing up off of the early bosses and the harder ones become easier as time goes on. At no time did I suggest you treat the game like the operations are new content or give BW credit for putting in new content.

[ybdron]

You say you listen to the players. You say you listen to the community. You are NOT listening to the PVE players in the game, who focuses on operations. How does it make sense to not have the hardest content dropping the best possible gear? Im fed up with Bioware's attitude towards the raiders and the PVE community.

[darthjanus]

LOL at all these PVE kids not being able to comprehend this change. I am a PVP player and I completely understand this change, and from a financial perspective it makes 100% sense. PVP has been affected by this indifference for years, we're way ahead of you PVE kids.

 

 

1. The actual skilled nightmare players that are left in this game are so small. Nothing they do will bring a majority of the ones who left back to this game
   
2. Bioware does not make money from these said Nightmare players. How much total percentage of the entire SWTOR population can clear a NiM boss? Less than 1%. How many "progression raiders" are still around when there's been NO NEW NIGHTMARE MODES since 2.x? Prob less than 0.1% of total population.
   
3. Bioware is prioritizing story. Story = Influx of Casuals.
   
4. Casuals don't want to do Nightmare mode ROFL. If I'm a casual, I keyboard turn and click and run around in 98 level greens. Nightmare mode LOL, please, don't make me laugh. Nightmare mode LOL. BUT WAIT. Casuals want to feel powerful in the best gear the game can offer. What to do!?
   
5. Casuals can, however, do Hard Mode. How to keep casuals happy so the casuals keep the revenue stream going? Drop the best gear in highlighted HM. Durrrrr.
   

 

Economics 101 boys. EA and Bioware know EXACTLY what they're doing. The Ranked Arena scene faces the same challenges. Why? Because top tier Ranked Arena players are once again, 1% of the total population. To us top-tier PVP players, this is nothing new. It's funny that the top-tier PVE spectrum is now being affected.

 

But the key thing you are missing is that there is no downside to offering 224 gear from Nim Ops. In fact, if all Nim bosses did drop 224 gear it would be more similar to the current PVP gearing situation. Currently, with PVP gearing you can earn the best gear by multiple avenues by doing both regular war zones and ranked matches. Ranked matches, which are the harder content, give you a greater reward. Unfortunately, BioWare's decision regarding NIM gearing, would be like winning a ranked match and then you *might* have a chance of winning any commendations at all.

 

We may disagree with BioWare's PVP gearing strategy (and I assume we do since it over rewards casual play), but the strategy does allow multiple methods of acquiring gear. This announced PVE gearing strategy does the opposite by restricting methods of acquiring gear.

[g_land]

4) I agree with a basic philosophy that we cannot have 4 raids that all drop the best gear in the game. If a guild puts those 4 raids on farm, the "grind" to full best-in-slot for the raid group is simply too quick, so the percentage thing does make some sense.

 

I am still not understanding why seems like an acceptable excuse as all that happens right now is that in two nights of raiding a week at two hour time periods, the HMs can be cleared at about 2-3 a night. Getting gear with NMs dropping 224s would be slower as NMs take more time than HMs to complete. Yes, you can get different token pieces in the same week but thats insignificant when the likes of EV and KP are the highlighted ops and you can have an entire raid group in half of their total needed gear in one week and get the other half for everyone the next week. The same amount of time is invested, just more HMs can be cleared in that time which means you gear up faster.

[Kaayna]

Here is something Bioware should listen to:

 

I have purchased 1-2 hypercrates per release for the last 2 years and (assuming the new one comes out tomorrow) I will not be purchasing any for the first time ever.

[FerkWork]

Agreed. ^dank post

 

feelsgood.jpg:rak_03:

[psikofunkster]

Yes, but I have still spoken with my wallet. My sub runs out on the 28th and it will not be renewed (as it has been manually cancelled) until the staff comes back to their senses. I paid for the time. Forum use comes with that. Other than being snarky I fail to see your point.

 

Well, let me clarify more, i'm also pissed off about all these "changes" pure stupidity man, also i would love to have the willing to leave this game forever because of that, still i'm here, can't leave it, and sorry but all the complainers here are still here too as subs of course.... we might threaten EA leaving this game and unsub but they just dont' care there are always new fishes around the corner....nobody here is essential...

Edited December 7, 2015 by psikofunkster

[revcrisis]

lol Casuals doing HM. Even with the dumbed down mechanics and Bolster of 4.0 SMs, there are still groups wiping on it. HM still requires a level of dedication and skill that Casuals only here for the story aren't going to be able to achieve.

 

Fair point, this is true. There should be 2 levels of Casuals. Helpless Casual and Aspiring Casual.

 

The Helpless Casual (HC) obviously keyboard turns and clicks. If they're a DPS spec, they run around in tank gear and stack defense. If they're a tank, they run around in all healing gear. They also don't equip certain gear spots just because. Relics are most likely empty or a matrix cube from years past. Color crystal slots are empty, of course. They don't even understand what buffs or debuffs are - they think those icons by their bar are code glitches in the game. "IS THAT THE MATRIX!?"

 

Now we make our way to the Aspiring Casual (AC). The Aspiring Casual may now mouse turn sometimes. He has some select abilities key bound. He actually assigns his utility points. He knows a little bit about gear itemizing and what stats to stack. He knows about buffs, but doesn't realize there's such things as debuffs also. He might even get the correct set of gear on the first try. He learns a bit, he actually has a passion for the game and learning more to become better. Maybe a month from now he'll join a guild which does HM operations.

 

And here boys, is where Bioware is placing their bets. The Aspiring Casual is what this game is currently targeted towards. It's all about grooming the casuals. Making these helpless casuals into aspiring casuals. Progress. Lifting them up. Making them great. I might even shed a tear.

Edited December 7, 2015 by revcrisis

[orangenkaiser]

Casuals don't necessarily stay casuals, but their shift in PVE philosophy certain paves the way to that.

 

lol Casuals doing HM. Even with the dumbed down mechanics and Bolster of 4.0 SMs, there are still groups wiping on it. HM still requires a level of dedication and skill that Casuals only here for the story aren't going to be able to achieve.

 

I used to be one of them, and the gear chase is part of what lured me down the path of progression. The best way to push a gamer into doing something is to put what the desire out of their reach and make them work for it. It makes achieving that much more rewarding.

 

Most of the "influx" of new players have already left. When kotfe came out, most of the servers were at heavy population the first week of release at prime time. Now it's back to be standard. KotFE was great, but there wasn't enough to hook people into staying. And now BW's decision making is pushing people away, people that have been playing this game for 3-4 years.

 

So if BW's new business model is to get random influx's of casuals who leave after a month, and paying subs who go f2p for a few months and then sub for a month, then go f2p for a few months again, this is definitely the way to do it.

[psikofunkster]

SWTOR was the drug.....KoTFE was the cure

 

he he almost but not yet, addiction is still strong here....

 

Its always regarding having a KP shot from time to time you know....

Edited December 7, 2015 by psikofunkster

[DakhathKilrathi]

Uh. I don't even run NiM ops, and I think this is stupid. Did someone forget how rewards are supposed to work? They're supposed to make the time and effort spent worth something. This isn't accomplishing that.

 

Once again, the team behind this game proves that they don't really understand the player base. Yes, hardcore raiders are a minority. No, that doesn't mean they should be getting worthless rewards. A chance at 224 and crappy mounts is not really an incentive.

[MillionsKNives]

All you need is 3 different enhancements to drop and every week you can replace the mod and enhancement in your gear. Armorings account for like 4 mastery and endurance? Surely one will drop a relic and an implant or earpiece. So you'll be short on MH/OH and some armorings without ever completing an operation.

 

But honestly, gear dropping in NiM isn't important to me. I'd much prefer 224 was required for NiM and you received non-gear rewards that were actually worth having for completion. The problem is that they will now drop neither gear nor an acceptable alternative.

 

Doesn't change the fact that it's easier, and you get better gear from doing easier content over and over, even if the NiM dropped 224. You could send a group into a bunch of different NiM ops, only clearing the first couple bosses and getting a bunch of the same pieces for the mods and enhancements. Or, you could send that group into the same HM over and over on alts and get all of the good gear that drops from the entire instance and mail it through legacy.

[GrandLordMenace]

 

It's almost like Rydarus and KBN were completely correct when they said the game needs proper content instead of more story if it's going to justify a subscription.

 

STORY IS FLAVOR MUTHER******************************

 

[Divona]

I think what Eric wanted to say is that NiM was not ment to be gearing purpose in 4.0

Basically with NiM they wanted to maybe give out titles/unique drops that only drop in this mode.

Their idea is that each week players keep looging into game and check what is priority operation and keep players busy each week.

 

Now this is great for casuals and those who play this game anyway, but progression ops guilds wanted to jump straight to NiM and were expecting guaranteed best loot. This is just how Bioware fails to communicate or actually does not explain BEFORE 4.0 hit live servers

 

Now we can only discuss why its good or bad choice after waiting for this clarification. Community was just expecting its a bug.

[Panegyrist]

Nightmare gear won't be a 100% drop in nightmare mode? In general I find myself defending everything about this game, but you guys are making it hard...

 

I mostly just want the mounts and decorations anyway (though the good decorations have been known to drop from SM a few times since 4.0), but still...

Edited December 7, 2015 by Panegyrist

[ekwalizer]

No, it was in response to me saying "think of it as a new raid" in terms of obtaining gear. In new ops, it's common for a group to be able to get through some beginning bosses without actually being able to complete it. Thus they keep gearing up off of the early bosses and the harder ones become easier as time goes on. At no time did I suggest you treat the game like the operations are new content or give BW credit for putting in new content.

 

Fair enough, I must have misread where you were going with that. My point remains, it is not a new raid. Even if I accepted your premise, which I don't:

on hard mode the first bosses drop Belt, Bracers, Implant.

second bosses: gloves, boots, relic

third bosses: ear, head, implant

 

And so on and so forth. It isn't like 1st Boss in KP drops belt, EV drops Bracers, EC drops boots, TFB drops legs, SnV drops hands, DF drops chest, DP drops head, Rav drops Offhand, ToS drops MH. That is the system you were describing, but that is not reality.

 

So, no, you cannot gear up by downing one tier of bosses at a time. I mean you could, but that would be about the silliest way to go about it.

 

Back in the olden days, NiM dropped the same loot as HM, just twice as much. Somewhere between TFB and Oricon NiM gained its own tier of loot. I'm not saying that is the best answer, but it does make sense that if you (in theory) need to be equipped with HM tier loot to do NiM tier content then NiM should reward better than HM.

[Jadescythe]

Doesn't change the fact that it's easier, and you get better gear from doing easier content over and over, even if the NiM dropped 224. You could send a group into a bunch of different NiM ops, only clearing the first couple bosses and getting a bunch of the same pieces for the mods and enhancements. Or, you could send that group into the same HM over and over on alts and get all of the good gear that drops from the entire instance and mail it through legacy.

 

I'm not disagreeing that the targeted HM may not have been the best idea, but giving out 224s in all NiM ops probably isn't the solution either.